Templar tank need selfheal

Solariken

Before they nerfed Empowering Sweep I thought Templar tank was pretty great. You had nice shield stacks with Radiant + DStance + Psijic and really high uptime on major + minor protection. I was able to keep myself healed under shields mostly using Master's SnB.

Now that major protection is gone healing is a huge struggle and those shields get popped way too fast.

But that's typical ZOS, kneejerk changes with no consideration for who it affects.

OG_Kaveman

None of your examples compare to not having a health based self heal. You can go through every single world, guild, weapon, armor or other skill lines and you will not find a generic version of a health based self heal.

umm...


http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Drain_Essence

Accelerating Drain:

Consume an enemy's life force, dealing 1782 Magic Damage and restoring 15% of your missing Health every 0.7 seconds for 3 seconds. After you finish draining, the enemy is stunned for 3 seconds. When the drain ends you gain Minor Expedition, increasing your Movement Speed by 10% for [17 / 18 / 19 / 20] seconds.

that is 30% of your missing health health in .7 seconds, one tick at the start and another tick at the .7 second mark.


and in the next patch it is getting better, it is going to be 23% of your missing health per tick and will return stam when you are channeling.

1. Templars do not have a direct damage class spammable, they have a cast time spammable that nobody uses (just like the sorc spammable) and a channeling spammable. So sorcs are not unique in that regard. But in fact both of them do have direct damage spammables - Force Pulse, Crushing Weapon and a bunch of other options through the various weapon skill lines.

sweeps is direct damage and is one of the best spammables in the game. every templar uses it and i really have no idea where you are getting the idea they dont. also, sweeps is not "cast time", it is a channel, very different mechanics.

2. Everyone does have access to minor berserk with 100% uptime, at least if they play stam (Camouflaged Hunter from Fighters Guild).

but none of that is in class, what the op is asking for, they are outside the class.

3. Nightblades do have a burst heal based on spell damage and max mag - combat prayer. If you build for healing, you have all of the tools you need for it, even on a NB.

NBs dont have that, everyone has that. come on, are you really trying.

Channeling skills are instantly disqualified because of the realities of how tanking works,

if you cant find .7 seconds to get 30% of your missing health back as a tank, 46% in the future, maybe just use another class. there are loads of other players doing the hardest content in the game on templar tank, if you need a class based percentage based heal to compare to them, maybe templars are not the class for you. and that is okay, not all classes are for everyone.

I don't get all the whataboutisms going on.

because if all classes had all the same skill, what would be the point of classes? "perfectly balanced " does not have to mean everyone is the same.

It's a necessity for tanks.

umm...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdVv_5Jc_uM&

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmG_y6Xqo_A

looks like he does just fine.

Iron_Blurr

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

None of your examples compare to not having a health based self heal. You can go through every single world, guild, weapon, armor or other skill lines and you will not find a generic version of a health based self heal.

umm...


http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Drain_Essence

Accelerating Drain:

Consume an enemy's life force, dealing 1782 Magic Damage and restoring 15% of your missing Health every 0.7 seconds for 3 seconds. After you finish draining, the enemy is stunned for 3 seconds. When the drain ends you gain Minor Expedition, increasing your Movement Speed by 10% for [17 / 18 / 19 / 20] seconds.

that is 30% of your missing health health in .7 seconds, one tick at the start and another tick at the .7 second mark.


and in the next patch it is getting better, it is going to be 23% of your missing health per tick and will return stam when you are channeling.

1. Templars do not have a direct damage class spammable, they have a cast time spammable that nobody uses (just like the sorc spammable) and a channeling spammable. So sorcs are not unique in that regard. But in fact both of them do have direct damage spammables - Force Pulse, Crushing Weapon and a bunch of other options through the various weapon skill lines.

sweeps is direct damage and is one of the best spammables in the game. every templar uses it and i really have no idea where you are getting the idea they dont. also, sweeps is not "cast time", it is a channel, very different mechanics.

2. Everyone does have access to minor berserk with 100% uptime, at least if they play stam (Camouflaged Hunter from Fighters Guild).

but none of that is in class, what the op is asking for, they are outside the class.

3. Nightblades do have a burst heal based on spell damage and max mag - combat prayer. If you build for healing, you have all of the tools you need for it, even on a NB.

NBs dont have that, everyone has that. come on, are you really trying.

Channeling skills are instantly disqualified because of the realities of how tanking works,

if you cant find .7 seconds to get 30% of your missing health back as a tank, 46% in the future, maybe just use another class. there are loads of other players doing the hardest content in the game on templar tank, if you need a class based percentage based heal to compare to them, maybe templars are not the class for you. and that is okay, not all classes are for everyone.

I don't get all the whataboutisms going on.

because if all classes had all the same skill, what would be the point of classes? "perfectly balanced " does not have to mean everyone is the same.

It's a necessity for tanks.

umm...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdVv_5Jc_uM&

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmG_y6Xqo_A

looks like he does just fine.

Vamp drain doesn't count. You cant block cast it so you are locked into an animation taking 50% more damage from not blocking. Also you get less health regen and take more fire damage on a vampire. Sounds exactly like what a tank needs to build for right??! Also everything they do will cost more resources just as a cherry on top. Oh and by the way that heal is MISSING health. Meaning if you run 45k health and are missing 25k your heal is based on the 25k health value. And unlike green dragon blood it's not a burst heal, cant be block casted and doesnt give you minor vitality or the resource regen or activate any relevant passives to help you.

Not to mention the fact that you are basically pigeonholing all templar tanks into being vampires because they HAVE to instead of WANT to like zos intended for these changes.
I'm speaking from experience here as a end game trials tank main with a dk, sorc, nb, warden, necro and templar tank. Templar tank sucks. Vamp drain also sucks. It was pretty much only ever used by tanks for the ultimate generation.
Also that video you linked is to nefas who is one of the best tanks in the game and even he struggled with playing a templar tank over any other class tank. There's a reason none of the best end game tanks main a Templar tank. In it's current state it's a joke. A meme. It's something you try once for the heck of it or to try and make a video for the novelty of tanking on a class that's so bad for the job as an added layer of difficulty.

xaraan

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

umm...

looks like he does just fine.

Bad examples.
TBF, the hardest thing about main tanking vAS+2 is staying awake. And vSS HM isn't crazy hard either once you get used to managing the breath, especially if you are guarded as he was.

BUT, the real reason it's not a great example is because tanking for very good teams is actually a lot easier than what you'll encounter on average in these runs (if you are already a good tank that is). I've filled for groups a lot better than our progression team and it's like a vacation. I don't say that as a knock, you still have to be good at your position and have the mechanics down and be dependable. But, anytime you are with a group that is able to complete the fight in about 1/3rd or less of the time than most groups average the amount of work you have to do as tank gets considerably easier. I'd also bet he's not doing his progression on that tank, but bringing him after the team has the trial down.

As I've said countless times in the thread. I've done those same HMs with my templar tank. Doesn't change the fact that when you do, you can feel the job is twice as hard as it is on better classes. You can feel what the class is lacking in the role.

OG_Kaveman

Vamp drain doesn't count.

it literally does though. you said "You can go through every single world, guild, weapon, armor or other skill lines and you will not find a generic version of a health based self heal.", that is clearly false, you might think "it sucks", but there is an option.

Also that video you linked is to nefas who is one of the best tanks in the game Also that video you linked is to nefas who is one of the best tanks in the game

so you are saying you are not good enough to tank without a health percentage heal but @Nefas is? that says more about you then the state of templar tanking.


@xaraan i hear what you are saying and i 100% agree with the fact if you have a good team, everything is easier but that just means the team around needs to be better then, that is your teams fault, not yours or the class, the example were just to show it can be done and done well without an in class percentage based heal, as nefas was using the percentage based heal from the s/b line in the vSS fight.

Iron_Blurr

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

Vamp drain doesn't count.

it literally does though. you said "You can go through every single world, guild, weapon, armor or other skill lines and you will not find a generic version of a health based self heal.", that is clearly false, you might think "it sucks", but there is an option.

Also that video you linked is to nefas who is one of the best tanks in the game Also that video you linked is to nefas who is one of the best tanks in the game

so you are saying you are not good enough to tank without a health percentage heal but @Nefas is? that says more about you then the state of templar tanking.

Ok let me break down the math for you. Let's say you have 50k max health. And you are missing 25k health. 20% of your missing health(25k) is 5k. There's your giant 5k heal per second while most other tanks get a heal based on the full 50k. 20% of 50k is 10k. 20% of 25% is 5k. Are you seeing the issue?? The heal is 50% as strong as any other tank would have. And to top it off you cant block cast it making you take 50% more damage and you have to be a vampire making you take more fire damage, lowering your health regen and making everything you do cost more than it should.
That argument is completely illogical. It's like saying a marathon runner can travel 20 miles on foot so people dont need cars. Just walk. After all here is this youtube example of this one guy walking 20 miles therefore everyone should be just fine walking everywhere they go. This example just shows how flawed that reasoning is. Templar should be brought in line with every other class tanks effectiveness. Even if you theoretically CAN do something, that doesn't mean it's good, fair or even worth doing.
I've seen YouTube videos of this guy with the world record holding his breath for 20 mins. Does that mean it's a safe, effective or logical thing to try? No not at all.

Edit: You know what.. It Ain't worth it. I've got enough bad karma

Drdeath20

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

Here let's try this a different way to drive the point home. If you guys are arguing that every class tank has strengths and weaknesses then please tell me what the strength of a templar tank is? What does a templar tank have that no other tank has that justifies them not having a health based self heal?
You might say minor fracture and breach but thats not true. Poisons can provide that and there are armor sets that provide those debuffs.
You might say they have access to an on demand purge but thats also not true. Any tank can run efficient purge and wardens have blue betty.
You could say they get minor protection from the aedric spear passive but every tank gets that from ransack or temporal guard.
You could say they get a group spear synergy but everyone can use orbs.
You could say they get a health based damage shield but dks get igneous and everyone can use defensive posture or bone shield.
So tell me what's the big secret here? What do templar tanks have that no other tank can get? What makes them so powerful that they have to be disqualified from having a health based self heal?
Maybe it's sucking the life out of corpses on the ground for your advantage? OH wait necros do that better.
Maybe it's rezing teammates faster? Oh wait necros do that better too..
Someone please tell me the secret potential of the templar tank.

This M'Fer be spitting!!!

xaraan

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

@xaraan i hear what you are saying and i 100% agree with the fact if you have a good team, everything is easier but that just means the team around needs to be better then, that is your teams fault, not yours or the class, the example were just to show it can be done and done well without an in class percentage based heal, as nefas was using the percentage based heal from the s/b line in the vSS fight.

Well, I disagree with that last part of it.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to always run with an awesome team, but my point was more to compare it to the other tank classes and how much better or worse it is based on that. Not to say that content cannot be done with it as some have said, but to point out how much harder it feels with that class vs. other classes. Or point out that it doesn't really bring much to the table as a tank vs. other classes. Templar is my favorite class and feeling like it's the last choice for tank leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

But if something feels considerably harder on Templar in the PvE tank role vs. every other class on tank, even with a team that's not great, it's worth note IMO. If I can run a DK tank with that same team and feel like I'm doing 1/10th of the work surviving, then it's an issue. Especially when you consider, on progression runs or with teams that aren't the best, having solid support can go a long way. So telling me that my templar tank is only useful with groups that are perfect is not a good thing.

In the end, I really don't see a need to not give templars a health based self heal when every other class has one. The main thing to address is to make sure you take a strong heal away from them in pvp so they can't stack both and using the self heal wouldn't be any different than just using their class heal now in pvp. It would literally only help them in PvE tanking if done right. And even then the class wouldn't be the best option in meta end game raids.

Drdeath20

Making praticed incarnation a pratical tanking ultimate and having solar disturbance provide some unique offensive buff would really be impactful and would have the least effect on already existing strong templar builds.

Iron_Blurr

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Making praticed incarnation a pratical tanking ultimate and having solar disturbance provide some unique offensive buff would really be impactful and would have the least effect on already existing strong templar builds.

Interesting idea but personally i would like to see an undaunted ultimate that has a tank morph and a healing morph that are alternatives to war horn and barrier. Supports really dont have many options when it comes to ultimate usage so im all for creating new ones but i dont really wana create another necro situation where major vulnerability is only available on one class forcing groups to run them or suffer a 30% loss in damage. Maybe they could make one of the templar ultimates a group based empower buff. Something like how solar barage grants empowered light attacks for the duration but it gives the buff to the whole group for 10 seconds and costs ~200 ult.
That sure would be cool

Iron_Blurr

xaraan wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

@xaraan i hear what you are saying and i 100% agree with the fact if you have a good team, everything is easier but that just means the team around needs to be better then, that is your teams fault, not yours or the class, the example were just to show it can be done and done well without an in class percentage based heal, as nefas was using the percentage based heal from the s/b line in the vSS fight.

Well, I disagree with that last part of it.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to always run with an awesome team, but my point was more to compare it to the other tank classes and how much better or worse it is based on that. Not to say that content cannot be done with it as some have said, but to point out how much harder it feels with that class vs. other classes. Or point out that it doesn't really bring much to the table as a tank vs. other classes. Templar is my favorite class and feeling like it's the last choice for tank leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

But if something feels considerably harder on Templar in the PvE tank role vs. every other class on tank, even with a team that's not great, it's worth note IMO. If I can run a DK tank with that same team and feel like I'm doing 1/10th of the work surviving, then it's an issue. Especially when you consider, on progression runs or with teams that aren't the best, having solid support can go a long way. So telling me that my templar tank is only useful with groups that are perfect is not a good thing.

In the end, I really don't see a need to not give templars a health based self heal when every other class has one. The main thing to address is to make sure you take a strong heal away from them in pvp so they can't stack both and using the self heal wouldn't be any different than just using their class heal now in pvp. It would literally only help them in PvE tanking if done right. And even then the class wouldn't be the best option in meta end game raids.

You know the more I think about this the more interesting the prospect becomes. Making it the other morph of breath of life would make a player have to choose between them kind of like how night blades have to choose either cloak or the healing dark cloak that gives a HoT and minor protection.
The only problem i see with his is the fact that healing ritual will still exist. And that heals for way more than either of those heals and also heals multiple targets nearby. I think healing ritual(the clap heal) needs a total rework. Templars dont need that many group heals and this one is super expensive and does the same thing breath of life does already. Maybe they could make it some kind of buff giving templar major brutality and sorcery or expedition since templar is also missing those buffs in their tool kit.

Drdeath20

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

@xaraan i hear what you are saying and i 100% agree with the fact if you have a good team, everything is easier but that just means the team around needs to be better then, that is your teams fault, not yours or the class, the example were just to show it can be done and done well without an in class percentage based heal, as nefas was using the percentage based heal from the s/b line in the vSS fight.

Well, I disagree with that last part of it.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to always run with an awesome team, but my point was more to compare it to the other tank classes and how much better or worse it is based on that. Not to say that content cannot be done with it as some have said, but to point out how much harder it feels with that class vs. other classes. Or point out that it doesn't really bring much to the table as a tank vs. other classes. Templar is my favorite class and feeling like it's the last choice for tank leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

But if something feels considerably harder on Templar in the PvE tank role vs. every other class on tank, even with a team that's not great, it's worth note IMO. If I can run a DK tank with that same team and feel like I'm doing 1/10th of the work surviving, then it's an issue. Especially when you consider, on progression runs or with teams that aren't the best, having solid support can go a long way. So telling me that my templar tank is only useful with groups that are perfect is not a good thing.

In the end, I really don't see a need to not give templars a health based self heal when every other class has one. The main thing to address is to make sure you take a strong heal away from them in pvp so they can't stack both and using the self heal wouldn't be any different than just using their class heal now in pvp. It would literally only help them in PvE tanking if done right. And even then the class wouldn't be the best option in meta end game raids.

You know the more I think about this the more interesting the prospect becomes. Making it the other morph of breath of life would make a player have to choose between them kind of like how night blades have to choose either cloak or the healing dark cloak that gives a HoT and minor protection.
The only problem i see with his is the fact that healing ritual will still exist. And that heals for way more than either of those heals and also heals multiple targets nearby. I think healing ritual(the clap heal) needs a total rework. Templars dont need that many group heals and this one is super expensive and does the same thing breath of life does already. Maybe they could make it some kind of buff giving templar major brutality and sorcery or expedition since templar is also missing those buffs in their tool kit.

The problem is that major sorcery/brutality is not very problematic especially with the changes to the alliance power potions now becoming equal to craftable potions.

I definitely agree with ya that healing ritual needs a complete overhaul along with eclipse, radiant aura and blazing shield.

Iron_Blurr

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

@xaraan i hear what you are saying and i 100% agree with the fact if you have a good team, everything is easier but that just means the team around needs to be better then, that is your teams fault, not yours or the class, the example were just to show it can be done and done well without an in class percentage based heal, as nefas was using the percentage based heal from the s/b line in the vSS fight.

Well, I disagree with that last part of it.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to always run with an awesome team, but my point was more to compare it to the other tank classes and how much better or worse it is based on that. Not to say that content cannot be done with it as some have said, but to point out how much harder it feels with that class vs. other classes. Or point out that it doesn't really bring much to the table as a tank vs. other classes. Templar is my favorite class and feeling like it's the last choice for tank leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

But if something feels considerably harder on Templar in the PvE tank role vs. every other class on tank, even with a team that's not great, it's worth note IMO. If I can run a DK tank with that same team and feel like I'm doing 1/10th of the work surviving, then it's an issue. Especially when you consider, on progression runs or with teams that aren't the best, having solid support can go a long way. So telling me that my templar tank is only useful with groups that are perfect is not a good thing.

In the end, I really don't see a need to not give templars a health based self heal when every other class has one. The main thing to address is to make sure you take a strong heal away from them in pvp so they can't stack both and using the self heal wouldn't be any different than just using their class heal now in pvp. It would literally only help them in PvE tanking if done right. And even then the class wouldn't be the best option in meta end game raids.

You know the more I think about this the more interesting the prospect becomes. Making it the other morph of breath of life would make a player have to choose between them kind of like how night blades have to choose either cloak or the healing dark cloak that gives a HoT and minor protection.
The only problem i see with his is the fact that healing ritual will still exist. And that heals for way more than either of those heals and also heals multiple targets nearby. I think healing ritual(the clap heal) needs a total rework. Templars dont need that many group heals and this one is super expensive and does the same thing breath of life does already. Maybe they could make it some kind of buff giving templar major brutality and sorcery or expedition since templar is also missing those buffs in their tool kit.

The problem is that major sorcery/brutality is not very problematic especially with the changes to the alliance power potions now becoming equal to craftable potions.

I definitely agree with ya that healing ritual needs a complete overhaul along with eclipse, radiant aura and blazing shield.

Yea honestly templar needs the same treatment that nightblade got a few patches ago. Some of those changes dont make a lot of sense but still pretty cool to change up their skills and add much needed utility.

ZeroXFF

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

None of your examples compare to not having a health based self heal. You can go through every single world, guild, weapon, armor or other skill lines and you will not find a generic version of a health based self heal.

umm...


http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Drain_Essence

Accelerating Drain:

Consume an enemy's life force, dealing 1782 Magic Damage and restoring 15% of your missing Health every 0.7 seconds for 3 seconds. After you finish draining, the enemy is stunned for 3 seconds. When the drain ends you gain Minor Expedition, increasing your Movement Speed by 10% for [17 / 18 / 19 / 20] seconds.

that is 30% of your missing health health in .7 seconds, one tick at the start and another tick at the .7 second mark.


and in the next patch it is getting better, it is going to be 23% of your missing health per tick and will return stam when you are channeling.

1. Templars do not have a direct damage class spammable, they have a cast time spammable that nobody uses (just like the sorc spammable) and a channeling spammable. So sorcs are not unique in that regard. But in fact both of them do have direct damage spammables - Force Pulse, Crushing Weapon and a bunch of other options through the various weapon skill lines.

sweeps is direct damage and is one of the best spammables in the game. every templar uses it and i really have no idea where you are getting the idea they dont. also, sweeps is not "cast time", it is a channel, very different mechanics.

2. Everyone does have access to minor berserk with 100% uptime, at least if they play stam (Camouflaged Hunter from Fighters Guild).

but none of that is in class, what the op is asking for, they are outside the class.

3. Nightblades do have a burst heal based on spell damage and max mag - combat prayer. If you build for healing, you have all of the tools you need for it, even on a NB.

NBs dont have that, everyone has that. come on, are you really trying.

Channeling skills are instantly disqualified because of the realities of how tanking works,

if you cant find .7 seconds to get 30% of your missing health back as a tank, 46% in the future, maybe just use another class. there are loads of other players doing the hardest content in the game on templar tank, if you need a class based percentage based heal to compare to them, maybe templars are not the class for you. and that is okay, not all classes are for everyone.

I don't get all the whataboutisms going on.

because if all classes had all the same skill, what would be the point of classes? "perfectly balanced " does not have to mean everyone is the same.

It's a necessity for tanks.

umm...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdVv_5Jc_uM&

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmG_y6Xqo_A

looks like he does just fine.

I was talking about 2 different skills. Dark Flare is the cast time spammable, works just like Crystal Blast. It's actually quite obvious that I talk about different skills there, so you're the one who "isn't even trying". And if you use the same definition of "direct damage" as ZOS does, then sorcs do have a spammable - Frags/Crystal Blast. And if you use the definition of "direct damage" to mean instant, Templars do not have such a spammable, just like sorcs. So either way, you're wrong on this one.

Also, magplars rarely use either of those skills, because both of them do less damage than Crushing Shock or Elemental Weapon in a rotation due to how long the animation is, and the fact that sweeps binds them to melee range, which defeats the purpose of playing a ranged spec.

There are non-class skills that can be used for all those things you listed. There are no non-class on-demand HP% heals that could actually be used by real tanks in real content. Try using your crappy vampire channeling thingy during a breath on either of the bosses in vSS, or during Thousand Cuts in vHRC hm, or during barrage in vMoL - you know, when you actually need it. I'll grab some popcorn to watch the wipe fest, and read your explanation for the healers about why you didn't block when you died. It would be hilarious to read what you come up with as an excuse.

Also, taking more damage and having more expensive skills is surely the way to go on a tank, right?

I'm honestly amazed at how you're still trying to argue given how wrong and disconnected from reality everything is that you said in this thread.

Drdeath20

ZeroXFF wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

None of your examples compare to not having a health based self heal. You can go through every single world, guild, weapon, armor or other skill lines and you will not find a generic version of a health based self heal.

umm...


http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Drain_Essence

Accelerating Drain:

Consume an enemy's life force, dealing 1782 Magic Damage and restoring 15% of your missing Health every 0.7 seconds for 3 seconds. After you finish draining, the enemy is stunned for 3 seconds. When the drain ends you gain Minor Expedition, increasing your Movement Speed by 10% for [17 / 18 / 19 / 20] seconds.

that is 30% of your missing health health in .7 seconds, one tick at the start and another tick at the .7 second mark.


and in the next patch it is getting better, it is going to be 23% of your missing health per tick and will return stam when you are channeling.

1. Templars do not have a direct damage class spammable, they have a cast time spammable that nobody uses (just like the sorc spammable) and a channeling spammable. So sorcs are not unique in that regard. But in fact both of them do have direct damage spammables - Force Pulse, Crushing Weapon and a bunch of other options through the various weapon skill lines.

sweeps is direct damage and is one of the best spammables in the game. every templar uses it and i really have no idea where you are getting the idea they dont. also, sweeps is not "cast time", it is a channel, very different mechanics.

2. Everyone does have access to minor berserk with 100% uptime, at least if they play stam (Camouflaged Hunter from Fighters Guild).

but none of that is in class, what the op is asking for, they are outside the class.

3. Nightblades do have a burst heal based on spell damage and max mag - combat prayer. If you build for healing, you have all of the tools you need for it, even on a NB.

NBs dont have that, everyone has that. come on, are you really trying.

Channeling skills are instantly disqualified because of the realities of how tanking works,

if you cant find .7 seconds to get 30% of your missing health back as a tank, 46% in the future, maybe just use another class. there are loads of other players doing the hardest content in the game on templar tank, if you need a class based percentage based heal to compare to them, maybe templars are not the class for you. and that is okay, not all classes are for everyone.

I don't get all the whataboutisms going on.

because if all classes had all the same skill, what would be the point of classes? "perfectly balanced " does not have to mean everyone is the same.

It's a necessity for tanks.

umm...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdVv_5Jc_uM&

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmG_y6Xqo_A

looks like he does just fine.

I was talking about 2 different skills. Dark Flare is the cast time spammable, works just like Crystal Blast. It's actually quite obvious that I talk about different skills there, so you're the one who "isn't even trying". And if you use the same definition of "direct damage" as ZOS does, then sorcs do have a spammable - Frags/Crystal Blast. And if you use the definition of "direct damage" to mean instant, Templars do not have such a spammable, just like sorcs. So either way, you're wrong on this one.

Also, magplars rarely use either of those skills, because both of them do less damage than Crushing Shock or Elemental Weapon in a rotation due to how long the animation is, and the fact that sweeps binds them to melee range, which defeats the purpose of playing a ranged spec.

There are non-class skills that can be used for all those things you listed. There are no non-class on-demand HP% heals that could actually be used by real tanks in real content. Try using your crappy vampire channeling thingy during a breath on either of the bosses in vSS, or during Thousand Cuts in vHRC hm, or during barrage in vMoL - you know, when you actually need it. I'll grab some popcorn to watch the wipe fest, and read your explanation for the healers about why you didn't block when you died. It would be hilarious to read what you come up with as an excuse.

Also, taking more damage and having more expensive skills is surely the way to go on a tank, right?

I'm honestly amazed at how you're still trying to argue given how wrong and disconnected from reality everything is that you said in this thread.

Also like you previously said so you find a way to somehow make vampire work but then wheres the secret sauce to choosing a templar as a tank over anything else. Make all these sacrifices just to barely get by.

starkerealm

ZeroXFF wrote: »

So unless they make the shield literally free, or make shield mitigation apply after block, your comment is little more than an insult to every templar tank in the game.

The problem with that is that it's still easier to plop down some rediclous shields. Nothing like the pre-Mirkmire days, but still.

I mean, if we're talking PvP, okay, but if we're talking PvE, Templar tanks are already plenty insulted simply from their lack of good CC options.

ccfeeling

Tier 1 healer
Tier 1 Dps

Wanna be Tier 1 tank too ?

Swen_von_Walhallion

ccfeeling wrote: »

Tier 1 healer
Tier 1 Dps

Wanna be Tier 1 tank too ?

hmm wardens are at same lvls as healer as templar. And top magika DPS is momentaly mag DK a top stamina is still necro. and bow plar is most terrible bow/bow dps char which evr existed

And templars rly need healt based heals, its not hard tank trial with templar when oyu have experienced healer, but try it with new healers which still learnig and you will se its hell, when with necro or DK tank its still piece of cake. And clas heal sux for tankig 2h heal each 2s from cleansig ritual is nothig what can save you, and other heals are so expensive is rly worth spend 1/3 of ma mana pool for 7-9 heal ....

Hotdog_23

Change hasty prayer morph to be heal based heal. Problem solved. This would leave ritual of rebirth for healer that want/need it. The minor expedition is not needed with hasty prayer.

Or either increased the shield by 3 times for Sun shield at least but leave the damage the same as now to prevent it becoming a problem in PVP again.

Best of all would be if Rushed Ceremony would scale off your highest stat either magic/stamina or health.


PS,
Watching the add-ons NefasQs is using make me jealous as a console player.

Iron_Blurr

ccfeeling wrote: »

Tier 1 healer
Tier 1 Dps

Wanna be Tier 1 tank too ?

Uh that's not a logical argument. Oh you are both hungry and thirsty? Well too bad you can only have one or the other..
Not to mention the fact that magplar is not best mag dps and stamplar although good is still second to stamcro for now. And templar healers are probably not going to be run next patch since you want a warden healer and possibly a dk healer with roaring opportunist now since dk has molten armaments for extra heavy attack damage..
But all that aside the logic still does not stand. If templar is over performing in one particular role, the solution is not to nerf the other roles. If they are op dps adjust the dps not the healers and tanks. Same goes for every role on every class.

Hotdog_23

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Tier 1 healer
Tier 1 Dps

Wanna be Tier 1 tank too ?

Uh that's not a logical argument. Oh you are both hungry and thirsty? Well too bad you can only have one or the other..
Not to mention the fact that magplar is not best mag dps and stamplar although good is still second to stamcro for now. And templar healers are probably not going to be run next patch since you want a warden healer and possibly a dk healer with roaring opportunist now since dk has molten armaments for extra heavy attack damage..
But all that aside the logic still does not stand. If templar is over performing in one particular role, the solution is not to nerf the other roles. If they are op dps adjust the dps not the healers and tanks. Same goes for every role on every class.

1. My suggestion for templar tank in another forum post
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/526282/templar-tank-need-selfheal#latest

Change hasty prayer morph to be heal based heal. Problem solved. This would leave ritual of rebirth for healer that want/need it. The minor expedition is not needed with hasty prayer.

Or either increased the shield by 3 times for Sun shield at least but leave the damage the same as now to prevent it becoming a problem in PVP again.

Best of all would be if Rushed Ceremony would scale off your highest stat either magic/stamina or health.

2. Good point a small damage over time would be a nice addition to javelin to help produce burning light in PVP areas since jabs is difficult to land sometimes against other good players.

Can see a lot of tears in the forum if they would add it. Since jabs is so OP according to some.

BloodLegions

Am I the only one missing something here? You've honor the dead thats a single target heal and if you're taking and wanting more self heals why not just use puncturing sweep? And if you've no templar healer you've purifying light to get another heal while helping party dps. As most of the effective like most classes are mag based anyway? Can always run ice staff on reverse n snb front worh and ulti. replenishing barrier as the ultimate on ice staff bar. Or if you want more self heals healing morph. I run it as my healer for my main ulti.if you run regularly with a templar healer you can max out your buff with you using repentance and the healer using radiant Aurora getting you back both stam.n mag. Can also use restoring focus for stam.recovery also if you're wanting to run vigor and/or ability to block more. If healer give shards n bubbles coupled with you're own I dont see why this is such a massive problem.

Sanguinor2

BloodLegions wrote: »

Am I the only one missing something here? You've honor the dead thats a single target heal and if you're taking and wanting more self heals why not just use puncturing sweep? And if you've no templar healer you've purifying light to get another heal while helping party dps. As most of the effective like most classes are mag based anyway? Can always run ice staff on reverse n snb front worh and ulti. replenishing barrier as the ultimate on ice staff bar. Or if you want more self heals healing morph. I run it as my healer for my main ulti.if you run regularly with a templar healer you can max out your buff with you using repentance and the healer using radiant Aurora getting you back both stam.n mag. Can also use restoring focus for stam.recovery also if you're wanting to run vigor and/or ability to block more. If healer give shards n bubbles coupled with you're own I dont see why this is such a massive problem.

Apparently you are. Because all those heals you listed wont heal a tank for much because they scale with magicka and spell Damage both of which are on rather short supply on a tank that has more max stam than max mag, Little spell and weapon Damage and instead invest in block cost reduction, mag recovery, Health and resistances. Thats why the OP is asking for a heal that scales on max Health because templar is the only class that does not have Access to such a heal while every other class does.

Iron_Blurr

BloodLegions wrote: »

Am I the only one missing something here? You've honor the dead thats a single target heal and if you're taking and wanting more self heals why not just use puncturing sweep? And if you've no templar healer you've purifying light to get another heal while helping party dps. As most of the effective like most classes are mag based anyway? Can always run ice staff on reverse n snb front worh and ulti. replenishing barrier as the ultimate on ice staff bar. Or if you want more self heals healing morph. I run it as my healer for my main ulti.if you run regularly with a templar healer you can max out your buff with you using repentance and the healer using radiant Aurora getting you back both stam.n mag. Can also use restoring focus for stam.recovery also if you're wanting to run vigor and/or ability to block more. If healer give shards n bubbles coupled with you're own I dont see why this is such a massive problem.

Basically although templars have strong heals they all scale with spell damage. And vigor scales with weapon damage. Tanks dont have much weapon or spell damage. Also even if they do run something like honor the dead the ability is coded as a smart heal. Meaning it will go to whoever is lowest health in the area. And that may not always be the tank so in situations where you REALLY need a self heal it can target someone else and you cant control who it targets.
So what im asking for is a heal that only targets yourself and that scales with max health. The scaling with max health part is to prevent it from becoming op in pvp. If you want to get more healing out of it, you have to stack more into the hp stat which will directly lower your damage.

Kidgangster101

ccfeeling wrote: »

Tier 1 healer
Tier 1 Dps

Wanna be Tier 1 tank too ?

No but how about being adequate at tanking lol. Templar has a terrible shield, terrible heal, terrible cc. So what do they do for a group?