Trolling Inside Game

Earthewen

Without discussing any disciplinary actions as that is against the TOS, I would like to comment on the amount of toxic behavior that is allowed inside game and compare it to what happens in the forums. I feel like we have two extremes going on here. Am I the only one?

robertthebard

The forums are policed at regular intervals, but the posts, unlike game dialog, don't go away in a few minutes. In order to police chat they would have to have someone logged in that can read every zone, every minute of every day. So maybe it's more unreasonable expectations?

I'm not even going to go into what's considered toxic, because someone could consider "Hey man, what's up" as toxic, while someone else, like me, who grew up with "*** you" as the same thing as good morning, may not see anything toxic or offensive.

Earthewen

robertthebard wrote: »

The forums are policed at regular intervals, but the posts, unlike game dialog, don't go away in a few minutes. In order to police chat they would have to have someone logged in that can read every zone, every minute of every day. So maybe it's more unreasonable expectations?

I'm not even going to go into what's considered toxic, because someone could consider "Hey man, what's up" as toxic, while someone else, like me, who grew up with "*** you" as the same thing as good morning, may not see anything toxic or offensive.

robertthebard wrote: »

The forums are policed at regular intervals, but the posts, unlike game dialog, don't go away in a few minutes. In order to police chat they would have to have someone logged in that can read every zone, every minute of every day. So maybe it's more unreasonable expectations?

I'm not even going to go into what's considered toxic, because someone could consider "Hey man, what's up" as toxic, while someone else, like me, who grew up with "*** you" as the same thing as good morning, may not see anything toxic or offensive.

LOL I think that is really true. My problem is that is moderation now policing? I can totally see it when someone is completely out of line, but the expression of frustrations seems to be a taboo subject if expressed strongly albeit not pointed at other players.

robertthebard

Earthewen wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

The forums are policed at regular intervals, but the posts, unlike game dialog, don't go away in a few minutes. In order to police chat they would have to have someone logged in that can read every zone, every minute of every day. So maybe it's more unreasonable expectations?

I'm not even going to go into what's considered toxic, because someone could consider "Hey man, what's up" as toxic, while someone else, like me, who grew up with "*** you" as the same thing as good morning, may not see anything toxic or offensive.

robertthebard wrote: »

The forums are policed at regular intervals, but the posts, unlike game dialog, don't go away in a few minutes. In order to police chat they would have to have someone logged in that can read every zone, every minute of every day. So maybe it's more unreasonable expectations?

I'm not even going to go into what's considered toxic, because someone could consider "Hey man, what's up" as toxic, while someone else, like me, who grew up with "*** you" as the same thing as good morning, may not see anything toxic or offensive.

LOL I think that is really true. My problem is that is moderation now policing? I can totally see it when someone is completely out of line, but the expression of frustrations seems to be a taboo subject if expressed strongly albeit not pointed at other players.

I blame not enough coffee for using policing instead of moderating, and will now go get some more.

Indoril_Nerevar

Earthewen wrote: »

Without discussing any disciplinary actions as that is against the TOS, I would like to comment on the amount of toxic behavior that is allowed inside game and compare it to what happens in the forums. I feel like we have two extremes going on here. Am I the only one?

I am here. Relax.


You are NOT the only one. Be patient. Keep looking for compatible players. Reach out.

There are very few. And many more are paranoid of others around them being up to no good. Do not blame everyone. Do not blame yourself.

You are right. It is a serious issue. Has been since MSN and Facebook were established😂

Stay strong. Keep speaking out. We need it.

Kadoin

PvP is a toxic place...

Sange13

Earthewen wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

The forums are policed at regular intervals, but the posts, unlike game dialog, don't go away in a few minutes. In order to police chat they would have to have someone logged in that can read every zone, every minute of every day. So maybe it's more unreasonable expectations?

I'm not even going to go into what's considered toxic, because someone could consider "Hey man, what's up" as toxic, while someone else, like me, who grew up with "*** you" as the same thing as good morning, may not see anything toxic or offensive.

robertthebard wrote: »

The forums are policed at regular intervals, but the posts, unlike game dialog, don't go away in a few minutes. In order to police chat they would have to have someone logged in that can read every zone, every minute of every day. So maybe it's more unreasonable expectations?

I'm not even going to go into what's considered toxic, because someone could consider "Hey man, what's up" as toxic, while someone else, like me, who grew up with "*** you" as the same thing as good morning, may not see anything toxic or offensive.

LOL I think that is really true. My problem is that is moderation now policing? I can totally see it when someone is completely out of line, but the expression of frustrations seems to be a taboo subject if expressed strongly albeit not pointed at other players.

Yes, moderation is policing when it's done by one to another. It shouldn't even be called moderation, because that is what one practices oneself. Personally, I've seen enough of this crap in games. Players have an ignore function, they can manage their own problems. I have yet to see a game become better as a result of giving the players the ability to go tattle to Momma Dev. In fact, I have seen some games become substantially worse (League of Legends, Battlefield series, several MMOs, etc).

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

Indoril_Nerevar wrote: »

...
You are right. It is a serious issue. Has been since MSN and Facebook were established😂
...[/b]

Those two platforms were launched almost two decades apart, in 1995 and 2004, respectively.

Young people these days. Also, get off my lawn!

I do agree with the general sentiment, though. The problem with the Internet is that there are people on it, and not all people are nice.

Sange13

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

Indoril_Nerevar wrote: »

...
You are right. It is a serious issue. Has been since MSN and Facebook were established😂
...[/b]

Those two platforms were launched almost two decades apart, in 1995 and 2004, respectively.

Young people these days. Also, get off my lawn!

I do agree with the general sentiment, though. The problem with the Internet is that there are people on it, and not all people are nice.

...2004
..-1995
_______
.........9

..."two decades apart"

max_only

If only the ignore option prevented you from being grouped with them like in dungeon finder. And even better, reduce the likelihood of being in the same phase.
Or if the ignore option showed you as offline to that person if you happen to be in the same guild (personally I would leave if this ever happened but for some people trade guilds are SRS BZNS)
Ignore works well for text based trolling but there have been a few threads throughout the year that describe trolling by following the player in game.
In a different mmo, I tried a female character and immediately (Level 3) got a troll so I just logged off and played a different character nbd.
I’m not sure what kind of trolling op is talking about, but there are imperfect solutions out there and this is as good a place as any to discuss a more comprehensive solution.

Earthewen

I am astonished, though, that the forums are held so tightly by the throat and nothing is done in game. I mean, I kinda get it that it would be hard to control the game zone chats, and Ignore is always an option.

Raudgrani

robertthebard wrote: »

The forums are policed at regular intervals, but the posts, unlike game dialog, don't go away in a few minutes. In order to police chat they would have to have someone logged in that can read every zone, every minute of every day. So maybe it's more unreasonable expectations?

I'm not even going to go into what's considered toxic, because someone could consider "Hey man, what's up" as toxic, while someone else, like me, who grew up with "*** you" as the same thing as good morning, may not see anything toxic or offensive.

Well, there should be an option to report specific comments "in-game", just easy like that. I'm not a very sensitive guy, and I'm against this constant tolerance this and respect that, be kind there and be friendly there - but some people are just too much. Being very personal and hostile, or like political extremism in area chats etc. Some people don't want to think of and see all that, that's even why some people even play the game I guess.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

There are plenty of nice people out there in the game just take time to find them and play with them.

The forum isn't the best place to find 'friendly content' at the moment vis à vis de state of the game it has become complaint central, which is it's role in a sense...customer feedback/support etc/acknowledgement of bugs.

Forum admins already censors a lot of content and sometimes not necessarily the 'toxic' stuff.

Make sure to read emotes when reading someone's comments as not everything is 1st degree and humour exists folks, it truly does!

Earthewen

Raudgrani wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

The forums are policed at regular intervals, but the posts, unlike game dialog, don't go away in a few minutes. In order to police chat they would have to have someone logged in that can read every zone, every minute of every day. So maybe it's more unreasonable expectations?

I'm not even going to go into what's considered toxic, because someone could consider "Hey man, what's up" as toxic, while someone else, like me, who grew up with "*** you" as the same thing as good morning, may not see anything toxic or offensive.

Well, there should be an option to report specific comments "in-game", just easy like that. I'm not a very sensitive guy, and I'm against this constant tolerance this and respect that, be kind there and be friendly there - but some people are just too much. Being very personal and hostile, or like political extremism in area chats etc. Some people don't want to think of and see all that, that's even why some people even play the game I guess.

Well said, and I would agree. I don't really like shutting down free speech as I am not all that sensitive either. But at what point does it become shutting down free speech?

Sange13

Raudgrani wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

The forums are policed at regular intervals, but the posts, unlike game dialog, don't go away in a few minutes. In order to police chat they would have to have someone logged in that can read every zone, every minute of every day. So maybe it's more unreasonable expectations?

I'm not even going to go into what's considered toxic, because someone could consider "Hey man, what's up" as toxic, while someone else, like me, who grew up with "*** you" as the same thing as good morning, may not see anything toxic or offensive.

Well, there should be an option to report specific comments "in-game", just easy like that. I'm not a very sensitive guy, and I'm against this constant tolerance this and respect that, be kind there and be friendly there - but some people are just too much. Being very personal and hostile, or like political extremism in area chats etc. Some people don't want to think of and see all that, that's even why some people even play the game I guess.

Absolutely not. Reporting should *only* before breaking ToS or cheating. Period. Everything else is interpersonal BS and should be handled at that level.

beadabow

I agree, there is a lot of in-game trolling. Some of it harmless, some of it is unlawful in some countries. Examples of players breaking laws are using hate speech against certain groups of people and cyber-bullying. I do ignore these players, and have reported some in the past with screenshots of what was said in zone chat. Ignoring the offensive players helps clean up a lot of the immersion killing BS that gets said in zone for me, at least.

I also get the feeling that these trolling/bullying players, who feel some sort of ego boost by spouting off their hate speech, are few and far between. The main offenders are either all unable to spell, or the same person on different accounts- evidenced by close similarities in speech patterns and dyslexic words. Ignoring them nine times is pretty easy on my part. I imagine after getting banned and having to set up a new account twenty times, they might, MIGHT, get tired of running their mouths in zone chat and find some other means of boosting their egos. All the while, more and more players ignoring them until the only person that gives them an ear is...themselves.

So, to the perpetrators that engage in this sort of behavior: happy trolling yourself in the mirror. No one listens to you anymore. You are all alone in the world surrounded by the oblivious objects of your derision.

Earthewen

Here is the thing though guys. There is such a thing as common decency. That is the material point. Expressing your frustration about aspects of the game doesn't come under the heading of any kind of hate speech or anything like that. So at what point do you block trolls? How do you determine when someone is a troll and worthy of blocking and someone who is "having a bad day" (or month or year?)

Rave the Histborn

Earthewen wrote: »

Without discussing any disciplinary actions as that is against the TOS, I would like to comment on the amount of toxic behavior that is allowed inside game and compare it to what happens in the forums. I feel like we have two extremes going on here. Am I the only one?

Yes

Starlock

I have seen WAY more problematic behavior on these forums than I've seen in game. By several orders of magnitude. I can probably count on one hand the number of cases I've seen problematic behavior in the game. Where are you going and what are you doing that you run into this often? Serious question.

Earthewen

Starlock wrote: »

I have seen WAY more problematic behavior on these forums than I've seen in game. By several orders of magnitude. I can probably count on one hand the number of cases I've seen problematic behavior in the game. Where are you going and what are you doing that you run into this often? Serious question.

Usually in Cyro. LOL I know it's common there, but I think adults can usually deal with it okay. I'm a little more concerned now about people who are being accused of being trolls in the forums who aren't really. They might have a legit complaint about something and are pretty much getting told to shut up about it. I think it's not fair to be honest.

Nanfoodle

22 years of MMOing and public chat will always be a mess. Its rarely worth looking at.

Malmai

Everbody wants to get shield from mods etc... I wonder where people go for shield in real life? Mom? Dad? Police? Saying he told me that cuff him hes toxic haha? Smart people can ignore and block. Running mouth at toxic person just makes you double toxic and will trigger just more toxicity...

MEBengalsFan2001

Kadoin wrote: »

PvP is a toxic place...

PVE is also toxic. Try a random vet lately?

justaquickword

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

PvP is a toxic place...

PVE is also toxic. Try a random vet lately?

^ and this too

Ryath_Waylander

Sange13 wrote: »

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

Indoril_Nerevar wrote: »

...
You are right. It is a serious issue. Has been since MSN and Facebook were established😂
...[/b]

Those two platforms were launched almost two decades apart, in 1995 and 2004, respectively.

Young people these days. Also, get off my lawn!

I do agree with the general sentiment, though. The problem with the Internet is that there are people on it, and not all people are nice.

...2004
..-1995
_______
.........9

..."two decades apart"

How about... two different Centuries?

CASP3R421

beadabow wrote: »

I agree, there is a lot of in-game trolling. Some of it harmless, some of it is unlawful in some countries. Examples of players breaking laws are using hate speech against certain groups of people and cyber-bullying. I do ignore these players, and have reported some in the past with screenshots of what was said in zone chat. Ignoring the offensive players helps clean up a lot of the immersion killing BS that gets said in zone for me, at least.

I also get the feeling that these trolling/bullying players, who feel some sort of ego boost by spouting off their hate speech, are few and far between. The main offenders are either all unable to spell, or the same person on different accounts- evidenced by close similarities in speech patterns and dyslexic words. Ignoring them nine times is pretty easy on my part. I imagine after getting banned and having to set up a new account twenty times, they might, MIGHT, get tired of running their mouths in zone chat and find some other means of boosting their egos. All the while, more and more players ignoring them until the only person that gives them an ear is...themselves.

So, to the perpetrators that engage in this sort of behavior: happy trolling yourself in the mirror. No one listens to you anymore. You are all alone in the world surrounded by the oblivious objects of your derision.

tldr

ZOS_FalcoYamaoka

​Greetings,

We had to remove some posts as it violated our rules involving baiting and bashing. Please be sure to keep discussions civil and constructive​. Upon reading some of your comments, we again remind everyone that if your feedback is directed towards a specific person/group of people in a derogatory manner (whether intentional or not), it stops being objective and will need to be moderated.

For example "I do not like the animation cancelling ability in the game" versus "How could the devs possibly think animation cancelling should remain the way it is, I mean do they even think?".

If you have any questions about the actions being taken, please take a moment to review our community rules here.

khajiitNPC

Freedom of speech does not equal freedom from consequence. Nor does anyone have to put up with someone’s abusive behavior. Don’t like that you got reported for saying offensive things?

Stop being offensive. Simple as that. It’s call decency and being virtuous. Which I know are empty words to those who are the followers of subjectivity. I know it’s hard to understand when we are living in an age of alternate facts, and “truth isn’t truth”. And I know so many think they are being edgy and rebellious, hopefully you grow out of that some day.

Raudgrani

Sange13 wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

The forums are policed at regular intervals, but the posts, unlike game dialog, don't go away in a few minutes. In order to police chat they would have to have someone logged in that can read every zone, every minute of every day. So maybe it's more unreasonable expectations?

I'm not even going to go into what's considered toxic, because someone could consider "Hey man, what's up" as toxic, while someone else, like me, who grew up with "*** you" as the same thing as good morning, may not see anything toxic or offensive.

Well, there should be an option to report specific comments "in-game", just easy like that. I'm not a very sensitive guy, and I'm against this constant tolerance this and respect that, be kind there and be friendly there - but some people are just too much. Being very personal and hostile, or like political extremism in area chats etc. Some people don't want to think of and see all that, that's even why some people even play the game I guess.

Absolutely not. Reporting should *only* before breaking ToS or cheating. Period. Everything else is interpersonal BS and should be handled at that level.

Well, threats, blatant racism and bullying IS "break ToS". So I don't really know what you are trying to say? It's not like it's helping anyone in any way if some people spam a hundred lines of same racist slurs, or go on and on about how someone sucks. Maybe not so usual in PVE areas, but in PVP it's not been uncommon. For some reason a few AD guys had the idea that I was non-white, and started some weird racist bullying posse towards me in EP area chat in Cyrodiil. I mean wtf., it's just wrong in every imaginable way, let alone the fact that I'm as white as a native Swede can ever get.

But that's "interpersonal" according to you, I suppose?

Earthewen

khajiitNPC wrote: »

Freedom of speech does not equal freedom from consequence. Nor does anyone have to put up with someone’s abusive behavior. Don’t like that you got reported for saying offensive things?

Stop being offensive. Simple as that. It’s call decency and being virtuous. Which I know are empty words to those who are the followers of subjectivity. I know it’s hard to understand when we are living in an age of alternate facts, and “truth isn’t truth”. And I know so many think they are being edgy and rebellious, hopefully you grow out of that some day.

However, I'm wondering if we have started saying something is offensive when in actuality, we just don't like it because it hit too close to home for our comfort. I totally believe in consequences, but consequences should fit the deed or words.

I think what I'm headed for is an understanding that natural discourse of differing opinions should never be shut down or discouraged. What should be discouraged is when common decency is devoid in the conversation. TBH, there are a lot of shades of gray when dealing with rules and people. The "Law" would be black and white. But when dealing with human beings, especially when over the internet, there is a lot that can be taken the wrong way over text.

90% of our communication as humans is done through facial expression and body language. This is a scientific fact. We don't have that here so we usually read people's comments through the lens of our own thoughts and emotions. You can always tell a new moderator when they react to something emotionally due to this fact. It's easy to take things the wrong way.

Earthewen

ZOS_FelipeF wrote: »

​Greetings,

We had to remove some posts as it violated our rules involving baiting and bashing. Please be sure to keep discussions civil and constructive​. Upon reading some of your comments, we again remind everyone that if your feedback is directed towards a specific person/group of people in a derogatory manner (whether intentional or not), it stops being objective and will need to be moderated.

For example "I do not like the animation cancelling ability in the game" versus "How could the devs possibly think animation cancelling should remain the way it is, I mean do they even think?".

If you have any questions about the actions being taken, please take a moment to review our community rules here.

I agree with the above example given about the devs. As I said just above this response, when you are dealing with human emotions the water can get muddied. Totally easy to take things the wrong way when read through the lens of our own experiences and emotions. The second example is one I've seen multiple times. I think things like that can be written out of frustration so it helps to have the examples given.

Humans always look for someone to blame for the bad things they experience. I'm pretty sure it can come across in text as well.