Godlike 1vX PvP equals broken game mechanics

MashmalloMan

out51d3r wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Everytime I watch a 1vX video I just think about how awful the X are. They make a ton of mistakes that I personally would hope not to. Thats the only reason 1vX is even possible, bad players. 2 good players will easily take out 1 good player. There's no way around that, no amount of meta sets will beat the odds of 2 to 1 on an even playing field.

For anybody that doubts this and chooses to believe things like op sets make the difference, consider this:

In a 1v4, the 1 probably has a pretty good build with resources something like this:
6-7k weapon/spellpower.
25k health.
1 ability per gcd.

The 4 probably has garbage builds with something like this:
2.5k weapon/spellpower(ie 10k for entire group)
15k health(ie 60k for entire group)
1 ability per gcd(ie 4 abilities per gcd for the group)

No matter how powerful the build on the 1, or even how garbage the builds on the X, the X in 1vX has WAY more resources at their disposal. They are using them TERRIBLY. Most importantly, they completely squandering their advantage on the abilities per gcd side.

Yeah, plus all it takes is 1 well timed dawnbreaker + shalks + whirling blades and those 4 people are dead. The player didn't burn their stun on the 4, they timed it to take them all out.

out51d3r

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Yeah, plus all it takes is 1 well timed dawnbreaker + shalks + whirling blades and those 4 people are dead. The player didn't burn their stun on the 4, they timed it to take them all out.

Yep. One of my peeves about this game is people focus way too much on builds, and too little on how to actually play them. They want to believe the thing that seperates winning from losing is numbers. They want to believe watching youtoube for a few hours and using the same build will get them wins. Numbers help, but this isn't a single player RPG. If you want to win in PVP, you need to make better decisions than your opponent.

Deathlord92

I play stamblade depending on my mood I will either play a hit and run style take someone out and disappear or I will go for 1vx of course it depends on server performance to.

Relladen

This is why we can't have nice things. RIP animation canceling.

Everest_Lionheart

Haven’t touched Cyrodiil yet, but coming here to learn a few things. Some interesting insight here if you actually read what some people have written. Making a note of this thread because I’m coming to Cyrodiil soon.

Giljabrar

Literally the only thing I gathered from your post is that you dislike CC immunity.

Maybe, idk, play around it and cc people at good times instead of spamming it at them relentlessly?

Just a thought.

GeorgeBlack

You are right.
Eso is the only game in which one player can beat more than 2-3 enemies of the same character lv and gear lv.
Play as you want? Nope, here are 5 meta builds for you to choose from for the next 3 months.

Class identity? Nope, here's your 2h burst rotation and here is your SnB turtling rotation.

In addition those "organized groups" are a group of people spamming their assigned skill (for which they have min maxed) without aiming, while blindly following the crown.

Now dont be deluded, there wont be a discussion, just more L2p comments.

Furthermore, there arent any real quild goals or interaction with the world of the mmorpg. So PvP is either: castle zerging, small scale AP farming (very doon AP becomes totally useless) and solo BGs experience which is more boring than MOBAs.

MartiniDaniels

Also, many players just lazily bring their PVE toons without any adjustment, just to get their end of campaign reward. This is their purposeful choice - to come without PVP build or even without healing slotted, join random pug to PvDoor for few hours and then another purposeful choice - to start chasing 1vX-er around the tower or rock with that PVE toon, despite looking at their AR accumulated over years of coming for transmute reward - they know what will happen next.
So while some PVP players, especially new ones, just receive collateral damage from all of it (for example 1vX-er gets ton of free ultimate from killing those PVE-ers and then turns on that newbie with all the courage, Fury stacks and overflowing ultimate), majority of "victims" consciously go for this.

MartiniDaniels

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

You are right.
Eso is the only game in which one player can beat more than 2-3 enemies of the same character lv and gear lv.
Play as you want? Nope, here are 5 meta builds for you to choose from for the next 3 months.

Class identity? Nope, here's your 2h burst rotation and here is your SnB turtling rotation.

In addition those "organized groups" are a group of people spamming their assigned skill (for which they have min maxed) without aiming, while blindly following the crown.

Now dont be deluded, there wont be a discussion, just more L2p comments.

Furthermore, there arent any real quild goals or interaction with the world of the mmorpg. So PvP is either: castle zerging, small scale AP farming (very doon AP becomes totally useless) and solo BGs experience which is more boring than MOBAs.

You may still play solo. Yes, this is not easy because you are outnumbered 90% of the time, but that is certainly not boring. And Cyro is the only zone in the ESO which resembles real open world game. (Ok, Craglorn&Wrothgar to some extent too). Everything else in PVE is either small instances of dungeons/trials or small zones where you can sprint from corner to corner in few minutes, filled with ctrl-c ctrl-v 30k HP mobs and PoEs.

Bradyfjord

DracoSaggitaExSole wrote: »

I just have get this out of my chest... Sorry for any feelz i might hurt with it.

In my journey of learning to to play against players, study sets, watching youtube videos for several hours and playing in BG-s and Cyro for several hours i came to a conclusion. The PvP in ESO is broken, utterly un-enjoyable unless you do the same thing that certain players do that i seen in the videos. And before all of you reading me start smashing on the buttons of "git gud" "l2p" etc let me elaborate.

It is very simple. Build or copy a high mobility, high sustain, and high weapon damage build, you can easily do this, plenty out there. Run around objects to line of sight your opponents, since you can and thank the CC immunity, stealth, and insane amount of self heals, and constant roll dodge and the lack of their counters. pick couple of high damage skills and there you have it.

Just practice with it and you can be godlike too. Not because you are a good player, its because you exploit a broken PvP system in a game.

It is broken not because they exist in my opinion, it is utterly broken because the lack of counter to this recipe described above.

Yes learning to rotate your buffs, and learning the game, and have a tonn of experience plays a significant role in it. But after you have the learned these, and have the experience you become godlike because of the above mentioned broken PvP CC mechanics in the game.

There are good players in this game, but the game of PvP in this game is far from good.

And just a few things to get out of the way. I been playing games for 20 years. Seen a lot, did a lot. I can say that ESO have the most broken PvP system off the games I have had my hands on. If you don't follow the success recipe and play a certain way you are going to feed AP to the ones who follow the recipe.

This is my opinion and experience, you are free to have yours.

When did practicing and learning how to play a game become wrong? In every endeavor, it is likely that some people are better than others.

My opinion is that it is a game. It works the way it does, for better or worse. Your statement sounds to me like this:
"People that learn to play better are better than people who don't."

TL:DR: Like the old saying goes, "Learn to play."

Moonsorrow

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Your statement sounds to me like this:
"People that learn to play better are better than people who don't."

Well said and that is the truth.. some just wanna have all sorts of excuses and/or they demand changes to the game that would dumb it down even more so eventually to the point where always even having 1 more on other side means wins since skills would not, just numbers.

And at that point no one would be left playing since there would be no room to progress on skills, even the most total potatos would get bored when they realize they cannot improve to potato+ tier atleast.

And i say the word potato with much love, do not get triggered anyone.

MartiniDaniels

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Your statement sounds to me like this:
"People that learn to play better are better than people who don't."

Well said and that is the truth.. some just wanna have all sorts of excuses and/or they demand changes to the game that would dumb it down even more so eventually to the point where always even having 1 more on other side means wins since skills would not, just numbers.

And at that point no one would be left playing since there would be no room to progress on skills, even the most total potatos would get bored when they realize they cannot improve to potato+ tier atleast.

And i say the word potato with much love, do not get triggered anyone.

We are all just little potatoes

Damn, that sounds like a good name for new bosmer they are all rounded and roll around

pieratsos

DracoSaggitaExSole wrote: »

I just have get this out of my chest... Sorry for any feelz i might hurt with it.

In my journey of learning to to play against players, study sets, watching youtube videos for several hours and playing in BG-s and Cyro for several hours i came to a conclusion. The PvP in ESO is broken, utterly un-enjoyable unless you do the same thing that certain players do that i seen in the videos. And before all of you reading me start smashing on the buttons of "git gud" "l2p" etc let me elaborate.

It is very simple. Build or copy a high mobility, high sustain, and high weapon damage build, you can easily do this, plenty out there. Run around objects to line of sight your opponents, since you can and thank the CC immunity, stealth, and insane amount of self heals, and constant roll dodge and the lack of their counters. pick couple of high damage skills and there you have it.

Just practice with it and you can be godlike too. Not because you are a good player, its because you exploit a broken PvP system in a game.

It is broken not because they exist in my opinion, it is utterly broken because the lack of counter to this recipe described above.

Yes learning to rotate your buffs, and learning the game, and have a tonn of experience plays a significant role in it. But after you have the learned these, and have the experience you become godlike because of the above mentioned broken PvP CC mechanics in the game.

There are good players in this game, but the game of PvP in this game is far from good.

And just a few things to get out of the way. I been playing games for 20 years. Seen a lot, did a lot. I can say that ESO have the most broken PvP system off the games I have had my hands on. If you don't follow the success recipe and play a certain way you are going to feed AP to the ones who follow the recipe.

This is my opinion and experience, you are free to have yours.

So what you are saying is that being rewarded and being successful after practicing, getting enough experience, becoming good and knowing the ins and outs of combat is broken. Wait wut?

Crixus8000

You can't throw a decent build on a potato and watch them 1vx, maybe in cp since it carries hard, but in no cp that isn't going to happen.

And there is a hardcounter for it, it's called actually knowing how to play the game. Don't chase down a single player in your 10 man group, not keeping up buffs and just spamming light attacks thinking it's a free win.

Cathexis

Good players? Must be cheat engine. There will be no good pvp'ers on our watch, crush them out. Everyone must be equal in a competitive environment.



You know what they say about stormtroopers:
They always miss.

Crixus8000 wrote: »

You can't throw a decent build on a potato and watch them 1vx, maybe in cp since it carries hard, but in no cp that isn't going to happen.

And there is a hardcounter for it, it's called actually knowing how to play the game. Don't chase down a single player in your 10 man group, not keeping up buffs and just spamming light attacks thinking it's a free win.

Truths never better spoken.

DracoSaggitaExSole

Reading through the comments and there is a lot of truth in it. I was doing my best to articulate the point i was trying to make. So let me share my thoughts.

Learning the PvP mechanics will make you a better player, I absolutely respect that, and salute the player who beat me with a well timed attack, a better maneuvering, and doing things faster. I strive to be better at it every day myself.

What hurts my feelz is seeing some builds perform the following: I line up my DoT, and other damage abilities, attempt to stun when a delayed damage comes in and what happens next...
The break free, roll dodge, and heal back to full from LoS. Running like 2 times faster than me. I try to root, they roll dodge.

And some builds can do this endlessly. With light armor and limited stamina pool how am i suppose to keep up with that? Because these op dizzyingswingdawnbreakerwallhugging jack rabbit builds can do this all day all night.

So thats why i cam to the conclusion that some builds are exploits because they can just shrug off stuns, and snares, and with the high WD the can heal back to full in no time.

So my options with the light armor caster is either go for a dizzyingswingdawnbreakerwallhugging jack rabbit build or avoid fighting it. Because the kill me 3 times before i can stun them, or root them again.

Please folks understand this, I respect good PvP-ers, I strive to become one as well. I just wanted to express my feelz on a certain arc build type that is able to bypass most CC-s in the game and still dish out a crazy amount of damage and 2 other armor types cant keep up with it.

I would actually leave that the way it is, maybe make it where Roll Doge only deflects the first 1 or 2 attacks. What I would like to see is better tools, roots and snares to combat it.

Btw the stealth detect is weak, and mostly useless in this game. IMO

MartiniDaniels

DracoSaggitaExSole wrote: »

Reading through the comments and there is a lot of truth in it. I was doing my best to articulate the point i was trying to make. So let me share my thoughts.

Learning the PvP mechanics will make you a better player, I absolutely respect that, and salute the player who beat me with a well timed attack, a better maneuvering, and doing things faster. I strive to be better at it every day myself.

What hurts my feelz is seeing some builds perform the following: I line up my DoT, and other damage abilities, attempt to stun when a delayed damage comes in and what happens next...
The break free, roll dodge, and heal back to full from LoS. Running like 2 times faster than me. I try to root, they roll dodge.

And some builds can do this endlessly. With light armor and limited stamina pool how am i suppose to keep up with that? Because these op dizzyingswingdawnbreakerwallhugging jack rabbit builds can do this all day all night.

So thats why i cam to the conclusion that some builds are exploits because they can just shrug off stuns, and snares, and with the high WD the can heal back to full in no time.

So my options with the light armor caster is either go for a dizzyingswingdawnbreakerwallhugging jack rabbit build or avoid fighting it. Because the kill me 3 times before i can stun them, or root them again.

Please folks understand this, I respect good PvP-ers, I strive to become one as well. I just wanted to express my feelz on a certain arc build type that is able to bypass most CC-s in the game and still dish out a crazy amount of damage and 2 other armor types cant keep up with it.

I would actually leave that the way it is, maybe make it where Roll Doge only deflects the first 1 or 2 attacks. What I would like to see is better tools, roots and snares to combat it.

Btw the stealth detect is weak, and mostly useless in this game. IMO

It is almost impossible to kill experienced player in ESO without concentrated burst. While dots help to keep overall pressure, main damage should come in burst which takes 2-3 GCD. You can't roll-dodge like him, but you can use shields+class magicka abilities to protect yourself. First of all it depends on your class.

Pallio

The eternal balance dilemma, how to satisfy the the PVP whiners who died to something or other, without nerfing PVE people who could not care less about PVP.

Cathexis

Pallio wrote: »

The eternal balance dilemma, how to satisfy the the PVP whiners who died to something or other, without nerfing PVE people who could not care less about PVP.

Not really a problem, why are we trying to solve things for people who died in pvp when that's a fundamental element of pvp.
You aren't supposed to always live in pvp. There is suppose to be some inherent risk to engagement. If players can't die faster than they can be rez'd in pvp, then there is no competitive element to pvp (whether that is 1vX or XvX).

DracoSaggitaExSole

Pallio wrote: »

The eternal balance dilemma, how to satisfy the the PVP whiners who died to something or other, without nerfing PVE people who could not care less about PVP.

Last i checked had like 3.6k deaths on my kill counter, its been accumulating for a while. I am not whining about all of them, i die, i get back to the game, and try harder next time. It is part of it.

What I am expressing concern about is the the edge case builds that able to bypass CC mechanics consistently and and out sustain with high damage burst. And saying basically the CC, and CC avoidance mechanics in the game are favoring those builds. And the lack of counter play against it.

Have a mobile high sustain build like that, its fine. Why not it is a play style, but than the game mechanics should provide a counter play for it.

katorga

"Run around objects to line of sight your opponents, since you can and thank the CC immunity, stealth, and insane amount of self heals, and constant roll dodge and the lack of their counters. pick couple of high damage skills and there you have it."

So players move around. Players use terrain. Players heal themselves. Players do damage. That results in "broken" pvp?

DracoSaggitaExSole

katorga wrote: »

"Run around objects to line of sight your opponents, since you can and thank the CC immunity, stealth, and insane amount of self heals, and constant roll dodge and the lack of their counters. pick couple of high damage skills and there you have it."

So players move around. Players use terrain. Players heal themselves. Players do damage. That results in "broken" pvp?

Naturally not a problem, its how you play the game lol

If it can be exploited, meaning there is no sufficient counter to a certain aspect of the game than its broken. IMO

MartiniDaniels

DracoSaggitaExSole wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

"Run around objects to line of sight your opponents, since you can and thank the CC immunity, stealth, and insane amount of self heals, and constant roll dodge and the lack of their counters. pick couple of high damage skills and there you have it."

So players move around. Players use terrain. Players heal themselves. Players do damage. That results in "broken" pvp?

Naturally not a problem, its how you play the game lol

If it can be exploited, meaning there is no sufficient counter to a certain aspect of the game than its broken. IMO

There is sufficient counter. Burst. Your damage output should be sufficient to kill any other player, with exception of troll tanks in 3 seconds. Better in 2 seconds if class abilities allow this.

Fur_like_snow

DracoSaggitaExSole wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

"Run around objects to line of sight your opponents, since you can and thank the CC immunity, stealth, and insane amount of self heals, and constant roll dodge and the lack of their counters. pick couple of high damage skills and there you have it."

So players move around. Players use terrain. Players heal themselves. Players do damage. That results in "broken" pvp?

Naturally not a problem, its how you play the game lol

If it can be exploited, meaning there is no sufficient counter to a certain aspect of the game than its broken. IMO

The counter is called coordinated burst damage.

katorga

DracoSaggitaExSole wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

"Run around objects to line of sight your opponents, since you can and thank the CC immunity, stealth, and insane amount of self heals, and constant roll dodge and the lack of their counters. pick couple of high damage skills and there you have it."

So players move around. Players use terrain. Players heal themselves. Players do damage. That results in "broken" pvp?

Naturally not a problem, its how you play the game lol

If it can be exploited, meaning there is no sufficient counter to a certain aspect of the game than its broken. IMO

Everything in the game has a counter.

For the most part, all stamina builds are essentially equal - using the same sets, same skills, same tactics, same level of healing, same level of damage, same frequency of roll/block/sprint. The differences are barely measurable between race/class combos. Magicka builds are at a roughly 15% disadvantage to stamina.

CleymenZero

DracoSaggitaExSole wrote: »

I just have get this out of my chest... Sorry for any feelz i might hurt with it.

In my journey of learning to to play against players, study sets, watching youtube videos for several hours and playing in BG-s and Cyro for several hours i came to a conclusion. The PvP in ESO is broken, utterly un-enjoyable unless you do the same thing that certain players do that i seen in the videos. And before all of you reading me start smashing on the buttons of "git gud" "l2p" etc let me elaborate.

It is very simple. Build or copy a high mobility, high sustain, and high weapon damage build, you can easily do this, plenty out there. Run around objects to line of sight your opponents, since you can and thank the CC immunity, stealth, and insane amount of self heals, and constant roll dodge and the lack of their counters. pick couple of high damage skills and there you have it.

Just practice with it and you can be godlike too. Not because you are a good player, its because you exploit a broken PvP system in a game.

It is broken not because they exist in my opinion, it is utterly broken because the lack of counter to this recipe described above.

Yes learning to rotate your buffs, and learning the game, and have a tonn of experience plays a significant role in it. But after you have the learned these, and have the experience you become godlike because of the above mentioned broken PvP CC mechanics in the game.

There are good players in this game, but the game of PvP in this game is far from good.

And just a few things to get out of the way. I been playing games for 20 years. Seen a lot, did a lot. I can say that ESO have the most broken PvP system off the games I have had my hands on. If you don't follow the success recipe and play a certain way you are going to feed AP to the ones who follow the recipe.

This is my opinion and experience, you are free to have yours.

The reality of this game is that you can't 1vX decent players. Simply can't.

I come across those HC PvPers in Cyrodiil and I can def win 1 out of 3-4 matches but the moment there's more than one, they flatten out pretty fast. It's just not possible to 1vX good players.

In an be proved wrong but haven't met met much resistance when I've played with my good friend of mine. Overland is all that's left since they ripped BGs

out51d3r

DracoSaggitaExSole wrote: »

What I am expressing concern about is the the edge case builds that able to bypass CC mechanics consistently and and out sustain with high damage burst. And saying basically the CC, and CC avoidance mechanics in the game are favoring those builds. And the lack of counter play against it.

I'm going to point something out here: The problems you describe are not limited to 1vXers or their builds. They are even worse in zergs. Losing 1vX just triggers a certain emotional response: "This guy made me look incompetent. He's not playing fair". In a bigger fight, the exact same things are happening. You're just less likely to notice the specifics and/or more likely to blame it on enemy group size.

Self healing isn't the problem. Zerg healing is WAY worse. Healing in general is busted good, and the PVP meta has no choice but to form around that reality. If you're not building to take yourself from 0-100% in 3 seconds, and you're not building to take your enemy from 100%-0 in 3 seconds, you are doing it wrong.

I guess you could try to tackle the healing problem by improving CC, but do you really want to play the game you would get out of that? Breakfree is so good in this game because there is no cooldown on CC, including AOE CC. Aside from Breakfree, there's nothing stopping a single player from locking down entire groups continuously. I promise you, instead of running away, the 1vXers would simply prevent you from taking any actions at all instead.

VoxAdActa

I'm confused, OP. What specific things are you saying ZOS should change?

Because it sounds like you're advocating for the following:

1) No more CC immunity
2) Remove LOS obstacles from PvP areas
3) Nerf certain (unnamed) item sets in an unexplained manner to a vague degree
4) Balance the game so that there is no such thing as a meta.

I won't comment on the first three, but the last one is absolutely impossible. Even in real-life competition PvP, metas develop.

Compare UFC 1, which was as close to IRL Mortal Kombat as we'll ever get, to UFC 100; it didn't take long for "MMA" to become its own specific training regimen based around the RL meta of what works the best vs what doesn't work at all.

Compare Olympic fencing (foil) from the 1970's to the event in the 2000's, and you'll see the development of the "flick" meta, an attack that would be useless in the kind of duel foil is meant to represent, but which is the most effective attack under the sporting rules.

Any system of rules, even if that's just the systems of physics and body mechanics, leads to a meta that will eventually be discovered. It is impossible to design a system of any complexity level in which a meta does not exist.

DracoSaggitaExSole

VoxAdActa wrote: »

I'm confused, OP. What specific things are you saying ZOS should change?

Because it sounds like you're advocating for the following:

1) No more CC immunity
2) Remove LOS obstacles from PvP areas
3) Nerf certain (unnamed) item sets in an unexplained manner to a vague degree
4) Balance the game so that there is no such thing as a meta.

I won't comment on the first three, but the last one is absolutely impossible. Even in real-life competition PvP, metas develop.

Compare UFC 1, which was as close to IRL Mortal Kombat as we'll ever get, to UFC 100; it didn't take long for "MMA" to become its own specific training regimen based around the RL meta of what works the best vs what doesn't work at all.

Compare Olympic fencing (foil) from the 1970's to the event in the 2000's, and you'll see the development of the "flick" meta, an attack that would be useless in the kind of duel foil is meant to represent, but which is the most effective attack under the sporting rules.

Any system of rules, even if that's just the systems of physics and body mechanics, leads to a meta that will eventually be discovered. It is impossible to design a system of any complexity level in which a meta does not exist.

I was not advocating either of those that you described. You made them up in you mind...

VoxAdActa

DracoSaggitaExSole wrote: »

I was not advocating either of those that you described. You made them up in you mind...

Ok, now just so we're on the same page, in a couple of short paragraphs or less (because I'm dumb):

What ARE you arguing to change?