Zaan... are you kidding?

daemonor

John_Falstaff wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I definitely don't want to see Zaan or any other Monster hats get nerfed. Instead, I would like to see all sets brought up to the level of Zaan.

That said, it's rather obvious that Zaan is someone on the combat team's favorite set, as not only is it miraculously avoiding getting backed over by the Nerf Bus but it has also somehow managed to finagle buffs for itself in the process.

Even though its not used in every fight, the magDPS monoculture of Zaan is almost as strong as the PvP monoculture of Bloodspawn was. Yes, that speaks to the strength of the set but it also speaks to the fundamental weaknesses of its competitors, weaknesses that could be ameliorated with some timely buffs.

And then of course there's the *grumble grumble* awful balancing by spreadsheet *grumble grumble* angle that somehow says that the monster DPS of Zaan is fine but that a niche set like Grundwulf (or Infernal Guardian), yeah, that's OP and has got to go.

I wouldn't say monoculture, really. Yes, it's the strongest set for a parse fight (where it applies - it doesn't work in vSS for instance), but it's niche. Kjalnar could compete with it, if only it wasn't bugged right now with cooldown of stacks too long for LA weaving. But generally, you can't get away with only having Zaan because most of the time you'll have a useless set on you. You want Grundwulf (rip) for times when you're not getting enough support, you want Slimecraw when you can't get Prayer uptime, you want Balorgh (rip) for bursty fights, you even want two crit pieces when nothing else implies (I sometimes use it to compensate for crit rate when I use infused prismatic front on occasion). So, it is strong. But in many situations, it simply doesn't work.

Why isn't there a single word about kjalnar by anyone on the forums? If it's really not working as intended it should deserve to be at least fixed by greymoor, stamina have velidreth marselok and selene to choose from at least that are just slap on and forget type of sets. They could at least bring up Nerienth and Skoria to do better damage in ideal conditions, Nerienth does like 2k-2.5k (but hurr durr aoe) on a dummy and Skoria is even worse than that. Make it a real fight where crystals can be avoided and it's even less.

WrathOfInnos

daemonor wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I definitely don't want to see Zaan or any other Monster hats get nerfed. Instead, I would like to see all sets brought up to the level of Zaan.

That said, it's rather obvious that Zaan is someone on the combat team's favorite set, as not only is it miraculously avoiding getting backed over by the Nerf Bus but it has also somehow managed to finagle buffs for itself in the process.

Even though its not used in every fight, the magDPS monoculture of Zaan is almost as strong as the PvP monoculture of Bloodspawn was. Yes, that speaks to the strength of the set but it also speaks to the fundamental weaknesses of its competitors, weaknesses that could be ameliorated with some timely buffs.

And then of course there's the *grumble grumble* awful balancing by spreadsheet *grumble grumble* angle that somehow says that the monster DPS of Zaan is fine but that a niche set like Grundwulf (or Infernal Guardian), yeah, that's OP and has got to go.

I wouldn't say monoculture, really. Yes, it's the strongest set for a parse fight (where it applies - it doesn't work in vSS for instance), but it's niche. Kjalnar could compete with it, if only it wasn't bugged right now with cooldown of stacks too long for LA weaving. But generally, you can't get away with only having Zaan because most of the time you'll have a useless set on you. You want Grundwulf (rip) for times when you're not getting enough support, you want Slimecraw when you can't get Prayer uptime, you want Balorgh (rip) for bursty fights, you even want two crit pieces when nothing else implies (I sometimes use it to compensate for crit rate when I use infused prismatic front on occasion). So, it is strong. But in many situations, it simply doesn't work.

Why isn't there a single word about kjalnar by anyone on the forums? If it's really not working as intended it should deserve to be at least fixed by greymoor, stamina have velidreth marselok and selene to choose from at least that are just slap on and forget type of sets. They could at least bring up Nerienth and Skoria to do better damage in ideal conditions, Nerienth does like 2k-2.5k (but hurr durr aoe) on a dummy and Skoria is even worse than that. Make it a real fight where crystals can be avoided and it's even less.

@daemonor There are several. Here is mine from when I first discovered the issue over 2 months ago. No dev response

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/514783/kjalnars-nightmare-bugged#latest

It’s also been reported using the in-game system, commented on the item set feedback thread, and added to the list of know issues that the class reps gave to the devs.

Universe

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It seems obvious to me that certain posters don't play non-Sorc Magicka builds in no-CP PvP. Saying something like, "Just dodge roll out of the Zaan's beam LOL!" seems pretty silly to me. There's apparently no understanding of just how much root and snare spam there can be in a number of different BG matchups, particularly up against the higher MMR Stam players and Mag DKs, and just how little dodge rolling you can actually afford to do as a Magicka build. Maybe you survive the first Zaan by breaking the Petrify + immediately dodge rolling (while hoping there's no lag), but do you survive the Leap that lands mid dodge roll? What about when the next Petrify comes and your stamina is low?

With how big some of the defensive monster set nerfs have been, and with how strong Zaan is (and has been since it was put in the game), I think it could use a pretty sizable blow with the nerf bat.

I couldn't agree more.
Sadly, ZOS choose to ignore the fact that Zaan is overperforming.
Maybe it will change sometime in the future, but given that Zaan is OP for years(12 February 2018), it seems unlikely they will touch it.
I have no idea why, maybe they are trying to avoid the wrath of its users or they are just aware of it's OP status and are fine with it.

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

After removing and editing a few comments due to Baiting, we would like to remind everyone that all posts are to be kept civil, constructive, and within the guidelines of the rules we have in place. Baiting is a violation of the rules and is stated as follows:

Trolling or Baiting: The act of trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.

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Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

MashmalloMan

Hilarious

Love these posts, it's called "Public Test Server" for a reason. No wonder ZOS doesn't listen to us.

YandereGirlfriend

John_Falstaff wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I definitely don't want to see Zaan or any other Monster hats get nerfed. Instead, I would like to see all sets brought up to the level of Zaan.

That said, it's rather obvious that Zaan is someone on the combat team's favorite set, as not only is it miraculously avoiding getting backed over by the Nerf Bus but it has also somehow managed to finagle buffs for itself in the process.

Even though its not used in every fight, the magDPS monoculture of Zaan is almost as strong as the PvP monoculture of Bloodspawn was. Yes, that speaks to the strength of the set but it also speaks to the fundamental weaknesses of its competitors, weaknesses that could be ameliorated with some timely buffs.

And then of course there's the *grumble grumble* awful balancing by spreadsheet *grumble grumble* angle that somehow says that the monster DPS of Zaan is fine but that a niche set like Grundwulf (or Infernal Guardian), yeah, that's OP and has got to go.

I wouldn't say monoculture, really. Yes, it's the strongest set for a parse fight (where it applies - it doesn't work in vSS for instance), but it's niche. Kjalnar could compete with it, if only it wasn't bugged right now with cooldown of stacks too long for LA weaving. But generally, you can't get away with only having Zaan because most of the time you'll have a useless set on you. You want Grundwulf (rip) for times when you're not getting enough support, you want Slimecraw when you can't get Prayer uptime, you want Balorgh (rip) for bursty fights, you even want two crit pieces when nothing else implies (I sometimes use it to compensate for crit rate when I use infused prismatic front on occasion). So, it is strong. But in many situations, it simply doesn't work.

Sure, that's a better definition but it doesn't really speak to the root of what I'm talking about.

The fundamental "WTF" of the Zaan buff is that we somehow live in a universe where the devs looked at Grundwulf (and Infernal Guardian) and their spreadsheet concluded "This is massively overpowered and requires a correspondingly massive nerf" while simultaneously it looked at the best-parsing magDPS and stamDPS (Selene's) sets and not only did the spreadsheet conclude that they were not overpowered but instead determined that they were actually underpowered. I mean, what?!

John_Falstaff

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I definitely don't want to see Zaan or any other Monster hats get nerfed. Instead, I would like to see all sets brought up to the level of Zaan.

That said, it's rather obvious that Zaan is someone on the combat team's favorite set, as not only is it miraculously avoiding getting backed over by the Nerf Bus but it has also somehow managed to finagle buffs for itself in the process.

Even though its not used in every fight, the magDPS monoculture of Zaan is almost as strong as the PvP monoculture of Bloodspawn was. Yes, that speaks to the strength of the set but it also speaks to the fundamental weaknesses of its competitors, weaknesses that could be ameliorated with some timely buffs.

And then of course there's the *grumble grumble* awful balancing by spreadsheet *grumble grumble* angle that somehow says that the monster DPS of Zaan is fine but that a niche set like Grundwulf (or Infernal Guardian), yeah, that's OP and has got to go.

I wouldn't say monoculture, really. Yes, it's the strongest set for a parse fight (where it applies - it doesn't work in vSS for instance), but it's niche. Kjalnar could compete with it, if only it wasn't bugged right now with cooldown of stacks too long for LA weaving. But generally, you can't get away with only having Zaan because most of the time you'll have a useless set on you. You want Grundwulf (rip) for times when you're not getting enough support, you want Slimecraw when you can't get Prayer uptime, you want Balorgh (rip) for bursty fights, you even want two crit pieces when nothing else implies (I sometimes use it to compensate for crit rate when I use infused prismatic front on occasion). So, it is strong. But in many situations, it simply doesn't work.

Sure, that's a better definition but it doesn't really speak to the root of what I'm talking about.

The fundamental "WTF" of the Zaan buff is that we somehow live in a universe where the devs looked at Grundwulf (and Infernal Guardian) and their spreadsheet concluded "This is massively overpowered and requires a correspondingly massive nerf" while simultaneously it looked at the best-parsing magDPS and stamDPS (Selene's) sets and not only did the spreadsheet conclude that they were not overpowered but instead determined that they were actually underpowered. I mean, what?!

[Snip] I'm just as bewildered by the Grundwulf nerf, on live it's a very serious sacrifice of damage for a counterpart of tri-stat regen food, nobody wants to run it if they're not forced to (mostly by circumstances - lack of group support and whatnot). And I think that both Zaan and Grundwulf are in good place on live, one offset by being melee-only, another by the fact that one has to keep on dealing damage (and critting) to simply gain sustain that's normally gained from Witchmother's or DCT.

Maybe it's marketing again. Maybe they wanted to push the new sustain set, but it's definitely misguided, those sets are different beasts for different purposes. Come new dungeons with new damage sets, and they'll nerf Zaan to make new shinies worth paying for.

[Edited for bashing]

WrathOfInnos

John_Falstaff wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I definitely don't want to see Zaan or any other Monster hats get nerfed. Instead, I would like to see all sets brought up to the level of Zaan.

That said, it's rather obvious that Zaan is someone on the combat team's favorite set, as not only is it miraculously avoiding getting backed over by the Nerf Bus but it has also somehow managed to finagle buffs for itself in the process.

Even though its not used in every fight, the magDPS monoculture of Zaan is almost as strong as the PvP monoculture of Bloodspawn was. Yes, that speaks to the strength of the set but it also speaks to the fundamental weaknesses of its competitors, weaknesses that could be ameliorated with some timely buffs.

And then of course there's the *grumble grumble* awful balancing by spreadsheet *grumble grumble* angle that somehow says that the monster DPS of Zaan is fine but that a niche set like Grundwulf (or Infernal Guardian), yeah, that's OP and has got to go.

I wouldn't say monoculture, really. Yes, it's the strongest set for a parse fight (where it applies - it doesn't work in vSS for instance), but it's niche. Kjalnar could compete with it, if only it wasn't bugged right now with cooldown of stacks too long for LA weaving. But generally, you can't get away with only having Zaan because most of the time you'll have a useless set on you. You want Grundwulf (rip) for times when you're not getting enough support, you want Slimecraw when you can't get Prayer uptime, you want Balorgh (rip) for bursty fights, you even want two crit pieces when nothing else implies (I sometimes use it to compensate for crit rate when I use infused prismatic front on occasion). So, it is strong. But in many situations, it simply doesn't work.

Sure, that's a better definition but it doesn't really speak to the root of what I'm talking about.

The fundamental "WTF" of the Zaan buff is that we somehow live in a universe where the devs looked at Grundwulf (and Infernal Guardian) and their spreadsheet concluded "This is massively overpowered and requires a correspondingly massive nerf" while simultaneously it looked at the best-parsing magDPS and stamDPS (Selene's) sets and not only did the spreadsheet conclude that they were not overpowered but instead determined that they were actually underpowered. I mean, what?!

[Snip] I'm just as bewildered by the Grundwulf nerf, on live it's a very serious sacrifice of damage for a counterpart of tri-stat regen food, nobody wants to run it if they're not forced to (mostly by circumstances - lack of group support and whatnot). And I think that both Zaan and Grundwulf are in good place on live, one offset by being melee-only, another by the fact that one has to keep on dealing damage (and critting) to simply gain sustain that's normally gained from Witchmother's or DCT.

Maybe it's marketing again. Maybe they wanted to push the new sustain set, but it's definitely misguided, those sets are different beasts for different purposes. Come new dungeons with new damage sets, and they'll nerf Zaan to make new shinies worth paying for.
[Edited for bashing]

I feel like the Grundwulf nerf was to balance it with Bloodthorn. Now both give around 130-140 primary resource per second, as well as some secondary resource for utility. The problem with this type of balancing is that Bloodthorn is a trash-tier set that nobody uses for anything.

The part that makes it hilariously stupid is that Amberplasm, the 3rd set similar to Grund and Bloodthorn, was actually buffed. It now gives 276 tri-stat resource. With no % modifiers on recovery, it would give the same 138 primary resource per second (with no RNG or proc conditions). However, every build in existence has % modifiers on recovery, from CP’s, potions, Armor passives, class passives, etc. Typically totaling around 70% increase on recovery, and bringing Amberplasm up to around 230-240 primary resource per second (far more than the pre-nerf Grundwulf with a cap of 200 on primary and 100 on secondary).

Does the combat team not know this? It seems like a perfect example of spreadsheet balancing, with no real thought or understanding put into how these 3 sets work.

Juhasow

John_Falstaff wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I definitely don't want to see Zaan or any other Monster hats get nerfed. Instead, I would like to see all sets brought up to the level of Zaan.

That said, it's rather obvious that Zaan is someone on the combat team's favorite set, as not only is it miraculously avoiding getting backed over by the Nerf Bus but it has also somehow managed to finagle buffs for itself in the process.

Even though its not used in every fight, the magDPS monoculture of Zaan is almost as strong as the PvP monoculture of Bloodspawn was. Yes, that speaks to the strength of the set but it also speaks to the fundamental weaknesses of its competitors, weaknesses that could be ameliorated with some timely buffs.

And then of course there's the *grumble grumble* awful balancing by spreadsheet *grumble grumble* angle that somehow says that the monster DPS of Zaan is fine but that a niche set like Grundwulf (or Infernal Guardian), yeah, that's OP and has got to go.

I wouldn't say monoculture, really. Yes, it's the strongest set for a parse fight (where it applies - it doesn't work in vSS for instance), but it's niche. Kjalnar could compete with it, if only it wasn't bugged right now with cooldown of stacks too long for LA weaving. But generally, you can't get away with only having Zaan because most of the time you'll have a useless set on you. You want Grundwulf (rip) for times when you're not getting enough support, you want Slimecraw when you can't get Prayer uptime, you want Balorgh (rip) for bursty fights, you even want two crit pieces when nothing else implies (I sometimes use it to compensate for crit rate when I use infused prismatic front on occasion). So, it is strong. But in many situations, it simply doesn't work.

Sure, that's a better definition but it doesn't really speak to the root of what I'm talking about.

The fundamental "WTF" of the Zaan buff is that we somehow live in a universe where the devs looked at Grundwulf (and Infernal Guardian) and their spreadsheet concluded "This is massively overpowered and requires a correspondingly massive nerf" while simultaneously it looked at the best-parsing magDPS and stamDPS (Selene's) sets and not only did the spreadsheet conclude that they were not overpowered but instead determined that they were actually underpowered. I mean, what?!

[Snip] I'm just as bewildered by the Grundwulf nerf, on live it's a very serious sacrifice of damage for a counterpart of tri-stat regen food, nobody wants to run it if they're not forced to (mostly by circumstances - lack of group support and whatnot). And I think that both Zaan and Grundwulf are in good place on live, one offset by being melee-only, another by the fact that one has to keep on dealing damage (and critting) to simply gain sustain that's normally gained from Witchmother's or DCT.

Maybe it's marketing again. Maybe they wanted to push the new sustain set, but it's definitely misguided, those sets are different beasts for different purposes. Come new dungeons with new damage sets, and they'll nerf Zaan to make new shinies worth paying for.
[Edited for bashing]

To understand ZoS's reasoning behind Grundwulf's nerf You need to read developer comment underneath Engine Guardian changes.

Juhasow

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Tooltip is 42210
Compared to current 35400

Yes it's a buff, but where are you getting 100k+ from

They're multiplying each previous value by 2, not the base value, and counting the first tick too early.

So initial hit = 2000 damage
tick 1 = 2000*2 = 4000
tick 2 = 4000*2 = 8000
tick 3 = 8000*2 = 16000
tick 4 = 16000*2 = 32000
tick 5 = 32000*2 = 64000
tick 6= 64000*2 = 120000

vs each tick being X times the base damage (2000*2, 2000*3, etc)

@SidraWillowsky sorry but no. it would be nice if You would test something 1st before You provide incorrect calculations.

WrathOfInnos

Juhasow wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I definitely don't want to see Zaan or any other Monster hats get nerfed. Instead, I would like to see all sets brought up to the level of Zaan.

That said, it's rather obvious that Zaan is someone on the combat team's favorite set, as not only is it miraculously avoiding getting backed over by the Nerf Bus but it has also somehow managed to finagle buffs for itself in the process.

Even though its not used in every fight, the magDPS monoculture of Zaan is almost as strong as the PvP monoculture of Bloodspawn was. Yes, that speaks to the strength of the set but it also speaks to the fundamental weaknesses of its competitors, weaknesses that could be ameliorated with some timely buffs.

And then of course there's the *grumble grumble* awful balancing by spreadsheet *grumble grumble* angle that somehow says that the monster DPS of Zaan is fine but that a niche set like Grundwulf (or Infernal Guardian), yeah, that's OP and has got to go.

I wouldn't say monoculture, really. Yes, it's the strongest set for a parse fight (where it applies - it doesn't work in vSS for instance), but it's niche. Kjalnar could compete with it, if only it wasn't bugged right now with cooldown of stacks too long for LA weaving. But generally, you can't get away with only having Zaan because most of the time you'll have a useless set on you. You want Grundwulf (rip) for times when you're not getting enough support, you want Slimecraw when you can't get Prayer uptime, you want Balorgh (rip) for bursty fights, you even want two crit pieces when nothing else implies (I sometimes use it to compensate for crit rate when I use infused prismatic front on occasion). So, it is strong. But in many situations, it simply doesn't work.

Sure, that's a better definition but it doesn't really speak to the root of what I'm talking about.

The fundamental "WTF" of the Zaan buff is that we somehow live in a universe where the devs looked at Grundwulf (and Infernal Guardian) and their spreadsheet concluded "This is massively overpowered and requires a correspondingly massive nerf" while simultaneously it looked at the best-parsing magDPS and stamDPS (Selene's) sets and not only did the spreadsheet conclude that they were not overpowered but instead determined that they were actually underpowered. I mean, what?!

[Snip] I'm just as bewildered by the Grundwulf nerf, on live it's a very serious sacrifice of damage for a counterpart of tri-stat regen food, nobody wants to run it if they're not forced to (mostly by circumstances - lack of group support and whatnot). And I think that both Zaan and Grundwulf are in good place on live, one offset by being melee-only, another by the fact that one has to keep on dealing damage (and critting) to simply gain sustain that's normally gained from Witchmother's or DCT.

Maybe it's marketing again. Maybe they wanted to push the new sustain set, but it's definitely misguided, those sets are different beasts for different purposes. Come new dungeons with new damage sets, and they'll nerf Zaan to make new shinies worth paying for.
[Edited for bashing]

To understand ZoS's reasoning behind Grundwulf's nerf You need to read developer comment underneath Engine Guardian changes.

I disagree. The developer comment for Engine Guardian stated “Engine Guardian is a set that was made during a very different time of the game's life and has significantly affected balance decisions made for other resource return sets. Often times, Monster Masks that deal with resource management would be significantly stronger than 5 piece counterparts because of this. By reducing the total regeneration possible from this set, we can allow for a healthier balance between all sets in the game.“

Grundwulf was released in Scalebreaker only 2 patches ago, and was already very closely balanced with other sustain sets in the game. Pre-nerf Grundwulf was typically within 10% of pre-buffed Amberplasm. The original Grundwulf was also comparable in power to sets like Warlock (max 252 primary resource per sec, vs the 200 primary and 100 secondary on Grund). Buffing Amber and nerfing Grund makes zero sense, especially considering the dev comment about EG.

akdave0

Why does it matter with battle spirit in place for pvp? In pve vet hm trials these sets are viable. Asking for nerfs because you’re getting handed in pvp isn’t the solution. Maybe put some points into health and learn to roll dodge out of the beam.

liningtonsweldingb16_ESO

Zaan is carry plain and simple.. theres too
Many builds out there that completely revolves around zann and they’re straight cancer for the game from a PvP perspective

Danksta

Universe wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

You know I actually TESTED it and it doesn't do 8k dps with elfbane now like it does on a live, illambris now outperforms zaan. Plus the amount of times i actually had the opportunity to get a full channel of zaan in the real world scenario made me quesion if I wanna use it at all.

I tested it too, just now.
Same build, same char.

39.2K overall damage on Live, 47.3K overall damage on PTS.

Zaan got buffed by approx 17.2% on PTS.

Note: I didn't use elfbane in my tests.

Now compare numbers to the wild untested conjectures from OP. And look at the new ramp-up curve. Yes, if you're not breaking Zaan before all ticks are through, you deserved to die, but if you're not standing in stupid, Zaan will be hitting you for less now.

The OP is wrong with the stated numbers.
But Zaan is already overperforming on Live and does not deserve a buff.
PVP or not, it is OP in PVE too.

It's a situationally good set. It's not used in trash fights. It's not used in vSS or vAS, probably not much in vCR.

John_Falstaff

Danksta wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

You know I actually TESTED it and it doesn't do 8k dps with elfbane now like it does on a live, illambris now outperforms zaan. Plus the amount of times i actually had the opportunity to get a full channel of zaan in the real world scenario made me quesion if I wanna use it at all.

I tested it too, just now.
Same build, same char.

39.2K overall damage on Live, 47.3K overall damage on PTS.

Zaan got buffed by approx 17.2% on PTS.

Note: I didn't use elfbane in my tests.

Now compare numbers to the wild untested conjectures from OP. And look at the new ramp-up curve. Yes, if you're not breaking Zaan before all ticks are through, you deserved to die, but if you're not standing in stupid, Zaan will be hitting you for less now.

The OP is wrong with the stated numbers.
But Zaan is already overperforming on Live and does not deserve a buff.
PVP or not, it is OP in PVE too.

It's a situationally good set. It's not used in trash fights. It's not used in vSS or vAS, probably not much in vCR.

Grothdarr is currently the vCR meta, but sh-h-h-h, I didn't say that, else people will recall that you need to go out of Grothdarr's AoE too not to get hit, oh my...

Troodon80

People are confusing the damage ramping of this set as being +50% per tick, as initial tick, +50%, +50%, +50%, +50%, 50%. Which is not the case. Here is some very basic tests on a Precursor.

Live:


PTS:


Tooltips from Live and PTS:

On Live, the first incremental tick is approximately 38.175%. On PTS, it's roughly 76.34%. That's approximately double, as you would expect given the change from 50% to 100%. This initial value is then added to each tick after. Not each tick+50% of the last. The 50% is from the base value of Zaan, not what you see on the tooltip.

These two numbers respectively:

Decreased the initial damage of this set to 2010, down from 3440.

That's 50% of 3440 (=1720) applied to every tick on Live and 100% of 2010 (=2010) applied to every tick on the PTS.

Here are the numbers:



Edited for wrong adding of values in the last image. ~8k total increased damage over Live, but with less front-loaded damage.

montiferus

John_Falstaff wrote: »

There's no such thing as standing in stupid with Zaan, it's not a ground effect. There's no need to ridiculously downplay its effectiveness. And it also doesn't break (and never did) when you break LOS. Your only option is to socially distance yourself from your opponent, which is easier said than done if they are CC immune.

Standing in stupid with Zaan means staying in melee range while it's active. It's same as facetanking DK (with melee range of 7m). If you're doing that, then you have bigger problems than Zaan.[/quote]

You're making less sense with every post. You made your correct point, about the scaling of the dmg. Maybe back away from commenting on things you don't seem to have experience on, like how easy it is to keep zaan on an opponent. Players are not pre-scripted bosses, letting you do what you want.[/quote]

As usual, PvP people first don't test anything, and then use ad hominem arguments instead of getting good as they should.


But of course, people never remember there are cooldowns too... Who am I even talking to.[/quote]

As usual PVE people speak about PVP problems when they have no idea what they are talking about.

John_Falstaff

@montiferus , well, from the very first post in this thread, PvP people have shown that they have no idea what they're talking about, they're not testing anything and just, as per habit, panic at the first sight of any change.

Special thanks to @Troodon80 who brought numbers that show that PvP people have six bloody GCDs of less damage than on live from Zaan, and only if they loiter in melee range for six seconds straight, they'll eat an extra tick that is stronger than live. If you didn't manage to break measure with someone inside six seconds, then you deserve to take all they're throwing at you.

Toc de Malsvi

Troodon80 wrote: »

People are confusing the damage ramping of this set as being +50% per tick, as initial tick, +50%, +50%, +50%, +50%, 50%. Which is not the case. Here is some very basic tests on a Precursor.

Live:


PTS:


Tooltips from Live and PTS:

On Live, the first incremental tick is approximately 38.175%. On PTS, it's roughly 76.34%. That's approximately double, as you would expect given the change from 50% to 100%. This initial value is then added to each tick after. Not each tick+50% of the last. The 50% is from the base value of Zaan, not what you see on the tooltip.

These two numbers respectively:

Decreased the initial damage of this set to 2010, down from 3440.

That's 50% of 3440 (=1720) applied to every tick on Live and 100% of 2010 (=2010) applied to every tick on the PTS.

Here are the numbers:

Your final totals are wrong. Unless you intentionally didn’t count the final tick?

Troodon80

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Your final totals are wrong. Unless you intentionally didn’t count the final tick?

Yes, sorry, didn't count the last tick. Total is 60641, up from 52837.

Cinbri

liningtonsweldingb16_ESO wrote: »

Zaan is carry plain and simple.. theres too
Many builds out there that completely revolves around zann and they’re straight cancer for the game from a PvP perspective

People should stop use cancer excuse for everything that kills them.

OWLTHEMAD

Atherakhia wrote: »

There are so many ways to counter Zaan that I can't think of a legitimate reason to change this set for PvP reasons. Is it too powerful in PvE, maybe as it's the primary set used by most magicka users. That alone could warrant a change, but it's so close to other sets in overall performance that changing it would just make one of the other sets a must pick instead. The way this set works currently seems fine overall as its damage is comparable to couple other sets and its use is situational on the specific boss fight.

That all said, if this did need a PvP nerf, the sensible approach would be to dramatically decrease the damage it does and dramatically increase the damage multiplier to ensure the damage overall remains the same but the damage is loaded to the final couple ticks. For example, have it deal like 300 damage but the first tick does 100%, 200%, 400%, 800% (numbers chosen randomly I did not attempt to keep the DPS the same).

I actually really like this concept. Delayed punishment. It maintains its dps potential while making it far less cheesy in pvp and reinforcing its counter offensive nature in pvp. To use it offensively you have to truly commit to it, while also making the final hits more punishing.

Drdeath20

Elfbane no longer works on channels (aka zaan)

Universe

There are still a few more PTS incremental patches, maybe ZOS will surprise us and will do more balancing of item sets, there are still some key changes that should be implemented regardless of Zaan.