We, veteran players

Xarc

CP system is good but can't really be applied to a mmo because it has a limit. And by definition, a mmo is supposed to have no time-limit/xp limit/etc

In other mmos, there's still the concept of increasing the lvl by XP and by exemple, in BDO, xp needed between lvl60 and 61 is really incredible, even for a korean game based on farming, I remember when I played it than there was some rare players with lvl62 and maybe lvl63 1 year ago. It's like saying in ESO we have rare people with cp 2000+, same xp needed maybe.

Gear limited to cp160 is maybe something Zenimax is looking for. Maybe a new system with gear/lvl will be found.

Actually, getting more XP when you're already at cp810 limit is useless but maybe one day, our XP will be usefull for something ? I mean, if i'm cp1300 actually, it's not like someone cp810 if we convert our XP.
But changing it without changing gear system looks useless since gear is scaled on our level.

in BDO there's also a nice system with gear duration, you can lose a piece of stuff by many ways. It's interesting to force players to make a choice, risking or farming tools to maximise their chances. Pure MMO strategy at this point.

It's a hard work but, even if we can make suggestions, it's not our job.

Deathlord92

daim wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Well this veteran player will be happy when they fix his nb they over nerf back in elsweyr.

And this was a direct results of "player feedback"

I have giving them plenty of good feedback in 2 different threads I have created and commented in other people’s threads what needs to be done about nb. I was simply letting the op know what would make me happy performance aside of course 🙂

paulychan

When it comes to games, I draw the line at absolute suckage, which the performance of this game has unfortunately surpassed

[snip]

[Edited to remove Inappropriate Content]

Anhedonie

As somebody who's been playing since beta, did every trial in vet/hm, has a 48 pvp rank character, I only want this *** game to work and not have insane lag spikes and broken mechanics.

UppGRAYxDD

Anhedonie wrote: »

As somebody who's been playing since beta, did every trial in vet/hm, has a 48 pvp rank character, I only want this *** game to work and not have insane lag spikes and broken mechanics.

Yup, was pushing 5 star on two characters... lost interest and motivation due to the latency/lag/dropped connection problems.

Let’s hope the new consoles bring ESO 2.
Let’s hope ZoS learns from their mistakes, and fortifies what made this game great in the first place.

And for those who ask: “ Who comes to the forums if they don’t even play the game anymore.” Well, mostly ppl like me who loved this playing this game, but in the end couldn’t live with the constant degradation of ESO’s performance and managerial direction.

Aloha

New players are welcoming because it is impossible to do really good Trial HM, Cyrodiil PvP. Now, ESO is just about narratives quest, focuses on solo RPG online, random group play with pledges, craft, skin, crownstore.

Since 2015, ESO is no more a MMORPG but a solo rpg online with group play contents for casual and not for HM.

Veteran and MMO players need more Hard content like Scalebreaker, vMol or new hard zone monsters, with GOOD PERFORMANCES SERVERS/CLIENT, FPS, Latency, no desynch.

karekiz

Press 1 if you refuse to pay for this expansion because of treatment of the actual endgame playerbase.

Sarousse

We veteran players are bored to buy new content where everything is 2 shotted.

asuitandtyb14_ESO

Iccotak wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

Xarcus wrote: »

stop making this game easy for idiots 1clic spammers

Agreed, but apparently the majority of the playerbase thinks it's fine as it is?!
Not sure how many players we lost because the game used to be a bit more challenging (and where they went)?

I' m fine with harder content but I am very much against raising the max useful CP bar.

LuxLunae wrote: »

CP stopped because essentially, the CP system is broken. It was a bad idea that was used to try and extend the feel of powering up.

I have a solution but like every human who has to embrace change, it will be tossed out the window.

ZOS is aware of the issue with CP power creep which is why they capped it.
They don’t want to release a band-aid, they want a solution for the long term.
This is the discussion they are having along with difficulty settings.

Seems like it has been a pretty lengthy discussion. How many months has it been?

Iccotak

Aloha wrote: »

New players are welcoming because it is impossible to do really good Trial HM, Cyrodiil PvP. Now, ESO is just about narratives quest, focuses on solo RPG online, random group play with pledges, craft, skin, crownstore.

Since 2015, ESO is no more a MMORPG but a solo rpg online with group play contents for casual and not for HM.

Veteran and MMO players need more Hard content like Scalebreaker, vMol or new hard zone monsters, with GOOD PERFORMANCES SERVERS/CLIENT, FPS, Latency, no desynch.

Problem is that the solo rpg part of the game is so boringly easy.
At least in the single player games I had difficulty options.

Blackwolfe5

Xarcus wrote: »

CP system is good but can't really be applied to a mmo because it has a limit. And by definition, a mmo is supposed to have no time-limit/xp limit/etc

There are tons and tons of mmos with a maxlvl and you can't really progress further levelwise once you reach the cap. I don't know where on earth you got the idea that "by definition an mmo is supposed to have no xp limit". There are usually ways of increasing your power though (mostly with better gear) but even that is limited in most mmo's.

Xarc

Blackwolfe5 wrote: »

Xarcus wrote: »

CP system is good but can't really be applied to a mmo because it has a limit. And by definition, a mmo is supposed to have no time-limit/xp limit/etc

There are tons and tons of mmos with a maxlvl and you can't really progress further levelwise once you reach the cap. I don't know where on earth you got the idea that "by definition an mmo is supposed to have no xp limit". There are usually ways of increasing your power though (mostly with better gear) but even that is limited in most mmo's.

If you have a XP limit, it's not a MMO, it's a game with a end, and it's called a solo game. No XP limit means the game can live years because players will never reach the end (there is no end).

mavfin

Xarcus wrote: »

If you have a XP limit, it's not a MMO, it's a game with a end, and it's called a solo game. No XP limit means the game can live years because players will never reach the end (there is no end).

WoW has a limit. Rift has a limit, and, yes, there is an end to the 'alternate advancement' trees. FFXIV has an end to XP, I believe. GW2 has a max level and max gear, and a point where XP doesn't help. BDO technically doesn't have a limit, but you have to grind forever to get past about 63ish.

Blackwolfe5

Xarcus wrote: »

Blackwolfe5 wrote: »

Xarcus wrote: »

CP system is good but can't really be applied to a mmo because it has a limit. And by definition, a mmo is supposed to have no time-limit/xp limit/etc

There are tons and tons of mmos with a maxlvl and you can't really progress further levelwise once you reach the cap. I don't know where on earth you got the idea that "by definition an mmo is supposed to have no xp limit". There are usually ways of increasing your power though (mostly with better gear) but even that is limited in most mmo's.

If you have a XP limit, it's not a MMO, it's a game with a end, and it's called a solo game. No XP limit means the game can live years because players will never reach the end (there is no end).

There are other ways to progress other than with xp. Gear being the most common one and most of the time there is a limit to the power you can attain, which might be raised with updates (like new raids) and expansions (levelcap increases). This is also why there are endgame activities such as raids or pvp, to offer things to do after reaching max level. Yes, group content. Group content =/= solo play. It's called Massively Multiplayer Online, not Endless Progression. You can have endless progression in singleplayer games. What makes an mmo an mmo is not necessarily about the content. It's about the people. Lots of people.

What people want out of an mmo, that's a completely different matter.

Xarc

Endless progression can take multiples forms. Actually in eso it's CP system and it is "paused" , waiting to find something better.

in a mmo, I think it's good when a player hasnt the feeling to have finished the game, even if he's trying to. We need more and more content, and the feeling to get stronger with new parameters (in eso, it's Sets, skill trees, jewelry and now mythics).

Jayroo

They nerf sets and aoe, highering the skill ceiling> people complain
They consider lowering the skill ceiling > people complain

don't get me wrong I think all the sets and mythic items are garbage if you don't pvp, and greymoor is a pointless and utter disappointment that only adds half assed drab storylines and with such a beautiful map its sad really.

But every time there is a complaint they address it in the next patch (which again makes no sense to not do in PTS). They are also starting to test things in terms of light attacks on a non-official pts server which they haven't done before in terms of pts. They're also doing a good job addressing server issues and the skill ceiling , hopefully that means a positive trend is happening

Aloha

Iccotak wrote: »

Aloha wrote: »

New players are welcoming because it is impossible to do really good Trial HM, Cyrodiil PvP. Now, ESO is just about narratives quest, focuses on solo RPG online, random group play with pledges, craft, skin, crownstore.

Since 2015, ESO is no more a MMORPG but a solo rpg online with group play contents for casual and not for HM.

Veteran and MMO players need more Hard content like Scalebreaker, vMol or new hard zone monsters, with GOOD PERFORMANCES SERVERS/CLIENT, FPS, Latency, no desynch.

Problem is that the solo rpg part of the game is so boringly easy.
At least in the single player games I had difficulty options.

Agreed :'(

I left game because performances are worse and devs doesn't care about playing with good gameplay and perf' !

Elsterchen

Lysette wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

Well, as a filthy casual veteran I dare to add my opion (well, actually none of you had any luck to stop me in the last 5 years ... soo, ... :

To me there is one thing that all veterans have in comon:
We worked for something in eso. We invested time, hardship and sometimes even tears to achieve something. That something may be very different for any given veteran, but the emotional experience bonded us to (aspects) of this game and (like it or not) each other.

New players won't get this experience, they open their wallets (wether real or virtual doesn't matter, its payment not work) or are pampered to skip emotions. Often its not even their fault, but it ruins a veterans game.

To me, thats what Zeni didn't take into mind. Even a handfull of activities of each kind that force every player to work, would be enough to satisfy both, veterans and new players. Ideas for this can be found in vast numbers within the forum...

ZOS isn't going to do that - now one does not even have to pick up skyshards with alts, if at least one character has picked up all skyshards of a zone, all the other alts can simply buy them from the crown store - so the game is going into the opposite direction of your suggestion. Trying to force people is suicide with so many MMOs in concurrence - be a little uncomfortable and you can close the doors very soon. why do you think we have daily login rewards and such - they need to keep us to not wander off - they won't try to force us to anything.

It would as well go against any knowledge about product life cycles - veterans are early adoptors, those can and will take hardship - those new to the game in the milk cow phase will certainly not, they want convenience and easy access to things.

Hi @Lysette as for ZOS's "doings", "undoings" or "never-ever"(-big fat promise!-) doings, we wont know. ZOS did all of the mentioned during the last years and we know they are capable of changing direction, if suitable for 180°, within weeks.

As for the mentioned life-cycle. There is one thing that is always forgotten (imo), a cycles order is (100% simplyfied) : Birth - Growing - Death. Games get born and they grow and their are tons of examples and stories about how to sucessfully make the transition from "born" to "grow". Eso has its own story in that account. BUT the transition from growth to death is (imo) is never really looked at. Despite an equally vast number of failed games.
The reasons officially mentioned seem never valid on second look: "technical problems", "players loosing interest/ bad reputation", "bad communication by management/developers", "to many other new shiny shiny things"... all of it boils down to: The game wasn't able to keep their engaged players.
The milk-cow-phase-players/supporters (thanks for that phrase btw.) are not engaged, they may be exited, loving, caring, trying and the loudest in game and on the forum, but engagement is not part of any description of that playerbase. Their interest is, correct me if I am wrong: short-lived.

I may be radical, but to me its perfectly logic to say: If as a game you loose your veterans, you may as well just shortcut to death and dig your own grave.

Lysette

Elsterchen wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

Well, as a filthy casual veteran I dare to add my opion (well, actually none of you had any luck to stop me in the last 5 years ... soo, ... :

To me there is one thing that all veterans have in comon:
We worked for something in eso. We invested time, hardship and sometimes even tears to achieve something. That something may be very different for any given veteran, but the emotional experience bonded us to (aspects) of this game and (like it or not) each other.

New players won't get this experience, they open their wallets (wether real or virtual doesn't matter, its payment not work) or are pampered to skip emotions. Often its not even their fault, but it ruins a veterans game.

To me, thats what Zeni didn't take into mind. Even a handfull of activities of each kind that force every player to work, would be enough to satisfy both, veterans and new players. Ideas for this can be found in vast numbers within the forum...

ZOS isn't going to do that - now one does not even have to pick up skyshards with alts, if at least one character has picked up all skyshards of a zone, all the other alts can simply buy them from the crown store - so the game is going into the opposite direction of your suggestion. Trying to force people is suicide with so many MMOs in concurrence - be a little uncomfortable and you can close the doors very soon. why do you think we have daily login rewards and such - they need to keep us to not wander off - they won't try to force us to anything.

It would as well go against any knowledge about product life cycles - veterans are early adoptors, those can and will take hardship - those new to the game in the milk cow phase will certainly not, they want convenience and easy access to things.

Hi @Lysette as for ZOS's "doings", "undoings" or "never-ever"(-big fat promise!-) doings, we wont know. ZOS did all of the mentioned during the last years and we know they are capable of changing direction, if suitable for 180°, within weeks.

As for the mentioned life-cycle. There is one thing that is always forgotten (imo), a cycles order is (100% simplyfied) : Birth - Growing - Death. Games get born and they grow and their are tons of examples and stories about how to sucessfully make the transition from "born" to "grow". Eso has its own story in that account. BUT the transition from growth to death is (imo) is never really looked at. Despite an equally vast number of failed games.
The reasons officially mentioned seem never valid on second look: "technical problems", "players loosing interest/ bad reputation", "bad communication by management/developers", "to many other new shiny shiny things"... all of it boils down to: The game wasn't able to keep their engaged players.
The milk-cow-phase-players/supporters (thanks for that phrase btw.) are not engaged, they may be exited, loving, caring, trying and the loudest in game and on the forum, but engagement is not part of any description of that playerbase. Their interest is, correct me if I am wrong: short-lived.

I may be radical, but to me its perfectly logic to say: If as a game you loose your veterans, you may as well just shortcut to death and dig your own grave.

ah i see, in english economy literature the 3rd phase of product life cycle is either called maturity or cash cow phase - and it is not unlike in the dairy industry - you keep your cows happy and they will provide you with mass amounts of milk. This isn't something not looked at - but common knowledge in economy. And ESO is now in it's cash cow phase, where you have to keep the majority happy - the time of early adopters is long over (vets) - growth phase has happened as well and now in the 3rd phase it is all about keeping the masses happy - those who do not have much yet and are willing to buy nearly everything.

vets have everything already and what they don't have they probably don't want - they are no longer the target group and to cater to them would be just wrong, if this means to alienate the target group during cash cow phase (i.e. casuals). Cash cow phase has to be as comfortable as possible,it is more about convenience because casuals aren't able to train many hours every day to be good at this game, they play for relaxation and recreation - and this has to be comfortable and convenient or they will go elsewhere where they get that. And ZOS is well aware of this and that is why the game has this direction - to make the most out of cash cow phase where the most money is.

And the notion of "players loosing interest" is a vet view on things - actually the beginner zones and most of the older zones are crowded at prime time - I've never seen them as crowded as currently before - looks much like a lot of casuals are very interested in playing ESO - just the opposite of what you think is happening.

Khenarthi

Loved your post, @Lysette - have an Insightful, though I wish I could give you 10 for that post alone...

As a "veteran" (early adopter) with a very casual playstyle, I am happy with the general direction of the game, and I hope ZOS can keep ESO going for a number of years. Sure, there are things I do not enjoy - DLC dungeons, trials - but the game offers so many other activities, I think it manages to keep all its players occupied doing what they enjoy.

Elwendryll

As a long time player, I'm glad it's faster to level up now. It makes it easier for me to fill my guild ranks. I can help fix the "inexperienced" part.

Some of the trial achievements we have are clearly meant for veteran players, and will be inaccessible for a long time to the vast majority of the playerbase. It's probably not getting them a lot of money, they still do it.

Lysette

Khenarthi wrote: »

Loved your post, @Lysette - have an Insightful, though I wish I could give you 10 for that post alone...

As a "veteran" (early adopter) with a very casual playstyle, I am happy with the general direction of the game, and I hope ZOS can keep ESO going for a number of years. Sure, there are things I do not enjoy - DLC dungeons, trials - but the game offers so many other activities, I think it manages to keep all its players occupied doing what they enjoy.

Thanks Khenarthi - in my mind ESO would still have more potential for growth, but it would require additional investments into server technology and I'm not seeing this happening yet. With TES6 still about 4 years out from now (educated rumours) they might eventually not deem this necessary anymore and just try to stretch out the cash cow phase instead - still the game has quite some years to go before it will slowly go into decline - the 4th phase of product life cycle - but even that 4th phase can last for many years to come. So the outlook is not bad at all.

PrimusNephilim

This veteran player would just be happy to have a lag free game

Lysette

I_am_Groot wrote: »

This veteran player would just be happy to have a lag free game

1am to 4am UTC is a pretty good time for that on PC EU - I do my questing and dungeon delving at those times.

Xarc

Lysette wrote: »

I_am_Groot wrote: »

This veteran player would just be happy to have a lag free game

1am to 4am UTC is a pretty good time for that on PC EU - I do my questing and dungeon delving at those times.

@Lysette very interesting posts above, thx for participating.

The problem on EU server is about primetime. When 90% of players are joining the server after work and before to sleep, between 6pm and 1am. People just want to play their game to relax after their working day and, cyrodiil by exemple is interesting with big groups, big armies.
When you 're a guildmaster, you decide activites at this hours (9pm-11pm), because you know your guildmates will be online at this hours.
And it causes huge lags we all know.
Cyrodiil is interesting for guilds at this hours because they have ennemies to fight, and things are all very dynamic. It's because people are online than some content are interesting, but it's because people are all online than lag is here too.

Are we in a dead end ?

Guyle

I would be happy if they could just fix the most basic of things in the game. Still running into load screens often enough in Cyrodil and encountering complete inability to use skills or even bar swap at times, that its impossible to take it seriously. There are *STILL* untargetable mobs in delves in Greymoor content. Its getting to the point where Im actively warning ppl not to start playing the game, because the light at the end of the tunnel just seems to be getting further and further away with every "performance" improvement/update. Because, seriously, why would they allow the game to go on as broken as it is? Thats obviously bad for business, so its looking like they simply cannot or dont know how to fix it.

Dusk_Coven

We can start to address the issue by removing Light Attack Weaving and all sorts of Animation Cancellation and play the game the way it was meant to before players found all these exploits to get a "fast paced game".

Sarousse wrote: »

We veteran players are bored to buy new content where everything is 2 shotted.

This is the "fast paced game" the exploits helped create. Good job.

Lysette

Xarcus wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I_am_Groot wrote: »

This veteran player would just be happy to have a lag free game

1am to 4am UTC is a pretty good time for that on PC EU - I do my questing and dungeon delving at those times.

@Lysette very interesting posts above, thx for participating.

The problem on EU server is about primetime. When 90% of players are joining the server after work and before to sleep, between 6pm and 1am. People just want to play their game to relax after their working day and, cyrodiil by exemple is interesting with big groups, big armies.
When you 're a guildmaster, you decide activites at this hours (9pm-11pm), because you know your guildmates will be online at this hours.
And it causes huge lags we all know.
Cyrodiil is interesting for guilds at this hours because they have ennemies to fight, and things are all very dynamic. It's because people are online than some content are interesting, but it's because people are all online than lag is here too.

Are we in a dead end ?

In my mind zones are overcrowded at prime time to the point that the server handling that zone and that phase gets overburdened. The solution to this would require to lower the amount of people in a zone phase which requires more server capacity to handle it, i.e. serious investment into server capacity and it doesn't look like ZOS is willing to do that.

So my personal solution is to not play at prime time - which grants me the chance to actually see what is going on in quest zones because there are no other players around and it feels like a single player rpg, game runs smoothly and enemies are still waiting for me and aren't dead on the ground on arrival. So there an actual quest waiting for me outside prime time.

As far as pvp content goes, my opinion is that it is pretty hopeless - ZOS isn't able to make big progress with performance and smaller progress is just absorbed by higher population which would as well increase once other players get to know that performance has improved - then more do pvp and in effect any progress made will be absorbed by higher player numbers and it will be the same as before - so yes, if ZOS isn't able to make big progress with performance it is in a dead end in pvp.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Xarcus wrote: »

Do not forget we're the core of the community.

Would you please explain what this statement is based upon ?
Thank you.

MartiniDaniels

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

We can start to address the issue by removing Light Attack Weaving and all sorts of Animation Cancellation and play the game the way it was meant to before players found all these exploits to get a "fast paced game".

Sarousse wrote: »

We veteran players are bored to buy new content where everything is 2 shotted.

This is the "fast paced game" the exploits helped create. Good job.

Those things are officially part of ESO and animation cancelling is legit part of majority of popular PVP games and AC is part of player's skill. You are just going against official ZOS statements and against well-established industry standards. If most popular games have animation cancelling = majority loves animation cancelling, deal with it. This is not an exploit, this is necessity to make games more immersive and natural to players. Humans are actually much faster then ESO engine limitations.

Just look at Bob Munden, he manages to shot 2 targets in less then 1 second, including time taking gun out from holster:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpvCZwoj3tE

I remember even in Witcher 3 devs were forced to add "alternative" movement response mode where you can cancel those "beautiful" animations half-way through, because too many players complained about it.