Will a Developer Please Contribute to Dialogue About the Update 21 Wood Elf Racial Change?

Uryel

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

You know, ive never played a bosmer, nor does there racial status effect me any, but it is a fact that i have not seen anyone play a bosmer in any content since at least elsweyr.

I haven't, and never will, change my bosmer to another race. But I don't play her much either anymore. I don't play ESO much anymore, actually. And I don't spend much on ESO anymore, either. This is how good their racial change was for me. The racial change to Bosmers killed my interest in the game, simple as that. I still play, but not as often, and not as long as I used to. If my wife wasn't playing ESO, I probably would have stopped entirely.

I'm rediscovering turn based tactical RPG and having a blast. I'm rediscovering Guild Wars 2 and noticing how vastly superior to ESO it is in several technical aspects. Inverted foot kinematics were already present day 1 in GW2, and this game is several years older than ESO, for instance ; or simply there isn't any invisible wall anywhere bit at the edges of each map to avoid falling out of the world, and traversal is actually fun...

Also, the aforementioned game has separate balancing for skills depending on PvE and PvP, meaning you can adjust things for one crowd without being a problem for the other. Just saying.

Because that change to Bosmers ? It's pure PvP. There is not a single enemy in PvE that uses stealth, so "detect stealth" is useless in PvE, and I don't foresee the vampires in Greymoor sprinting around the map, invisible, to pounce us. The real new racial skill for Bosmers in PvE is "you get 3 free skill points". Seing that I already have 40+ unused skill points after mastering 3 weapons and 7 crafts, I don't think I need them.

I'm not one to care much about copying builds from the internet, but I gave a look at Alcast's recommandations for races, seing they are considered THE authority on builds. Bosmers is never cited as the best race for anything.

Bosmers needs stealth back, period. That won't make them competitive in any way, but at least they will be fun to play for thievery and whatnot again. It's not like we have two DLC revolving around stealth, right ? Also, lore. Since ESO happens 1000 years before Skyrim, and 800 years before Morrowind / Oblivion, roughly, the timeline can be summed up as follow : "Once Bosmers were stealthy, then they were not, then they were again".

Please, ZOS, correct that utter nonsense. Give us stealth back.

Uryel

Aznox wrote: »

I'll let anyone reading this thread make his own opinion of both your and my contributions

Maybe someone should open a tread about how useless Nords racials are to a PvE Stam DPS ?

Or why anyone would ever pick Imperial for a Mag PvE DPS ?

I'll stop toying with you now but please understand that exaggerations like this will not help convince anyone, especially not members of the balance team :

Wait, bosmer are playable? I thought they were removed from the game.

Nord racial passives are a disgrace for PvE stam DPS, allright, and that's an insult to Nords. Just like Altmers regenerating stamina instead of magicka is an insult to Altmers. But Nords still make for awesome tanks, tanks are warriors, Nords are great warriors, it kinda works. Altmers, while slightly more suited for PvP than before, retain some of their identity as the top mages. Stealth is one of the most defining characteristics of Bosmers in lore and in previous games, and it's gone. Replaced by something that has no value at all in PvE, and barely any in PvP.

My mag necromancer is an imperial. Wanna know why ? Because it fits the lore, because she has more HP and I don't have to spend any point on HP, because sustain, because I don't care much about how much damage I can do in a given time, but mostly about outliving enemies, and she can take several at once without breaking a sweat. Of course I don't engage in Trials and the like, where nitpickers will pout if they see an imperial mag necromancer coming and think "well, whelp, that's 2% DPS lost". Or whatever the actual figure is.

Point is, none of the mentions you made means anything about removing the feel of a race from the game. Nord warriors are now more tough than brutal, sucks a bit, but they're still warriors. Altmers mages now regenerate stamina, that sucks for PvE, but their other passives still make them great mages. Imperials are durable and have some sustain, that's not top notch, but it can fit some styles.

Bosmers, who were thieves, have been turned into guards.

If you wanted to speak about another race that got it real bad, should have mentionned the argonians. Every argonian and their mother in the game will tell you how they eat poison for breakfast. Dark Brotherhood has an argonian who litteraly had his tongue turn green from all the poison he eats daily. Yet they have no resistance to poison. The racial changes contradict the lore, contradict what characters say, and once more make no sense.

Now, it seems you approach the question from a more "stats / BiS / Meta" approach, which most of us who want Bosmers reverted to their true self don't care much about. I have 10 characters, I can easily have one fitted for every role I can think of. But my oldest, most beloved character, who also happens to be my master crafter, has been butchered, ripped from its most defining ability, stealth, which was the very reason it was created, 4 years after being created, because "people don't know what to chose between Khajiit and Bosmer" and "we want people to be more free to chose". That's ***.

At least, if they had admitted that nerf was to limit stealth bow builds in PvP, it would have been honest. But honesty isn't as defining a characteristic for ZOS as much as stealth was for Bosmers, and Bosmers aren't even stealthy anymore, so it's saying something.

HankTwo

Bosmer right now is a good race choice for any stam medium armor build in PvP, and a great choice if you run a (master) bow on the backbar. Overall I'd say the current version is much more useful in PvP than what the race offered before update 21. When it comes to PvE DPS, Bosmer afaik is pretty comparable to Redguard, Imperial and Khajit and definitely not worse than Nord. So most of the other classic elder scrolls stamina races aren't any better.

As far as racial identity is concerned the current passives also reflect most of the stuff bosmer had in previous elder scroll games apart from stealth and thievery:

dodge roll passive in general --> acrobatics and agility
it synergises well with medium armor --> medium in eso = light armor in previous elder scrolls games
the 10% speed bonus --> speed
and good synergy with bow hasty retreat passive --> archery
stamina regeneration --> agility
fall damage mitigation --> acrobatics
(extra bow experience --> archery)

I think the penetration and stealth detection are meant to represent the hunter archetype of Bosmers.

Overall the change removed the stealth part of the racial identity but introduced more acrobatics, agility and speed identity.

So yes, I get that thief role players hate that the stealth synergy got removed and it would be nice of ZOS to reintroduce some passive that reflects that playstyle, but some of the arguments ('Bosmer are useless and don't have anything that reflects their racial identity') are simply exaggerations. That being said, the current extra stealth detection would only be useful if it would stack with a skill like camoflaged hunter or detect pots, which afaik it doesn't do right now...

OWLTHEMAD

Aznox wrote: »

I'll let anyone reading this thread make his own opinion of both your and my contributions

Maybe someone should open a tread about how useless Nords racials are to a PvE Stam DPS ?

Or why anyone would ever pick Imperial for a Mag PvE DPS ?

I'll stop toying with you now but please understand that exaggerations like this will not help convince anyone, especially not members of the balance team :

Wait, bosmer are playable? I thought they were removed from the game.

Dude, its a joke lol. Humerous hyperbole.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Aznox wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

A month ago I racechanged my Orc stamsorc to Bosmer for PvP min-maxing reasons, so treads like this make me smile

You changed from Orc to Bosmer? Were the reasons that you specifically dont like to min/max?

As a stamsorc in no-CP PvP, Bosmer is mathematically superior to Orc for my current builds.

@Aznox

I can probably buy that in a very niche, no CP, rolly polly, PVP build. It would certainly have a higher skill threshold because you have to play the dodgeroll mini game to keep your buffs up, but admittedly, you probably dodge roll enough without thinking about it to keep up the buffs most of the time. That said, in the vast majority of content, for the vast majority of players, Orc is a much more compelling option.

Uryel

HankTwo wrote: »

So yes, I get that thief role players hate that the stealth synergy got removed

The heck are you talking about ? We have TWO entire DLCs revolving around stealth and sneaking around. Pickpocketing. Even achievements for picking many pockets. This isn't roleplay, mate, this is gameplay. And I'm not even mentionning having a stealthy character for faster traversal in tight areas when you can't be bothered fighting.

I personnaly don't give a rat's bottom about what people roleplay or don't roleplay, I'm talking about butchering gameplay for an entire race, YEARS after people created their characters, and often for the very reason to use the very same gameplay mechanics that has been butchered, effectively making that character worthless.

Unless one changes the character's identity entirely by switching to a furry race. I love Khajiits, I love their culture, their speech patterns, but there is a reason why I don't have any of my 10 characters being a Khajiit, and it's simply that I don't want to play a furry. Also, the cosmetics I bought, the houses I decorated, they were with specific characters in mind, not to be changed to something else entirely later on because on a whim some spreadsheet guy decided that they'd butcher 25 years of lore.

Now for the other things, the "acrobatics" was already reflected by the inate passive that gives Bosmer less fall damage. As for the hunter thing, well... Have you ever hunted ? Because it's not about detecting a stealth prey, it's about not being detected by the prey so they can't run away.

HankTwo

Uryel wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

So yes, I get that thief role players hate that the stealth synergy got removed

The heck are you talking about ? We have TWO entire DLCs revolving around stealth and sneaking around. Pickpocketing. Even achievements for picking many pockets. This isn't roleplay, mate, this is gameplay. And I'm not even mentionning having a stealthy character for faster traversal in tight areas when you can't be bothered fighting.

I personnaly don't give a rat's bottom about what people roleplay or don't roleplay, I'm talking about butchering gameplay for an entire race, YEARS after people created thair characters, and often for the very reason to use the very same gameplay mechanics that has been butchered, effectively making that character worthless.

Now for the other things, the "acrobatics" was already reflected by the inate passive that gives Bosmer less fall damage. As for the hunter thing, well... Have you ever hunted ? Because it's not about detecting a stealth prey, it's about not being detected by the prey so they can't run away.

I completed every stealth related achievement for both thieves guild and dark brotherhood on a heavy armor non-vampire nord DK without much trouble, so your argument that stealth gameplay like in the DLCs on a bosmer is butchered is - again - a big exaggeration, nothing more. You can always create a dedicated stealth build with 3 pieces of night terror, 4 pieces of darloc brae, and 5 pieces of night mothers embrace in full medium armor + vampire, on any class and any race. By that point your stealth radius becomes so small that it doesnt even freaking matter if you have an additional racial passive or not. According to the uesp build editor your stealth radius would even become flat out zero, nothing, nada, but I haven't tested this myself. So, if only gameplay concerns you simply adapt and not much changed.

And no, I haven't been hunting, but I doubt spotting is irrelevant unless you only do bait hunting. I have some experience going fishing and there spotting can be pretty essential for success. Edit: That sentence was only about me thinking why ZOS implemented this passive anyway, nothing more.

Taloros

HankTwo wrote: »

I completed every stealth related achievement for both thieves guild and dark brotherhood on a heavy armor non-vampire nord DK without much trouble

Cool stuff, bro.

I can see great without glasses. So, glasses are useless. And taking away somebody's glasses for absolutely no reason is absolutely okay for that reason.

Guys, gals, one can discuss how much the nerf hurt Bosmer characters. Of course one can compensate with more effort, other equipment or whatever. The aggravating point is not the extent of the nerf, but that there was a nerf in the first place. All was fine. Why even change it? Why introduce a highly specialized, untested, heavily pvp-centric mechanic that nobody asked for?
Why not take away the Orc speed bonus and replace it with a 10% damage bonus when attacking with a magicka ability at 25 meters or more just for giggles? One can argue about whether that's a useful ability or not, but one can hardly* argue it's just plain weird.

*Yes. Somebody will now feel the urge to say that a dodge-roll-speed-bonus is totally normal and not weird at all, because that person's cousin twice removed knows a guy who went to a Judo class where the teacher said that if you redirect the power of a fall or throw, you can use that energy to get back up again. Please, let's all just assume that happened already so that we can get on with our lives.

BlueRaven

HankTwo wrote: »

Bosmer right now is a good race choice for any stam medium armor build in PvP, and a great choice if you run a (master) bow on the backbar. Overall I'd say the current version is much more useful in PvP than what the race offered before update 21. When it comes to PvE DPS, Bosmer afaik is pretty comparable to Redguard, Imperial and Khajit and definitely not worse than Nord. So most of the other classic elder scrolls stamina races aren't any better.

As far as racial identity is concerned the current passives also reflect most of the stuff bosmer had in previous elder scroll games apart from stealth and thievery:

dodge roll passive in general --> acrobatics and agility
it synergises well with medium armor --> medium in eso = light armor in previous elder scrolls games
the 10% speed bonus --> speed
and good synergy with bow hasty retreat passive --> archery
stamina regeneration --> agility
fall damage mitigation --> acrobatics
(extra bow experience --> archery)

I think the penetration and stealth detection are meant to represent the hunter archetype of Bosmers.

Overall the change removed the stealth part of the racial identity but introduced more acrobatics, agility and speed identity.

So yes, I get that thief role players hate that the stealth synergy got removed and it would be nice of ZOS to reintroduce some passive that reflects that playstyle, but some of the arguments ('Bosmer are useless and don't have anything that reflects their racial identity') are simply exaggerations. That being said, the current extra stealth detection would only be useful if it would stack with a skill like camoflaged hunter or detect pots, which afaik it doesn't do right now...

I like how pvp players label everything not pvp as RP. Meanwhile using a magical staff to take over fantasy castles and fight other orcs and elves is super serious.

Stealing things makes serious gold. While you guys are complaining about snipe and cloak in another series of seemingly endless threads, I am making bank using stealth on my kahjit and stealing things to sell to other players.

idk

Zos clearly stated early last year that they would not be reviewing the racial passives unit they completed this process of implementing all these combat changes. Granted, it has been a long time but it makes sense to wait until all this is completed to see how all the passives are affected by these changes. They have reiterated since then that they will plan to do some tweaking of the passives.

BlueRaven

idk wrote: »

Zos clearly stated early last year that they would not be reviewing the racial passives unit they completed this process of implementing all these combat changes. Granted, it has been a long time but it makes sense to wait until all this is completed to see how all the passives are affected by these changes. They have reiterated since then that they will plan to do some tweaking of the passives.

They also clearly stated;

"Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1

Other systems? It's been over a year now, still waiting on those systems.

HankTwo

@Talrose

1) Nice straw man, where did I say that the stealth passive was useless? My whole point there was a specific reply to Uryel's argument, that this change butchered Bosmer stealth gameplay and made his character useless, which isn't the case if you can easily adapt with gear in the current version of the game (back then for example the darloc brae set didn't exist).

2) All was not fine, Bosmer before update 21 was shoehorned into a playstyle that was only viable for one out of back then five classes. Apart from nightblade, no other class had any meaningful way of utilizing the 10% extra damage from stealth in any actual combat. The racial rebalancing made this Bosmer combat passives much more accessible and generally more useful.

3) How is the dodge roll passive weird, gameplay wise speaking? If you dodge roll then you usually try to get away from a damage source, so the 10% extra speed helps you with that. Furthermore, it fits an already established game mechanic, the bow hasty retreat passive, and it synergizes well with medium armor. The only thing that you can argue is misplaced there is the penetration, so yeah, if you would ask me I'd agree that this should be seperated from the dodge roll mechanic and be constantly active (with possibly a slight nerf to ~ 1k maybe), simply to make it more easily accessible for PvE DPS.

4) Last but not least and as I already mentioned, the dodge roll + speed bonus passive matches a central theme of previous elder scrolls Bosmer racials pretty well: agility, acrobatics and speed. So again, how is this weird or in any way comparable to something like your hypothetical 25 meters magicka attack bonus for orcs?

5) My whole argument revolves around the hyperboles and exaggeration we always see in these kind of Bosmer threads. No, Bomser is not a useless race, and no, the stealth gameplay is not butchered to uselessness.

HankTwo

@BlueRaven

What I'm saying there is that strictly gameplay wise speaking, there should be almost no meaningful performance difference between a min-maxed Khajiit stealth build and a min-maxed Bosmer/non-Khajiit stealth build when it comes to NPC detection. So if stealth gameplay is what you care about the most, feel free to still play your Bosmer with the build I mentioned. There is no need to dump your character.*

Apart from that what can I say, it feels like ZOS just stopped caring altogether about what the community wants. In pretty much all regards. Sad.

*Edit: Well, there is that Khajiit pickpocket passive, but Bosmer had nothing like that even before update 21 and I haven't seen people complaining about it. Judging by that Khajiit were always a wee bit superior when it comes to thievery in this game.

x48rph

Aznox wrote: »

x48rph wrote: »

If your going to count the pen from roll dodge in the graph you need to include the cost of roll dodge as well

Not in PvP because a medium armor spec would be roll dodging every 6 sec anyway.

And this value calculation doesn't even takes the movespeed bonus into the equation, if you weight it against swift trait stat budget, you can make a case for Bosmer having even more value than Nord in PvP.

But this is obviously an end-game PvE thread, and i have absolutely no credentials to talk about end-game PvE, so i'll let you guy make your case in peace

All those stats get boosted and what not by other things as well but when your comparing the baseline stats that pen isn't free unlike say the weapon damage an orc gets, you got spend stamina to gain it that's why I said the cost should be factored in if the pen is as well.

MartiniDaniels

BlueRaven wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Bosmer right now is a good race choice for any stam medium armor build in PvP, and a great choice if you run a (master) bow on the backbar. Overall I'd say the current version is much more useful in PvP than what the race offered before update 21. When it comes to PvE DPS, Bosmer afaik is pretty comparable to Redguard, Imperial and Khajit and definitely not worse than Nord. So most of the other classic elder scrolls stamina races aren't any better.

As far as racial identity is concerned the current passives also reflect most of the stuff bosmer had in previous elder scroll games apart from stealth and thievery:

dodge roll passive in general --> acrobatics and agility
it synergises well with medium armor --> medium in eso = light armor in previous elder scrolls games
the 10% speed bonus --> speed
and good synergy with bow hasty retreat passive --> archery
stamina regeneration --> agility
fall damage mitigation --> acrobatics
(extra bow experience --> archery)

I think the penetration and stealth detection are meant to represent the hunter archetype of Bosmers.

Overall the change removed the stealth part of the racial identity but introduced more acrobatics, agility and speed identity.

So yes, I get that thief role players hate that the stealth synergy got removed and it would be nice of ZOS to reintroduce some passive that reflects that playstyle, but some of the arguments ('Bosmer are useless and don't have anything that reflects their racial identity') are simply exaggerations. That being said, the current extra stealth detection would only be useful if it would stack with a skill like camoflaged hunter or detect pots, which afaik it doesn't do right now...

I like how pvp players label everything not pvp as RP. Meanwhile using a magical staff to take over fantasy castles and fight other orcs and elves is super serious.

Stealing things makes serious gold. While you guys are complaining about snipe and cloak in another series of seemingly endless threads, I am making bank using stealth on my kahjit and stealing things to sell to other players.

I seriously doubt that stealing can give more income then crafting writs. Of course you can do both, but how fast you'll be tired of that? And while crafting writs require zero brain activity (you may do other things in parallel), thieving actually requires your attention to what happens on screen.

x48rph wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

x48rph wrote: »

If your going to count the pen from roll dodge in the graph you need to include the cost of roll dodge as well

Not in PvP because a medium armor spec would be roll dodging every 6 sec anyway.

And this value calculation doesn't even takes the movespeed bonus into the equation, if you weight it against swift trait stat budget, you can make a case for Bosmer having even more value than Nord in PvP.

But this is obviously an end-game PvE thread, and i have absolutely no credentials to talk about end-game PvE, so i'll let you guy make your case in peace

All those stats get boosted and what not by other things as well but when your comparing the baseline stats that pen isn't free unlike say the weapon damage an orc gets, you got spend stamina to gain it that's why I said the cost should be factored in if the pen is as well.

On many builds you will roll-dodge naturally on dodge fatigue cooldown, otherwise you'll simply die. Simply look at any agile build 1vX gameplay and count how often they roll-dodge.

Really, while there is definitely problem with lore consistency and bosmer (as well as other several races) needs some love (slight buff/change), new bosmer is much more versatile and viable then previous one.
What bosmer was before U21? BiS for gank sniping? Weaker version of redguard? Forced to run 2500 stamregen to match redguard proc recovery?

colossalvoids

x48rph wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

x48rph wrote: »

If your going to count the pen from roll dodge in the graph you need to include the cost of roll dodge as well

Not in PvP because a medium armor spec would be roll dodging every 6 sec anyway.

And this value calculation doesn't even takes the movespeed bonus into the equation, if you weight it against swift trait stat budget, you can make a case for Bosmer having even more value than Nord in PvP.

But this is obviously an end-game PvE thread, and i have absolutely no credentials to talk about end-game PvE, so i'll let you guy make your case in peace

All those stats get boosted and what not by other things as well but when your comparing the baseline stats that pen isn't free unlike say the weapon damage an orc gets, you got spend stamina to gain it that's why I said the cost should be factored in if the pen is as well.

You can't really compare orcs wpd and bosmer pen at all, orc 258 weapon damage is an equal bonus as bosmeri 258 stamina recovery. Extra pen is an icing on already awesome 10% speed you get after doing what you already should be doing anyway as it's one of the best defensive mechanics. You shouldn't have it permanently obviously but you can make it work in pvp if using medium armor.

BlueRaven

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Bosmer right now is a good race choice for any stam medium armor build in PvP, and a great choice if you run a (master) bow on the backbar. Overall I'd say the current version is much more useful in PvP than what the race offered before update 21. When it comes to PvE DPS, Bosmer afaik is pretty comparable to Redguard, Imperial and Khajit and definitely not worse than Nord. So most of the other classic elder scrolls stamina races aren't any better.

As far as racial identity is concerned the current passives also reflect most of the stuff bosmer had in previous elder scroll games apart from stealth and thievery:

dodge roll passive in general --> acrobatics and agility
it synergises well with medium armor --> medium in eso = light armor in previous elder scrolls games
the 10% speed bonus --> speed
and good synergy with bow hasty retreat passive --> archery
stamina regeneration --> agility
fall damage mitigation --> acrobatics
(extra bow experience --> archery)

I think the penetration and stealth detection are meant to represent the hunter archetype of Bosmers.

Overall the change removed the stealth part of the racial identity but introduced more acrobatics, agility and speed identity.

So yes, I get that thief role players hate that the stealth synergy got removed and it would be nice of ZOS to reintroduce some passive that reflects that playstyle, but some of the arguments ('Bosmer are useless and don't have anything that reflects their racial identity') are simply exaggerations. That being said, the current extra stealth detection would only be useful if it would stack with a skill like camoflaged hunter or detect pots, which afaik it doesn't do right now...

I like how pvp players label everything not pvp as RP. Meanwhile using a magical staff to take over fantasy castles and fight other orcs and elves is super serious.

Stealing things makes serious gold. While you guys are complaining about snipe and cloak in another series of seemingly endless threads, I am making bank using stealth on my kahjit and stealing things to sell to other players.

I seriously doubt that stealing can give more income then crafting writs. Of course you can do both, but how fast you'll be tired of that? And while crafting writs require zero brain activity (you may do other things in parallel), thieving actually requires your attention to what happens on screen.

x48rph wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

x48rph wrote: »

If your going to count the pen from roll dodge in the graph you need to include the cost of roll dodge as well

Not in PvP because a medium armor spec would be roll dodging every 6 sec anyway.

And this value calculation doesn't even takes the movespeed bonus into the equation, if you weight it against swift trait stat budget, you can make a case for Bosmer having even more value than Nord in PvP.

But this is obviously an end-game PvE thread, and i have absolutely no credentials to talk about end-game PvE, so i'll let you guy make your case in peace

All those stats get boosted and what not by other things as well but when your comparing the baseline stats that pen isn't free unlike say the weapon damage an orc gets, you got spend stamina to gain it that's why I said the cost should be factored in if the pen is as well.

On many builds you will roll-dodge naturally on dodge fatigue cooldown, otherwise you'll simply die. Simply look at any agile build 1vX gameplay and count how often they roll-dodge.

Really, while there is definitely problem with lore consistency and bosmer (as well as other several races) needs some love (slight buff/change), new bosmer is much more versatile and viable then previous one.
What bosmer was before U21? BiS for gank sniping? Weaker version of redguard? Forced to run 2500 stamregen to match redguard proc recovery?

Are you serious? Are you actually serious?
“ I seriously doubt that stealing can give more income then crafting writs.” Am I supposed to take anything you say seriously after this?

And then you go into something about pvp. /sigh

Here is some pvp numbers for you;

You have four pvp cyrodiil campaigns and you guys can barely keep ONE of them full, the rest 1-2 bars at most.

You have two IC campaigns and BOTH of them are empty.

And you have BGs where so few teams were playing in them they could not merit having teams at all due to balancing issues.

So few people pvp that they have all but abandoned making new content for it. They even gave away IC, guess it was not a big money maker.

You limit your scope to pvp only (which few people play), try opening the discussion to more then that narrow field.

Your arguments about constantly rolling is also pointless because doing that in trials is a net dps loss, plus a good way to roll into something that will get you killed.

And anyway this thread is about stealth. Not armor pen, not max stam, not stam regen. Stealth.

Can stealth detect be used in pve? It cannot. Ergo the stealth bonus (which was both used in pve and pvp) wood elves had before, is better then the stealth detect we have now.

Deathlord92

It would be nice if they either released a stealth skill line or buff the tg and db skill lines we Breton thieves/assassin exist 🙂 but I definitely understand why you bosmer fans are unhappy.

MartiniDaniels

BlueRaven wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Bosmer right now is a good race choice for any stam medium armor build in PvP, and a great choice if you run a (master) bow on the backbar. Overall I'd say the current version is much more useful in PvP than what the race offered before update 21. When it comes to PvE DPS, Bosmer afaik is pretty comparable to Redguard, Imperial and Khajit and definitely not worse than Nord. So most of the other classic elder scrolls stamina races aren't any better.

As far as racial identity is concerned the current passives also reflect most of the stuff bosmer had in previous elder scroll games apart from stealth and thievery:

dodge roll passive in general --> acrobatics and agility
it synergises well with medium armor --> medium in eso = light armor in previous elder scrolls games
the 10% speed bonus --> speed
and good synergy with bow hasty retreat passive --> archery
stamina regeneration --> agility
fall damage mitigation --> acrobatics
(extra bow experience --> archery)

I think the penetration and stealth detection are meant to represent the hunter archetype of Bosmers.

Overall the change removed the stealth part of the racial identity but introduced more acrobatics, agility and speed identity.

So yes, I get that thief role players hate that the stealth synergy got removed and it would be nice of ZOS to reintroduce some passive that reflects that playstyle, but some of the arguments ('Bosmer are useless and don't have anything that reflects their racial identity') are simply exaggerations. That being said, the current extra stealth detection would only be useful if it would stack with a skill like camoflaged hunter or detect pots, which afaik it doesn't do right now...

I like how pvp players label everything not pvp as RP. Meanwhile using a magical staff to take over fantasy castles and fight other orcs and elves is super serious.

Stealing things makes serious gold. While you guys are complaining about snipe and cloak in another series of seemingly endless threads, I am making bank using stealth on my kahjit and stealing things to sell to other players.

I seriously doubt that stealing can give more income then crafting writs. Of course you can do both, but how fast you'll be tired of that? And while crafting writs require zero brain activity (you may do other things in parallel), thieving actually requires your attention to what happens on screen.

x48rph wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

x48rph wrote: »

If your going to count the pen from roll dodge in the graph you need to include the cost of roll dodge as well

Not in PvP because a medium armor spec would be roll dodging every 6 sec anyway.

And this value calculation doesn't even takes the movespeed bonus into the equation, if you weight it against swift trait stat budget, you can make a case for Bosmer having even more value than Nord in PvP.

But this is obviously an end-game PvE thread, and i have absolutely no credentials to talk about end-game PvE, so i'll let you guy make your case in peace

All those stats get boosted and what not by other things as well but when your comparing the baseline stats that pen isn't free unlike say the weapon damage an orc gets, you got spend stamina to gain it that's why I said the cost should be factored in if the pen is as well.

On many builds you will roll-dodge naturally on dodge fatigue cooldown, otherwise you'll simply die. Simply look at any agile build 1vX gameplay and count how often they roll-dodge.

Really, while there is definitely problem with lore consistency and bosmer (as well as other several races) needs some love (slight buff/change), new bosmer is much more versatile and viable then previous one.
What bosmer was before U21? BiS for gank sniping? Weaker version of redguard? Forced to run 2500 stamregen to match redguard proc recovery?

Are you serious? Are you actually serious?
“ I seriously doubt that stealing can give more income then crafting writs.” Am I supposed to take anything you say seriously after this?

And then you go into something about pvp. /sigh

Here is some pvp numbers for you;

You have four pvp cyrodiil campaigns and you guys can barely keep ONE of them full, the rest 1-2 bars at most.

You have two IC campaigns and BOTH of them are empty.

And you have BGs where so few teams were playing in them they could not merit having teams at all due to balancing issues.

So few people pvp that they have all but abandoned making new content for it. They even gave away IC, guess it was not a big money maker.

You limit your scope to pvp only (which few people play), try opening the discussion to more then that narrow field.

Your arguments about constantly rolling is also pointless because doing that in trials is a net dps loss, plus a good way to roll into something that will get you killed.

And anyway this thread is about stealth. Not armor pen, not max stam, not stam regen. Stealth.

Can stealth detect be used in pve? It cannot. Ergo the stealth bonus (which was both used in pve and pvp) wood elves had before, is better then the stealth detect we have now.

It turned to discussion of pack of passives after somebody said that bosmer became useless after re-balance of racial passives. Which is untrue, from mathematical point of view.

As for the stealing vs crafting writs... crafting writs are roughly 100k per hour spent. Plz tell me what I may steal/pickpocket to have daily 100k per hour.

About campaign populations, they were pop-locked every evening even half-year ago. Now game simply became unplayable.

And like it was said numerous time, nothing prevents you to stack 3 existing stealth sets and you will have almost the same stealth as you had when there were bosmer passives + 2 stealth sets. And yes, khajiit was far superior to bosmer as thief even before, because on fully leveled legerdemain, +5% to pickpocket chance is massive difference in practice.

There were no parity between bosmer and khajiit, cats were always your best race if you want to steal most effectively.

BlueRaven

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Bosmer right now is a good race choice for any stam medium armor build in PvP, and a great choice if you run a (master) bow on the backbar. Overall I'd say the current version is much more useful in PvP than what the race offered before update 21. When it comes to PvE DPS, Bosmer afaik is pretty comparable to Redguard, Imperial and Khajit and definitely not worse than Nord. So most of the other classic elder scrolls stamina races aren't any better.

As far as racial identity is concerned the current passives also reflect most of the stuff bosmer had in previous elder scroll games apart from stealth and thievery:

dodge roll passive in general --> acrobatics and agility
it synergises well with medium armor --> medium in eso = light armor in previous elder scrolls games
the 10% speed bonus --> speed
and good synergy with bow hasty retreat passive --> archery
stamina regeneration --> agility
fall damage mitigation --> acrobatics
(extra bow experience --> archery)

I think the penetration and stealth detection are meant to represent the hunter archetype of Bosmers.

Overall the change removed the stealth part of the racial identity but introduced more acrobatics, agility and speed identity.

So yes, I get that thief role players hate that the stealth synergy got removed and it would be nice of ZOS to reintroduce some passive that reflects that playstyle, but some of the arguments ('Bosmer are useless and don't have anything that reflects their racial identity') are simply exaggerations. That being said, the current extra stealth detection would only be useful if it would stack with a skill like camoflaged hunter or detect pots, which afaik it doesn't do right now...

I like how pvp players label everything not pvp as RP. Meanwhile using a magical staff to take over fantasy castles and fight other orcs and elves is super serious.

Stealing things makes serious gold. While you guys are complaining about snipe and cloak in another series of seemingly endless threads, I am making bank using stealth on my kahjit and stealing things to sell to other players.

I seriously doubt that stealing can give more income then crafting writs. Of course you can do both, but how fast you'll be tired of that? And while crafting writs require zero brain activity (you may do other things in parallel), thieving actually requires your attention to what happens on screen.

x48rph wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

x48rph wrote: »

If your going to count the pen from roll dodge in the graph you need to include the cost of roll dodge as well

Not in PvP because a medium armor spec would be roll dodging every 6 sec anyway.

And this value calculation doesn't even takes the movespeed bonus into the equation, if you weight it against swift trait stat budget, you can make a case for Bosmer having even more value than Nord in PvP.

But this is obviously an end-game PvE thread, and i have absolutely no credentials to talk about end-game PvE, so i'll let you guy make your case in peace

All those stats get boosted and what not by other things as well but when your comparing the baseline stats that pen isn't free unlike say the weapon damage an orc gets, you got spend stamina to gain it that's why I said the cost should be factored in if the pen is as well.

On many builds you will roll-dodge naturally on dodge fatigue cooldown, otherwise you'll simply die. Simply look at any agile build 1vX gameplay and count how often they roll-dodge.

Really, while there is definitely problem with lore consistency and bosmer (as well as other several races) needs some love (slight buff/change), new bosmer is much more versatile and viable then previous one.
What bosmer was before U21? BiS for gank sniping? Weaker version of redguard? Forced to run 2500 stamregen to match redguard proc recovery?

Are you serious? Are you actually serious?
“ I seriously doubt that stealing can give more income then crafting writs.” Am I supposed to take anything you say seriously after this?

And then you go into something about pvp. /sigh

Here is some pvp numbers for you;

You have four pvp cyrodiil campaigns and you guys can barely keep ONE of them full, the rest 1-2 bars at most.

You have two IC campaigns and BOTH of them are empty.

And you have BGs where so few teams were playing in them they could not merit having teams at all due to balancing issues.

So few people pvp that they have all but abandoned making new content for it. They even gave away IC, guess it was not a big money maker.

You limit your scope to pvp only (which few people play), try opening the discussion to more then that narrow field.

Your arguments about constantly rolling is also pointless because doing that in trials is a net dps loss, plus a good way to roll into something that will get you killed.

And anyway this thread is about stealth. Not armor pen, not max stam, not stam regen. Stealth.

Can stealth detect be used in pve? It cannot. Ergo the stealth bonus (which was both used in pve and pvp) wood elves had before, is better then the stealth detect we have now.

It turned to discussion of pack of passives after somebody said that bosmer became useless after re-balance of racial passives. Which is untrue, from mathematical point of view.

As for the stealing vs crafting writs... crafting writs are roughly 100k per hour spent. Plz tell me what I may steal/pickpocket to have daily 100k per hour.

About campaign populations, they were pop-locked every evening even half-year ago. Now game simply became unplayable.

And like it was said numerous time, nothing prevents you to stack 3 existing stealth sets and you will have almost the same stealth as you had when there were bosmer passives + 2 stealth sets. And yes, khajiit was far superior to bosmer as thief even before, because on fully leveled legerdemain, +5% to pickpocket chance is massive difference in practice.

There were no parity between bosmer and khajiit, cats were always your best race if you want to steal most effectively.

This thread was always about stealth, it was only after a typical pvp player, who of course thinks the game world revolves around them came in did the conservation start to change. But this thread is about stealth and the lack of diversity in choice.

The only time pvp areas are busy are during pvp events, and the fact that they have to add all those extra campaigns to deal with the huge influx of pve players should tell you how small the pvp community is compared to pve. The fact that they have to give away pvp additions to the game to everyone, and they STILL can’t get them populated should be a big red flag.

Your argument basically breaks down that wood elves are acceptable;

If you pvp;
And if you wear leather armor;
And if you use roll dodge a lot;
And if you use a particular niche build;
And if you do a particularly niche play style;
And if you do this all in a no cp campaign.

(Or you can roll an orc that’s good for both pvp and pve and you can wear heavy armor if you want. )

Why should pve players have to wear special armor to compensate for pvp only passives? Stealth could be used In both pve and pvp, stealth detect cannot. (I noticed you chose to ignore that. ) if you want that 3m of stealth detect drink a potion.

And;
https://youtu.be/6mG3ZsZOKOY

No mats needed, no switching of characters, no leveling up professions, much less need for skill points.

Here is another;

https://youtu.be/ZDKPEjb06BE

This guy is much better at it then me.

No ore or wood needed. How many points into jewelry crafting do you think they needed?

But you know what helps in these routes? Stealth, built in stealth!

Do you know what does not help? Care to guess?

•••

Zos said that when they took out stealth they said they wanted to give more player choice. They didn’t.
They said they heard the concerns about bosmers and they would introduce systems to compensate.
They didn’t.
Do you think any race can keep up with a kahjit in stealth? There isn’t.... at least now after they decided to hobble bosmers.

HankTwo

@BlueRaven

Your argument is pretty dishonest because

a) PvP most likely has a low population right now because of the horrendous performance issues, not because people are not interested. Hell, I'm myself on a break from the game right now because of this, so I'm waiting for the greymoore release hoping for at least some improvements. Furthermore, if your argument is that PvP has a low pop therefore it shouldn't matter much the same can be said about veteran trials or your beloved stealth thievery runs. How many players do that? I'm pretty sure its less than people who PvP.

b) about the build being super niche:
1) wearing medium armor is not niche
- medium armor is bis for PvE stam DPS
- medium armor is arguably bis for PvP stam builds
- medium armor is bis for stealth (seriously, wtf are you otherwise wearing when you do your thievery runs?)
2) if you PvP as a stamina build you dodge roll a lot, Bosmer or not, it doesn't matter
3) I don't even know where this 'only good in no-cp' comes from. Bosmer passives are good in both cp and no-cp
--> there is nothing niche about it

c) Now, why should you wear special armor for your stealth gameplay? Better question is why shouldn't you. If you care so much about stealth thievery but don't even think its worth investing into some specialized gear you are devaluating your own playstyle...
Edit: I mean your whole point after all is that the Khajiit stealth passive is crucial for stealth gameplay, but at the same time you think people should't care about sets that provide similar buffs?

d) Again, and this is an honest question, is there even a measurable differnce between non-Khajiit player in full stealth gear vs Khajiit player in full stealth gear when it comes to NPC detection? Uesp build editor says non-Khajiit can reach 0 meters stealth radius, so its definitely worth checking out. Because if thats the case your whole argument about no other race being able to keep up with Khajiit breaks down to the pickpocket passive only, which existed even before update 21.

BlueRaven

HankTwo wrote: »

@BlueRaven


c) Now, why should you wear special armor for your stealth gameplay? Better question is why shouldn't you. If you care so much about stealth thievery but don't even think its worth investing into some specialized gear you are devaluating your own playstyle...

d) Again, and this is an honest question, is there even a measurable differnce between non-Khajiit player in full stealth gear vs Khajiit player in full stealth gear when it comes to NPC detection? Uesp build editor says non-Khajiit can reach 0 meters stealth radius, so its definitely worth cheking out. Because if thats the case your whole argument about no other race being able to keep up with Khajiit breaks down to the pickpocket passive only, which existed even before update 21.

What ever stealth armor a bosmer can wear, kahjits always wear that stealth armor better.

You know that question of wearing special armor can be flipped right? I mean if pvpers care so much about rolling with a stealth detect and armor pen, why was the "of the air" armor not in demand? (Just checked the prices, you can get a chest piece in blue, with inpen, for 174 gold.) I mean "why should you wear special armor for your" (pvp) "gameplay? Better question is why shouldn't you." I mean wouldn't all that add to your armor pen and "uber" stealth detect? That armor set should be in demand, no?

A kahjiit with a bounty in full stealth armor can crouch right in front of a guard and the guard cannot see them. Bosmers (or anyone else) not so much. The 3m of stealth is a big deal.

Meanwhile in PvP land, the range of a melee attack is 5m (I believe), so that 3m of stealth detect must be a big help.

My question to you is why do you want this 3m of stealth detect so badly, when it is eclipsed by magelight and potions and the like? Why are you so desperate for this 3m stealth detect?

HankTwo

BlueRaven wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

@BlueRaven


c) Now, why should you wear special armor for your stealth gameplay? Better question is why shouldn't you. If you care so much about stealth thievery but don't even think its worth investing into some specialized gear you are devaluating your own playstyle...

d) Again, and this is an honest question, is there even a measurable differnce between non-Khajiit player in full stealth gear vs Khajiit player in full stealth gear when it comes to NPC detection? Uesp build editor says non-Khajiit can reach 0 meters stealth radius, so its definitely worth cheking out. Because if thats the case your whole argument about no other race being able to keep up with Khajiit breaks down to the pickpocket passive only, which existed even before update 21.

What ever stealth armor a bosmer can wear, kahjits always wear that stealth armor better.

You know that question of wearing special armor can be flipped right? I mean if pvpers care so much about rolling with a stealth detect and armor pen, why was the "of the air" armor not in demand? (Just checked the prices, you can get a chest piece in blue, with inpen, for 174 gold.) I mean "why should you wear special armor for your" (pvp) "gameplay? Better question is why shouldn't you." I mean wouldn't all that add to your armor pen and "uber" stealth detect? That armor set should be in demand, no?

A kahjiit with a bounty in full stealth armor can crouch right in front of a guard and the guard cannot see them. Bosmers (or anyone else) not so much. The 3m of stealth is a big deal.

Meanwhile in PvP land, the range of a melee attack is 5m (I believe), so that 3m of stealth detect must be a big help.

My question to you is why do you want this 3m of stealth detect so badly, when it is eclipsed by magelight and potions and the like? Why are you so desperate for this 3m stealth detect?

Simple, the question if an armor set with a stat boosting 5 piece is desirable or not in PvP mostly depends on its stat density. Any weapon damage set now has to compete with sets like new moon acolyte, armor of fury, armor of truth and the likes. If its less stat dense, it won't be used.

Also, keep in mind that the Bosmer dodge roll passive is that race's utility passive. The main stat boni are 2k stamina and 258 stam regen.

Last but not least your claim that I want that stealth detection passive in its current form is simply a straw man. I never once said that. To quote myself from this thread:

HankTwo wrote: »

That being said, the current extra stealth detection would only be useful if it would stack with a skill like camoflaged hunter or detect pots, which afaik it doesn't do right now...

I'm not your sworn enemy here that is opposing every single word you say, I just don't think dishonesty and exaggarations are productive in any shape or form.

P.S.: I created my own Bosmer character specifically after update 21 because I really like the dodge roll synergy. Before that the racial passives were simply unattractive to me (mostly because of the extra damage from stealth, which again, was useless for any non-nightblade. U21 changed that and I'm glad).

BlueRaven

HankTwo wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

@BlueRaven


c) Now, why should you wear special armor for your stealth gameplay? Better question is why shouldn't you. If you care so much about stealth thievery but don't even think its worth investing into some specialized gear you are devaluating your own playstyle...

d) Again, and this is an honest question, is there even a measurable differnce between non-Khajiit player in full stealth gear vs Khajiit player in full stealth gear when it comes to NPC detection? Uesp build editor says non-Khajiit can reach 0 meters stealth radius, so its definitely worth cheking out. Because if thats the case your whole argument about no other race being able to keep up with Khajiit breaks down to the pickpocket passive only, which existed even before update 21.

What ever stealth armor a bosmer can wear, kahjits always wear that stealth armor better.

You know that question of wearing special armor can be flipped right? I mean if pvpers care so much about rolling with a stealth detect and armor pen, why was the "of the air" armor not in demand? (Just checked the prices, you can get a chest piece in blue, with inpen, for 174 gold.) I mean "why should you wear special armor for your" (pvp) "gameplay? Better question is why shouldn't you." I mean wouldn't all that add to your armor pen and "uber" stealth detect? That armor set should be in demand, no?

A kahjiit with a bounty in full stealth armor can crouch right in front of a guard and the guard cannot see them. Bosmers (or anyone else) not so much. The 3m of stealth is a big deal.

Meanwhile in PvP land, the range of a melee attack is 5m (I believe), so that 3m of stealth detect must be a big help.

My question to you is why do you want this 3m of stealth detect so badly, when it is eclipsed by magelight and potions and the like? Why are you so desperate for this 3m stealth detect?

Simple, the question if an armor set with a stat boosting 5 piece is desirable or not in PvP mostly depends on its stat density. Any weapon damage set now has to compete with sets like new moon acolyte, armor of fury, armor of truth and the likes. If its less stat dense, it won't be used.

Also, keep in mind that the Bosmer dodge roll passive is that race's utility passive. The main stat boni are 2k stamina and 258 stam regen.

Last but not least your claim that I want that stealth detection passive in its current form is simply a straw man. I never once said that. To quote myself from this thread:

HankTwo wrote: »

That being said, the current extra stealth detection would only be useful if it would stack with a skill like camoflaged hunter or detect pots, which afaik it doesn't do right now...

I'm not your sworn enemy here that is opposing every single word you say, I just don't think dishonesty and exaggarations are productive in any shape or form.

P.S.: I created my own Bosmer character specifically after update 21 because I really like the dodge roll synergy. Before that the racial passives were simply unattractive to me (mostly because of the extra damage from stealth, which again, was useless for any non-nightblade. U21 changed that and I'm glad).

This thread is about stealth, it always has been. How is that so hard to understand?

If you did not want the stealth detect then there is nothing here for you to object to. Do you think we are all upset over stam regen? If you are objecting to my arguments then you are in FAVOR of stealth detect. Pure and simple. No straw man at all.

Go back to the start of this thread and reread what the person wrote. Here I will help;

"Before Update 21, Gilliam, many Wood Elf players had already self-reflected and asked themselves what their playstyle and build would be. Many of those playstyles consisted of lore-friendly sneakiness and/or thievery. But, your decision to remove the reduced detection radius passive from Wood Elf racial skills had the opposite effect of your well-intended goal of providing options and freedom. Instead, you reduced options for existing players who already had a gameplay style, and took some freedom away from those players. You made sneaking harder for Wood Elves, which not only contradicted lore, but also pushed players who sought to maintain their existing playstyle into equipping specific item sets to try to get back some of what you took away. You reduced build freedom, and went against your mantra."

If you are not here to defend the the change from stealth to stealth detect, why are you here?

HankTwo

BlueRaven wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

@BlueRaven


c) Now, why should you wear special armor for your stealth gameplay? Better question is why shouldn't you. If you care so much about stealth thievery but don't even think its worth investing into some specialized gear you are devaluating your own playstyle...

d) Again, and this is an honest question, is there even a measurable differnce between non-Khajiit player in full stealth gear vs Khajiit player in full stealth gear when it comes to NPC detection? Uesp build editor says non-Khajiit can reach 0 meters stealth radius, so its definitely worth cheking out. Because if thats the case your whole argument about no other race being able to keep up with Khajiit breaks down to the pickpocket passive only, which existed even before update 21.

What ever stealth armor a bosmer can wear, kahjits always wear that stealth armor better.

You know that question of wearing special armor can be flipped right? I mean if pvpers care so much about rolling with a stealth detect and armor pen, why was the "of the air" armor not in demand? (Just checked the prices, you can get a chest piece in blue, with inpen, for 174 gold.) I mean "why should you wear special armor for your" (pvp) "gameplay? Better question is why shouldn't you." I mean wouldn't all that add to your armor pen and "uber" stealth detect? That armor set should be in demand, no?

A kahjiit with a bounty in full stealth armor can crouch right in front of a guard and the guard cannot see them. Bosmers (or anyone else) not so much. The 3m of stealth is a big deal.

Meanwhile in PvP land, the range of a melee attack is 5m (I believe), so that 3m of stealth detect must be a big help.

My question to you is why do you want this 3m of stealth detect so badly, when it is eclipsed by magelight and potions and the like? Why are you so desperate for this 3m stealth detect?

Simple, the question if an armor set with a stat boosting 5 piece is desirable or not in PvP mostly depends on its stat density. Any weapon damage set now has to compete with sets like new moon acolyte, armor of fury, armor of truth and the likes. If its less stat dense, it won't be used.

Also, keep in mind that the Bosmer dodge roll passive is that race's utility passive. The main stat boni are 2k stamina and 258 stam regen.

Last but not least your claim that I want that stealth detection passive in its current form is simply a straw man. I never once said that. To quote myself from this thread:

HankTwo wrote: »

That being said, the current extra stealth detection would only be useful if it would stack with a skill like camoflaged hunter or detect pots, which afaik it doesn't do right now...

I'm not your sworn enemy here that is opposing every single word you say, I just don't think dishonesty and exaggarations are productive in any shape or form.

P.S.: I created my own Bosmer character specifically after update 21 because I really like the dodge roll synergy. Before that the racial passives were simply unattractive to me (mostly because of the extra damage from stealth, which again, was useless for any non-nightblade. U21 changed that and I'm glad).

This thread is about stealth, it always has been. How is that so hard to understand?

If you did not want the stealth detect then there is nothing here for you to object to. Do you think we are all upset over stam regen? If you are objecting to my arguments then you are in FAVOR of stealth detect. Pure and simple. No straw man at all.

Go back to the start of this thread and reread what the person wrote. Here I will help;

"Before Update 21, Gilliam, many Wood Elf players had already self-reflected and asked themselves what their playstyle and build would be. Many of those playstyles consisted of lore-friendly sneakiness and/or thievery. But, your decision to remove the reduced detection radius passive from Wood Elf racial skills had the opposite effect of your well-intended goal of providing options and freedom. Instead, you reduced options for existing players who already had a gameplay style, and took some freedom away from those players. You made sneaking harder for Wood Elves, which not only contradicted lore, but also pushed players who sought to maintain their existing playstyle into equipping specific item sets to try to get back some of what you took away. You reduced build freedom, and went against your mantra."

If you are not here to defend the the change from stealth to stealth detect, why are you here?

Nice of you to aks what my postion is and why I am here, so let me explain:

1) Threads like this always have the tone of Bosmer before update 21 = all good and Bosmer after update 21 = useless, butchered, nerfed to the ground. One example:

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

Wait, bosmer are playable? I thought they were removed from the game.

While the truth is that gameplay wise before update 21 Bosmer was probably more niche than it is now.

2) One part of the stealth identity and the very same passive as the stealth reduction was the stealth extra damage. I don't want to see a key combat racial passive that is restricted to basically a single class ever again.

3) Personally, I would like to see a stealth detection passive that stacks with other detection sources. Camouflaged hunter in particular (which I use on my Bosmer char) has such a small radius that the extra 3 meters would make a significant difference. However, since extra stealth would apparently make more people happy I would be fine with ZOS changing this, but only this and nothing more back to a stealth passive.

So in the end what I'm worriying about is that ZOS will hear stuff like 'Bosmer should be stealth focused', 'Bosmer before update 21 was fine', and so on over and over again, and then decide to make the race full stealth focused again, even when it comes to key combat passives, which would destroy my own Bosmer char. If people who post in these kind of threads would always be specific about only wanting to change that 3 meter passive and nothing else, no exaggerations and so on, I wouldn't be here.

BlueRaven

HankTwo wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

@BlueRaven


c) Now, why should you wear special armor for your stealth gameplay? Better question is why shouldn't you. If you care so much about stealth thievery but don't even think its worth investing into some specialized gear you are devaluating your own playstyle...

d) Again, and this is an honest question, is there even a measurable differnce between non-Khajiit player in full stealth gear vs Khajiit player in full stealth gear when it comes to NPC detection? Uesp build editor says non-Khajiit can reach 0 meters stealth radius, so its definitely worth cheking out. Because if thats the case your whole argument about no other race being able to keep up with Khajiit breaks down to the pickpocket passive only, which existed even before update 21.

What ever stealth armor a bosmer can wear, kahjits always wear that stealth armor better.

You know that question of wearing special armor can be flipped right? I mean if pvpers care so much about rolling with a stealth detect and armor pen, why was the "of the air" armor not in demand? (Just checked the prices, you can get a chest piece in blue, with inpen, for 174 gold.) I mean "why should you wear special armor for your" (pvp) "gameplay? Better question is why shouldn't you." I mean wouldn't all that add to your armor pen and "uber" stealth detect? That armor set should be in demand, no?

A kahjiit with a bounty in full stealth armor can crouch right in front of a guard and the guard cannot see them. Bosmers (or anyone else) not so much. The 3m of stealth is a big deal.

Meanwhile in PvP land, the range of a melee attack is 5m (I believe), so that 3m of stealth detect must be a big help.

My question to you is why do you want this 3m of stealth detect so badly, when it is eclipsed by magelight and potions and the like? Why are you so desperate for this 3m stealth detect?

Simple, the question if an armor set with a stat boosting 5 piece is desirable or not in PvP mostly depends on its stat density. Any weapon damage set now has to compete with sets like new moon acolyte, armor of fury, armor of truth and the likes. If its less stat dense, it won't be used.

Also, keep in mind that the Bosmer dodge roll passive is that race's utility passive. The main stat boni are 2k stamina and 258 stam regen.

Last but not least your claim that I want that stealth detection passive in its current form is simply a straw man. I never once said that. To quote myself from this thread:

HankTwo wrote: »

That being said, the current extra stealth detection would only be useful if it would stack with a skill like camoflaged hunter or detect pots, which afaik it doesn't do right now...

I'm not your sworn enemy here that is opposing every single word you say, I just don't think dishonesty and exaggarations are productive in any shape or form.

P.S.: I created my own Bosmer character specifically after update 21 because I really like the dodge roll synergy. Before that the racial passives were simply unattractive to me (mostly because of the extra damage from stealth, which again, was useless for any non-nightblade. U21 changed that and I'm glad).

This thread is about stealth, it always has been. How is that so hard to understand?

If you did not want the stealth detect then there is nothing here for you to object to. Do you think we are all upset over stam regen? If you are objecting to my arguments then you are in FAVOR of stealth detect. Pure and simple. No straw man at all.

Go back to the start of this thread and reread what the person wrote. Here I will help;

"Before Update 21, Gilliam, many Wood Elf players had already self-reflected and asked themselves what their playstyle and build would be. Many of those playstyles consisted of lore-friendly sneakiness and/or thievery. But, your decision to remove the reduced detection radius passive from Wood Elf racial skills had the opposite effect of your well-intended goal of providing options and freedom. Instead, you reduced options for existing players who already had a gameplay style, and took some freedom away from those players. You made sneaking harder for Wood Elves, which not only contradicted lore, but also pushed players who sought to maintain their existing playstyle into equipping specific item sets to try to get back some of what you took away. You reduced build freedom, and went against your mantra."

If you are not here to defend the the change from stealth to stealth detect, why are you here?

Nice of you to aks what my postion is and why I am here, so let me explain:

1) Threads like this always have the tone of Bosmer before update 21 = all good and Bosmer after update 21 = useless, butchered, nerfed to the ground. One example:

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

Wait, bosmer are playable? I thought they were removed from the game.

While the truth is that gameplay wise before update 21 Bosmer was probably more niche than it is now.

2) One part of the stealth identity and the very same passive as the stealth reduction was the stealth extra damage. I don't want to see a key combat racial passive that is restricted to basically a single class ever again.

3) Personally, I would like to see a stealth detection passive that stacks with other detection sources. Camouflaged hunter in particular (which I use on my Bosmer char) has such a small radius that the extra 3 meters would make a significant difference. However, since extra stealth would apparently make more people happy I would be fine with ZOS changing this, but only this and nothing more back to a stealth passive.

So in the end what I'm worriying about is that ZOS will hear stuff like 'Bosmer should be stealth focused', 'Bosmer before update 21 was fine', and so on over and over again, and then decide to make the race full stealth focused again, even when it comes to key combat passives, which would destroy my own Bosmer char. If people who post in these kind of threads would always be specific about only wanting to change that 3 meter passive and nothing else, no exaggarations and so on, I wouldn't be here.

So you ARE here to defend stealth detect. Then what was "Last but not least your claim that I want that stealth detection passive in its current form is simply a straw man."? Just to waste everyone's time?

[snip]

And it's not that Bosmers "SHOULD" be stealth focus, rather Bosmers' "ARE" stealth focused. This is an Elder Scrolls game.

[Edited for Baiting]

MartiniDaniels

@BlueRaven
Nobody can say clear about stealth detection, tbh, I'm not sure how it works and if it works at all. But when somebody tries to gank me from stealth (not from cloak), I detect them before first hit lands which totally screws all the gank attempt. Maybe this is bug, maybe not, but "it works". As far as i know default backside stealth detection is 5 meters (before stealth reduction modifiers), so with bosmer 3m it is almost doubled.
In the same time, I like to ambush people from stealth myself, and I can clearly say it is very hard to do against bosmer. While in last patches gankers became rare, with changes to vampire they might return and bosmer passive might become rather important. Of course you can't detect cloak that way, but when somebody uses cloak close to you, there is very distinctive sound, so ganking/ambushing from stealth is far superior.

About those videos, yes there is slight chance to get epic rare furniture scheme, but that chance is really low. I knew several persons who specialized in farming them, and while they were pretty rich, they were doing this for hours every day, while crafting requires only ~1 hour per day and you will have stable several milions per month. I am not telling that thieving is not profitable, I was doing it a lot in first months of play and before my crafting "factory" was developing. Even now I sometimes do thieving just to relax and explore, but if I were forced to sustain all the expenses on thieving alone, I'll doubt it will be much fun.

Bosmer vs orc - yes in PVE difference is noticeable, but it is because ZOS still hesitates to give decent food to sustain races. It is combination of factors and not only hunter's eye. Anyway difference between bosmer and orc now is lower then difference between bosmer and redguard before change of racial passives. Not to mention that difference in looks between bosmer and orc is much bigger then between bosmer and redguards, he-he.

So while I share concern about lore breach, I don't agree that bosmer became worse then before.

Sanguinor2

BlueRaven wrote: »

So you ARE here to defend stealth detect. Then what was "Last but not least your claim that I want that stealth detection passive in its current form is simply a straw man."? Just to waste everyone's time?

[snip]

And it's not that Bosmers "SHOULD" be stealth focus, rather Bosmers' "ARE" stealth focused. This is an Elder Scrolls game.

[Edited for Baiting]

Really THAT is what you took from his post? He literally says that while he would like if the Stealth detection was made more useful he would be fine with it getting replaced by the anti detection radius. He just doesnt want the Stealth Bonus Damage back so that all bosmer passives apply better to all classes instead of one applying to nightblades only. And correct me if Im wrong but for you People in here it isnt About the Stealth Bonus Damage either or is it?

And his other Argument is that so many here are saying how bosmer passives are completely useless when its only the Stealth detect part that has no real use in either PvE or PvP and that he worries that all that doom and gloom might get the other good bosmer passives changed.

HankTwo

BlueRaven wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

@BlueRaven


c) Now, why should you wear special armor for your stealth gameplay? Better question is why shouldn't you. If you care so much about stealth thievery but don't even think its worth investing into some specialized gear you are devaluating your own playstyle...

d) Again, and this is an honest question, is there even a measurable differnce between non-Khajiit player in full stealth gear vs Khajiit player in full stealth gear when it comes to NPC detection? Uesp build editor says non-Khajiit can reach 0 meters stealth radius, so its definitely worth cheking out. Because if thats the case your whole argument about no other race being able to keep up with Khajiit breaks down to the pickpocket passive only, which existed even before update 21.

What ever stealth armor a bosmer can wear, kahjits always wear that stealth armor better.

You know that question of wearing special armor can be flipped right? I mean if pvpers care so much about rolling with a stealth detect and armor pen, why was the "of the air" armor not in demand? (Just checked the prices, you can get a chest piece in blue, with inpen, for 174 gold.) I mean "why should you wear special armor for your" (pvp) "gameplay? Better question is why shouldn't you." I mean wouldn't all that add to your armor pen and "uber" stealth detect? That armor set should be in demand, no?

A kahjiit with a bounty in full stealth armor can crouch right in front of a guard and the guard cannot see them. Bosmers (or anyone else) not so much. The 3m of stealth is a big deal.

Meanwhile in PvP land, the range of a melee attack is 5m (I believe), so that 3m of stealth detect must be a big help.

My question to you is why do you want this 3m of stealth detect so badly, when it is eclipsed by magelight and potions and the like? Why are you so desperate for this 3m stealth detect?

Simple, the question if an armor set with a stat boosting 5 piece is desirable or not in PvP mostly depends on its stat density. Any weapon damage set now has to compete with sets like new moon acolyte, armor of fury, armor of truth and the likes. If its less stat dense, it won't be used.

Also, keep in mind that the Bosmer dodge roll passive is that race's utility passive. The main stat boni are 2k stamina and 258 stam regen.

Last but not least your claim that I want that stealth detection passive in its current form is simply a straw man. I never once said that. To quote myself from this thread:

HankTwo wrote: »

That being said, the current extra stealth detection would only be useful if it would stack with a skill like camoflaged hunter or detect pots, which afaik it doesn't do right now...

I'm not your sworn enemy here that is opposing every single word you say, I just don't think dishonesty and exaggarations are productive in any shape or form.

P.S.: I created my own Bosmer character specifically after update 21 because I really like the dodge roll synergy. Before that the racial passives were simply unattractive to me (mostly because of the extra damage from stealth, which again, was useless for any non-nightblade. U21 changed that and I'm glad).

This thread is about stealth, it always has been. How is that so hard to understand?

If you did not want the stealth detect then there is nothing here for you to object to. Do you think we are all upset over stam regen? If you are objecting to my arguments then you are in FAVOR of stealth detect. Pure and simple. No straw man at all.

Go back to the start of this thread and reread what the person wrote. Here I will help;

"Before Update 21, Gilliam, many Wood Elf players had already self-reflected and asked themselves what their playstyle and build would be. Many of those playstyles consisted of lore-friendly sneakiness and/or thievery. But, your decision to remove the reduced detection radius passive from Wood Elf racial skills had the opposite effect of your well-intended goal of providing options and freedom. Instead, you reduced options for existing players who already had a gameplay style, and took some freedom away from those players. You made sneaking harder for Wood Elves, which not only contradicted lore, but also pushed players who sought to maintain their existing playstyle into equipping specific item sets to try to get back some of what you took away. You reduced build freedom, and went against your mantra."

If you are not here to defend the the change from stealth to stealth detect, why are you here?

Nice of you to aks what my postion is and why I am here, so let me explain:

1) Threads like this always have the tone of Bosmer before update 21 = all good and Bosmer after update 21 = useless, butchered, nerfed to the ground. One example:

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

Wait, bosmer are playable? I thought they were removed from the game.

While the truth is that gameplay wise before update 21 Bosmer was probably more niche than it is now.

2) One part of the stealth identity and the very same passive as the stealth reduction was the stealth extra damage. I don't want to see a key combat racial passive that is restricted to basically a single class ever again.

3) Personally, I would like to see a stealth detection passive that stacks with other detection sources. Camouflaged hunter in particular (which I use on my Bosmer char) has such a small radius that the extra 3 meters would make a significant difference. However, since extra stealth would apparently make more people happy I would be fine with ZOS changing this, but only this and nothing more back to a stealth passive.

So in the end what I'm worriying about is that ZOS will hear stuff like 'Bosmer should be stealth focused', 'Bosmer before update 21 was fine', and so on over and over again, and then decide to make the race full stealth focused again, even when it comes to key combat passives, which would destroy my own Bosmer char. If people who post in these kind of threads would always be specific about only wanting to change that 3 meter passive and nothing else, no exaggarations and so on, I wouldn't be here.

So you ARE here to defend stealth detect. Then what was "Last but not least your claim that I want that stealth detection passive in its current form is simply a straw man."? Just to waste everyone's time?

[snip]

And it's not that Bosmers "SHOULD" be stealth focus, rather Bosmers' "ARE" stealth focused. This is an Elder Scrolls game.

[Edited for Baiting]

It was a straw man because you said:

'My question to you is why do you want this 3m of stealth detect so badly, when it is eclipsed by magelight and potions and the like? Why are you so desperate for this 3m stealth detect?'

Now I'm telling you again, to be extra clear:

1) I dont want stealth detection badly and I am not desperate for it. This fact alone makes it a straw man, plain and simple.

2) I agree that the current version of stealth detect is pretty useless.

3) A stealth detect that stacks with camo hunter would be more useful to me personally than a stealth radius reduction. However, it is such a minor passive for me personally that I wouldn't mind either way. I'm even telling you that I think ZOS should probably change this because it would make more people happy. How is this wanting something so badly and being so desparate? How is it not a straw man of you to imply this?

4) Again, the main reason why I'm here is because I don't want to see key combat passives be stealth related. It should be obvious that neither stealth detection nor stealth radius reduction are key combat passives. The dodge roll passive or the old extra damage from stealth on the other hand are.

I hope this is clear now, Jesus.

[snip]

Edit: Yes, @Sanguinor2 , your post above sums up what I mean, thank you.

[Minor edit for Baiting]

heaven13

Aznox wrote: »

I'll let anyone reading this thread make his own opinion of both your and my contributions

Maybe someone should open a tread about how useless Nords racials are to a PvE Stam DPS ?

Or why anyone would ever pick Imperial for a Mag PvE DPS ?

I'll stop toying with you now but please understand that exaggerations like this will not help convince anyone, especially not members of the balance team :

Wait, bosmer are playable? I thought they were removed from the game.

Imperials for PvE magdps are far more viable than you may think. And yes, I actually have an Imperial mag dps. Max Health allows me to run parse food instead of purple Regen or health/Magicka and 3% cost reduction on top of resource restore on direct damage is good for sustain. Much better than the very niche Hunter's Eye.