More Princesses...Really?

robertthebard

VoxAdActa wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Here's another possibility: It's an oft used trope in story telling. I'm not one to assign motive, although it seems you have taken that liberty here, so instead of jumping to "it's only because it's a strong female", I looked at the overall idea. Is it irony that you "don't like pulling IRL historical precedent", but then jump straight to IRL historical precedent for your argument for why someone would be tired of princesses? Your whole argument boils down to "men don't like strong women in video games/movies". Of course, when this narrative is challenged by successful franchises like Tomb Raider, or players like me, that just flip a coin, and have been flipping that coin since before this narrative raised it's ugly head to explain unsuccessful media, the argument then changes to "you're just whacking off to them in your mom's basement".

It's also important to note that I'm not assigning your motive, note the part I bolded in the above paragraph. I'm merely taking the advice you gave at the end, and "hammering it hard". Is what you postulate a motive for the OP? It could be, it could also be that they're tired of the trope. As I said, I'm not big on assigning motive, but that begs the question, why automatically assume the worst about someone, and then "hammer that home"?

I'm almost 40 years old, and never once in my life have I ever heard any man complain about "too many dudes in charge" in any story told on any media.

I've never heard "Damn, why is it every town has a guy in charge in this country?" or "The developers are just pandering to Redpill and MRAs by putting these men in important plot positions" or even "I don't mind men in the story, I just want them to be well-written!" from any dude in any of the 36 US states I've lived in.

Not once. Ever.

They only seem to make noise when women show up.

Maybe that's just some strange coincidence.

Just sayin'.

Alternatively, it could be that most of us just don't think about it? I don't care who's in charge, so long as they know their job. I've worked for men that didn't know their job, and they heard about it from me, just like a woman in the same position that didn't know her job would. I don't go to movies to see if they're following some prescribed dogma, nor do I play games looking for it. I partake in entertainment to be entertained, and the cast doesn't matter, if they're accomplishing the mission of entertaining me, no privilege involved, it's what I spent my money for, and what I expect to get for the investment. That's why I flip a coin where a character's gender can go either way. They don't have any particular strengths or weaknesses, so why bother being fussed about male or female?

That's why my initial post is a snarky commentary on the thread. Whether it's the trope, or an actual princess problem isn't my concern, I'm not looking for a reason to be offended, or to push an agenda. I just found the irony hilarious.

richo262

Faulgor wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

I can imagine the boardroom pitch for this one

"Okay guys, I got a really good idea. We have a kingdom in trouble, and we have a princess that will restore her kingdom and take the throne and avert a threat"

"Didn't we do this last year?"

"No, this time the menace will have wings or turn into a swarm of creatures with wings"

"Yeh, we did this last year, we also introduced a Necro, what are we going to do to compete with that?"

"Ummmm... a shovel"

I thought the Elyswer princess story was well written, it was about restoring a matriarch and it didn't feel like it was trying to score some sort of woke points in the process. Skyrim feels forced. Same story, but you'll notice pretty every quest hub has a woman in charge. Like ... that is statistically very unlikely. I noticed this because the prologue eluded to a potential clash of kings, and the trailers (along with being pumped up from an assassins creed trailer) made me think I was going to find Skyrims Ragnar Lothbrok and Lyris, Ragnar and myself were going to bash some vampire skulls.

Instead, every quest hub had a damsel in distress, every male nord (the few that I could find) was quick to announce he was either a bumbling idiot, a coward, simply die at your feet, or come across like a creep (Blackreach). It didn't feel like it was good story writing, like the writer was trying to push a sub narrative. The only character that didn't feel like some sort of generic trash was Lyris, pretty much the only part of the story I enjoyed.

Perhaps I just had high expectations because it is Skyrim, and because it fell well short of those I'm even harder on it.

I call it Girlmoor.

I noticed a preponderance of female characters in one quest and just thought "hugh, that's neat!", because that is somewhat a rarity even in ESO.

Thing is, it could actually work. You could make a Skyrim / Nord-themed DLC with a focus on women. After all, Kyne is effectively the head of their pantheon, along with Mara and Dibella the hearth gods are at least as important as Shor and Alduin in Nord mythology. They could have really leaned into that.
But they didn't. None of the plethora of women have a noteworthy connection to Nord culture (save for Old Mjolen, who expectedly became my favourite character), or develop any themes related to Skyrim and her (!) people. They seem like cardboard women with the sensibilities of a 21st century 1st world urbanite and just enough personality to carry the story in the necessary direction.
It doesn't feel like I'm playing a fantasy game of a strange land with a foreign culture. It feels contemporary. Which is about one of the worst things I can say about imagined worlds.

[Edit to remove inappropriate content]

I don't consider it a rarity in ESO, there are plenty of female characters that have substance, Naru, the entire IC Sewers, AD Queen, I could go on, and all these characters feel like they belong and are done well.

Skyrim however, I completely agree, it just feels out of place. They have proven they can make a woman focused story with Elsweyr that does not do this at all. They also made Els feel like the home of the Kitteys. The story was unique and you were there to assist a matriarch and her ascension to the throne, and it was great. Skyrim just completely failed to do any of this. It was > Go to Generic Strong Woman 1 > Go to Damsel > Go to Clever Woman > Go to Lesbian. I'm playing through this thinking. Where is the Nordic theme? Where is the grit from the trailers?

***SPOILER***
I felt the cringe coming on when the King was portrayed as a fool and the Queen portrayed as the sensible one like it was a standard sitcom. After the queen was assassinated I though, ohh this is going to snap the King out of it and he'd going to pick up arms! Now its going to get gritty. Instead it just lead to a very cheesy 'Scooby-doo' moment. AH HA! I'm the villain all along, and I would have gotten away with if it wasn't for you pesky kids.

My gripe is less to do with every quest hub being a woman in charge (although this does feel very out of place and forced), ESO has proven they can pull off a female centric story last year, and it was enjoyable, it is the poor writing, rehashed writing, little to none nordic theme, generic characters, the scooby doo moment, the lack of grit.

I'm hoping the 2nd story DLC will actually introduce grit, nordic culture, and perhaps if we are lucky a male nord that doesn't go out of his way to announce how much of a coward he is or introduce himself by dying at your feet.

kichwas

VoxAdActa wrote: »

I don't like pulling the "IRL historical precedent" card because that not only tends to derail the discussion, it validates part of the other person's premise: that somehow, the lack of women in leadership positions in a fantasy world makes some amount of sense based on a preponderance of male-centered real-world ancient counterparts.

What's actually going on here is that people will willingly suspend disbelief for: Dragons, lightning-teleportation, infinite arrows, unkillable bankers, elves, cat-people, and a demon lord dragging the world into hell with literal big chains and a pulley, but draw the line at chicks in charge if it happens more than once. THAT is where their suspension of disbelief breaks and they start whining about "muh realism". The question that needs to be hammered on is: "WHY?"

Why, in a world where evil critters form themselves out a blue jelly-like ooze every time they die to come back and menace us again, where a million people each hold 12 earth-shattering powers in the palms of their hands ready for use at any moment, WHY is it that "too many girls in the story" (even when they're not human and not in any way subject to IRL physical limitations doled out by gender) is where they want to get off the fantasy bus?

Hammer that. Hard. Because it has nothing to do with realism. Find the root.

Yep.

Misogynist bigots get exposed.

/thread

(it won't be, but it should be. Really all need to debate here ended with your post - because that is all that is going on here.


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Psiion

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