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Cloak - The most controversial skill in the game. How should it work?

MindOfTheSwarm
MindOfTheSwarm
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Nightblades in general are in a current state of identity crisis of which most of the community agrees. Of that there is no question. However, when it comes to NB's, there is one skill in their whole kit that repeatedly is the source of much contention and disagreement... CLOAK.
Some players argue that it is too strong and are calling for even more nerfs to the skill, whereas others are saying it is too easy to be revealed and too expensive to use, particularly on Stamblades. I asked myself, "Why is the community on one extreme or the other?" I have spent a long time thinking about this, and the only conclusion I keep coming back to again and again, is that the skill itself is not really doing what it should be doing.
So the question is, "What should cloak do and how should it work?" I think we as a community and ZOS need to come to some sort of agreement on this, otherwise its going to be a constant back and forth 'buff cloak, nerf cloak' argument that never ends. I propose a complete rework from the ground up on this ability, obviously I think that this should be done at the same time as a full NB rework as otherwise you run the risk of messing things up. With that being said I would like to pitch one direction that ZOS could take this ability and after explain my reasoning behind it. So here it is.

Shadow Cloak:

Cloak yourself in shadow to become permanently invisible. Attacking an enemy target, taking damage or reveal effects will break cloak. You cannot reactivate this ability for 8 seconds once cloak has been broken.

Shadowy Disguise:

When you activate this ability you cannot be revealed by outside effects for the first 2 seconds. Breaking invisibility with an attack will cause that attack to always be a Critical Strike. If you are below 25% health, the cool down of this ability is reduced by 4 seconds.

Dark Cloak:

Shroud yourself in protective shadow to heal for XX every 1 second, over 10 seconds. This portion of the ability scales off your highest resource. You gain Minor Protection while shrouded, reducing your damage taken by 8% and remove up to 2 negative effects. No longer has a cool down.


Things that break cloak:

1. Any damage attack or heal ability activated by the NB themselves.

2. Taking any direct AOE damage, damage from ground effects or enemy channeled damage effects.

3. Reveal effects from certain skills and NPC's with detection.


Things that do not break cloak:

1. Any damage over time or ground effect activated by a Nightblade BEFORE cloak activation.

2. Non- damage skills such as buffs and debuffs, examples include 'Mark Target, Grim Focus, Blur, Siphoning Strikes, Weakness to Elements, Momentum etc etc.'

3. Any direct damage over time effects on the NB applied before cloak activation EXCEPT the Burning Status effect.


Reasons for the above change:

1. Currently I believe the current contention is due to the ability being too spammy while also being too easily revealed the above change would remove its spammy nature while giving ample time to get out of trouble if used tactically and not out of panic.

2. The cool down reduction at 25% Health would be for emergencies but against good players would not be so useful as 25% health is easy to burst down in a 4 second window.

3. The Dark Cloak morph changed to scale with highest resource would make it an option for all builds and not just tanks. The cleanse makes it even more appealing and a viable alternative when losing the option of going stealth.


Conclusion: The nature of the ability would have changed, making it more of a setup ability to use while you get in position and buff up before opening on an unsuspecting target, while at the same time giving an opportunity for counter play from enemy players. You could argue that it ignores PVE, but having a permanent cloak would be great in PVE, allowing a player to move through areas without hindrance. Besides, Vampires are getting permanent cloak anyway so is this really going to hurt? This would separate cloak and make it stand out on its own and give NB's in general a little bit of the flavour they have lost.
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    OWLTHEMAD wrote: »
    Cloak is literally the one ability in the tool kit that doesnt need to change.
    Yep, it alredy has a lot of counters. In fact it would probably win a contest if you would ask:
    "What skill / ability in ESO has the highest count of hard counters ?"

    If something, the only change that could potentially be done is for the Dark Cloak. It would still have invisibility, but offer a defensive buff or speed buff. This would make this ability consistent, as Shadowy Disguise is an offensive morph, while Dark Cloak would be defensive morph.

    The burst-heal could go imho to other NB ability (one of Malevolent Offering morphs for example).

    Anyway, there are a couple of abilities in NB toolkit that 110% needs more attention & some love:
    - Mark Target
    - Consuming Darkness
    - Path of Darkness
    - Aspect of Terror
  • Vietfox
    Vietfox
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    People who complain about cloak are the same people who don't know how to pvp, simple as that. I've never seen, and honestly i can't imagine, a Grand Overlord complaining about it.
    Cloak is a defensive skill with several counters. If someone cloaks and you ran out of detect pots or something then that person might escape, that's it, while a stun that can't be dodged nor blocked, like Petrify, could potentially kill you.

    Idk about you, but i would rather face someone with cloak than with petrify.
    PS4 EU
    AD and PvP only
    Solo PvPer
  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
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    OWLTHEMAD wrote: »
    Cloak is literally the one ability in the tool kit that doesnt need to change.

    exactly
    cloak is fine and has been for seven years, it needs left alone.
    stop trying to destroy our stealth class.

    Edited by Gilvoth on May 23, 2020 7:41PM
    best in slot: is the armor, weapon, clothing look, pet, or no pet, jewelry, race, class, skill choices, amount of DPS, and skin color best fit to you and the way you wish to play and makes you feel good and performs what YOU think it should be.

    worst in slot: what you read in zone chat, and forum comment, and forum thread, and you tube video, and live streamer advice, and class rep advice, and guild chat advice, and whisper told you to wear, and use for skill, and dress like, and use for weapon and armor.
  • Firstmep
    Firstmep
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    I can't name another game where invisibility is so easily spammed in combat, but it's also countered so easily.
    I'm all for making dark cloak scale with highest resource, not everyone who plays night blade wants to be a sneaky assassin.
    I for one fell in love with the class back in the day, Beacuse I wanted to play a life drain warlock type character.
    Sadly that type of night blade is pretty hard to pull off atm.
    Edited by Firstmep on May 23, 2020 8:01PM
  • Fur_like_snow
    Fur_like_snow
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    Cloak is strong against bad players who don’t have a counter but very weak against groups or good players. Unfortunately as long as cloak exists you’ll probably never see any meaningful buffs to NB. Moving away from cloak is the best thing NBs could ask for their class.

    One solution would be to make cloak universal skill, maybe in vampire skill line or a new illusion skill line. Then give NBs something to replace cloak.
    Edited by Fur_like_snow on May 23, 2020 8:06PM
  • Tommy_The_Gun
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    Cloak is strong against bad players who don’t have a counter but very weak against groups or good players. Unfortunately as long as cloak exists you’ll probably never see any meaningful buffs to NB. Moving away from cloak is the best thing NBs could ask for their class.

    A lot of NBs already have moved slightly away from cloak. It is unreliable and bugged as hell. Now add all of the hard counters that this skill has. If you want to pvp as a NB & kill people, then you will be better of with brawler NB builds, rather than ganking from stealth.

    Paradoxically NB players who are slightly better & know PvP well, are the ones using brawler style builds. But then again, I might as well roll stam DK, stam Sorc, Templar, Warden or Necro to play like that. What is the point of playing stealthy - rogue class if you can not play stealthy effectively ?

    Sad truth is that nowadays, cloak invisibility based builds are more or less only good if you plan to avoid confrontation & only leach AP.
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on May 23, 2020 8:17PM
  • x48rph
    x48rph
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    Cloak is strong against bad players who don’t have a counter but very weak against groups or good players. Unfortunately as long as cloak exists you’ll probably never see any meaningful buffs to NB. Moving away from cloak is the best thing NBs could ask for their class.

    One solution would be to make cloak universal skill, maybe in vampire skill line or a new illusion skill line. Then give NBs something to replace cloak.

    Please, just no. ZOS already gave better versions of NB skills to every one, cloak is like last unique thing NB has left. I do agree that's it's thought too highly of. It's easy to break, doesn't offer that much advantage as people claim especially against veteran players but if you delete cloak from NB or give it to everyone, you might as well just delete the class. (it's almost dead now anyway)
  • Fur_like_snow
    Fur_like_snow
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    In oblivion my 2H wielding Orc warrior used illusion magic to some degree not much different than cloak in ESO. Now vampires can passively turn invisible. Other classes can use invisibility potions, like a sorc who streaks X3 then hits his pot. In many ways that’s better than a NB using cloak.

    You guys clutch at cloak like someone snatching your pearls because you think the class would disappear without it(no pun intended). But that’s my point, NB wouldn’t die off. Zeni would have to give NB something else to work with if cloak went universal. They would have to rebalance the toolkit. Open your minds guys this isn’t the same game from launch day they didn’t have wardens and Necros running around back then with all their crazy buffs and debuffs.

    If you want your class to be better ask ZeniMax to move away from cloak not doubling down on the BS.
    Edited by Fur_like_snow on May 23, 2020 8:29PM
  • actosh
    actosh
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    In oblivion my 2H wielding Orc warrior used illusion magic to some degree not much different than cloak in ESO. Now vampires can passively turn invisible. Other classes can use invisibility potions, like a sorc who streaks X3 then hits his pot. In many ways that’s better than a NB using cloak.

    You guys clutch at cloak like someone snatching your pearls because you think the class would disappear without it(no pun intended). But that’s my point, NB wouldn’t die off. Zeni would have to give NB something else to work with if cloak went universal. They would have to rebalance the toolkit. Open your minds guys this isn’t the same game from launch day they didn’t have wardens and Necros running around back then with all their crazy buffs and debuffs.

    If you want your class to be better ask ZeniMax to move away from cloak not doubling down on the BS.

    If we could get something usefull in return, like a good rework of most of the classes stuff, then i might agree.
  • OWLTHEMAD
    OWLTHEMAD
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    In oblivion my 2H wielding Orc warrior used illusion magic to some degree not much different than cloak in ESO. Now vampires can passively turn invisible. Other classes can use invisibility potions, like a sorc who streaks X3 then hits his pot. In many ways that’s better than a NB using cloak.

    You guys clutch at cloak like someone snatching your pearls because you think the class would disappear without it(no pun intended). But that’s my point, NB wouldn’t die off. Zeni would have to give NB something else to work with if cloak went universal. They would have to rebalance the toolkit. Open your minds guys this isn’t the same game from launch day they didn’t have wardens and Necros running around back then with all their crazy buffs and debuffs.

    If you want your class to be better ask ZeniMax to move away from cloak not doubling down on the BS.

    What your saying might more or less be true, but then it wouldnt be a nightblade, and then more or less half of us wouldnt play this game anymore.

    Cloak is not even close to being overpowered. Heck i dont even think its the noobs that are complaining about it. Its the mid teir guys who feel offended that their easy kill managed to escape. The same people who call nightblades the cowards class because for some reason a player escaping death just offends them so.

    Ironically those narrow escapes are half the fun of the class and the distraction power is immense.

    The true power of cloak is its ability to split a zerg group in half because its members cant stand to let a single piddly nightblade get away. Incidentally its those same players who get side tracked by the trolls who cry the loudest that cloak needs to be nerfed.
  • catnamedwill
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    OWLTHEMAD wrote: »
    In oblivion my 2H wielding Orc warrior used illusion magic to some degree not much different than cloak in ESO. Now vampires can passively turn invisible. Other classes can use invisibility potions, like a sorc who streaks X3 then hits his pot. In many ways that’s better than a NB using cloak.

    You guys clutch at cloak like someone snatching your pearls because you think the class would disappear without it(no pun intended). But that’s my point, NB wouldn’t die off. Zeni would have to give NB something else to work with if cloak went universal. They would have to rebalance the toolkit. Open your minds guys this isn’t the same game from launch day they didn’t have wardens and Necros running around back then with all their crazy buffs and debuffs.

    If you want your class to be better ask ZeniMax to move away from cloak not doubling down on the BS.

    What your saying might more or less be true, but then it wouldnt be a nightblade, and then more or less half of us wouldnt play this game anymore.

    Cloak is not even close to being overpowered. Heck i dont even think its the noobs that are complaining about it. Its the mid teir guys who feel offended that their easy kill managed to escape. The same people who call nightblades the cowards class because for some reason a player escaping death just offends them so.

    Ironically those narrow escapes are half the fun of the class and the distraction power is immense.

    The true power of cloak is its ability to split a zerg group in half because its members cant stand to let a single piddly nightblade get away. Incidentally its those same players who get side tracked by the trolls who cry the loudest that cloak needs to be nerfed.

    Exactly what's going on. No one really cries about the offensive capability of Cloak because from what I have seen, only very good players can take advantage of Cloak that way with the exception of snipers.

    THe vast majority of Cloak complaints come from people who feel they are denied a kill on an otherwise very squishy target. Even worse is when the same nb manages to kill them after multiple escapes.
  • daim
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    One solution would be to make cloak universal skill, maybe in vampire skill line or a new illusion skill line. Then give NBs something to replace cloak.

    I have even better solution and it could even include that streak-cloak combo. Lets make all skills universal, and then remove all other but 10 top skills. Then we can finally have peace. A true balance. And we wouldn't even need to cry about nerfs anymore.
    ""I am that which grips the heart in fright, hearkens night and silences the light." It was written on my sword, long…long ago." ―Ajunta Pall
    PC|EU
  • blkjag
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    When did cloak start working again?
  • x48rph
    x48rph
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    In oblivion my 2H wielding Orc warrior used illusion magic to some degree not much different than cloak in ESO. Now vampires can passively turn invisible. Other classes can use invisibility potions, like a sorc who streaks X3 then hits his pot. In many ways that’s better than a NB using cloak.

    You guys clutch at cloak like someone snatching your pearls because you think the class would disappear without it(no pun intended). But that’s my point, NB wouldn’t die off. Zeni would have to give NB something else to work with if cloak went universal. They would have to rebalance the toolkit. Open your minds guys this isn’t the same game from launch day they didn’t have wardens and Necros running around back then with all their crazy buffs and debuffs.

    If you want your class to be better ask ZeniMax to move away from cloak not doubling down on the BS.

    Except it would no longer be a nightblade. Cloak is a defining ability for the class. It's be like deleting streak from sorc. The class might still be there but there would be even less point in playing it then there is now. And I wouldn't trust Zeni to give it something better in return. We see how they roll. They already stripped the class of everything else and left it that way. They'd remove cloak and all we'd get would be some vague promise about balancing it "next patch" which will turn into "oops, next patch" and then "oops, sorry, despite what we said, we're not focusing on that this patch" .
  • Fur_like_snow
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    Illusion magic user /=/ NB.

    Anyone can use a pot for invisibility. Next patch vampires get invisibility from a passive. Your class defining feature isn’t unique to NB anymore.

    I will admit that they prob would mess up the new skill somehow but it’s fun to think about. :)
  • fred4
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    Nightblades in general are in a current state of identity crisis of which most of the community agrees. Of that there is no question. However, when it comes to NB's, there is one skill in their whole kit that repeatedly is the source of much contention and disagreement... CLOAK.
    Some players argue that it is too strong and are calling for even more nerfs to the skill, whereas others are saying it is too easy to be revealed and too expensive to use, particularly on Stamblades. I asked myself, "Why is the community on one extreme or the other?" I have spent a long time thinking about this, and the only conclusion I keep coming back to again and again, is that the skill itself is not really doing what it should be doing.
    So the question is, "What should cloak do and how should it work?" I think we as a community and ZOS need to come to some sort of agreement on this, otherwise its going to be a constant back and forth 'buff cloak, nerf cloak' argument that never ends. I propose a complete rework from the ground up on this ability, obviously I think that this should be done at the same time as a full NB rework as otherwise you run the risk of messing things up. With that being said I would like to pitch one direction that ZOS could take this ability and after explain my reasoning behind it. So here it is.

    Shadow Cloak:

    Cloak yourself in shadow to become permanently invisible. Attacking an enemy target, taking damage or reveal effects will break cloak. You cannot reactivate this ability for 8 seconds once cloak has been broken.

    Shadowy Disguise:

    When you activate this ability you cannot be revealed by outside effects for the first 2 seconds. Breaking invisibility with an attack will cause that attack to always be a Critical Strike. If you are below 25% health, the cool down of this ability is reduced by 4 seconds.

    Dark Cloak:

    Shroud yourself in protective shadow to heal for XX every 1 second, over 10 seconds. This portion of the ability scales off your highest resource. You gain Minor Protection while shrouded, reducing your damage taken by 8% and remove up to 2 negative effects. No longer has a cool down.


    Things that break cloak:

    1. Any damage attack or heal ability activated by the NB themselves.

    2. Taking any direct AOE damage, damage from ground effects or enemy channeled damage effects.

    3. Reveal effects from certain skills and NPC's with detection.


    Things that do not break cloak:

    1. Any damage over time or ground effect activated by a Nightblade BEFORE cloak activation.

    2. Non- damage skills such as buffs and debuffs, examples include 'Mark Target, Grim Focus, Blur, Siphoning Strikes, Weakness to Elements, Momentum etc etc.'

    3. Any direct damage over time effects on the NB applied before cloak activation EXCEPT the Burning Status effect.


    Reasons for the above change:

    1. Currently I believe the current contention is due to the ability being too spammy while also being too easily revealed the above change would remove its spammy nature while giving ample time to get out of trouble if used tactically and not out of panic.

    2. The cool down reduction at 25% Health would be for emergencies but against good players would not be so useful as 25% health is easy to burst down in a 4 second window.

    3. The Dark Cloak morph changed to scale with highest resource would make it an option for all builds and not just tanks. The cleanse makes it even more appealing and a viable alternative when losing the option of going stealth.


    Conclusion: The nature of the ability would have changed, making it more of a setup ability to use while you get in position and buff up before opening on an unsuspecting target, while at the same time giving an opportunity for counter play from enemy players. You could argue that it ignores PVE, but having a permanent cloak would be great in PVE, allowing a player to move through areas without hindrance. Besides, Vampires are getting permanent cloak anyway so is this really going to hurt? This would separate cloak and make it stand out on its own and give NB's in general a little bit of the flavour they have lost.
    I'm flabbergasted at this point why players think they can do better than ZOS when they propose complete reworks of a class or at least a major feature, such as Cloak. May I ask your credentials? Do you personally have problems with NBs?

    I've had a bit of time thinking about this too, due to another recent thread. By the way, I've played this game for 5 years, mostly in open world PvP. I am a magblade main, but I also play other classes. In my early days, as an inexperienced medium armor DK, I was frequently the victim of stamblade gankers. I have not forgotten that.

    My conclusion is that beating nightblades requires skills sufficiently different from fighting other classes that it initially eludes many players. I don't mean ESO skills, I mean general player skill and attitude. There were two undercurrents in the other thread. The first was "I'm a good player, I know how to fight other classes, but NBs are OP, because they cloak." I believe that is a conceit, but at the same time putting such people down as noobs is wrong. They simply haven't figured out what to do on their class and the mental shift you need to perform. I think some players find it hard to let the fight come to them and fight on the nightblade's terms.

    This leads to the second undercurrent: Bad attitude. Players are simply unwilling to deal with nightblades, because they find them annoying and they resent how nightblades seek to control the fight. Blaming that purely on Cloak is incidentally wrong. Better nightblades will use Shadow Image as well. It's the more powerful getaway tool. It can easily be confused with Cloak and I would not be surprised if some of the population that complains about detection methods not working got fooled by Shadow Image.

    Your proposals won't stop ganking. I don't know what the solution is. I think nightblades have been weakened and similar classes were invariably weakened in other games. Thus it seems no one has yet come up with a better solution. I'm kind of OK with that. I wish nightblade's damage / defense ratio was a little better outside of stealth than what it has fallen to, but that's about it.

    If you want to put a hard limit on Cloak by adding a cooldown, you also have to give NBs ways to better defend themselves outside of Cloak. This should be more than reminding them to use Shadow Image or is your plan to completely destroy NB? I play a perma-cloaking magblade. You really have no idea how squishy I am and how heavily I therefore rely on Cloak. I have nothing else. In a straight fight I am killed so quickly, it's not even funny. How casually you mention 4 seconds and 25% health in the same sentence. That's one second from death, because it's execute range.

    Your change really only targets magblades, by the way. Stamblades already have to mix it up. They cannot sustain Cloak. Would you care to monitor which type of nightblade it is that troubles you? I pay a heavy tax in sustain for my perma-cloaking magblade. It is a playstyle I enjoy. It is unique. I've elaborated on that elsewhere. It is not comparable with vampire in either PvE or PvP. It is weak in it's current state, but I'm happy with it. You seek to destroy my playstyle. Why? Because you're a bull in a china shop.

    If your Cloak changes were implemented, you'd have to give magblades something. I play magblade because I can perma-cloak. I do so in order to solo. I like the quality of life, the option of staying out of a fight altogether and of not being attacked by NPC guards. The latter cannot be achieved and sustained via any other form of stealth. Relieve me of that and what has magblade got going for it? You want to force me into a straight up magicka stacking shielding build? Sorc is better. Why would I play magblade?
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina DK, Magicka Warden, Magicka and Stamina Templar, Undecided Sorcerer (currently hybrid)
    PC EU (AD): Woodelf NB, currently magicka
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • MindOfTheSwarm
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    I think a lot of people replying have totally missed the point of what I was getting at. The above changes would not move the class away from the assassin style but toward it. If anything, the above changes are a flat buff not a nerf. Having 2 seconds of not being revealed is incredibly powerful. The proposed changes would just move the spammy nature of it. Having what essentially amounts to a buff being a spammable does not make sense period. Imagine if all buffs were like cloak, lasting 3 seconds. Grim Focus, Rally, Shields... people would be like wtf?
    Cloak SHOULD be permanent until it is broken, but then put on a cooldown. This without question moves the class CLOSER to the assassin playstyle not away from it. The class does not 'feel' like an assassin and as others have said, to PVP properly with NB's you are better off building a bruiser.

    Assassins are all about picking their target and ambushing stragglers or enemies in vulnerable positions. If anything I think Cloak in its current form is underpowered, so if you think I was complaining about it being OP think again. But a flat buff to its duration does nothing to address the fact that an ability which is effectively a self buff has to be refreshed every 3 seconds feels completely off. I have no issues with killing NB's and no issues getting kills as an NB, this is not what the post was about. It's about the ability being just for lack of a better word 'weird'. I can't think of any other example in any game where cloak effects need to be spammed in order to be maintained. Are you seriously telling me that you cannot handle a 8 or 4 seconds cool down without dying? Permanent cloak has so much to offer in return.

    I don't understand why many saw my above suggestion as a nerf. If anything, I think it is a buff but with a caveat of using the ability wisely instead of it being a crutch that half the time doesn't work anyway.

    I mean one option in addition would be that certain skills gain additional effects when used under Cloak, similar to Veiled Strike stun. Perhaps, Teleport Strike could Silence for 2 seconds this would offset the CD and double down on the 'Assassin' feel of the class.
  • OWLTHEMAD
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    What your describing feels, nay is, more like isolating nightblade even further than it already is into the the pure gank playstyle.

    It also makes cloak virtually worthless by the by.

    Its spammy nature at the disadvantage of being expensive is what makes cloak valuable. Being able to dip in and out of cloak in a brawl; defense via elusiveness and agility. Its definitive of the class.

    Its pretty clear at this point that you either do not play/main a nightblade, or you do not know how to play a nightblade.

    Its not all cloak cheese. And using cloak and shadow image effectively requires a tremendous amount of skill and practice. The skill is not over powered. The players who know how to use it are. But that can be said of all classes and their defining skills.

    Posts like these are what got wings ruined for dragon knights. Id like to not see our one remaining decent skill get the same treatment.
  • ExistingRug61
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    I tend to agree with the comments made by @fred4.

    My assessment of the OPs proposal is that it is a buff to some applications of cloak and a nerf to others. Personally, I think it takes cloak in a direction that would be problematic. I will admit this is partially because it doesn’t suit how I would want to use it, but I think it would also have significant balance issues. I will explain why by looking at individual parts of the proposal.

    1. Making cloak permanent until revealed/attack made. This would clearly be a buff, and one I think is unreasonable. Currently “perma-cloak” is only available to magblades with significant sustain investment. This comes at the cost of either damage or survivability, which I find reasonably balanced. If it was permanent it would mean you would suddenly have the possibility of max damage stamblades and magblades which “perma-cloak”, which I think would be unhealthy for the game and only encourage ganking. The only way to avoid this would be to have a continuous resource drain while active, but that’s basically how cloak is right now.

    2. Making cloak unbreakable for a few seconds. Again, clearly a buff. Maybe ok, but also likely make cloak too effective. I mean, with only moderate investment in speed, I think I would easily be able to get out of range of any and all detection methods in 2 seconds, and hence this would make this escape basically uncounterable.

    3. Adding a cool down after reveal. This is the nerf side of the proposal to to balance the two previous buff components. My issue with this is it really compromises cloaks ability to be used for other things like scouting, burning siege, running through keep and resource guards and other NPCs etc. In these cases either you only want to be out of cloak for a split second, or there are too many things that just reveal you despite cloak (NPCs and pets that attack you even when cloaked etc) and the only thing that makes it possible is that you can just cloak again straight away. These sort of out of combat but utility applications would no longer be possible, thus removing some of the unique capabilities that a nightblade a can bring to a group. I would also point out that all specific detection methods like mage light effectively already put a cool down on cloak as they prevent recloaking for a short duration This is the advantage these skills have over generic damage aoes in terms of cloak reveal.

    I must admit that as a nightblade main it feels a bit weird to be arguing against the buff parts of the proposal, but I just don’t think this is the sort of changes nightblade needs. Additionally, I am very against the nerf part (cooldown) so if that is required for this sort of change it is definitely a no from me.
  • fred4
    fred4
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    Cloak SHOULD be permanent until it is broken, but then put on a cooldown.
    Your opinion.
    This without question moves the class CLOSER to the assassin playstyle not away from it.
    What if I don't agree with your premise? The class is what it is. I don't care what you call it.
    The class does not 'feel' like an assassin and as others have said, to PVP properly with NB's you are better off building a bruiser.
    That is what ZOS have moved towards, possibly because Gilliam played a bruiser. Weird steps like the resistance buildup on Grim Focus explicitly moved it in that direction. You know why? Because stamblades WERE assassins. There were many players who built heavily into damage, because TTK was short and that made ganking viable. The players who only did that, who were powerful when they had Minor Berserk and Major Fracture and Defile, became shadows of themselves when I ran into them more recently. ZOS' nerfs worked and they were deliberate. The casuals have spoken: They don't want to be so easily assassinated.
    Assassins are all about picking their target and ambushing stragglers or enemies in vulnerable positions.
    But that is what any nightblade still does today, without problems, and will kill their target. I don't think that's where most nightblades feel they have a problem. Most complain about lack of 1v1 performance and of not fitting into BG metas. I suppose 2 seconds of guaranteed Cloak inside an AOE would help, but the NB won't have that, because she jumped into the fight from Cloak for the crit opener (and Caluurion in my case), then can't cloak to get out. She will need Shadow Image. She won't be able to dodge roll and rely on speed and Cloak, like I do.
    If anything I think Cloak in its current form is underpowered, so if you think I was complaining about it being OP think again.
    I certainly was not thinking that.

    I missed what you said about permanent Cloak from one cast. I still don't think I'd trade that. That is potentially a large buff to stamblades, the variant who needs buffs less. They can, and do, at least dodge roll for 4 or 8 seconds and they have other defenses. They have potentially good heals in Rally and Vigor. Magblade is really suffering in that department. I could build like a sorc or magden, stacking magicka. If I didn't need the sustain to spam Cloak, that might even be viable, but I don't know.

    It's not nearly as much of a buff for magblades, if at all. You can spam through a Hurricane and not be seen, because skills like Hurricane only pulse every one or two seconds and you immediately negate the uncloaking. There are also a bunch of edge cases, such as a projectile being in the air and hitting you after you just cloaked. Having to recloak after a Sorc Curse or Power of the Light just went off. Being hit with Streak, Lightning Form, Overwhelming Surge and, thus, permanently forced out in the open. That can be really bad already, healing and shielding tends to be so weak on magblade. Freeing up sustain that would otherwise go into Cloak is huge, but if it forces you into a Necropotence / Alfiq build, because nothing else is viable, that isn't great either.

    While making Cloak work is hard, it does have some advantages. It suppresses DOTs. I am secretly hoping that the lower healing meta, come Monday, may suit nightblade. Damage avoidance (and shielding) builds should have the easiest time with it.
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina DK, Magicka Warden, Magicka and Stamina Templar, Undecided Sorcerer (currently hybrid)
    PC EU (AD): Woodelf NB, currently magicka
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • fred4
    fred4
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    I forgot: Cloak is also a way to cancel Jesus beam and Zaan. See, this is the problem with proposing changes like this. You rely on ZOS to eventually iron out all these edge cases where a class was, in fact, previously thought out and balanced.

    I'll offer up, yet again, a clip of how my NB plays. This one seems to be my most popular. If I had to work with 8 second uncloaked windows, I couldn't do that fight. I'm too squishy for that. I couldn't assassinate those weak or under pressure players. Wasn't that the idea?

    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina DK, Magicka Warden, Magicka and Stamina Templar, Undecided Sorcerer (currently hybrid)
    PC EU (AD): Woodelf NB, currently magicka
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • fred4
    fred4
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    Here's another problem. Healing Ward and Regen currently uncloak you. So you believe ZOS will catch that one and adjust it? Or you're telling me I have to find a rock to hide behind so I can cast my healing out of sight, wait for 8 seconds, then reenter the fight? All the while stamblades can Rally, because that does not uncloak you? What if I want to top off resources with Meditate for a second? What if I want to use Purge to clean off sorc curses and the like? I have to wait 8 seconds to reenter cloak? No thank you.
    Edited by fred4 on May 24, 2020 3:24AM
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina DK, Magicka Warden, Magicka and Stamina Templar, Undecided Sorcerer (currently hybrid)
    PC EU (AD): Woodelf NB, currently magicka
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • MindOfTheSwarm
    MindOfTheSwarm
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    fred4 wrote: »
    Here's another problem. Healing Ward and Regen currently uncloak you. So you believe ZOS will catch that one and adjust it? Or you're telling me I have to find a rock to hide behind so I can cast my healing out of sight, wait for 8 seconds, then reenter the fight? All the while stamblades can Rally, because that does not uncloak you? What if I want to top off resources with Meditate for a second? What if I want to use Purge to clean off sorc curses and the like? I have to wait 8 seconds to reenter cloak? No thank you.

    I have given this a bit more thought and in retrospect I think your'e right. Existingrug61 pretty much nailed it on the head regarding its strengths, but he also pointed out some weaknesses that i took for granted such as burning siege equipment. So yes maybe we should leave things as they are.
    With that being said, I do wish to raise the issue of player who keep asking for nerfs to the duration or cost increases. Part of my suggestion was to address this by making it strong but in specific situations, alas I can see what would be lost in contrast. Hence my change in opinion. Yet, I do get worried when I read posts elsewhere that cry for it to be reduced to 2 seconds or some people even wanting it to be 1 second. Is the community doomed to be eternally divided on this?
  • Moonsorrow
    Moonsorrow
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    fred4 wrote: »
    Here's another problem. Healing Ward and Regen currently uncloak you. So you believe ZOS will catch that one and adjust it? Or you're telling me I have to find a rock to hide behind so I can cast my healing out of sight, wait for 8 seconds, then reenter the fight? All the while stamblades can Rally, because that does not uncloak you? What if I want to top off resources with Meditate for a second? What if I want to use Purge to clean off sorc curses and the like? I have to wait 8 seconds to reenter cloak? No thank you.

    This so much.

    And to the OP, leave my Cloak alone.

    To quote someone legendary: "Stop ruining my playstyle!"

    In fact i think Cloak should be BUFFED.

    There. I said it. Make it cost more (for obvious reasons) but give it 1 more second on duration. <3

    Also, since NB fear is now worse than universal Fear Evil skill that anyone can use.. give our Fear either Minor Breach & Fracture.. or.. make it give us 6 seconds of Minor Evasion. *dreamy eyes* o:)
    PC/EU
    Grey Host, mostly.. also Ravenwatch, IC & bgs
    Solo & small scale
    1300+ CP
    Baby don't hurt me!
  • MindOfTheSwarm
    MindOfTheSwarm
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    Moonsorrow wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    Here's another problem. Healing Ward and Regen currently uncloak you. So you believe ZOS will catch that one and adjust it? Or you're telling me I have to find a rock to hide behind so I can cast my healing out of sight, wait for 8 seconds, then reenter the fight? All the while stamblades can Rally, because that does not uncloak you? What if I want to top off resources with Meditate for a second? What if I want to use Purge to clean off sorc curses and the like? I have to wait 8 seconds to reenter cloak? No thank you.

    This so much.

    And to the OP, leave my Cloak alone.

    To quote someone legendary: "Stop ruining my playstyle!"

    In fact i think Cloak should be BUFFED.

    There. I said it. Make it cost more (for obvious reasons) but give it 1 more second on duration. <3

    Also, since NB fear is now worse than universal Fear Evil skill that anyone can use.. give our Fear either Minor Breach & Fracture.. or.. make it give us 6 seconds of Minor Evasion. *dreamy eyes* o:)

    Read the previous post. I did a U-turn on my suggestion and yes I want my 1 second extra duration.
  • actosh
    actosh
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    Loved the "purge 3 dots" cloak.
  • MindOfTheSwarm
    MindOfTheSwarm
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    actosh wrote: »
    Loved the "purge 3 dots" cloak.

    Agreed, but maybe not on the invis morph. Dark Cloak however.... I agree.
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    actosh wrote: »
    Loved the "purge 3 dots" cloak.

    Agreed, but maybe not on the invis morph. Dark Cloak however.... I agree.
    Dark cloak used to be exactly like that:
    - Base morph - Invisibility
    - Shadowy Disguise - Invisibility + Crit
    - Dark Cloak - Invisibility + purge

    Tbh. I liked when both morphs provided Invisibility. It was consistent. One was offensive morph, the other was defensive morph. They should revert it to exactly that. Maybe not negative effects removal on Dark Cloak, but some other defensive buff or speed buff etc.

    Burst heal should imho go to one of Malevolent Offering's morph.
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