Vampire Ability cost weakness should they Remove it, Reduce it or Keep it?

Thevampirenight

What is the communities take on this because well its well going to be make vampire a lot more challenging. Another is they have so many weaknesses already. Fire, Fighters Guild, Prismatic enchantments and also Health Recovery.
So should they Remove it or reduce it or keep it.

joseayalac

Instead of doing this [Snip] poll, get into the PTS, try it out and give feedback.

Feedback is what developers take more into account. Why would the oppinion of people who haven't tried the Vamp revamp be constructive?

Better to invite people to try things out and give actual constructive feedback.

[Edited for baiting]

Thevampirenight

Remove the Ability cost Weakness

joseayalac wrote: »

Instead of doing this [Snip] poll, get into the PTS, try it out and give feedback.

Feedback is what developers take more into account. Why would the oppinion of people who haven't tried the Vamp revamp be constructive?

Better to invite people to try things out and give actual constructive feedback.
[Edited for baiting]

I already did, this is for the player base. What they feel they should do about it.
Plus the more people speak up hopefully we could have a better outcome for the Vampire.

relentless_turnip

Keep the Ability Cost Weakness.

I would suggest going on the PTS and making a full vampire build.
I made a vampcro high elf and at stage 4 i invested nothing in recovery.

3 infused spell damage glyphs, wearing 2 damage sets and I had no recovery issues.
By choosing a necromancer and as many vampire skills as possible. Skills cost health, or are free.

I duelled many people on it and it is OP! I will be very surprised if they don't receive a nerf in the next patch.

Paradisius

Reduce the Ability Cost Weakness.

joseayalac wrote: »

Instead of doing this [Snip] poll, get into the PTS, try it out and give feedback.

Feedback is what developers take more into account. Why would the oppinion of people who haven't tried the Vamp revamp be constructive?

Better to invite people to try things out and give actual constructive feedback.
[Edited for baiting]

Polls can be an interesting way to see community feeling. I do agree those who do make the poll choice should have at least tested it. Personally speaking, I tested it with many different setups as a Stage 4 MagCro Vamp. Ive come to the point where I provide myself with high enough dps to get accepted into vet content (74k parse was my highest) While also managing enough healing output to myself to grant high Simmering Frenzy uptime, both while having reasonable sustain. That being said, it requires using most of the Vampiric abilities and isnt advised for non MagCros (since the builds ive tried dont use precise on the front weapon or mothers sorrow, death knell makes up the lost crit in execute) All in all its very specific and niche. I am not surprised there is outcry for the values to be reduced, and I feel like its fair for them to be reduced as everyone is not a MagCro

Thevampirenight

Remove the Ability cost Weakness

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I would suggest going on the PTS and making a full vampire build.
I made a vampcro high elf and at stage 4 i invested nothing in recovery.

3 infused spell damage glyphs, wearing 2 damage sets and I had no recovery issues.
By choosing a necromancer and as many vampire skills as possible. Skills cost health, or are free.

I duelled many people on it and it is OP! I will be very surprised if they don't receive a nerf in the next patch.

Well not everyone is a necromancer and Necromancer might be a little bit overturned at the moment even without Vampire and the skills might work great with it. But what about everyone else?

relentless_turnip

Keep the Ability Cost Weakness.

Thevampirenight wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I would suggest going on the PTS and making a full vampire build.
I made a vampcro high elf and at stage 4 i invested nothing in recovery.

3 infused spell damage glyphs, wearing 2 damage sets and I had no recovery issues.
By choosing a necromancer and as many vampire skills as possible. Skills cost health, or are free.

I duelled many people on it and it is OP! I will be very surprised if they don't receive a nerf in the next patch.

Well not everyone is a necromancer and Necromancer might be a little bit overturned at the moment even without Vampire and the skills might work great with it. But what about everyone else?

It would work with a lot classes I was just giving an example. A magblade would be really good or a sorcerer, regardless the issue is (if you regard it as one) is you need to use mainly vamp skills. My front bar other than ele drain is vamp skills and you are only using class buffs and perhaps a burst heal. I put a resto on the back bar and used regen as a burst heal.

The main complaint I see is people want the convenience of vampire. I have made a completely new character to be a vampire and all my other characters are going to be cured.

I would recommend trying it,vampires are insanely strong they don't need any change in my opinion.

Thevampirenight

Remove the Ability cost Weakness

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I would suggest going on the PTS and making a full vampire build.
I made a vampcro high elf and at stage 4 i invested nothing in recovery.

3 infused spell damage glyphs, wearing 2 damage sets and I had no recovery issues.
By choosing a necromancer and as many vampire skills as possible. Skills cost health, or are free.

I duelled many people on it and it is OP! I will be very surprised if they don't receive a nerf in the next patch.

Well not everyone is a necromancer and Necromancer might be a little bit overturned at the moment even without Vampire and the skills might work great with it. But what about everyone else?

It would work with a lot classes I was just giving an example. A magblade would be really good or a sorcerer, regardless the issue is (if you regard it as one) is you need to use mainly vamp skills. My front bar other than ele drain is vamp skills and you are only using class buffs and perhaps a burst heal. I put a resto on the back bar and used regen as a burst heal.

The main complaint I see is people want the convenience of vampire. I have made a completely new character to be a vampire and all my other characters are going to be cured.

I would recommend trying it,vampires are insanely strong they don't need any change in my opinion.

I don't like that, it takes away from the freedom of choice and what I don't like is they say play the way you want and yet they try to force us to play this way or that with certain things. Vampires are not Werewolves. They should not be werewolves and we shouldn't be forced to use their abilties to be an effective vampire.
It should be a choice to use their abilties and our non vampire abilties should not be effected at all.
Going by what I've read, what this will do is make it so everything like dodge rolling and I imagine sprint without that 50% reduction along with everything ability wise that isn't part of the vampire skill line will go up by 20% at stage four. Breaking free of a stun that will cost 20% More that is what this change is doing. People might not realize this, and I'm sure some of the keep votes would change if they knew about this.
Because that is what these changes are going to do with the Vampire. Vital things will be effected by this increased cost.

relentless_turnip

Keep the Ability Cost Weakness.

Thevampirenight wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I would suggest going on the PTS and making a full vampire build.
I made a vampcro high elf and at stage 4 i invested nothing in recovery.

3 infused spell damage glyphs, wearing 2 damage sets and I had no recovery issues.
By choosing a necromancer and as many vampire skills as possible. Skills cost health, or are free.

I duelled many people on it and it is OP! I will be very surprised if they don't receive a nerf in the next patch.

Well not everyone is a necromancer and Necromancer might be a little bit overturned at the moment even without Vampire and the skills might work great with it. But what about everyone else?

It would work with a lot classes I was just giving an example. A magblade would be really good or a sorcerer, regardless the issue is (if you regard it as one) is you need to use mainly vamp skills. My front bar other than ele drain is vamp skills and you are only using class buffs and perhaps a burst heal. I put a resto on the back bar and used regen as a burst heal.

The main complaint I see is people want the convenience of vampire. I have made a completely new character to be a vampire and all my other characters are going to be cured.

I would recommend trying it,vampires are insanely strong they don't need any change in my opinion.

I don't like that forcing us into something. It takes away from the freedom of choice they should not force us to play a certain way with it and that I'm strongly against. Vampires are not Werewolves. They should not be werewolves.

Fair enough
Isn't becoming a vampire a pretty big decision though? vampires should be like werewolves in my mind. They are both creatures and the difference is a werewolf that transforms losses access to their humanity i.e. any other skills.
The vampire losses more of its humanity the more it transforms. I'm not much of a lore guy, but I think they did really well in making a vampire feel like one.

All my magicka characters are vampires at the moment so I totally understand the frustration of having to drop it.

Edit: I just realised you added more to your comment.

I built it like this: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=230785
So I was insanely fast and with the changes to crit resistance could wear 4 well fitted without an issue(crit resist is 49% on pts)
I didn't notice any increase to the cost in dodge roll, block or break free and I don't think they have been increased. I might test this tonight.

Sprinting is basically free with this set up and you turn invisible whenever you do it it is OP!

Thevampirenight

Remove the Ability cost Weakness

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I would suggest going on the PTS and making a full vampire build.
I made a vampcro high elf and at stage 4 i invested nothing in recovery.

3 infused spell damage glyphs, wearing 2 damage sets and I had no recovery issues.
By choosing a necromancer and as many vampire skills as possible. Skills cost health, or are free.

I duelled many people on it and it is OP! I will be very surprised if they don't receive a nerf in the next patch.

Well not everyone is a necromancer and Necromancer might be a little bit overturned at the moment even without Vampire and the skills might work great with it. But what about everyone else?

It would work with a lot classes I was just giving an example. A magblade would be really good or a sorcerer, regardless the issue is (if you regard it as one) is you need to use mainly vamp skills. My front bar other than ele drain is vamp skills and you are only using class buffs and perhaps a burst heal. I put a resto on the back bar and used regen as a burst heal.

The main complaint I see is people want the convenience of vampire. I have made a completely new character to be a vampire and all my other characters are going to be cured.

I would recommend trying it,vampires are insanely strong they don't need any change in my opinion.

I don't like that forcing us into something. It takes away from the freedom of choice they should not force us to play a certain way with it and that I'm strongly against. Vampires are not Werewolves. They should not be werewolves.

Fair enough
Isn't becoming a vampire a pretty big decision though? vampires should be like werewolves in my mind. They are both creatures and the difference is a werewolf that transforms losses access to their humanity i.e. any other skills.
The vampire losses more of its humanity the more it transforms. I'm not much of a lore guy, but I think they did really well in making a vampire feel like one.

All my magicka characters are vampires at the moment so I totally understand the frustration of having to drop it.

Vampires are humaniods with a curse that causes them to need to drink blood, its actually more like a magicial disease.
Vampires are not creatures and are fully sentient people while some might fall to their condition and lose their way to the point they lose touch with reality but at the same time many become powerful masters of magic. They learn magic they learn other things they gather knowledge. They might go and blend into society and live and disappear and come back. But they have no struggles using any non vampiric ability they can use any ability they want. Including sunlight magic if they wanted to that is how vampirism works in TES.

Werewolves are not like that. There are those that can control the condition but its far more primal and yes bestial and they are beastial enough they can't really do much with magic in their beast forms with some exceptions. Though some vampires can go feral and become well nothing more then attack anyone that comes in their path that is a far more common thing with werewolves as vampires can learn to control their bloodlust. Werewolves its not as easy and because they are more bestial it makes sense with them to have something like the increased ability cost weakness. Since Vampires are predators but can maintain their minds and sometimes personalities from the time they were mortal. They would not struggle at all with their normal abilties. That is just how it would be.

The increased ability cost would actually make a lot more sense being a werewolf weakness because of the bestial aspects of the condition that can effects a persons personality and even at times cause amnesia. According to the lore also werewolves might have harder time sleeping and this could also impair a person in their humanoid form because without restful sleep they are not as alert. This would mean that casting normal spells might be more challenging. So an ability cost weakness for them would make far more sense to me being a werewolf thing. Because it would fit with the nature of the lycanthropic condition and the draw backs associated with it.

HoyaCarnosa

Remove the Ability cost Weakness

Well remove it or change it so that on stage 1 you have the highest ability cost increase and on stage 4 you have no ability cost increase, so it would have a meaning to go to stage 4 and get the higher flame dmg and the less health regeneration, because then you would want to go to stage 4 to have normal ability costs, feeding that way would make sense to me, getting stronger as vampire and as result being able to use your "mortal" abilitys normally at the cost of the lives that you take while feeding.

TequilaFire

I think they should restore the FIghter's guild abilities to their former strength against player vamps.

Stx

Keep the Ability Cost Weakness.

I like that in order to play a vampire now, you have to build around it. I never liked how many vampires there were running around. It was basically a free recovery passive skill line and most build videos recommend being a vamp solely due to these passives that really had no downside.

The only thing I would change is making the tree more stamina friendly, because when you think of a vampire, usually they dont have staves. But I understand that since ww is stamina based, vamp is supposed to be mainly magicka.

Donny_Vito

I'm on console. I'm excited for more vampires.

idk

Thevampirenight wrote: »

joseayalac wrote: »

Instead of doing this pointless poll, get into the PTS, try it out and give feedback.

Feedback is what developers take more into account. Why would the oppinion of people who haven't tried the Vamp revamp be constructive?

Better to invite people to try things out and give actual constructive feedback.

I already did, this is for the player base. What they feel they should do about it.
Plus the more people speak up hopefully we could have a better outcome for the Vampire.

If they are not voting from testing it themselves or getting good information from someone that is testing it then the poll is pointless as the person you replied to responded. If I were Zos I would focus on the meaningful and constructive feedback before a poll such as this.

preevious

Keep the Ability Cost Weakness.

I answered the poll, despite it being very, so very wrong.


here's the problem, with that kind of polls.

People are not saying
"I think it's bad for the game, so they should remove it"

They are basically saying
"I fear it's bad for me, I'll be impacted, change it !"

What I mean is that no one on the forum can emit a enlightened opinion about a game mechanic, as it takes a full team of trained proffessionals to do that. And even then, that team of professionnel can make mistakes.

So, yeah. Game-balancing team decided vampire would be too string without a cost increase. It's more likely that they are right on that matter than that some random dudes and gals on the forum are right on that matter.

There's a cost increase, get over it.

peacenote

Remove the Ability cost Weakness

I think it is nice to have a poll, thanks. Helps quantify what folks are thinking as people can comment more than once in discussions.

And I still think that especially in this case, because vampires have been part of our identities for so long, it isn't JUST about testing (which console folks can't do) but also what people like and want to enjoy being a vampire. For me, I thought it was so cool that my characters could be vampires so I simply don't like this penalty, even if I could "make it work."

I chose remove as my ideal situation but I would be happy with reduce as well. Or being removed from Stage 1 and sliding the rest up (Stage 1 becomes Stage 2, etc.). I also would be fine with other penalties being added instead. Also I wouldn't mind having the ability penalty scale based on how many abilities you have on your bar. I also think they could consider making the passives only apply to vampire abilities or only when they are on your bar to avoid abuse of the passives. I also think if Supernatural Recovery was moved to another skill line - like Soul Magic - it would keep people from feeling "forced" to be vampires which makes the penalties unnecessary.

Pretty much I would like to see any concession but I just don't like the strategy of penalizing the use of other abilities... especially class abilities which are also supposed to be part of what makes each character unique. And yes, I tested on PTS.

EmEm_Oh

joseayalac wrote: »

Instead of doing this pointless poll, get into the PTS, try it out and give feedback.

Feedback is what developers take more into account. Why would the oppinion of people who haven't tried the Vamp revamp be constructive?

Better to invite people to try things out and give actual constructive feedback.

The live environment gets their attention, not the PTS. I would imagine they already have their minds made up.

Only AFTER the release date is when they take notes. And justifiably so because the PTS is not a litmus test. It's unrealistic, only used for demonstrating theory crafting and keeping streamers busy.

You need real stress testing, and the PTS doesn't have it. Let's call it what it is...a Theory Crafting Server. TCS.

Starlock

joseayalac wrote: »

Instead of doing this pointless poll, get into the PTS, try it out and give feedback.

Would if I could. Unfortunately, they exclude their console customers from PTS. As such, I have no idea how these changes are going to really impact my vampire character other than it's going to be particularly bad for him. He's a magicka character who doesn't use magicka weapons, so keeping his magicka pool up for things like soloing world bosses is already a balancing act and a greater challenge. A universal 5% cost increase on his abilities is going to suck, no two fangs about it.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

No option to increase cost? Semi serious here.

I only messed with Vamp on the first week of PTS, so take that for what its worth, and I only tested from a PVE DPS perspective. At the time, it seemed you needed both really good class sustain and good class passive heals to make it viable,but if you did, it was massively OP. This basically left mageblade going full vamp wildly ahead of everyone else.

If vamp is going to be OP DPS, it needs to be viable on all classes from a sustained DPS perspective or none of them (I dont really care if a vamp can do 30 seconds of PVE burst). Just my 2 cents.

Canned_Apples

joseayalac wrote: »

Instead of doing this [Snip] poll, get into the PTS, try it out and give feedback.

Feedback is what developers take more into account. Why would the oppinion of people who haven't tried the Vamp revamp be constructive?

Better to invite people to try things out and give actual constructive feedback.

Lol.
No they don’t.
People warned them about so many things that would break the game, but they still went through with them.

[Snip]

[Edited for bashing]

Rake

Keep the Ability Cost Weakness.

Keep it but make it 10% at stage 4

Vevvev

Remove the Ability cost Weakness

I've tested it for weeks and it's just a unnecessary weakness to be honest. It's incredibly high and ruins the ability for some classes to even mesh well with the vampire playstyle. Add on top of this the reduced health recovery, Fighter's guild abilities, Prismatic weapon enchantments, and flame damage and it makes the weaknesses far outweigh the benefits. So much so my performance was better as a mortal instead of an immortal with "powerful" blood magic.

EchoirVarsoj

Maybe they should buff non-vampire skills damage a bit too if you're equipping the Scion ultimate

RedReign

Remove the Ability cost Weakness

joseayalac wrote: »

Instead of doing this [Snip] poll, get into the PTS, try it out and give feedback.

Feedback is what developers take more into account. Why would the oppinion of people who haven't tried the Vamp revamp be constructive?

Better to invite people to try things out and give actual constructive feedback.
[Edited for baiting]

Most of already have.

nadrokal

Reduce the Ability Cost Weakness.

I voted that it should be reduced a bit, as it just doesn't seem very build friendly. Also, I can't help but wonder if it might be better if the increased skill cost was shifted to apply only when the damage toggle skill is active, as opposed to all the time. Because it seems like such a harsh penalty, that if what's on the pts is the final incarnation, I'll be curing all of my vamps except that I'll keep to offer bites to friends and guildies who want to try it.