Zaan... are you kidding?

Chubarov_S

When the first patch notes appeared, and I saw this change, everyone assured me that "Zaan" was just a typo, and that it would be fixed immediately. But two weeks have passed and there are no changes, as if no one notices the main drama that is coming in the update:

Zaan's damage was increased almost 3 times (!!!)
It used to deal 45 365 damage in 5 seconds
Now it deals 126 630 damage in 6 seconds

Do you understand that Zaan is the most unbalanced set? It is so banned in all tournaments, because it gives too much burst damage. Now it will apply the previous indicators in 4 seconds, and twice as much in the last two seconds.
This will break the pvp, and many players have already noticed this change, tried it out, but are silent, because they themselves want to use it.
In pve, it will also become too strong, if earlier it gave +2.5K dps, now, with the updated activation conditions, it will give +7K dps. That's a lot.

This set required a rebalance: increasing the number of activations per minute, but reducing their duration with the old damage increase rates.

Now on PTS, Zaan:
Decreased the initial damage of this set to 2010, down from 3440.
Increased the damage scaling bonus to 100% per stack, up from 50%.
Increased the duration of the beam to 6 seconds, up from 5 seconds.
Increased the proc chance to 33%, up from 20%.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

kalunte

dl pts. test it. come back.

Universe

I'm not sure why but it's like ZOS never agree to nerf Zaan for some unknown reasons.
Instead they buff it...big time...
I don't understand what they are thinking.

John_Falstaff

Do you PvP folks even test stuff? Sometimes?

daemonor

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

Universe

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

WrathOfInnos

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

There’s very little difference in overall damage, and if you don’t stay connected for all 7 ticks it will be weaker than before.

Universe

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

There’s very little difference in overall damage, and if you don’t stay connected for all 7 ticks it will be weaker than before.

The initial tick decrease of damage means nothing when the scaling bonus is now doubled...100% instead of 50% and the proc chance is higher, i.e the uptime will be much greater.
I understand why PVE players want to defend it, bosses don't complain
But sets like this one breaks PVP and this one is OP for a very long time now.

mikey_reach

[snip] there’s plenty of counterplay for zaan plus you have to be in melee range which isn’t always posible.

[Edit for bait.]

Dagoth_Rac

That is not how it works.

2000-4000-6000-8000-10000

It adds 100% of the base damage (2000) to each tick. It does not double the prior tick.

daemonor

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

You know I actually TESTED it and it doesn't do 8k dps with elfbane now like it does on a live, illambris now outperforms zaan. Plus the amount of times i actually had the opportunity to get a full channel of zaan in the real world scenario made me quesion if I wanna use it at all.

ThePedge

Tooltip is 42210
Compared to current 35400

Yes it's a buff, but where are you getting 100k+ from

Atherakhia

There are so many ways to counter Zaan that I can't think of a legitimate reason to change this set for PvP reasons. Is it too powerful in PvE, maybe as it's the primary set used by most magicka users. That alone could warrant a change, but it's so close to other sets in overall performance that changing it would just make one of the other sets a must pick instead. The way this set works currently seems fine overall as its damage is comparable to couple other sets and its use is situational on the specific boss fight.

That all said, if this did need a PvP nerf, the sensible approach would be to dramatically decrease the damage it does and dramatically increase the damage multiplier to ensure the damage overall remains the same but the damage is loaded to the final couple ticks. For example, have it deal like 300 damage but the first tick does 100%, 200%, 400%, 800% (numbers chosen randomly I did not attempt to keep the DPS the same).

Universe

daemonor wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

You know I actually TESTED it and it doesn't do 8k dps with elfbane now like it does on a live, illambris now outperforms zaan. Plus the amount of times i actually had the opportunity to get a full channel of zaan in the real world scenario made me quesion if I wanna use it at all.

I tested it too, just now.
Same build, same char.

39.2K overall damage on Live, 47.3K overall damage on PTS.

Zaan got buffed by approx 17.2% on PTS.

Note: I didn't use elfbane in my tests.

John_Falstaff

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

You know I actually TESTED it and it doesn't do 8k dps with elfbane now like it does on a live, illambris now outperforms zaan. Plus the amount of times i actually had the opportunity to get a full channel of zaan in the real world scenario made me quesion if I wanna use it at all.

I tested it too, just now.
Same build, same char.

39.2K overall damage on Live, 47.3K overall damage on PTS.

Zaan got buffed by approx 17.2% on PTS.

Note: I didn't use elfbane in my tests.

Now compare numbers to the wild untested conjectures from OP. And look at the new ramp-up curve. Yes, if you're not breaking Zaan before all ticks are through, you deserved to die, but if you're not standing in stupid, Zaan will be hitting you for less now.

SidraWillowsky

ThePedge wrote: »

Tooltip is 42210
Compared to current 35400

Yes it's a buff, but where are you getting 100k+ from

They're multiplying each previous value by 2, not the base value, and counting the first tick too early.

So initial hit = 2000 damage
tick 1 = 2000*2 = 4000
tick 2 = 4000*2 = 8000
tick 3 = 8000*2 = 16000
tick 4 = 16000*2 = 32000
tick 5 = 32000*2 = 64000
tick 6= 64000*2 = 120000

vs each tick being X times the base damage (2000*2, 2000*3, etc)

Universe

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

You know I actually TESTED it and it doesn't do 8k dps with elfbane now like it does on a live, illambris now outperforms zaan. Plus the amount of times i actually had the opportunity to get a full channel of zaan in the real world scenario made me quesion if I wanna use it at all.

I tested it too, just now.
Same build, same char.

39.2K overall damage on Live, 47.3K overall damage on PTS.

Zaan got buffed by approx 17.2% on PTS.

Note: I didn't use elfbane in my tests.

Now compare numbers to the wild untested conjectures from OP. And look at the new ramp-up curve. Yes, if you're not breaking Zaan before all ticks are through, you deserved to die, but if you're not standing in stupid, Zaan will be hitting you for less now.

The OP is wrong with the stated numbers.
But Zaan is already overperforming on Live and does not deserve a buff.
PVP or not, it is OP in PVE too.

daemonor

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

You know I actually TESTED it and it doesn't do 8k dps with elfbane now like it does on a live, illambris now outperforms zaan. Plus the amount of times i actually had the opportunity to get a full channel of zaan in the real world scenario made me quesion if I wanna use it at all.

I tested it too, just now.
Same build, same char.

39.2K overall damage on Live, 47.3K overall damage on PTS.

Zaan got buffed by approx 17.2% on PTS.

Note: I didn't use elfbane in my tests.

Its a buff for everyone else but mag dk yes, but the conditions are worst too = meele + channel. I'm not defending it so i can use it in pvp, i tried it was great when it worked but too unreliable for me. The rest of the magicka dps sets are pure trash tho and why would anyone want to cry for nerfs from a pve standpoint? You wanna give AI a bigger chance?

Maulkin

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

You know I actually TESTED it and it doesn't do 8k dps with elfbane now like it does on a live, illambris now outperforms zaan. Plus the amount of times i actually had the opportunity to get a full channel of zaan in the real world scenario made me quesion if I wanna use it at all.

I tested it too, just now.
Same build, same char.

39.2K overall damage on Live, 47.3K overall damage on PTS.

Zaan got buffed by approx 17.2% on PTS.

Note: I didn't use elfbane in my tests.

Now compare numbers to the wild untested conjectures from OP. And look at the new ramp-up curve. Yes, if you're not breaking Zaan before all ticks are through, you deserved to die, but if you're not standing in stupid, Zaan will be hitting you for less now.

There's no such thing as standing in stupid with Zaan, it's not a ground effect. There's no need to ridiculously downplay its effectiveness. And it also doesn't break (and never did) when you break LOS. Your only option is to socially distance yourself from your opponent, which is easier said than done if they are CC immune.

John_Falstaff

Maulkin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

You know I actually TESTED it and it doesn't do 8k dps with elfbane now like it does on a live, illambris now outperforms zaan. Plus the amount of times i actually had the opportunity to get a full channel of zaan in the real world scenario made me quesion if I wanna use it at all.

I tested it too, just now.
Same build, same char.

39.2K overall damage on Live, 47.3K overall damage on PTS.

Zaan got buffed by approx 17.2% on PTS.

Note: I didn't use elfbane in my tests.

Now compare numbers to the wild untested conjectures from OP. And look at the new ramp-up curve. Yes, if you're not breaking Zaan before all ticks are through, you deserved to die, but if you're not standing in stupid, Zaan will be hitting you for less now.

There's no such thing as standing in stupid with Zaan, it's not a ground effect. There's no need to ridiculously downplay its effectiveness. And it also doesn't break (and never did) when you break LOS. Your only option is to socially distance yourself from your opponent, which is easier said than done if they are CC immune.

Standing in stupid with Zaan means staying in melee range while it's active. It's same as facetanking DK (with melee range of 7m). If you're doing that, then you have bigger problems than Zaan.

Papachico

It's additive on the base value not multiplicative on the prior value.

Universe

Papachico wrote: »

It's additive on the base value not multiplicative on the prior value.

It doesn't matter.
It's still OP on Live and got a significant buff on PTS.

saf227_ESO

I just want it fixed so it hits the bosses in Sunspire - which it doesn't do now.

Maulkin

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

You know I actually TESTED it and it doesn't do 8k dps with elfbane now like it does on a live, illambris now outperforms zaan. Plus the amount of times i actually had the opportunity to get a full channel of zaan in the real world scenario made me quesion if I wanna use it at all.

I tested it too, just now.
Same build, same char.

39.2K overall damage on Live, 47.3K overall damage on PTS.

Zaan got buffed by approx 17.2% on PTS.

Note: I didn't use elfbane in my tests.

Now compare numbers to the wild untested conjectures from OP. And look at the new ramp-up curve. Yes, if you're not breaking Zaan before all ticks are through, you deserved to die, but if you're not standing in stupid, Zaan will be hitting you for less now.

There's no such thing as standing in stupid with Zaan, it's not a ground effect. There's no need to ridiculously downplay its effectiveness. And it also doesn't break (and never did) when you break LOS. Your only option is to socially distance yourself from your opponent, which is easier said than done if they are CC immune.

Standing in stupid with Zaan means staying in melee range while it's active. It's same as facetanking DK (with melee range of 7m). If you're doing that, then you have bigger problems than Zaan.

You're making less sense with every post. You made your correct point, about the scaling of the dmg. Maybe back away from commenting on things you don't seem to have experience on, like how easy it is to keep zaan on an opponent. Players are not pre-scripted bosses, letting you do what you want.

rikimm16_ESO

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

You know I actually TESTED it and it doesn't do 8k dps with elfbane now like it does on a live, illambris now outperforms zaan. Plus the amount of times i actually had the opportunity to get a full channel of zaan in the real world scenario made me quesion if I wanna use it at all.

I tested it too, just now.
Same build, same char.

39.2K overall damage on Live, 47.3K overall damage on PTS.

Zaan got buffed by approx 17.2% on PTS.

Note: I didn't use elfbane in my tests.

Now compare numbers to the wild untested conjectures from OP. And look at the new ramp-up curve. Yes, if you're not breaking Zaan before all ticks are through, you deserved to die, but if you're not standing in stupid, Zaan will be hitting you for less now.

There's no such thing as standing in stupid with Zaan, it's not a ground effect. There's no need to ridiculously downplay its effectiveness. And it also doesn't break (and never did) when you break LOS. Your only option is to socially distance yourself from your opponent, which is easier said than done if they are CC immune.

Standing in stupid with Zaan means staying in melee range while it's active. It's same as facetanking DK (with melee range of 7m). If you're doing that, then you have bigger problems than Zaan.

I’m sorry, but you can’t always outrun Zaan in PvP. You say not to stay in melee range but the truth is that your opponent is not standing in stupid either. People that use this set in PvP know how to follow you when the Zaan procs, and some of them even have major expedition available to stick to you.

You may say CC and run away but CC immune exists.

Xvorg

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

You know I actually TESTED it and it doesn't do 8k dps with elfbane now like it does on a live, illambris now outperforms zaan. Plus the amount of times i actually had the opportunity to get a full channel of zaan in the real world scenario made me quesion if I wanna use it at all.

I tested it too, just now.
Same build, same char.

39.2K overall damage on Live, 47.3K overall damage on PTS.

Zaan got buffed by approx 17.2% on PTS.

Note: I didn't use elfbane in my tests.

Now compare numbers to the wild untested conjectures from OP. And look at the new ramp-up curve. Yes, if you're not breaking Zaan before all ticks are through, you deserved to die, but if you're not standing in stupid, Zaan will be hitting you for less now.

There's no such thing as standing in stupid with Zaan, it's not a ground effect. There's no need to ridiculously downplay its effectiveness. And it also doesn't break (and never did) when you break LOS. Your only option is to socially distance yourself from your opponent, which is easier said than done if they are CC immune.

Standing in stupid with Zaan means staying in melee range while it's active. It's same as facetanking DK (with melee range of 7m). If you're doing that, then you have bigger problems than Zaan.

There are some classes that just have to go melee to... dmg the enemy... so in those cases Zaan not only works as an offensive set, but also as a defensive set.

I rarely ask for nerfs, but in this case there should be a necessary rework

John_Falstaff

Maulkin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

You know I actually TESTED it and it doesn't do 8k dps with elfbane now like it does on a live, illambris now outperforms zaan. Plus the amount of times i actually had the opportunity to get a full channel of zaan in the real world scenario made me quesion if I wanna use it at all.

I tested it too, just now.
Same build, same char.

39.2K overall damage on Live, 47.3K overall damage on PTS.

Zaan got buffed by approx 17.2% on PTS.

Note: I didn't use elfbane in my tests.

Now compare numbers to the wild untested conjectures from OP. And look at the new ramp-up curve. Yes, if you're not breaking Zaan before all ticks are through, you deserved to die, but if you're not standing in stupid, Zaan will be hitting you for less now.

There's no such thing as standing in stupid with Zaan, it's not a ground effect. There's no need to ridiculously downplay its effectiveness. And it also doesn't break (and never did) when you break LOS. Your only option is to socially distance yourself from your opponent, which is easier said than done if they are CC immune.

Standing in stupid with Zaan means staying in melee range while it's active. It's same as facetanking DK (with melee range of 7m). If you're doing that, then you have bigger problems than Zaan.

You're making less sense with every post. You made your correct point, about the scaling of the dmg. Maybe back away from commenting on things you don't seem to have experience on, like how easy it is to keep zaan on an opponent. Players are not pre-scripted bosses, letting you do what you want.

As usual, PvP people first don't test anything, and then use ad hominem arguments instead of getting good as they should.

@Xvorg , you forgot that outranging Zaan even for a moment breaks the beam and puts it on cooldown. Roll back / streak / whatever, get back in and keep your melee stuff going.

But of course, people never remember there are cooldowns too... Who am I even talking to.

Xvorg

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

You're like the 5th post that got zaan quick maths wrong. Use the search function, take a breather, recalculate.

64K in 6 seconds and higher proc chance is still a major buff to a set which should be nerfed, not buffed.

You know I actually TESTED it and it doesn't do 8k dps with elfbane now like it does on a live, illambris now outperforms zaan. Plus the amount of times i actually had the opportunity to get a full channel of zaan in the real world scenario made me quesion if I wanna use it at all.

I tested it too, just now.
Same build, same char.

39.2K overall damage on Live, 47.3K overall damage on PTS.

Zaan got buffed by approx 17.2% on PTS.

Note: I didn't use elfbane in my tests.

Now compare numbers to the wild untested conjectures from OP. And look at the new ramp-up curve. Yes, if you're not breaking Zaan before all ticks are through, you deserved to die, but if you're not standing in stupid, Zaan will be hitting you for less now.

There's no such thing as standing in stupid with Zaan, it's not a ground effect. There's no need to ridiculously downplay its effectiveness. And it also doesn't break (and never did) when you break LOS. Your only option is to socially distance yourself from your opponent, which is easier said than done if they are CC immune.

Standing in stupid with Zaan means staying in melee range while it's active. It's same as facetanking DK (with melee range of 7m). If you're doing that, then you have bigger problems than Zaan.

You're making less sense with every post. You made your correct point, about the scaling of the dmg. Maybe back away from commenting on things you don't seem to have experience on, like how easy it is to keep zaan on an opponent. Players are not pre-scripted bosses, letting you do what you want.

As usual, PvP people first don't test anything, and then use ad hominem arguments instead of getting good as they should.

@Xvorg , you forgot that outranging Zaan even for a moment breaks the beam and puts it on cooldown. Roll back / streak / whatever, get back in and keep your melee stuff going.

But of course, people never remember there are cooldowns too... Who am I even talking to.

What if you use Zaan on a ranged class? You don't have to get face to face with the other guy while forcing him to keep his distance.

Malubeth was nerfed for less than that

YandereGirlfriend

I definitely don't want to see Zaan or any other Monster hats get nerfed. Instead, I would like to see all sets brought up to the level of Zaan.

That said, it's rather obvious that Zaan is someone on the combat team's favorite set, as not only is it miraculously avoiding getting backed over by the Nerf Bus but it has also somehow managed to finagle buffs for itself in the process.

Even though its not used in every fight, the magDPS monoculture of Zaan is almost as strong as the PvP monoculture of Bloodspawn was. Yes, that speaks to the strength of the set but it also speaks to the fundamental weaknesses of its competitors, weaknesses that could be ameliorated with some timely buffs.

And then of course there's the *grumble grumble* awful balancing by spreadsheet *grumble grumble* angle that somehow says that the monster DPS of Zaan is fine but that a niche set like Grundwulf (or Infernal Guardian), yeah, that's OP and has got to go.

John_Falstaff

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I definitely don't want to see Zaan or any other Monster hats get nerfed. Instead, I would like to see all sets brought up to the level of Zaan.

That said, it's rather obvious that Zaan is someone on the combat team's favorite set, as not only is it miraculously avoiding getting backed over by the Nerf Bus but it has also somehow managed to finagle buffs for itself in the process.

Even though its not used in every fight, the magDPS monoculture of Zaan is almost as strong as the PvP monoculture of Bloodspawn was. Yes, that speaks to the strength of the set but it also speaks to the fundamental weaknesses of its competitors, weaknesses that could be ameliorated with some timely buffs.

And then of course there's the *grumble grumble* awful balancing by spreadsheet *grumble grumble* angle that somehow says that the monster DPS of Zaan is fine but that a niche set like Grundwulf (or Infernal Guardian), yeah, that's OP and has got to go.

I wouldn't say monoculture, really. Yes, it's the strongest set for a parse fight (where it applies - it doesn't work in vSS for instance), but it's niche. Kjalnar could compete with it, if only it wasn't bugged right now with cooldown of stacks too long for LA weaving. But generally, you can't get away with only having Zaan because most of the time you'll have a useless set on you. You want Grundwulf (rip) for times when you're not getting enough support, you want Slimecraw when you can't get Prayer uptime, you want Balorgh (rip) for bursty fights, you even want two crit pieces when nothing else implies (I sometimes use it to compensate for crit rate when I use infused prismatic front on occasion). So, it is strong. But in many situations, it simply doesn't work.

wheem_ESO

It seems obvious to me that certain posters don't play non-Sorc Magicka builds in no-CP PvP. Saying something like, "Just dodge roll out of the Zaan's beam LOL!" seems pretty silly to me. There's apparently no understanding of just how much root and snare spam there can be in a number of different BG matchups, particularly up against the higher MMR Stam players and Mag DKs, and just how little dodge rolling you can actually afford to do as a Magicka build. Maybe you survive the first Zaan by breaking the Petrify + immediately dodge rolling (while hoping there's no lag), but do you survive the Leap that lands mid dodge roll? What about when the next Petrify comes and your stamina is low?

With how big some of the defensive monster set nerfs have been, and with how strong Zaan is (and has been since it was put in the game), I think it could use a pretty sizable blow with the nerf bat.