(PVP) Stam / Mag balancing

wheem_ESO

West93 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Stam vs Magicka would be equalized by changes to light/heavy attacks, but it didn't get into Update. Hopefully next update zos will come to conclusion how implement it without unexpected consequences (like what heavy attacks were doing on pre-pts).

I've wondered about that myself, but I'm not entirely sure if it's true. While it would probably help, I think a big part of the problem is how absurdly powerful Stamina spammables are, combined with their superior mechanics for defense, self-healing, and mobility.

When it comes to Battlegrounds, bad players on Stamina builds can be dangerous, so long as they can at least figure out how to equip high damage sets and press their Dizzying Swing (or worse yet, Biting Jabs) key. That same person on a Magicka build, trying to do damage by simply spamming something like Force Pulse/Crushing Shock, can basically be ignored. And before anybody tries to step in and "enlighten" me by pointing out that you can dodge roll Dizzying Swing and kill a bad player pretty easily, note that I specifically mentioned Battlegrounds and not duels.

One example that happened a little bit ago vs a Stamina Templar (though the one in question isn't a bad player):
x4 Biting Jabs for 7,800 damage.
x3 Biting Jabs for 5,354 damage (hey look, he missed a tick and it still did more damage than Mag spammables!)
x1 Power of the Light for 5,305 damage.
Considering that the PotL was applied at range while I was attempting to escape his team that was chasing me, that's basically 2 in-combat global cooldowns for 18,459 damage not counting Burning Light procs and with no ultimate being used. That's absolutely ludicrous, and not really something that Magicka builds are capable of. The only possible exception is Mag DK, and that's generally only with an ultimate + whip, and even then they're only capable of that sort of damage because they get a gigantic +20% damage bonus due to my Vampirism (was hoping the upcoming overhaul wouldn't be garbage).

And those aren't really abnormal Biting Jabs (or Dizzying Swing) numbers, either. Having RandomStamBro#529267 attacking me basically feels like fighting a Mag Sorc that has a perma-proc for Crystal Frags, and is firing them off on every GCD that isn't used to apply Curse. Even then, the Mag Sorc at least has to use another ability/GCD if they want to CC me, rather than holding a "medium" attack for a split second and dropping an instant cast ultimate (with big bonus damage thanks to Vampirism) during the laggy break free.

I have a screenshot from the BG right before the aforementioned Biting Jabs damage, showing a completely different Stamina Templar hitting me for:
x4 Biting Jabs for 6,848 damage.
x1 Power of the Light for 3,753 damage.
x4 Empowering Sweep for 5,490 damage (the DOT portion, obviously).
x4 Biting Jabs for 4,980 damage.
x1 Executioner for 5,707 damage.
If we just look at the damage from the 2 GCDs spent on the spammable, that's 11,828 damage not counting the inevitable Burning Lot procs. Had that been a Magicka build with Force Pulse, I'd expect roughly half that amount of damage. Due largely to itemization, even Puncturing Sweeps doesn't normally compare to Biting Jabs in pure damage output, and it's one of two Magicka spammables that I would consider at least somewhat OP (the other being Whip).

Jabs are strong, but what else does stamplar has? He can't survive the way stamden, stamdk, stamcro or reset fights like stamnb or stamsorc. Stamplar has worst survivability of stamina classes, not to mention jabs lag out a lot in cyrodiil.

Stamplars is in balanced point right now and there is no need for nerfs, the only stamina class who is really over performing right now is stamcro imo.

Having deficiencies in some areas isn't a good argument for having absolutely ludicrous damage. There are magicka builds that have worse mobility, self healing, and general survivability than Stamina Templars do, yet they aren't getting the same kinds of ridiculous damage output.

Biting Jabs needs a substantial damage nerf. If the class needs some other things to be tweaked in compensation, then I'm totally fine with that. But the amount of damage that can be done by pressing a single button a few times in a row absolutely needs to change.

relentless_turnip

West93 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Stam vs Magicka would be equalized by changes to light/heavy attacks, but it didn't get into Update. Hopefully next update zos will come to conclusion how implement it without unexpected consequences (like what heavy attacks were doing on pre-pts).

I've wondered about that myself, but I'm not entirely sure if it's true. While it would probably help, I think a big part of the problem is how absurdly powerful Stamina spammables are, combined with their superior mechanics for defense, self-healing, and mobility.

When it comes to Battlegrounds, bad players on Stamina builds can be dangerous, so long as they can at least figure out how to equip high damage sets and press their Dizzying Swing (or worse yet, Biting Jabs) key. That same person on a Magicka build, trying to do damage by simply spamming something like Force Pulse/Crushing Shock, can basically be ignored. And before anybody tries to step in and "enlighten" me by pointing out that you can dodge roll Dizzying Swing and kill a bad player pretty easily, note that I specifically mentioned Battlegrounds and not duels.

One example that happened a little bit ago vs a Stamina Templar (though the one in question isn't a bad player):
x4 Biting Jabs for 7,800 damage.
x3 Biting Jabs for 5,354 damage (hey look, he missed a tick and it still did more damage than Mag spammables!)
x1 Power of the Light for 5,305 damage.
Considering that the PotL was applied at range while I was attempting to escape his team that was chasing me, that's basically 2 in-combat global cooldowns for 18,459 damage not counting Burning Light procs and with no ultimate being used. That's absolutely ludicrous, and not really something that Magicka builds are capable of. The only possible exception is Mag DK, and that's generally only with an ultimate + whip, and even then they're only capable of that sort of damage because they get a gigantic +20% damage bonus due to my Vampirism (was hoping the upcoming overhaul wouldn't be garbage).

And those aren't really abnormal Biting Jabs (or Dizzying Swing) numbers, either. Having RandomStamBro#529267 attacking me basically feels like fighting a Mag Sorc that has a perma-proc for Crystal Frags, and is firing them off on every GCD that isn't used to apply Curse. Even then, the Mag Sorc at least has to use another ability/GCD if they want to CC me, rather than holding a "medium" attack for a split second and dropping an instant cast ultimate (with big bonus damage thanks to Vampirism) during the laggy break free.

I have a screenshot from the BG right before the aforementioned Biting Jabs damage, showing a completely different Stamina Templar hitting me for:
x4 Biting Jabs for 6,848 damage.
x1 Power of the Light for 3,753 damage.
x4 Empowering Sweep for 5,490 damage (the DOT portion, obviously).
x4 Biting Jabs for 4,980 damage.
x1 Executioner for 5,707 damage.
If we just look at the damage from the 2 GCDs spent on the spammable, that's 11,828 damage not counting the inevitable Burning Lot procs. Had that been a Magicka build with Force Pulse, I'd expect roughly half that amount of damage. Due largely to itemization, even Puncturing Sweeps doesn't normally compare to Biting Jabs in pure damage output, and it's one of two Magicka spammables that I would consider at least somewhat OP (the other being Whip).

Jabs are strong, but what else does stamplar has? He can't survive the way stamden, stamdk, stamcro or reset fights like stamnb or stamsorc. Stamplar has worst survivability of stamina classes, not to mention jabs lag out a lot in cyrodiil.

Stamplars is in balanced point right now and there is no need for nerfs, the only stamina class who is really over performing right now is stamcro imo.

Are you referring to the class that can reset the fight with one button?
I would say stamplar has nearly the best survivability of any stamina class, though that does depend how you build it.
Yes Stamplars are incredibly strong... They don't need a nerf though... but arguing they're weaknesses is madness.

Dracane

relentless_turnip wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Stam vs Magicka would be equalized by changes to light/heavy attacks, but it didn't get into Update. Hopefully next update zos will come to conclusion how implement it without unexpected consequences (like what heavy attacks were doing on pre-pts).

I've wondered about that myself, but I'm not entirely sure if it's true. While it would probably help, I think a big part of the problem is how absurdly powerful Stamina spammables are, combined with their superior mechanics for defense, self-healing, and mobility.

When it comes to Battlegrounds, bad players on Stamina builds can be dangerous, so long as they can at least figure out how to equip high damage sets and press their Dizzying Swing (or worse yet, Biting Jabs) key. That same person on a Magicka build, trying to do damage by simply spamming something like Force Pulse/Crushing Shock, can basically be ignored. And before anybody tries to step in and "enlighten" me by pointing out that you can dodge roll Dizzying Swing and kill a bad player pretty easily, note that I specifically mentioned Battlegrounds and not duels.

One example that happened a little bit ago vs a Stamina Templar (though the one in question isn't a bad player):
x4 Biting Jabs for 7,800 damage.
x3 Biting Jabs for 5,354 damage (hey look, he missed a tick and it still did more damage than Mag spammables!)
x1 Power of the Light for 5,305 damage.
Considering that the PotL was applied at range while I was attempting to escape his team that was chasing me, that's basically 2 in-combat global cooldowns for 18,459 damage not counting Burning Light procs and with no ultimate being used. That's absolutely ludicrous, and not really something that Magicka builds are capable of. The only possible exception is Mag DK, and that's generally only with an ultimate + whip, and even then they're only capable of that sort of damage because they get a gigantic +20% damage bonus due to my Vampirism (was hoping the upcoming overhaul wouldn't be garbage).

And those aren't really abnormal Biting Jabs (or Dizzying Swing) numbers, either. Having RandomStamBro#529267 attacking me basically feels like fighting a Mag Sorc that has a perma-proc for Crystal Frags, and is firing them off on every GCD that isn't used to apply Curse. Even then, the Mag Sorc at least has to use another ability/GCD if they want to CC me, rather than holding a "medium" attack for a split second and dropping an instant cast ultimate (with big bonus damage thanks to Vampirism) during the laggy break free.

I have a screenshot from the BG right before the aforementioned Biting Jabs damage, showing a completely different Stamina Templar hitting me for:
x4 Biting Jabs for 6,848 damage.
x1 Power of the Light for 3,753 damage.
x4 Empowering Sweep for 5,490 damage (the DOT portion, obviously).
x4 Biting Jabs for 4,980 damage.
x1 Executioner for 5,707 damage.
If we just look at the damage from the 2 GCDs spent on the spammable, that's 11,828 damage not counting the inevitable Burning Lot procs. Had that been a Magicka build with Force Pulse, I'd expect roughly half that amount of damage. Due largely to itemization, even Puncturing Sweeps doesn't normally compare to Biting Jabs in pure damage output, and it's one of two Magicka spammables that I would consider at least somewhat OP (the other being Whip).

Jabs are strong, but what else does stamplar has? He can't survive the way stamden, stamdk, stamcro or reset fights like stamnb or stamsorc. Stamplar has worst survivability of stamina classes, not to mention jabs lag out a lot in cyrodiil.

Stamplars is in balanced point right now and there is no need for nerfs, the only stamina class who is really over performing right now is stamcro imo.

Are you referring to the class that can reset the fight with one button?
I would say stamplar has nearly the best survivability of any stamina class, though that does depend how you build it.
Yes Stamplars are incredibly strong... They don't need a nerf though... but arguing they're weaknesses is madness.

I wish to remind you that Stamina Templar is the class capable of producing 80k dps just by pressing jabs over and over.
In my opinion, there are 4 things in need of nerfs. Templar Jabs, Warden Netch being a free cast, Necromancer Blastbone and Sorcerer Ball of Lightning.

relentless_turnip

Dracane wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Stam vs Magicka would be equalized by changes to light/heavy attacks, but it didn't get into Update. Hopefully next update zos will come to conclusion how implement it without unexpected consequences (like what heavy attacks were doing on pre-pts).

I've wondered about that myself, but I'm not entirely sure if it's true. While it would probably help, I think a big part of the problem is how absurdly powerful Stamina spammables are, combined with their superior mechanics for defense, self-healing, and mobility.

When it comes to Battlegrounds, bad players on Stamina builds can be dangerous, so long as they can at least figure out how to equip high damage sets and press their Dizzying Swing (or worse yet, Biting Jabs) key. That same person on a Magicka build, trying to do damage by simply spamming something like Force Pulse/Crushing Shock, can basically be ignored. And before anybody tries to step in and "enlighten" me by pointing out that you can dodge roll Dizzying Swing and kill a bad player pretty easily, note that I specifically mentioned Battlegrounds and not duels.

One example that happened a little bit ago vs a Stamina Templar (though the one in question isn't a bad player):
x4 Biting Jabs for 7,800 damage.
x3 Biting Jabs for 5,354 damage (hey look, he missed a tick and it still did more damage than Mag spammables!)
x1 Power of the Light for 5,305 damage.
Considering that the PotL was applied at range while I was attempting to escape his team that was chasing me, that's basically 2 in-combat global cooldowns for 18,459 damage not counting Burning Light procs and with no ultimate being used. That's absolutely ludicrous, and not really something that Magicka builds are capable of. The only possible exception is Mag DK, and that's generally only with an ultimate + whip, and even then they're only capable of that sort of damage because they get a gigantic +20% damage bonus due to my Vampirism (was hoping the upcoming overhaul wouldn't be garbage).

And those aren't really abnormal Biting Jabs (or Dizzying Swing) numbers, either. Having RandomStamBro#529267 attacking me basically feels like fighting a Mag Sorc that has a perma-proc for Crystal Frags, and is firing them off on every GCD that isn't used to apply Curse. Even then, the Mag Sorc at least has to use another ability/GCD if they want to CC me, rather than holding a "medium" attack for a split second and dropping an instant cast ultimate (with big bonus damage thanks to Vampirism) during the laggy break free.

I have a screenshot from the BG right before the aforementioned Biting Jabs damage, showing a completely different Stamina Templar hitting me for:
x4 Biting Jabs for 6,848 damage.
x1 Power of the Light for 3,753 damage.
x4 Empowering Sweep for 5,490 damage (the DOT portion, obviously).
x4 Biting Jabs for 4,980 damage.
x1 Executioner for 5,707 damage.
If we just look at the damage from the 2 GCDs spent on the spammable, that's 11,828 damage not counting the inevitable Burning Lot procs. Had that been a Magicka build with Force Pulse, I'd expect roughly half that amount of damage. Due largely to itemization, even Puncturing Sweeps doesn't normally compare to Biting Jabs in pure damage output, and it's one of two Magicka spammables that I would consider at least somewhat OP (the other being Whip).

Jabs are strong, but what else does stamplar has? He can't survive the way stamden, stamdk, stamcro or reset fights like stamnb or stamsorc. Stamplar has worst survivability of stamina classes, not to mention jabs lag out a lot in cyrodiil.

Stamplars is in balanced point right now and there is no need for nerfs, the only stamina class who is really over performing right now is stamcro imo.

Are you referring to the class that can reset the fight with one button?
I would say stamplar has nearly the best survivability of any stamina class, though that does depend how you build it.
Yes Stamplars are incredibly strong... They don't need a nerf though... but arguing they're weaknesses is madness.

I wish to remind you that Stamina Templar is the class capable of producing 80k dps just by pressing jabs over and over.
In my opinion, there are 4 things in need of nerfs. Templar Jabs, Warden Netch being a free cast, Necromancer Blastbone and Sorcerer Ball of Lightning.

I would rather they nerfed nothing and just left people to accept it. I find the constant change more off putting than the odd annoying skill.

Dracane

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Stam vs Magicka would be equalized by changes to light/heavy attacks, but it didn't get into Update. Hopefully next update zos will come to conclusion how implement it without unexpected consequences (like what heavy attacks were doing on pre-pts).

I've wondered about that myself, but I'm not entirely sure if it's true. While it would probably help, I think a big part of the problem is how absurdly powerful Stamina spammables are, combined with their superior mechanics for defense, self-healing, and mobility.

When it comes to Battlegrounds, bad players on Stamina builds can be dangerous, so long as they can at least figure out how to equip high damage sets and press their Dizzying Swing (or worse yet, Biting Jabs) key. That same person on a Magicka build, trying to do damage by simply spamming something like Force Pulse/Crushing Shock, can basically be ignored. And before anybody tries to step in and "enlighten" me by pointing out that you can dodge roll Dizzying Swing and kill a bad player pretty easily, note that I specifically mentioned Battlegrounds and not duels.

One example that happened a little bit ago vs a Stamina Templar (though the one in question isn't a bad player):
x4 Biting Jabs for 7,800 damage.
x3 Biting Jabs for 5,354 damage (hey look, he missed a tick and it still did more damage than Mag spammables!)
x1 Power of the Light for 5,305 damage.
Considering that the PotL was applied at range while I was attempting to escape his team that was chasing me, that's basically 2 in-combat global cooldowns for 18,459 damage not counting Burning Light procs and with no ultimate being used. That's absolutely ludicrous, and not really something that Magicka builds are capable of. The only possible exception is Mag DK, and that's generally only with an ultimate + whip, and even then they're only capable of that sort of damage because they get a gigantic +20% damage bonus due to my Vampirism (was hoping the upcoming overhaul wouldn't be garbage).

And those aren't really abnormal Biting Jabs (or Dizzying Swing) numbers, either. Having RandomStamBro#529267 attacking me basically feels like fighting a Mag Sorc that has a perma-proc for Crystal Frags, and is firing them off on every GCD that isn't used to apply Curse. Even then, the Mag Sorc at least has to use another ability/GCD if they want to CC me, rather than holding a "medium" attack for a split second and dropping an instant cast ultimate (with big bonus damage thanks to Vampirism) during the laggy break free.

I have a screenshot from the BG right before the aforementioned Biting Jabs damage, showing a completely different Stamina Templar hitting me for:
x4 Biting Jabs for 6,848 damage.
x1 Power of the Light for 3,753 damage.
x4 Empowering Sweep for 5,490 damage (the DOT portion, obviously).
x4 Biting Jabs for 4,980 damage.
x1 Executioner for 5,707 damage.
If we just look at the damage from the 2 GCDs spent on the spammable, that's 11,828 damage not counting the inevitable Burning Lot procs. Had that been a Magicka build with Force Pulse, I'd expect roughly half that amount of damage. Due largely to itemization, even Puncturing Sweeps doesn't normally compare to Biting Jabs in pure damage output, and it's one of two Magicka spammables that I would consider at least somewhat OP (the other being Whip).

Jabs are strong, but what else does stamplar has? He can't survive the way stamden, stamdk, stamcro or reset fights like stamnb or stamsorc. Stamplar has worst survivability of stamina classes, not to mention jabs lag out a lot in cyrodiil.

Stamplars is in balanced point right now and there is no need for nerfs, the only stamina class who is really over performing right now is stamcro imo.

Are you referring to the class that can reset the fight with one button?
I would say stamplar has nearly the best survivability of any stamina class, though that does depend how you build it.
Yes Stamplars are incredibly strong... They don't need a nerf though... but arguing they're weaknesses is madness.

I wish to remind you that Stamina Templar is the class capable of producing 80k dps just by pressing jabs over and over.
In my opinion, there are 4 things in need of nerfs. Templar Jabs, Warden Netch being a free cast, Necromancer Blastbone and Sorcerer Ball of Lightning.

I would rather they nerfed nothing and just left people to accept it. I find the constant change more off putting than the odd annoying skill.

When playing a meta friendly class, it is easy to be content and wish for no changes.
A luxury not everyone has. Most people bow to the meta and play said classes, while their heart belongs to another, though.

wheem_ESO

Dracane wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

[
I would rather they nerfed nothing and just left people to accept it. I find the constant change more off putting than the odd annoying skill.

When playing a meta friendly class, it is easy to be content and wish for no changes.
A luxury not everyone has. Most people bow to the meta and play said classes, while their heart belongs to another, though.

Indeed. I have to wonder if he'd be singing the same tune if Magicka builds were 1-buttoning him into oblivion with Force Pulse, and he wasn't able to escape and evade with dodge spam, but instead had to sit and take it for the most part.