Trolling Inside Game

Earthewen

Raudgrani wrote: »

Sange13 wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

The forums are policed at regular intervals, but the posts, unlike game dialog, don't go away in a few minutes. In order to police chat they would have to have someone logged in that can read every zone, every minute of every day. So maybe it's more unreasonable expectations?

I'm not even going to go into what's considered toxic, because someone could consider "Hey man, what's up" as toxic, while someone else, like me, who grew up with "*** you" as the same thing as good morning, may not see anything toxic or offensive.

Well, there should be an option to report specific comments "in-game", just easy like that. I'm not a very sensitive guy, and I'm against this constant tolerance this and respect that, be kind there and be friendly there - but some people are just too much. Being very personal and hostile, or like political extremism in area chats etc. Some people don't want to think of and see all that, that's even why some people even play the game I guess.

Absolutely not. Reporting should *only* before breaking ToS or cheating. Period. Everything else is interpersonal BS and should be handled at that level.

Well, threats, blatant racism and bullying IS "break ToS". So I don't really know what you are trying to say? It's not like it's helping anyone in any way if some people spam a hundred lines of same racist slurs, or go on and on about how someone sucks. Maybe not so usual in PVE areas, but in PVP it's not been uncommon. For some reason a few AD guys had the idea that I was non-white, and started some weird racist bullying posse towards me in EP area chat in Cyrodiil. I mean wtf., it's just wrong in every imaginable way, let alone the fact that I'm as white as a native Swede can ever get.

But that's "interpersonal" according to you, I suppose?

Just curious as to how you knew that they thought you were non-white? Were you argonian?

Jeremy

khajiitNPC wrote: »

Freedom of speech does not equal freedom from consequence. Nor does anyone have to put up with someone’s abusive behavior. Don’t like that you got reported for saying offensive things?

Stop being offensive. Simple as that. It’s call decency and being virtuous. Which I know are empty words to those who are the followers of subjectivity. I know it’s hard to understand when we are living in an age of alternate facts, and “truth isn’t truth”. And I know so many think they are being edgy and rebellious, hopefully you grow out of that some day.

Subjectivity is just a fact of life.

What one person finds offensive, another will find none offensive, possibly even affectionate. It's has little to do with maturity, being edgy, or rebellious. Is just the cultural norms you grew up in differ from those of others. This is especially the case in a multi cultural society like the United States. That's why enforcing speech becomes so idiosyncratic to the person attempting to police it.

So I think it's better to just give people the tools to moderate the chat themselves. That way people can choose who shares their behavioral standards and then those who don't.

Soul_Demon

ZOS_FelipeF wrote: »

​Greetings,

We had to remove some posts as it violated our rules involving baiting and bashing. Please be sure to keep discussions civil and constructive​. Upon reading some of your comments, we again remind everyone that if your feedback is directed towards a specific person/group of people in a derogatory manner (whether intentional or not), it stops being objective and will need to be moderated.

For example "I do not like the animation cancelling ability in the game" versus "How could the devs possibly think animation cancelling should remain the way it is, I mean do they even think?".

If you have any questions about the actions being taken, please take a moment to review our community rules here.

And when the interpretive ability of the forum mods is in question, who is it we direct that to? Surely you dont really want or think its appropriate to turn in a ticket to those who would eventually view that ticket and make another 'judgement call' as to its relative value and validity? Or do you think that is appropriate in a place that values the exchanges with the paying customers?

Erelah

Malmai wrote: »

Everbody wants to get shield from mods etc... I wonder where people go for shield in real life? Mom? Dad? Police? Saying he told me that cuff him hes toxic haha? Smart people can ignore and block. Running mouth at toxic person just makes you double toxic and will trigger just more toxicity...

If I am at my job and someone has a toxic behavior they get fired. If I go to a store and person behaves like a spoiled brat they are asked to leave. If I head out to a bar or see a movie and someone behaves like a drama queen they are shown the door.

Orjix

Kadoin wrote: »

PvP is a toxic place...

which is why it is beautiful. ever played any good PvP with no toxicity? No, because it doesn't exist

Thoragaal

Earthewen wrote: »

[...] So at what point do you block trolls? How do you determine when someone is a troll and worthy of blocking and someone who is "having a bad day" (or month or year?)

I don't care if they're a troll or not.
I don't care if they only have a bad day.
They are in control of their own actions.
If I've had enough I put them on ignore.

Thicclady

Earthewen wrote: »

Without discussing any disciplinary actions as that is against the TOS, I would like to comment on the amount of toxic behavior that is allowed inside game and compare it to what happens in the forums. I feel like we have two extremes going on here. Am I the only one?

Not seeing your point. Block the people who are bothering you in game, problem solved. Not everyone is required to like each other on internet.

Erelah

Thicclady wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Without discussing any disciplinary actions as that is against the TOS, I would like to comment on the amount of toxic behavior that is allowed inside game and compare it to what happens in the forums. I feel like we have two extremes going on here. Am I the only one?

Not seeing your point. Block the people who are bothering you in game, problem solved. Not everyone is required to like each other on internet.

And nobody is required to put up with bad behavior. Thankfully ZOS believes I am correct which is why we all may report players for bad behavior and if the developers agree they will take action as people lack the tools to correct their own behavior. I enjoy being right.

Klad

Very simple solution....

There is this awesome addon called mute, there are no limit to the amount of [snip] you can mute.

Check it out.


[snip]

[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]

Orjix

Erelah wrote: »

Thicclady wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Without discussing any disciplinary actions as that is against the TOS, I would like to comment on the amount of toxic behavior that is allowed inside game and compare it to what happens in the forums. I feel like we have two extremes going on here. Am I the only one?

Not seeing your point. Block the people who are bothering you in game, problem solved. Not everyone is required to like each other on internet.

And nobody is required to put up with bad behavior. Thankfully ZOS believes I am correct which is why we all may report players for bad behavior and if the developers agree they will take action as people lack the tools to correct their own behavior. I enjoy being right.

you don't have to put up with it tho, you can block them. If me and a few randos are going at each other in zone chat, you zone in and see us going at it, and then decide to report the people who you believe are "wrong". How does that help anyone? Even if me and the randos HATED each other ideas we were spewing, we could still be of the mind that what is being said is not offensive enough to be reported. So why should you have the deciding factor of what is good an wholesome and what is not?

Sanctum74

Block, report, or shhh you have options.

khajiitNPC

@Earthewen

People know when they are being offensive. This isn’t about civil discourse — too many times I see lil baby edgelords who will say something offensive, whether in text or in voice, and then try to turn it around as “oh this current climate you have to be PC blah blah blah”. As though being a decent human being is some sort of political agenda. When you’re in game sexually harassing women, calling people ***, or just generally being an ass under the banner of “everyone needs to be more thicc skinned” then you are the problem. You’re free to say any of those things, but if you get reported because that, then you’re an clown and have no clue and should probably put the red pills down because you’re being indoctrinated by an agenda that is just as bad as the extreme liberal agenda.

Sange13

khajiitNPC wrote: »

@Earthewen

People know when they are being offensive. This isn’t about civil discourse — too many times I see lil baby edgelords who will say something offensive, whether in text or in voice, and then try to turn it around as “oh this current climate you have to be PC blah blah blah”. As though being a decent human being is some sort of political agenda. When you’re in game sexually harassing women, calling people ***, or just generally being an ass under the banner of “everyone needs to be more thicc skinned” then you are the problem. You’re free to say any of those things, but if you get reported because that, then you’re an clown and have no clue and should probably put the red pills down because you’re being indoctrinated by an agenda that is just as bad as the extreme liberal agenda.

No, it's that people resent others trying to control them. It's not up to you or anyone else to tell them how they have to conduct themselves. Not all trolling is racist/sexist/harassment etc either. [snip]

[Edited for Baiting.]

khajiitNPC

@Sange13 must be nice to live in a delusional world. No one said all trolling was racist/sexist/harassment. I listed very specific examples of “trolling”, that is not okay.

And yes, it’s not up to me to tell them, they are free to do what they want, but if they are being racist, sexually harassing people, being overtly offensive, then they get reported and they brought it on themselves. So kindly grow up.

Sange13

(Decided I didn't like this line of debate, so removed it myself)

starkerealm

Sange13 wrote: »

...2004
..-1995
_______
.........9

..."two decades apart"

*does the math*

*does different math*

NO WAIT, TAKE THAT BACK! There's no way 1995 was 25 years ago!

*Screams in old person*

Earthewen

khajiitNPC wrote: »

@Sange13 must be nice to live in a delusional world. No one said all trolling was racist/sexist/harassment. I listed very specific examples of “trolling”, that is not okay.

And yes, it’s not up to me to tell them, they are free to do what they want, but if they are being racist, sexually harassing people, being overtly offensive, then they get reported and they brought it on themselves. So kindly grow up.

My original post really wasn't even thinking about these obvious things. Of course, everything you mention above is WRONG to say. Racism, sexual harassment, and bigotry is never acceptable.

But there are some gray areas that we all know exist, like when people get frustrated with someone or something for example. I think sometimes we are way to quick to call something offensive just because we don't like what the other person said or how they presented it. It is the gray area that become dangerous if we start trying to control it and what things mean to each person. I'm not making excuses for bad behavior and people who are displaying bad behavior consistently as stated above, but about the people who might say something we didn't want to hear. We just shut them up as fast as possible. What they said could be right and truthful, but we didn't like it or heard it through the lens of our own experience. We just either shout them down or try to silence them. I think sometimes we lose sight of this, and that brings about an environment where people will never grow. Not everything has to be stated "pleasantly" when dealing with hard topics that make us uncomfortable.

starkerealm

khajiitNPC wrote: »

And yes, it’s not up to me to tell them, they are free to do what they want, but if they are being racist, sexually harassing people, being overtly offensive, then they get reported and they brought it on themselves. So kindly grow up.

In my experience, the in game staff deal with these very harshly.

Sange13

Earthewen wrote: »

khajiitNPC wrote: »

@Sange13 must be nice to live in a delusional world. No one said all trolling was racist/sexist/harassment. I listed very specific examples of “trolling”, that is not okay.

And yes, it’s not up to me to tell them, they are free to do what they want, but if they are being racist, sexually harassing people, being overtly offensive, then they get reported and they brought it on themselves. So kindly grow up.

My original post really wasn't even thinking about these obvious things. Of course, everything you mention above is WRONG to say. Racism, sexual harassment, and bigotry is never acceptable.

I'm not saying that those things are okay either. I just take exception with the idea that we should be trying to tattle to Big Brother game devs to settle something that you can easily handle yourself--especially with an ignore list. The problem with trying to police behavior is that they almost always use overly broad definitions to justify actioning something, and they are overly broad for fear of missing something they think ought to be actionable, and the broad definitions are broadened ever wider to accommodate behaviors that aren't even that bad nor originally intended to be actionable--in short, they inevitably create slippery slopes. We can look at how these things have been handled in ever more strict, heavy-handed ways across the last couple decades of online gaming and see that it is still continuing on that trend. My main point is that we should reign those controls in quite a lot and only moderate the stuff that is truly, objectively disruptive to the game overall--not just one user's subjective experience.

Glurin

khajiitNPC wrote: »

@Earthewen

People know when they are being offensive.

No, not anymore. Kinda hard to tell when just about anything and everything could be considered offensive enough to someone to warrant action of some kind.

redlink1979

Zone chats aren't supervised as this forum is, that's why you can read so much stupid stuff while you play...

xXMeowMeowXx

Gives out some extra >HugS<

People tend to pay more attention to negative people and actions then all the nice ones. If things cross the line, be sure to take the appropriate measures and report.

It is best to put more focus on the positive players and moments I have found, imo.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

most other mmo's employ game masters to help ingame and police them and they are visible

Sange13

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

most other mmo's employ game masters to help ingame and police them and they are visible

They do this at first, but quickly dial them back and let them go after a few months. In-game GMs almost always eventually make these issues worse because they either (a) become too expensive to keep on and have to manage or (b) they are volunteer based and their egos get in the way. Seen it across several dozen MMOs.

Also, "other games do X thing that sucks, so we should too" isn't a persuasive point, imo.

Nogawd

Kind of ironic, I left a guild that the OP was in because their GM had a really bad attitude towards people.

Earthewen

@alainjbrennanb16_ESO that is the material point. We used to see in-game GMs all the time. Now there are none and that is probably just as well. At least over there we don't have to be all PC all the time in order to not get silenced.

Earthewen

Sange13 wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

khajiitNPC wrote: »

@Sange13 must be nice to live in a delusional world. No one said all trolling was racist/sexist/harassment. I listed very specific examples of “trolling”, that is not okay.

And yes, it’s not up to me to tell them, they are free to do what they want, but if they are being racist, sexually harassing people, being overtly offensive, then they get reported and they brought it on themselves. So kindly grow up.

My original post really wasn't even thinking about these obvious things. Of course, everything you mention above is WRONG to say. Racism, sexual harassment, and bigotry is never acceptable.

I'm not saying that those things are okay either. I just take exception with the idea that we should be trying to tattle to Big Brother game devs to settle something that you can easily handle yourself--especially with an ignore list. The problem with trying to police behavior is that they almost always use overly broad definitions to justify actioning something, and they are overly broad for fear of missing something they think ought to be actionable, and the broad definitions are broadened ever wider to accommodate behaviors that aren't even that bad nor originally intended to be actionable--in short, they inevitably create slippery slopes. We can look at how these things have been handled in ever more strict, heavy-handed ways across the last couple decades of online gaming and see that it is still continuing on that trend. My main point is that we should reign those controls in quite a lot and only moderate the stuff that is truly, objectively disruptive to the game overall--not just one user's subjective experience.

I completely agree with your point. I think that is part of the problem to be honest. In one venue, political correctness will rule the day and a heavy hand is used for any inkling of an infraction. The control freaks are all about silencing the voices they don't WANT to hear regardless of how information or opinions are presented. It's the information that itself that ends up getting shut down instead of HOW the information was shared.

I find this very alarming. Both venues are public forums but are privately owned. Private companies are allowed to do as they wish and that is the bottom line. However, it is a sad state of our society today that says, "You can't have that opinion. You can't share that opinion. It offends me that you have that opinion. Shut up!"

Deathlord92

Kadoin wrote: »

PvP is a toxic place...

Pve can be very toxic as well to my surprise.

ZOS_RogerJ

Remember, as a few posts have been removed or edited, that it’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread.

Sgrug

Glurin wrote: »

khajiitNPC wrote: »

@Earthewen

People know when they are being offensive.

No, not anymore. Kinda hard to tell when just about anything and everything could be considered offensive enough to someone to warrant action of some kind.

QFT

Anything can get you banned or called in for harassment, there is literally no way to know anymore what offends someone. Here is the kicker, if I give an honest opinion using plain language with no colorful comments of why that is, my post will still be reported by numerous offended individuals and I will get suspended.

Welcome to the culture of the perpetually aggrieved.

Used to be we would stay sticks and stone can break my bones but names will never hurt me. Now just a look causes some to go fetal and cry assault