Animation Cancelling

out51d3r

Gorgoneus wrote: »

Jthere is no ingame hints or tutorials about it, and I guess this is not so easy to perform - BECAUSE IT IS BUG!

Actually, there's a loading screen hint that explains the mechanic. They don't call it animation cancelling(that's a community created term, not a ZOS one), but it's clearly what they are referring to.



At this point, they intend the mechanic to be a part of the game, and they support it's use. If it was a bug originally, it is no longer one. For those of you that don't know, combos in Street Fighter 2 were also an unintended design. You could cancel a basic attack into a special attack, "comboing" them together, just like what is called "animation cancelling" in ESO. Like ESO, the developers recognized the potential and left it in when they became aware of it. Those combos are one of the biggest reasons Street Fighter got so big, and why it spawned an entire genre.

Animation cancelling isn't even actually hard. People make this out to be way bigger than it is. Instead of just hitting your hotkey, click your left mouse button then press the hotkey a fraction of a second later. Anybody with decent gaming skills, or typing skills, or the ability to play a musical instrument should have 0 problem with this the moment they understand it. The only way this will hurt your hands is if you are using one of those garbage mmo mice. You should be doing the left click with one hand, and the hotkey activation with the other. Like I said, it's not really that different than mechanics common in many other games, that different than typing a capital letter by pressing shift with a finger on one hand then pressing the letter with your other hand, or fretting a guitar string with a finger on one hand while you pluck it with the other hand.

This is not the terrible burden people make it out to be.

D0PAMINE

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I have severe arthritis in my hands and wrists. The more movements and button-mashing I must do the more my hands hurt. Having to do Animation Canceling for decent DPS just makes this game that much harder and painful for me if I want to do anything like pvp or group-oriented.

Reasons like this is why the devs need to remove weaving and animation cancelling because not everyone is created equal. Also, the more movements with your hands the more likely you are to have a wrist or hand injury. Time for a change to the game mechanics for the safety and health of the consumer.

You can literally damage your hands and wrists using a computer. No. Core gameplay mechanics should NOT be removed.

Universe

Amarthiul wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

There are many players who have 50-70 latency on this server, they have approx. 0.8-1 second advantage over me(or more)

100ms is 0.1 seconds, not 1 second.

Universe wrote: »

I still do fine dps, but ofc that I'm doing less dps than same skill players who live near the server.

Anecdotally I've not found much difference between anything up to 200ms, at which point it does become more difficult to weave reliably. YMMV obviously.

The difference in latency adds up and make it noticeable.
Yes, I know it's milliseconds, but generally the impact to DPS tends to be huge.
In the time lost I lose 1 ability and Light attack in most of my rotations(the higher ping messes the weaving up).

mairwen85 wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

My vote is: Undecided.

While animation canceling is a fun mechanic while playing it is subject to exploiting since the game itself isn't limiting enough the potential of it.
Those who have an amazing latency can do great with it and those who have a somewhat poor latency will have hard time accomplishing it.

My average latency on PC EU is between 120-150, occasional lag spikes to 180-210*.
It used to be lower many months ago, before the "performance" updates.
There are many players who have 50-70 latency on this server, they have approx. 0.8-1 second advantage over me(or more)
I still do fine dps, but ofc that I'm doing less dps than same skill players who live near the server.

I play with 200ms ping and my weave ratio is 0.7-0.8. Latency may influence your weave slightly, but 1 second gcd is a 1 second gcd. I can still do 3 actions (light attack, skill, barswap/bash/block/roll) in 1 second, 200ms apart, even 300ms apart. A player with lower ping, has longer to wait between skills as they have a greater remainder of the cooldown after using their quick finger reflexes, but weaving is still achievable within the same window whether your ping is 50 or 350. In fact, most people I speak to who have issues with this are on a much better connection than me, and their issue is usually that they are trying too hard to go too fast...

My light attacks per second are 0.8-0.95 in ideal conditions.
Though usually due to lag/lag spikes it can drop to 0.5 or even lower than that.
Sometimes I find myself in 600-999+ ping spikes even in front of my training dummy and my character is just frozen until my client catches up.

The GCD is true when there aren't extreme situations of lag messing up the rotations.

Bradyfjord

For animation canceling to be a factor, our abilities need to activate when we press our keys.
How can we animation cancel when we don't even know if our abilities go off?
How can we have an opinion (for or against) animation canceling in the current state of the game?

Universe

Bradyfjord wrote: »

For animation canceling to be a factor, our abilities need to activate when we press our keys.
How can we animation cancel when we don't even know if our abilities go off?
How can we have an opinion (for or against) animation canceling in the current state of the game?

That's true.
It sometimes seems that even when I have a somewhat stable latency my abilities don't even fire half the time in the comfort of my house & training dummy

mairwen85

Universe wrote: »

Amarthiul wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

There are many players who have 50-70 latency on this server, they have approx. 0.8-1 second advantage over me(or more)

100ms is 0.1 seconds, not 1 second.

Universe wrote: »

I still do fine dps, but ofc that I'm doing less dps than same skill players who live near the server.

Anecdotally I've not found much difference between anything up to 200ms, at which point it does become more difficult to weave reliably. YMMV obviously.

The difference in latency adds up and make it noticeable.
Yes, I know it's milliseconds, but generally the impact to DPS tends to be huge.
In the time lost I lose 1 ability and Light attack in most of my rotations(the higher ping messes the weaving up).

mairwen85 wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

My vote is: Undecided.

While animation canceling is a fun mechanic while playing it is subject to exploiting since the game itself isn't limiting enough the potential of it.
Those who have an amazing latency can do great with it and those who have a somewhat poor latency will have hard time accomplishing it.

My average latency on PC EU is between 120-150, occasional lag spikes to 180-210*.
It used to be lower many months ago, before the "performance" updates.
There are many players who have 50-70 latency on this server, they have approx. 0.8-1 second advantage over me(or more)
I still do fine dps, but ofc that I'm doing less dps than same skill players who live near the server.

I play with 200ms ping and my weave ratio is 0.7-0.8. Latency may influence your weave slightly, but 1 second gcd is a 1 second gcd. I can still do 3 actions (light attack, skill, barswap/bash/block/roll) in 1 second, 200ms apart, even 300ms apart. A player with lower ping, has longer to wait between skills as they have a greater remainder of the cooldown after using their quick finger reflexes, but weaving is still achievable within the same window whether your ping is 50 or 350. In fact, most people I speak to who have issues with this are on a much better connection than me, and their issue is usually that they are trying too hard to go too fast...

My light attacks per second are 0.8-0.95 in ideal conditions.
Though usually due to lag/lag spikes it can drop to 0.5 or even lower than that.
Sometimes I find myself in 600-999+ ping spikes even in front of my training dummy and my character is just frozen until my client catches up.

The GCD is true when there aren't extreme situations of lag messing up the rotations.

spikes and fluctuations will mess you up, but a stable connection at high latency isn't an issue for weaving; we're talking 2 separate issues.

Universe

mairwen85 wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Amarthiul wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

There are many players who have 50-70 latency on this server, they have approx. 0.8-1 second advantage over me(or more)

100ms is 0.1 seconds, not 1 second.

Universe wrote: »

I still do fine dps, but ofc that I'm doing less dps than same skill players who live near the server.

Anecdotally I've not found much difference between anything up to 200ms, at which point it does become more difficult to weave reliably. YMMV obviously.

The difference in latency adds up and make it noticeable.
Yes, I know it's milliseconds, but generally the impact to DPS tends to be huge.
In the time lost I lose 1 ability and Light attack in most of my rotations(the higher ping messes the weaving up).

mairwen85 wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

My vote is: Undecided.

While animation canceling is a fun mechanic while playing it is subject to exploiting since the game itself isn't limiting enough the potential of it.
Those who have an amazing latency can do great with it and those who have a somewhat poor latency will have hard time accomplishing it.

My average latency on PC EU is between 120-150, occasional lag spikes to 180-210*.
It used to be lower many months ago, before the "performance" updates.
There are many players who have 50-70 latency on this server, they have approx. 0.8-1 second advantage over me(or more)
I still do fine dps, but ofc that I'm doing less dps than same skill players who live near the server.

I play with 200ms ping and my weave ratio is 0.7-0.8. Latency may influence your weave slightly, but 1 second gcd is a 1 second gcd. I can still do 3 actions (light attack, skill, barswap/bash/block/roll) in 1 second, 200ms apart, even 300ms apart. A player with lower ping, has longer to wait between skills as they have a greater remainder of the cooldown after using their quick finger reflexes, but weaving is still achievable within the same window whether your ping is 50 or 350. In fact, most people I speak to who have issues with this are on a much better connection than me, and their issue is usually that they are trying too hard to go too fast...

My light attacks per second are 0.8-0.95 in ideal conditions.
Though usually due to lag/lag spikes it can drop to 0.5 or even lower than that.
Sometimes I find myself in 600-999+ ping spikes even in front of my training dummy and my character is just frozen until my client catches up.

The GCD is true when there aren't extreme situations of lag messing up the rotations.

spikes and fluctuations will mess you up, but a stable connection at high latency isn't an issue for weaving; we're talking 2 separate issues.

It will depend on the high latency.
It is an issue for weaving if it gets high enough.

Tigerseye

Raudgrani wrote: »

You don't like it, then don't do it.

No, that is not how it works in games [Snip]

If you want to be, even vaguely, competitive you have to do it.

The point is, even if you have to do it to compete, that doesn't mean you have to like it, or approve of it.

[Edited for bait]

MilkJugg24

I am not opposed to animation cancelling, as I think it's just ESO's take on what other games consider to be "auto-attack".

However, I do wish that players weren't required to utilize these for every skill. If I'm using a two-handed mace, I want to feel like my attacks hit slower and do more damage, not feel like a basic slap in the face like every other weapon in the game. Animation cancelling in its current state doesn't feel that bad. But it could definitely be better with some extra level of depth to the weapon class system.

I do though like the idea of manually aimed attacks being the alternative solution for (what would otherwise be) auto-attacks.

Tigerseye

D0PAMINE wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I have severe arthritis in my hands and wrists. The more movements and button-mashing I must do the more my hands hurt. Having to do Animation Canceling for decent DPS just makes this game that much harder and painful for me if I want to do anything like pvp or group-oriented.

Reasons like this is why the devs need to remove weaving and animation cancelling because not everyone is created equal. Also, the more movements with your hands the more likely you are to have a wrist or hand injury. Time for a change to the game mechanics for the safety and health of the consumer.

You can literally damage your hands and wrists using a computer. No. Core gameplay mechanics should NOT be removed.

Um, yes - yes you can.

RSI - sometimes to the extent people have to have operations to try to ease it.

Not to mention that it can cause other problems (like arthritis) and/or exascerbate pre-existing conditions.

I get that you love AC and that is your prerogative.

However, there is no point in pretending you don't know about things that, literally, everyone else in the world does, just to try to defend it.

ruengdet2515

For my ping always 350 - (500+ in dun/trial)
but sometime i can do AC.
so i can live with/without AC.

ck37090

Honestly, it never should have been part of the game in the first place. They should have made a statement from the start that they would fix it, but they chose the opposite. Not having it would actually make the game mechanics more important, rather than just by-passing them with dps. It would allow PvP players not at the elite level (which is the majority of the player base) to actually be able to see and maybe have a chance to defend against attacks. The people that most benefit from this mechanic are obviously going to vote against removing it (which is a larger population on the message forum), the people that find it difficult to deal with the unintended mechanic are obviously going to vote to remove it. The fact is the majority of the players would benefit from animation cancelling being removed, but a great majority of them are oblivious to any of this.

eso_lags

Gorgoneus wrote: »

Just let be clear - this is a bug, bug of this ancient game engine, but developers can't or won't fix it so they proclaimed it standard game mechanic.
Very nice mechanic I'd say, I don't know how to use it, there is no ingame hints or tutorials about it, and I guess this is not so easy to perform - BECAUSE IT IS BUG!

No. Just no. Its your fault if you dont know how to do it, there are plenty of other things you learn from experience. Just playing around with abilities should teach you about animation canceling. Its not a mechanic as much as it is just how the abilities and combat function.

Idk why people love to say this because even if it was true it still wouldnt matter. It has been like this since the start of the game, this is the style and flow the devs chose to go with and it has made the combat this games best feature imo. And its not something complicated that people cant learn, it requires slightly more effort than fighting without it.