Templar tank need selfheal

ArticD

Templar tank haven't good self heal. So players need to use vigor/breath of life and it's not enough for tank. Please change one of morphs of breath of life. For example: now this skill heals you for 25% of your max health and you can heal only yourself.

nsmurfer

No, templar has health scaling shields which serve the same purpose. Health scaling heals cause ridiculous PvP issues as proved by bleedblades before Dark Cloak got nerfed. It would be even more ridiculous on stamplars in PvP

ZeroXFF

nsmurfer wrote: »

No, templar has health scaling shields which serve the same purpose. Health scaling heals cause ridiculous PvP issues as proved by bleedblades before Dark Cloak got nerfed. It would be even more ridiculous on stamplars in PvP

Sun shield is a useless skill. After the addition of the 10% block damage reduction, a templar tank can have as much as 70% block mitigation passively (50% base, 10% 1hs passives, 5% templar passive, 5% with defensive stance slotted). Since shields apply before block, a shield that absorbs 30% of your HP is worth about as much as a 10% HP heal. And that even before we take into account minor/major mending, crit (heals can crit, shields cannot) and the fact that the CP star that boosts healing does not compete with the mitigation CPs whereas the one boosting shields does.

After taking all that into account, a heal is worth about 4-5x as much as a damage shield of the same base strength when talking about sustain.

So unless they make the shield literally free, or make shield mitigation apply after block, your comment is little more than an insult to every templar tank in the game.

Somnilux

Unfortunately this is a complex issue. Because there's both a pve and a pvp balance factor here.

Stamplar's currently are very strong in 1vX situations, adding a health scaling heal does indeed push them into the territory of overperforming. Dark Cloak was very strong and got nerfed, and the only reason it wasn't even worse of an issue was because it was a morph of one of the most critical and class defining pvp abilities.

For tanks, the health scaling shield in pve is definitely not as useful as it sounds due to the block mechanics.

If they were to add a health scaling heal morph, its either going to need to be a heal over time, and require you to stack something like vigor or ritual on top of it for reasonable self healing like an NB tank, or it will need to have some kind of tradeoff that a pvp dps is not going to want to give up.

I can't think of a universally utilized skill both stamplars and magplars are using that sticking a separate morph on would give you a dark cloak-like tradeoff.

I think something like changing a morph of sun shield to something like:
Adds a health scaling shield - If you block damage, while the shield is still in effect > gives you a health scaling heal over time. would be at least a viable option. You'd be taking the damage off one of the morphs and have it be a healing morph. It could have the potential of being utilized in pvp but you'd need to find space for it on your bars, and I doubt any magplars would use it even then, and a stamplar might but it would likely just be a weak magicka costing vigor at lower health pools which we already have a few options for that.

----

Also note, repentence is currently overperforming in every situation that isn't a single target boss fight, as it means stamplars and templar tanks have pretty much near infinite stamina return and lots of free group heals. Thats something you need to keep at least in the back of your mind when wanting parity with others.

ZeroXFF

Somnilux wrote: »

Also note, repentence is currently overperforming in every situation that isn't a single target boss fight, as it means stamplars and templar tanks have pretty much near infinite stamina return and lots of free group heals. Thats something you need to keep at least in the back of your mind when wanting parity with others.

Considering that despite your claims repentence is actually a completely useless skill that I never ever use, I'd gladly trade it for an HP% heal. That would make everyone happy, because we remove what you consider an "OP" skill, and give tanks something that they can actually use in combat rather than to marginally reduce downtime between irrelevant trash pulls by wasting a skill slot.

PandaPalace

nsmurfer wrote: »

No, templar has health scaling shields which serve the same purpose. Health scaling heals cause ridiculous PvP issues as proved by bleedblades before Dark Cloak got nerfed. It would be even more ridiculous on stamplars in PvP

Dks get 2 hp scaling shields(Hardened Armor, Igneous Shield) while still getting a hp scaling heal.
All classes other than Templar has a hp scaling self heal, Templars need 1 too.

Olupajmibanan

Just replace one Healing Ritual morph with a % hp heal. Nobody uses this skill so it's perfect adept for that.

Somnilux

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Somnilux wrote: »

Also note, repentence is currently overperforming in every situation that isn't a single target boss fight, as it means stamplars and templar tanks have pretty much near infinite stamina return and lots of free group heals. Thats something you need to keep at least in the back of your mind when wanting parity with others.

Considering that despite your claims repentence is actually a completely useless skill that I never ever use, I'd gladly trade it for an HP% heal. That would make everyone happy, because we remove what you consider an "OP" skill, and give tanks something that they can actually use in combat rather than to marginally reduce downtime between irrelevant trash pulls by wasting a skill slot.

Then I can't even remotely take you seriously.
I'm done with the discussion or giving any support to your request.
Even in trials, repentance is useful on many fights. It provides 100% uptime on the three minor regens passively, and almost every little bit of trash can be repentanced. Whether it be the orbs in cloudrest, all the elementals that spawn in Sunspire. Every fight in HOF has something worth using repentance on. The only place its not worth running I can think of offhand is asylum and that's only because the tank is so far away from the keepers that get burned down and its a pretty low-trash fight.

Alidel

I'm not a high end tank by any means, but I found playing with templar tank is that it's quite unique compared to others. Yeah, hp based heal would improve effectiveness by a huge margin, but I find it very fun to stack bone and sun shields on top of ritual and even suck on dying teammates that serve their tank even in death.

OG_Kaveman

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Somnilux wrote: »

Also note, repentence is currently overperforming in every situation that isn't a single target boss fight, as it means stamplars and templar tanks have pretty much near infinite stamina return and lots of free group heals. Thats something you need to keep at least in the back of your mind when wanting parity with others.

Considering that despite your claims repentence is actually a completely useless skill that I never ever use, I'd gladly trade it for an HP% heal. That would make everyone happy, because we remove what you consider an "OP" skill, and give tanks something that they can actually use in combat rather than to marginally reduce downtime between irrelevant trash pulls by wasting a skill slot.

youre insane if you dont use repentance, ever since they made it so multiple templars can repent a single corpse, it has been an amazing skill and you would be simply gimping yourself as a tank not using it, even if templars had a health percent healing skill.

then there are the other skills that you can use to heal yourself that are not based on stats, like Absorb Missile or deep thoughts, even Accelerating Drain right now is amazing for tanks, you get 2 ticks of 15% health in under a second. though that one is changing soon, to Vampiric Drain, something that could be better, as you are going to be able to stam from it too. now yo might be like, but my class identity, now that could be argued the other way, if you give temps a percent heal, you are taking away class identity, as classes are defined by what they lack as much as what they have.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Templar tanks are perfect as they are, and my main tank will always be a Templar. I never find it necessary to use any other heals than repentance and honour the dead, and if they change one of those heals it will screw over the class. Not to mention likely get all our heals nerfed because of pvp.

LordWenzel

The only reasonable stuff i can think about, is to change one of the Healing Ritual morphs into %HP self heal but with a debuff like minor/major maim grant to the skill caster. Something similiar the necromancer's Render Flesh skill that gives minor defile to its caster.

xaraan

I can tell you this, as someone that tanks end game vet HM trials and dungeons with every class, Templar feels the worst of them all b/c of lack of a solid self heal.

Some considerations would have to be taken into account for pvp and not making them over perform there, I've suggested a morph of breath of life, that way a templar would have a choose between the version that heals others and scales off magicka or a health scaling self heal version. You could also tweak the way it scales so that you'd have to get your health up fairly high before you noticed a good return to prevent stam builds in pvp with 30k- health from getting a big benefit from it. But in the end, the fact that heals have a 60% cut in pvp shouldn't make this as big a deal as some try to make it out to be.

Most of the time though, these threads pop up and a bunch of templar tanks will chime in pointing out how they have no problems and point out use of things like repentance, certain item sets, etc. and this means they are usually talking about tanking stuff where you barely need a tank to begin with. Do downstairs of vCR+3 in ebon/alkosh with a group that doesn't burn the crystals down in fifteen seconds and then talk about how useful repentance was for you. And then do it on a DK and you'll see how much more you can do for the group when you aren't spending all your energy just trying to survive. Not saying it can't be done, I've done it, but it's been far easier on literally every other class. And that's a problem that can be fixed.

edit: I see repentance is already getting leaned on heavily. So I want to add, sure it's a great skill. Granted, the times it is most useful is when you need it the least and are often not even challenged as a tank. Burst heals need to come when you need them, you can't be in need of that burst and have to worry about a mob falling over at that moment. ESO gets more and more in love with high burst damage in fights and love putting in things that ignore other defenses where they best thing for you is to trigger a burst heal. That has to be something you can use on demand. Again, not saying content can't be done on a Templar tank. I can't say that when I've done it. But I can tell you it's a huge power gap between them and other tank classes.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

xaraan wrote: »

I can tell you this, as someone that tanks end game vet HM trials and dungeons with every class, Templar feels the worst of them all b/c of lack of a solid self heal.

Some considerations would have to be taken into account for pvp and not making them over perform there, I've suggested a morph of breath of life, that way a templar would have a choose between the version that heals others and scales off magicka or a health scaling self heal version. You could also tweak the way it scales so that you'd have to get your health up fairly high before you noticed a good return to prevent stam builds in pvp with 30k- health from getting a big benefit from it. But in the end, the fact that heals have a 60% cut in pvp shouldn't make this as big a deal as some try to make it out to be.

Most of the time though, these threads pop up and a bunch of templar tanks will chime in pointing out how they have no problems and point out use of things like repentance, certain item sets, etc. and this means they are usually talking about tanking stuff where you barely need a tank to begin with. Do downstairs of vCR+3 in ebon/alkosh with a group that doesn't burn the crystals down in fifteen seconds and then talk about how useful repentance was for you. And then do it on a DK and you'll see how much more you can do for the group when you aren't spending all your energy just trying to survive. Not saying it can't be done, I've done it, but it's been far easier on literally every other class. And that's a problem that can be fixed.

edit: I see repentance is already getting leaned on heavily. So I want to add, sure it's a great skill. Granted, the times it is most useful is when you need it the least and are often not even challenged as a tank. Burst heals need to come when you need them, you can't be in need of that burst and have to worry about a mob falling over at that moment. ESO gets more and more in love with high burst damage in fights and love putting in things that ignore other defenses where they best thing for you is to trigger a burst heal. That has to be something you can use on demand. Again, not saying content can't be done on a Templar tank. I can't say that when I've done it. But I can tell you it's a huge power gap between them and other tank classes.

I can't speak for others, but I've had the best success tanking my end game content on a Templar. Not things you "barely need a tank for". Does that mean they are best in all trials and circumstances? No. But the reason I'm not in favour of changes is because of zos' history of destroying class moves entirely in the name of "improvement".

holden_caulfield

ArticD wrote: »

Templar tank haven't good self heal. So players need to use vigor/breath of life and it's not enough for tank. Please change one of morphs of breath of life. For example: now this skill heals you for 25% of your max health and you can heal only yourself.

Can't u just party with an healer?
What is your idea? Lets just get rid of healers and give everybody with whatever stats strong heals?
Reading these forums I wonder what kind of game you all have in mind.

ZeroXFF

Somnilux wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Somnilux wrote: »

Also note, repentence is currently overperforming in every situation that isn't a single target boss fight, as it means stamplars and templar tanks have pretty much near infinite stamina return and lots of free group heals. Thats something you need to keep at least in the back of your mind when wanting parity with others.

Considering that despite your claims repentence is actually a completely useless skill that I never ever use, I'd gladly trade it for an HP% heal. That would make everyone happy, because we remove what you consider an "OP" skill, and give tanks something that they can actually use in combat rather than to marginally reduce downtime between irrelevant trash pulls by wasting a skill slot.

Then I can't even remotely take you seriously.
I'm done with the discussion or giving any support to your request.
Even in trials, repentance is useful on many fights. It provides 100% uptime on the three minor regens passively, and almost every little bit of trash can be repentanced. Whether it be the orbs in cloudrest, all the elementals that spawn in Sunspire. Every fight in HOF has something worth using repentance on. The only place its not worth running I can think of offhand is asylum and that's only because the tank is so far away from the keepers that get burned down and its a pretty low-trash fight.

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Somnilux wrote: »

Also note, repentence is currently overperforming in every situation that isn't a single target boss fight, as it means stamplars and templar tanks have pretty much near infinite stamina return and lots of free group heals. Thats something you need to keep at least in the back of your mind when wanting parity with others.

Considering that despite your claims repentence is actually a completely useless skill that I never ever use, I'd gladly trade it for an HP% heal. That would make everyone happy, because we remove what you consider an "OP" skill, and give tanks something that they can actually use in combat rather than to marginally reduce downtime between irrelevant trash pulls by wasting a skill slot.

youre insane if you dont use repentance, ever since they made it so multiple templars can repent a single corpse, it has been an amazing skill and you would be simply gimping yourself as a tank not using it, even if templars had a health percent healing skill.

then there are the other skills that you can use to heal yourself that are not based on stats, like Absorb Missile or deep thoughts, even Accelerating Drain right now is amazing for tanks, you get 2 ticks of 15% health in under a second. though that one is changing soon, to Vampiric Drain, something that could be better, as you are going to be able to stam from it too. now yo might be like, but my class identity, now that could be argued the other way, if you give temps a percent heal, you are taking away class identity, as classes are defined by what they lack as much as what they have.

You're insane if you think that a skill that relies on corpses that you can't produce yourself (like a necro) can ever be considered good. For this kind of skills to be useful, the situation has to fulfill the following criteria:
1. There are corpses.
2. The corpses are close to you.
3. You actually need resources/healing whenever there are corpses close to you.

Let's take something fairly recent that you couldn't think of for some reason as an example of a fight where repentance is useless, Nahviintaas hm. If you're the MT, the adds don't die near you, thereby failing #2. If you're the OT, you don't need resources or a lot of healing, failing #3. Add phase? You spend like half a minute just standing around after that phase, so you definitely don't need resources then, failing #3.

What about Yolna? Well, if you do the pulling-under tactic, you get 2 adds every fly phase. Other adds die too far from you to benefit from them. That gives you a total regen of 6x2700 over the course of a 6-7 minute fight. What do you call a skill that restores 16200 stamina and HP over 7 minutes? That's right, you call it "Sun Shield would have done more".

But at least Lokke with all the atros, right? Well, as MT you can't pick and choose where you stand, so you cannot rely on getting the atros in the main boss fight. You might get a lot, or you might get none, so you probably slot Meditate instead if you don't want your group to wipe because of RNG. You also don't get the fire atros, because they are pulled towards the group, not the MT. "But the add phase" I hear you scream as you're reading this... Yeah, the add phase, when the MT has literally nothing to do because the boss isn't there, you can use Repentance - at exactly the moment when you need it the least (failing #3). "But the OT can use it", yes, that he can, whenever the number of adds goes down and he doesn't need it any more (failing #3).

I'll skip details on the other trials and cut straight to the summary... In vCR the skill fails #2. In vAS as you mentioned yourself, the skill fails #2. In vHoF it's a mixed bag - it's useful on 1st boss and at least not entirely a waste of a skill slot on the 5th, but it fails #2 on 2nd, #3 on 3rd and #2 on 4th. vMoL? Yeah, I'll give you that one, there is plenty of trash there, and usually close enough, and you might even get lucky and have an add die during barrage on Rakkhat, because making survival dependent on RNG is fun or something.

In dungeons it's a similar story, except in a lot of cases you just straight up fail #1.

So with this skill being so situational and only useful about 5% of the time in about 30% of the fights, you either build a tank that doesn't need it to be able to tank all bosses, or you're a bad tank that can't tank most bosses in the game. If you wouldn't trade this piece of garbage for a reliable HP% healing skill that you could always use, not only in every fight, but at every moment of a fight, I don't know what to tell you.

TL;DR: Repentance is unreliable, and not worth a skill slot, therefore should absolutely not be considered at all for balancing when giving Templars an HP% heal.

xaraan

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I can tell you this, as someone that tanks end game vet HM trials and dungeons with every class, Templar feels the worst of them all b/c of lack of a solid self heal.

Some considerations would have to be taken into account for pvp and not making them over perform there, I've suggested a morph of breath of life, that way a templar would have a choose between the version that heals others and scales off magicka or a health scaling self heal version. You could also tweak the way it scales so that you'd have to get your health up fairly high before you noticed a good return to prevent stam builds in pvp with 30k- health from getting a big benefit from it. But in the end, the fact that heals have a 60% cut in pvp shouldn't make this as big a deal as some try to make it out to be.

Most of the time though, these threads pop up and a bunch of templar tanks will chime in pointing out how they have no problems and point out use of things like repentance, certain item sets, etc. and this means they are usually talking about tanking stuff where you barely need a tank to begin with. Do downstairs of vCR+3 in ebon/alkosh with a group that doesn't burn the crystals down in fifteen seconds and then talk about how useful repentance was for you. And then do it on a DK and you'll see how much more you can do for the group when you aren't spending all your energy just trying to survive. Not saying it can't be done, I've done it, but it's been far easier on literally every other class. And that's a problem that can be fixed.

edit: I see repentance is already getting leaned on heavily. So I want to add, sure it's a great skill. Granted, the times it is most useful is when you need it the least and are often not even challenged as a tank. Burst heals need to come when you need them, you can't be in need of that burst and have to worry about a mob falling over at that moment. ESO gets more and more in love with high burst damage in fights and love putting in things that ignore other defenses where they best thing for you is to trigger a burst heal. That has to be something you can use on demand. Again, not saying content can't be done on a Templar tank. I can't say that when I've done it. But I can tell you it's a huge power gap between them and other tank classes.

I can't speak for others, but I've had the best success tanking my end game content on a Templar. Not things you "barely need a tank for". Does that mean they are best in all trials and circumstances? No. But the reason I'm not in favour of changes is because of zos' history of destroying class moves entirely in the name of "improvement".

So, you are saying exactly what I said. It's do-able on Templar, I said myself I've done it, at end game on that content. But it's not the best in all circumstances. Though I'd say that's an understatement. It's more accurate to say that are almost never the best in any circumstance. And the part of the statement about "barely need a tank for" you have to admit, in almost every tanking thread asking about advice, a ton of tanks chime in that have never done the hardest content and talk about how this or that is no problem. So it's worth noting IMO.

What makes templar come up short virtually every time against other classes can be easily fixed without entirely destroying the class. Though I do get your concern about zos not doing it correctly.

Somnilux

xaraan wrote: »

I can tell you this, as someone that tanks end game vet HM trials and dungeons with every class, Templar feels the worst of them all b/c of lack of a solid self heal.

Some considerations would have to be taken into account for pvp and not making them over perform there, I've suggested a morph of breath of life, that way a templar would have a choose between the version that heals others and scales off magicka or a health scaling self heal version. You could also tweak the way it scales so that you'd have to get your health up fairly high before you noticed a good return to prevent stam builds in pvp with 30k- health from getting a big benefit from it. But in the end, the fact that heals have a 60% cut in pvp shouldn't make this as big a deal as some try to make it out to be.

Most of the time though, these threads pop up and a bunch of templar tanks will chime in pointing out how they have no problems and point out use of things like repentance, certain item sets, etc. and this means they are usually talking about tanking stuff where you barely need a tank to begin with. Do downstairs of vCR+3 in ebon/alkosh with a group that doesn't burn the crystals down in fifteen seconds and then talk about how useful repentance was for you. And then do it on a DK and you'll see how much more you can do for the group when you aren't spending all your energy just trying to survive. Not saying it can't be done, I've done it, but it's been far easier on literally every other class. And that's a problem that can be fixed.

edit: I see repentance is already getting leaned on heavily. So I want to add, sure it's a great skill. Granted, the times it is most useful is when you need it the least and are often not even challenged as a tank. Burst heals need to come when you need them, you can't be in need of that burst and have to worry about a mob falling over at that moment. ESO gets more and more in love with high burst damage in fights and love putting in things that ignore other defenses where they best thing for you is to trigger a burst heal. That has to be something you can use on demand. Again, not saying content can't be done on a Templar tank. I can't say that when I've done it. But I can tell you it's a huge power gap between them and other tank classes.

You'll note I wasn't saying that repentance was a replacement at all. I was simply saying it needs to be acknowledged that if Templars are made exactly equivalent to other classes then it would become a major imbalance factor. The other guy then claimed it was useless which you can rationally agree with isn't.

As I mentioned above it would indeed impact stamplars in PvP more than you think it would, and it would be better to make it a hot like Dark Cloak than a burst heal. Therefore I think it would be better to change one of the morphs of the relatively underutilized sun shield which is already a health scaling ability and leave the option for magicka heavy templar tanks to still heal group members with Breath of Life.

Now I am not saying that it's the only solution nor am I arguing that a health scaling heal isn't an important thing. I am simply trying to point out the design considerations that need to be considered here.

Somnilux

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Somnilux wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Somnilux wrote: »

Also note, repentence is currently overperforming in every situation that isn't a single target boss fight, as it means stamplars and templar tanks have pretty much near infinite stamina return and lots of free group heals. Thats something you need to keep at least in the back of your mind when wanting parity with others.

Considering that despite your claims repentence is actually a completely useless skill that I never ever use, I'd gladly trade it for an HP% heal. That would make everyone happy, because we remove what you consider an "OP" skill, and give tanks something that they can actually use in combat rather than to marginally reduce downtime between irrelevant trash pulls by wasting a skill slot.

Then I can't even remotely take you seriously.
I'm done with the discussion or giving any support to your request.
Even in trials, repentance is useful on many fights. It provides 100% uptime on the three minor regens passively, and almost every little bit of trash can be repentanced. Whether it be the orbs in cloudrest, all the elementals that spawn in Sunspire. Every fight in HOF has something worth using repentance on. The only place its not worth running I can think of offhand is asylum and that's only because the tank is so far away from the keepers that get burned down and its a pretty low-trash fight.

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Somnilux wrote: »

Also note, repentence is currently overperforming in every situation that isn't a single target boss fight, as it means stamplars and templar tanks have pretty much near infinite stamina return and lots of free group heals. Thats something you need to keep at least in the back of your mind when wanting parity with others.

Considering that despite your claims repentence is actually a completely useless skill that I never ever use, I'd gladly trade it for an HP% heal. That would make everyone happy, because we remove what you consider an "OP" skill, and give tanks something that they can actually use in combat rather than to marginally reduce downtime between irrelevant trash pulls by wasting a skill slot.

youre insane if you dont use repentance, ever since they made it so multiple templars can repent a single corpse, it has been an amazing skill and you would be simply gimping yourself as a tank not using it, even if templars had a health percent healing skill.

then there are the other skills that you can use to heal yourself that are not based on stats, like Absorb Missile or deep thoughts, even Accelerating Drain right now is amazing for tanks, you get 2 ticks of 15% health in under a second. though that one is changing soon, to Vampiric Drain, something that could be better, as you are going to be able to stam from it too. now yo might be like, but my class identity, now that could be argued the other way, if you give temps a percent heal, you are taking away class identity, as classes are defined by what they lack as much as what they have.

You're insane if you think that a skill that relies on corpses that you can't produce yourself (like a necro) can ever be considered good. For this kind of skills to be useful, the situation has to fulfill the following criteria:
1. There are corpses.
2. The corpses are close to you.
3. You actually need resources/healing whenever there are corpses close to you.

Let's take something fairly recent that you couldn't think of for some reason as an example of a fight where repentance is useless, Nahviintaas hm. If you're the MT, the adds don't die near you, thereby failing #2. If you're the OT, you don't need resources or a lot of healing, failing #3. Add phase? You spend like half a minute just standing around after that phase, so you definitely don't need resources then, failing #3.

What about Yolna? Well, if you do the pulling-under tactic, you get 2 adds every fly phase. Other adds die too far from you to benefit from them. That gives you a total regen of 6x2700 over the course of a 6-7 minute fight. What do you call a skill that restores 16200 stamina and HP over 7 minutes? That's right, you call it "Sun Shield would have done more".

But at least Lokke with all the atros, right? Well, as MT you can't pick and choose where you stand, so you cannot rely on getting the atros in the main boss fight. You might get a lot, or you might get none, so you probably slot Meditate instead if you don't want your group to wipe because of RNG. You also don't get the fire atros, because they are pulled towards the group, not the MT. "But the add phase" I hear you scream as you're reading this... Yeah, the add phase, when the MT has literally nothing to do because the boss isn't there, you can use Repentance - at exactly the moment when you need it the least (failing #3). "But the OT can use it", yes, that he can, whenever the number of adds goes down and he doesn't need it any more (failing #3).

TL;DR: Repentance is unreliable, and not worth a skill slot, therefore should absolutely not be considered at all for balancing when giving Templars an HP% heal.

Sunspire:

Let start with Yoln like you said. Repentancee range is huge. And you are swapping the tanks constantly, and the fire adds do indeed die within repentance range of the MT. Additionally during the add phase you can repentance as each add dies for free Stam.

That's a total of ~5 fire adds per 20% plus 6 x 3 add phases for a number of corpses. Sure you don't neccessarily need all that Stam but like I said it also passively includes minor int/minor end justifying the slot on its own.

As noted some fights you may want to swap it out, but it's definitely one of the single most overperforming skills as is. Something as a stamplar dps I need to be aware of becomes unbalancing on certain encounters and could easily lead to entire stamplar teams if we come within striking distance of the meta dps class necro.

As I said, the issue isn't that templar tanks don't need a HP scaling health restore, but I do feel it may become a balance issue if we are made exactly equivalent to the other tanks. It's very fast for things like that to affect the meta.

Solution really should be a hot not a heal. But I do agree at least that it's a weak area.

xaraan

Somnilux wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I can tell you this, as someone that tanks end game vet HM trials and dungeons with every class, Templar feels the worst of them all b/c of lack of a solid self heal.

Some considerations would have to be taken into account for pvp and not making them over perform there, I've suggested a morph of breath of life, that way a templar would have a choose between the version that heals others and scales off magicka or a health scaling self heal version. You could also tweak the way it scales so that you'd have to get your health up fairly high before you noticed a good return to prevent stam builds in pvp with 30k- health from getting a big benefit from it. But in the end, the fact that heals have a 60% cut in pvp shouldn't make this as big a deal as some try to make it out to be.

Most of the time though, these threads pop up and a bunch of templar tanks will chime in pointing out how they have no problems and point out use of things like repentance, certain item sets, etc. and this means they are usually talking about tanking stuff where you barely need a tank to begin with. Do downstairs of vCR+3 in ebon/alkosh with a group that doesn't burn the crystals down in fifteen seconds and then talk about how useful repentance was for you. And then do it on a DK and you'll see how much more you can do for the group when you aren't spending all your energy just trying to survive. Not saying it can't be done, I've done it, but it's been far easier on literally every other class. And that's a problem that can be fixed.

edit: I see repentance is already getting leaned on heavily. So I want to add, sure it's a great skill. Granted, the times it is most useful is when you need it the least and are often not even challenged as a tank. Burst heals need to come when you need them, you can't be in need of that burst and have to worry about a mob falling over at that moment. ESO gets more and more in love with high burst damage in fights and love putting in things that ignore other defenses where they best thing for you is to trigger a burst heal. That has to be something you can use on demand. Again, not saying content can't be done on a Templar tank. I can't say that when I've done it. But I can tell you it's a huge power gap between them and other tank classes.

You'll note I wasn't saying that repentance was a replacement at all. I was simply saying it needs to be acknowledged that if Templars are made exactly equivalent to other classes then it would become a major imbalance factor. The other guy then claimed it was useless which you can rationally agree with isn't.

As I mentioned above it would indeed impact stamplars in PvP more than you think it would, and it would be better to make it a hot like Dark Cloak than a burst heal. Therefore I think it would be better to change one of the morphs of the relatively underutilized sun shield which is already a health scaling ability and leave the option for magicka heavy templar tanks to still heal group members with Breath of Life.

Now I am not saying that it's the only solution nor am I arguing that a health scaling heal isn't an important thing. I am simply trying to point out the design considerations that need to be considered here.

I'm with you on repentance. It's a solid tool for a templar tank that I would consider among the list of good abilities to sometimes use on one. BUT I do consider it more of a fun ability, throw in on in fast moving dungeon runs or maybe trash fights in trials just to keep moving and topped off on stam (more so than as a heal) but it's something that often doesn't even make it on my bar in some hard core fights. So to me, sure, it's a great option to list for a Templar Tank, but I don't think of it when I think about what sort of heals I'll need when I have to truly tank.

As for the statement of BoL/HtD offering a tank morph and it being useful to stamplars in pvp. No, if it cost magicka like BoL and didn't scale much better at lower health for a stam in pvp, then it's not possible it would be more useful. It would literally have the same effect except you wouldn't have to worry about it possibly healing a team mate I suppose. Let's not forget healing is taking another heal cut in PvP as well going from 50 to 60% reduction. A stamplar right now can slot BoL in pvp and use it if they want for the same effect. And if they were building a stamplar with 40K+ health, then you start going away from stamDD to tank in PvP (especially with some of the changes they've been making to hamper tanky damage dealers in pvp). Personally, in PvP it's much better to save your magicka for having to use something like purify than using magicka on a heal.

As for a HoT, if it was a HoT that was burstier than Dark Cloak it wouldn't be bad at all, I'd almost prefer that. The biggest problem with dark cloak is that it's too long of a HoT IMO and should do the same healing in half the time. But I'd still rather see that self heal use a morph of Breath of Life. I think it's integral to not give a high health templar in pvp the option of slotting both the strong self heal and BoL at the same time. And I definitely would not use your idea of taking one of the better tanking abilities for a Templar tank and mess with sun shield. And it would be overpowered to tack a heal onto a shield in some form and to allow a shield and heal to be both on the same slot in some fashion. In order for it to be as strong as other self heals in the game, you'd have to scrap the shield part of the ability all together.

Edit: Also from your other comment to the other guy. If you are going to use a trial example, honestly, use the HM version, not the version that barely requires a self heal even on classes that have them. This is why I made the comment earlier about "stuff that doesn't even matter". If you are doing HM on Yoln, you aren't swapping and you are taking the fire breath while cursed. Even if a body was around for repentance it would be borderline if it was enough to help and of course your team won't be happy starting the fight over b/c the tank wiped b/c there wasn't a body to repent when that happened. Your example is fine if someone is asking advice about tanking that particular non-HM version of the fight of course. But in a discussion about why the class is short and how repentance fills the gap for a burst heal, it comes up short.

Fawn4287

Stop trying to ruin the already barely working PvP with your ridiculous non meta tank requests, some how some way any and everything is the backbone of someones non meta tank build, if It isn’t for real end game content Eg. +2 hard mode trials then it really doesn’t need to be discussed on here. A double ice staff light armour double pet sorc main tank isn’t going to complete godslayer, stop asking ZOS to make it so.

Narvuntien

Sun shield should be the ability that gets the buff, the little bit of extra damage from the AoE is completely useless. It should be a shield annnd a heal.

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Iron_Blurr

Every other class has a self heal based on max or missing health. Why should templar tanks be uniquely disadvantaged?
There are also several templar skills that are seldom if ever used. Examples are the healing ritual(the clap heal) and more specifically the morph that adds minor expedition for 5 seconds. Not even healers use that skill.
Damage shields are nice but every class has access to a tank self heal AND damage shields like defensive posture and bone shield. There are many fights in the game where shields simply do not cut it. One example is when you are taking oblivion damage in portals in vCr+3. In that situation there is no healer with you and you need to be self sufficient as you take high burst and damage over time.

If the reason why templars are not deserving of a tank self heal has something to do with their damage potential in pvp then i would suggest that their kit be rebalanced in a way that does not restrict them from being pve tanks.

The best thing about ESO is the fact that you can play how you want and be creative with your builds. But it seems like this patch will have unintended consequences as it makes the quality of life for already struggling templar tanks even worse.
Consider the fact that because templar tanks do not have a health based heal many of them resorted to using vampiric drain and earthgore to supplement their weak self heals. Vampiric drain was used because it scales with missing health but it was always sub-par compared to other class self heals because you need to channel it and cant block cast it in emergency situations. Now that being a vampire will make resource sustain even harder for a tank, vampire drain is no longer worth using when you need immediate healing.
Earthgore was just nerfed into oblivion with an average healing reduction of approximately 50% less healing per second. The only reason a templar tank used that was as a substitute burst heal that a templars weak self heals could proc.
When you put all of this together as a Templar tank you are still left with no health based burst heal(like every other class has) and the only crutches templar tanks previously had(vampiric drain and earthgore) were just nerfed into oblivion.
This will result in templar tank being without a doubt the worst pve tanks in the game and makes their quality of life so poor that they are literally not even worth the trouble to play anymore.
The biggest selling point of this game is the fact that it let's you play how you want and play any role you want. You should be able to Tank, heal or Dps on any class or race.

Zippy81

Players first don't like standardization attempts and then ask for it themselves. Classes are unique because they have different ways to achieve the same goals. Templars have so many abilities to heal, it's just a bit of an exercise to build it properly. That's why I can't agree - templars don't need a health scaling healing ability.

I personally like it that classes have their strong and their weak sides. If a class has no weak sides, it's simply overpowered.

OG_Kaveman

Every other class has a self heal based on max or missing health. Why should templar tanks be uniquely disadvantaged?

Every other class has a spammable that does direct damage. Why should sorc dps be uniquely disadvantaged?

Every other class has a burst heal based on spell damage and max magic that can heal yourself. Why should magic nightblades be uniquely disadvantaged?

or on the other hand.

Every other class has do not have access to minor berserk . Why should warden dps be uniquely advantaged?

Every other class has do not have access to Major Evasion . Why should nightblade tanks be uniquely advantaged?

ETC ETC

as i have said, classes are defined by what they do not have just as much as what they dont. eventually, you just got to get over this mentality, that being complaining about what you dont have, and just play the game we have.

and yes, i am insane. so are you if you dont ever use the skill on a tank.

Iron_Blurr

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

Every other class has a self heal based on max or missing health. Why should templar tanks be uniquely disadvantaged?

Every other class has a spammable that does direct damage. Why should sorc dps be uniquely disadvantaged?

Every other class has a burst heal based on spell damage and max magic that can heal yourself. Why should magic nightblades be uniquely disadvantaged?

or on the other hand.

Every other class has do not have access to minor berserk . Why should warden dps be uniquely advantaged?

Every other class has do not have access to Major Evasion . Why should nightblade tanks be uniquely advantaged?

ETC ETC

as i have said, classes are defined by what they do not have just as much as what they dont. eventually, you just got to get over this mentality, that being complaining about what you dont have, and just play the game we have.

and yes, i am insane. so are you if you dont ever use the skill on a tank.

You're missing the fact that there are alternative skills to fill in the gaps for everything you just said.
Sorc doesn't have a direct damage spammable but they DO have access to force pulse and ele weapon.
Nightblades have access to many hots that scale with spell damage and they also have access to restoration staff skills and things like meditate or structured entropy.
Also every class has access to minor berserk through combat prayer or slimecraw or if you are a stam dps running camo hunter.
Every class tank has access to major evasion through dual wield blade cloak or armor sets.

None of your examples compare to not having a health based self heal. You can go through every single world, guild, weapon, armor or other skill lines and you will not find a generic version of a health based self heal.
So yes, templar tank is UNIQUELY disadvantaged.
Also a health based heal is not a luxury. It's a necessity for tanks. You can still perform well on every other class/role combo you used as an example. But for a Templar tank not having a self heal based on mag means they have to resort to things like vigor or breath of life for their burst heals. Both of those are extremely weak on a tank since they scale with spell/weapon damage. Honor the dead is especially risky because it is a smart heal making it target the nearest ally with the lowest health. Sometimes that may be a dps nearby taking damage. If your heal targets them when you really need a self heal you're in big trouble. You can guarantee a heal on yourself by using healing ritual(the clap heal) but that's ridiculously expensive at 6-7k mag per cast. And it's still very weak on a tank spec since tanks needs stamina and a good amount of health.

ZeroXFF

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

Every other class has a self heal based on max or missing health. Why should templar tanks be uniquely disadvantaged?

Every other class has a spammable that does direct damage. Why should sorc dps be uniquely disadvantaged?

Every other class has a burst heal based on spell damage and max magic that can heal yourself. Why should magic nightblades be uniquely disadvantaged?

or on the other hand.

Every other class has do not have access to minor berserk . Why should warden dps be uniquely advantaged?

Every other class has do not have access to Major Evasion . Why should nightblade tanks be uniquely advantaged?

ETC ETC

as i have said, classes are defined by what they do not have just as much as what they dont. eventually, you just got to get over this mentality, that being complaining about what you dont have, and just play the game we have.

and yes, i am insane. so are you if you dont ever use the skill on a tank.

1. Templars do not have a direct damage class spammable, they have a cast time spammable that nobody uses (just like the sorc spammable) and a channeling spammable. So sorcs are not unique in that regard. But in fact both of them do have direct damage spammables - Force Pulse, Crushing Weapon and a bunch of other options through the various weapon skill lines.
2. Everyone does have access to minor berserk with 100% uptime, at least if they play stam (Camouflaged Hunter from Fighters Guild).
3. Nightblades do have a burst heal based on spell damage and max mag - combat prayer. If you build for healing, you have all of the tools you need for it, even on a NB.

Templars do not have an on-demand HP% heal if they build for tanking. There are no non-class skills like that that could stand in in its place, unlike with most other things you mentioned. Channeling skills are instantly disqualified because of the realities of how tanking works, and even more so if to get access to them you have to cripple your sustain. And Absorb Missile is disqualified, because 1. you're not in control of when it procs and 2. not all damage is a projectile, so most of the time it won't even work at all.

As for major evasion, yes, nobody else has that except for NBs (can't expect tanks to use 5p medium armor or dw for it). But there is a difference between having something unique and not having what everyone else has. The former makes your class special, the latter makes your class handicapped when it's something that is as vital to your role as an HP% healing skill is for tanks.

Iron_Blurr

Here let's try this a different way to drive the point home. If you guys are arguing that every class tank has strengths and weaknesses then please tell me what the strength of a templar tank is? What does a templar tank have that no other tank has that justifies them not having a health based self heal?
You might say minor fracture and breach but thats not true. Poisons can provide that and there are armor sets that provide those debuffs.
You might say they have access to an on demand purge but thats also not true. Any tank can run efficient purge and wardens have blue betty.
You could say they get minor protection from the aedric spear passive but every tank gets that from ransack or temporal guard.
You could say they get a group spear synergy but everyone can use orbs.
You could say they get a health based damage shield but dks get igneous and everyone can use defensive posture or bone shield.
So tell me what's the big secret here? What do templar tanks have that no other tank can get? What makes them so powerful that they have to be disqualified from having a health based self heal?
Maybe it's sucking the life out of corpses on the ground for your advantage? OH wait necros do that better.
Maybe it's rezing teammates faster? Oh wait necros do that better too..
Someone please tell me the secret potential of the templar tank.

Tobironic

Making templar viable as tank could even make me return to the game.

xaraan

I don't get all the whataboutisms going on.

Talking about what X class has for whatever use and using it as an example against why we shouldn't fix another class suggests that all the other classes are perfectly balanced and developed as well. For example, Sorc not having a class spammable is not a valid reason to bring into a discussion about Templar not having a good self heal for tanking use. That's a whole different discussion about sorcs and why it is or isn't a good thing will be based on completely different reasons.

Templar does not have a great self heal, as it stands they are making due with a variety of heals that scale off of damage like Breath of Life (also a smart heal where you might not even get the heal after spending the magic) or vigor. Fortunately, these work for 90% of the content just fine and make even the last 10% do-able but chancy. So it's makes the discussion messy like this one has been where any player that has never done HM trials or maybe a few of the hardest HM dungeons will never see the need for a better heal on the class. So they all chime in about why it's not needed.

Plus, PvP concerns influence things. Templars are seen as strong in pvp, some say too strong (I disagree, I just think they aren't as hard to play strong as some other classes so it's more obvious) and they worry about a self heal making them even stronger. I've played every variety of templar in pvp (stamplar, magplar, tankplar, straight healer, heal/tank, etc) and the concern is valid but only in the sense you'd want to take away the choice of them having access to a different sort of heal. This is why I've suggested making honor the dead morph the self heal, so you'd lose access to Breath of Life on the same build. I think having both Breath and a self heal at the same time would be a bit strong.

All I can say is that the class definitely comes up short for end-game hard core content pve tanking vs. every other class in the game. It doesn't bring much to the table for a group either, so it's not worth dealing with the fact that it's twice as much work to tank on the class vs another class. Even if the class had a good self heal, there would still be so many other reasons to bring a different tank class into a party. But it's definitely a problem that can be fixed and should be fixed.