(PVP) Stam / Mag balancing

xAlucardx92

Yes the tank meta will probably gone, but now we will have stam burst down the most mag class and mag can do nothing against it meta. Stam over shin the most mag class, and for each Patch over the last year it's get worst. With Stuhn now and all the Dizzy spammers...... ! Give mag some love! So will we (Magicka) get this patch at least some buffs?

Sry for the bad english,
In Love a MDK

Dracane

Vogtard wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Or in other words, all ranged magicka spammables are very underpowered and inferior.
Force shock, elemental weapons, skulls, swallow soul and cliff racer. All suffer from the same weakness.
They could at least buff them by 10% each.

They already have a huge advantage of being ranged tho.
A smart solution would be to give them an extra dmg buff when cast at half range, e.g. as a light armor passive.

That would be great. I never understood why ranged abilities are being punished for being in melee range, which is nearly inevitable in pvp anyway. Travel times and inferior damage.

Giving them a damage buff in close range would only be fair.

kalunte

As long as mag will have better crosshealing (probably forever) they will be in a good spot beside 1v1 situation.

ps: Stuhn's also work for mag.

relentless_turnip

kalunte wrote: »

As long as mag will have better crosshealing (probably forever) they will be in a good spot beside 1v1 situation.

ps: Stuhn's also work for mag.

To be honest I have never understood this debate. I have just as much success on magicka as I do on stam.
Each class is different and if you have built it right it works in my opinion.

Valdek

I'm not sure. Although I used to feel that stam had it better because of their better access to dodge, which may become even more vital next patch, some mag classes can blast people down quickly too.

Deathlord92

I love both my stamblade and magblade a lot both are good out done by other classes but that’s not the point. Stamblade better for 1vx situations magblade better for 1v1.

Dracane

kalunte wrote: »

As long as mag will have better crosshealing (probably forever) they will be in a good spot beside 1v1 situation.

ps: Stuhn's also work for mag.

Just not as good. Magicka tends to have more base penetration thanks to light armor, but much less base damage.
Stamina has alot of damage but lower penetration and penetration works as an amplifier to that high damage.

Stamina, with their abundance of roll dodges in CP and dizzying swing have an easier time producing off balance at will. Only magicka Templar, as always and in any area, is the one that can make it work on the magicka side.

ThePedge

Stamina better for solo (besides magsorc), Magicka better for group.

How it's been for a year.

MincVinyl

Dracane wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

As long as mag will have better crosshealing (probably forever) they will be in a good spot beside 1v1 situation.

ps: Stuhn's also work for mag.

Just not as good. Magicka tends to have more base penetration thanks to light armor, but much less base damage.
Stamina has alot of damage but lower penetration and penetration works as an amplifier to that high damage.

Stamina, with their abundance of roll dodges in CP and dizzying swing have an easier time producing off balance at will. Only magicka Templar, as always and in any area, is the one that can make it work on the magicka side.

magdk my guy, otherwise magblade/magsorc will be getting a nice buff with the return of master's fire clench unless you find a source of offbalance

I'm a 5 year dizzy player, tbh there is no reason those offbalance changes should have happened considering how many other weapon skills needed to be updated with something. Dizzy and onslaught were perfectly fine before elsweyr, now they are the only weapon skill line to run and zos can't find a way to balance them like it was before with the double aim check and knockup. Likely we will see dizzy/offbalance dumbed down even further and the eventual return of dw and s&b builds.

---

mag and stam generally perform equal in 1v1s (usually comes down to skill or class/weapon balance.)

Usually it is easier to 1vX on stam for the fact that you can sprint more for LoS, mag falls short since the game as it stands heavily favors winning by numbers to suffocate the lower number team. Back in the day mag toons didnt have to LoS as much since they could purge and overtime effects did not stack meaning it was easier to stay in one spot against multiple enemies. Vampire fire damage was not so bad since you could not have 20 fire dots on you at the same time and with mag burst heals it was easier to manage the health regen loss.

In group play mag easily wins, go try high mmr bgs or ask any of the adastra guys and you will come to the same conclusion that mursie or fengrush complain about. Whatever team has the healer usually wins. If you get a game where your team is all stam vs an all mag team it is brutal since stam cant do anything for their ally during a dogpile. Where the mag team will all cast healing wards or spam their go to burst heal making that target impossible to burst through 20k hps between 4 heals.

Firstmep

MincVinyl wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

As long as mag will have better crosshealing (probably forever) they will be in a good spot beside 1v1 situation.

ps: Stuhn's also work for mag.

Just not as good. Magicka tends to have more base penetration thanks to light armor, but much less base damage.
Stamina has alot of damage but lower penetration and penetration works as an amplifier to that high damage.

Stamina, with their abundance of roll dodges in CP and dizzying swing have an easier time producing off balance at will. Only magicka Templar, as always and in any area, is the one that can make it work on the magicka side.

magdk my guy, otherwise magblade/magsorc will be getting a nice buff with the return of master's fire clench unless you find a source of offbalance

I'm a 5 year dizzy player, tbh there is no reason those offbalance changes should have happened considering how many other weapon skills needed to be updated with something. Dizzy and onslaught were perfectly fine before elsweyr, now they are the only weapon skill line to run and zos can't find a way to balance them like it was before with the double aim check and knockup. Likely we will see dizzy/offbalance dumbed down even further and the eventual return of dw and s&b builds.

---

mag and stam generally perform equal in 1v1s (usually comes down to skill or class/weapon balance.)

Usually it is easier to 1vX on stam for the fact that you can sprint more for LoS, mag falls short since the game as it stands heavily favors winning by numbers to suffocate the lower number team. Back in the day mag toons didnt have to LoS as much since they could purge and overtime effects did not stack meaning it was easier to stay in one spot against multiple enemies. Vampire fire damage was not so bad since you could not have 20 fire dots on you at the same time and with mag burst heals it was easier to manage the health regen loss.

In group play mag easily wins, go try high mmr bgs or ask any of the adastra guys and you will come to the same conclusion that mursie or fengrush complain about. Whatever team has the healer usually wins. If you get a game where your team is all stam vs an all mag team it is brutal since stam cant do anything for their ally during a dogpile. Where the mag team will all cast healing wards or spam their go to burst heal making that target impossible to burst through 20k hps between 4 heals.

I had a couple of high MMR games like that 4 mag all with brp resto, rotating resto ults, good luck killing that.
One of the reasons I like my stamplar so much in bgs, I can still provide cleansing synergy, remembrance and peel with javelin for my teammates.
But when I hop on my magden it's night and day, radiating regen, spores, resto ult or permafrost for pushing etc.
Just night and day.

Fawn4287

All you need to see is 4 sets of rapid regen ticking up to know that mag is the group play meta, stam performs well in 1-4vX but so does mag (wait until you see masters destro spam next update lol), a good metric of how hard a large group is to kill can usually be determined by the number of mag wardens and plars there are.

MincVinyl

Firstmep wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

As long as mag will have better crosshealing (probably forever) they will be in a good spot beside 1v1 situation.

ps: Stuhn's also work for mag.

Just not as good. Magicka tends to have more base penetration thanks to light armor, but much less base damage.
Stamina has alot of damage but lower penetration and penetration works as an amplifier to that high damage.

Stamina, with their abundance of roll dodges in CP and dizzying swing have an easier time producing off balance at will. Only magicka Templar, as always and in any area, is the one that can make it work on the magicka side.

magdk my guy, otherwise magblade/magsorc will be getting a nice buff with the return of master's fire clench unless you find a source of offbalance

I'm a 5 year dizzy player, tbh there is no reason those offbalance changes should have happened considering how many other weapon skills needed to be updated with something. Dizzy and onslaught were perfectly fine before elsweyr, now they are the only weapon skill line to run and zos can't find a way to balance them like it was before with the double aim check and knockup. Likely we will see dizzy/offbalance dumbed down even further and the eventual return of dw and s&b builds.

---

mag and stam generally perform equal in 1v1s (usually comes down to skill or class/weapon balance.)

Usually it is easier to 1vX on stam for the fact that you can sprint more for LoS, mag falls short since the game as it stands heavily favors winning by numbers to suffocate the lower number team. Back in the day mag toons didnt have to LoS as much since they could purge and overtime effects did not stack meaning it was easier to stay in one spot against multiple enemies. Vampire fire damage was not so bad since you could not have 20 fire dots on you at the same time and with mag burst heals it was easier to manage the health regen loss.

In group play mag easily wins, go try high mmr bgs or ask any of the adastra guys and you will come to the same conclusion that mursie or fengrush complain about. Whatever team has the healer usually wins. If you get a game where your team is all stam vs an all mag team it is brutal since stam cant do anything for their ally during a dogpile. Where the mag team will all cast healing wards or spam their go to burst heal making that target impossible to burst through 20k hps between 4 heals.

I had a couple of high MMR games like that 4 mag all with brp resto, rotating resto ults, good luck killing that.
One of the reasons I like my stamplar so much in bgs, I can still provide cleansing synergy, remembrance and peel with javelin for my teammates.
But when I hop on my magden it's night and day, radiating regen, spores, resto ult or permafrost for pushing etc.
Just night and day.

See I play stamsorc, so in matches like that the only thing you can do is use streak to possibly stun the enemies dog piling. I feel like they should revisit echoing vigor, no reason it should do a 3rd the hps....if anything make it 5 meter range but 3/4 the hps of resolving. Which takes us back to the healing issue present in the game, it isnt the tooltip of the heals, it is stacking hots and dots of multiple players that is the issue. Now that vigor is a self heal and does not stack, for some reason we are seeing mag groups win uncontested.

*(bonus meme unmorphed vigor has a 3% hps than echoing)

GRXRG

In Bgs and no-cp with the 1350 bonus to everyone crit resit where people see the tank meta gone?

Next patch will be way more tanky than now and people won't die.

People who did the math on stuhn is just a 10-15% better than new moon but only on high resistances target with 30k or more resistances.

if you have an average 20k 25k stuhn is just 5% more damage than new moon and not always available.

Now the current crit resist is 1806 running 7 pieces impen, 2064 if you have impen shield backbar

So just do the math of full impen (after the nerf) + 1350 and it's 2554 with 7 pieces impen.

So if the damage is really higher, 7 impen will be necessary to go and it will lead into more tanky people.

In CP of course you run less points into Resistant, but you cannot put them into damage, because the Red three is all defensive.

So I don't know where people see the tank meta gone, tank meta will be worse than ever next patch, and a proc 12k pen set with no 100% uptime won't do anything, maybe the first week of the patch, one week later will be garbaged out already or people will be extra tanky to survive it and welcome to tank meta.

Cinbri

Stam vs Magicka would be equalized by changes to light/heavy attacks, but it didn't get into Update. Hopefully next update zos will come to conclusion how implement it without unexpected consequences (like what heavy attacks were doing on pre-pts).

iCaliban

MincVinyl wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

As long as mag will have better crosshealing (probably forever) they will be in a good spot beside 1v1 situation.

ps: Stuhn's also work for mag.

Just not as good. Magicka tends to have more base penetration thanks to light armor, but much less base damage.
Stamina has alot of damage but lower penetration and penetration works as an amplifier to that high damage.

Stamina, with their abundance of roll dodges in CP and dizzying swing have an easier time producing off balance at will. Only magicka Templar, as always and in any area, is the one that can make it work on the magicka side.

magdk my guy, otherwise magblade/magsorc will be getting a nice buff with the return of master's fire clench unless you find a source of offbalance

I'm a 5 year dizzy player, tbh there is no reason those offbalance changes should have happened considering how many other weapon skills needed to be updated with something. Dizzy and onslaught were perfectly fine before elsweyr, now they are the only weapon skill line to run and zos can't find a way to balance them like it was before with the double aim check and knockup. Likely we will see dizzy/offbalance dumbed down even further and the eventual return of dw and s&b builds.

---

mag and stam generally perform equal in 1v1s (usually comes down to skill or class/weapon balance.)

Usually it is easier to 1vX on stam for the fact that you can sprint more for LoS, mag falls short since the game as it stands heavily favors winning by numbers to suffocate the lower number team. Back in the day mag toons didnt have to LoS as much since they could purge and overtime effects did not stack meaning it was easier to stay in one spot against multiple enemies. Vampire fire damage was not so bad since you could not have 20 fire dots on you at the same time and with mag burst heals it was easier to manage the health regen loss.

In group play mag easily wins, go try high mmr bgs or ask any of the adastra guys and you will come to the same conclusion that mursie or fengrush complain about. Whatever team has the healer usually wins. If you get a game where your team is all stam vs an all mag team it is brutal since stam cant do anything for their ally during a dogpile. Where the mag team will all cast healing wards or spam their go to burst heal making that target impossible to burst through 20k hps between 4 heals.

A dedicated healer is dominant yes.

Problems with bg balancing since the queue changes is how many good players have quit or not regained their mmr. So most games are 2 good players racing to see who can farm the bad ones. Which mag sorc is absolutely unquestioned king of

This changes radically once competition ramps up. 3 or 4 good stamina players rolling together are much much much stronger than any comparable mag group unless they have a dedicated healer.

Tldr: bg changes have emphasized solo play due to horrific teammate variance.

wheem_ESO

Cinbri wrote: »

Stam vs Magicka would be equalized by changes to light/heavy attacks, but it didn't get into Update. Hopefully next update zos will come to conclusion how implement it without unexpected consequences (like what heavy attacks were doing on pre-pts).

I've wondered about that myself, but I'm not entirely sure if it's true. While it would probably help, I think a big part of the problem is how absurdly powerful Stamina spammables are, combined with their superior mechanics for defense, self-healing, and mobility.

When it comes to Battlegrounds, bad players on Stamina builds can be dangerous, so long as they can at least figure out how to equip high damage sets and press their Dizzying Swing (or worse yet, Biting Jabs) key. That same person on a Magicka build, trying to do damage by simply spamming something like Force Pulse/Crushing Shock, can basically be ignored. And before anybody tries to step in and "enlighten" me by pointing out that you can dodge roll Dizzying Swing and kill a bad player pretty easily, note that I specifically mentioned Battlegrounds and not duels.

One example that happened a little bit ago vs a Stamina Templar (though the one in question isn't a bad player):
x4 Biting Jabs for 7,800 damage.
x3 Biting Jabs for 5,354 damage (hey look, he missed a tick and it still did more damage than Mag spammables!)
x1 Power of the Light for 5,305 damage.
Considering that the PotL was applied at range while I was attempting to escape his team that was chasing me, that's basically 2 in-combat global cooldowns for 18,459 damage not counting Burning Light procs and with no ultimate being used. That's absolutely ludicrous, and not really something that Magicka builds are capable of. The only possible exception is Mag DK, and that's generally only with an ultimate + whip, and even then they're only capable of that sort of damage because they get a gigantic +20% damage bonus due to my Vampirism (was hoping the upcoming overhaul wouldn't be garbage).

And those aren't really abnormal Biting Jabs (or Dizzying Swing) numbers, either. Having RandomStamBro#529267 attacking me basically feels like fighting a Mag Sorc that has a perma-proc for Crystal Frags, and is firing them off on every GCD that isn't used to apply Curse. Even then, the Mag Sorc at least has to use another ability/GCD if they want to CC me, rather than holding a "medium" attack for a split second and dropping an instant cast ultimate (with big bonus damage thanks to Vampirism) during the laggy break free.

I have a screenshot from the BG right before the aforementioned Biting Jabs damage, showing a completely different Stamina Templar hitting me for:
x4 Biting Jabs for 6,848 damage.
x1 Power of the Light for 3,753 damage.
x4 Empowering Sweep for 5,490 damage (the DOT portion, obviously).
x4 Biting Jabs for 4,980 damage.
x1 Executioner for 5,707 damage.
If we just look at the damage from the 2 GCDs spent on the spammable, that's 11,828 damage not counting the inevitable Burning Lot procs. Had that been a Magicka build with Force Pulse, I'd expect roughly half that amount of damage. Due largely to itemization, even Puncturing Sweeps doesn't normally compare to Biting Jabs in pure damage output, and it's one of two Magicka spammables that I would consider at least somewhat OP (the other being Whip).

Dracane

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Stam vs Magicka would be equalized by changes to light/heavy attacks, but it didn't get into Update. Hopefully next update zos will come to conclusion how implement it without unexpected consequences (like what heavy attacks were doing on pre-pts).

I've wondered about that myself, but I'm not entirely sure if it's true. While it would probably help, I think a big part of the problem is how absurdly powerful Stamina spammables are, combined with their superior mechanics for defense, self-healing, and mobility.

When it comes to Battlegrounds, bad players on Stamina builds can be dangerous, so long as they can at least figure out how to equip high damage sets and press their Dizzying Swing (or worse yet, Biting Jabs) key. That same person on a Magicka build, trying to do damage by simply spamming something like Force Pulse/Crushing Shock, can basically be ignored. And before anybody tries to step in and "enlighten" me by pointing out that you can dodge roll Dizzying Swing and kill a bad player pretty easily, note that I specifically mentioned Battlegrounds and not duels.

One example that happened a little bit ago vs a Stamina Templar (though the one in question isn't a bad player):
x4 Biting Jabs for 7,800 damage.
x3 Biting Jabs for 5,354 damage (hey look, he missed a tick and it still did more damage than Mag spammables!)
x1 Power of the Light for 5,305 damage.
Considering that the PotL was applied at range while I was attempting to escape his team that was chasing me, that's basically 2 in-combat global cooldowns for 18,459 damage not counting Burning Light procs and with no ultimate being used. That's absolutely ludicrous, and not really something that Magicka builds are capable of. The only possible exception is Mag DK, and that's generally only with an ultimate + whip, and even then they're only capable of that sort of damage because they get a gigantic +20% damage bonus due to my Vampirism (was hoping the upcoming overhaul wouldn't be garbage).

And those aren't really abnormal Biting Jabs (or Dizzying Swing) numbers, either. Having RandomStamBro#529267 attacking me basically feels like fighting a Mag Sorc that has a perma-proc for Crystal Frags, and is firing them off on every GCD that isn't used to apply Curse. Even then, the Mag Sorc at least has to use another ability/GCD if they want to CC me, rather than holding a "medium" attack for a split second and dropping an instant cast ultimate (with big bonus damage thanks to Vampirism) during the laggy break free.

I have a screenshot from the BG right before the aforementioned Biting Jabs damage, showing a completely different Stamina Templar hitting me for:
x4 Biting Jabs for 6,848 damage.
x1 Power of the Light for 3,753 damage.
x4 Empowering Sweep for 5,490 damage (the DOT portion, obviously).
x4 Biting Jabs for 4,980 damage.
x1 Executioner for 5,707 damage.
If we just look at the damage from the 2 GCDs spent on the spammable, that's 11,828 damage not counting the inevitable Burning Lot procs. Had that been a Magicka build with Force Pulse, I'd expect roughly half that amount of damage. Due largely to itemization, even Puncturing Sweeps doesn't normally compare to Biting Jabs in pure damage output, and it's one of two Magicka spammables that I would consider at least somewhat OP (the other being Whip).

Or in other words, all ranged magicka spammables are very underpowered and inferior.
Force shock, elemental weapons, skulls, swallow soul and cliff racer. All suffer from the same weakness.
They could at least buff them by 10% each.

Vogtard

Dracane wrote: »

Or in other words, all ranged magicka spammables are very underpowered and inferior.
Force shock, elemental weapons, skulls, swallow soul and cliff racer. All suffer from the same weakness.
They could at least buff them by 10% each.

They already have a huge advantage of being ranged tho.
A smart solution would be to give them an extra dmg buff when cast at half range, e.g. as a light armor passive.

wheem_ESO

Vogtard wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Or in other words, all ranged magicka spammables are very underpowered and inferior.
Force shock, elemental weapons, skulls, swallow soul and cliff racer. All suffer from the same weakness.
They could at least buff them by 10% each.

They already have a huge advantage of being ranged tho.
A smart solution would be to give them an extra dmg buff when cast at half range, e.g. as a light armor passive.

Range might be a big advantage when it comes to zerging, but in many small scale fights it simply doesn't matter at all. Certain BG team compositions can indeed be harder for melee at times, but I don't think that justifies the huge power gap that currently exists.

I'm of the opinion that it simply shouldn't be possible for one player to kill another player (who is in reasonable PvP gear) in just a couple GCDs worth of spammable abilities. Shouldn't we all strive for skill-based PvP, where individual playing ability and decision making matters? Not simply, I buffed myself up before combat, then stunned you and pressed the same button twice in a row, therefore I win.

Valdek

I am killed by sorcs with their great ranged burst and execute more than I am by most melee stamina builds, to be fair.

I do agree that some melee combo bursts are too high and difficult to counter, though. I think that the deadly strike set interaction with jabs should be altered, as I am fairly sure that it was not designed to buff an already powerful spammable so much.

I strongly recommend making sure that you have enough stam to break free from a stun (hopefully fixed with failing due to lag soon), and using a snare, stun and immobilise. Those 3 effects can be very strong to mitigate damage from melee stams.

Aedaryl

Valdek wrote: »

I am killed by sorcs with their great ranged burst and execute more than I am by most melee stamina builds, to be fair.

I do agree that some melee combo bursts are too high and difficult to counter, though. I think that the deadly strike set interaction with jabs should be altered, as I am fairly sure that it was not designed to buff an already powerful spammable so much.

I strongly recommend making sure that you have enough stam to break free from a stun (hopefully fixed with failing due to lag soon), and using a snare, stun and immobilise. Those 3 effects can be very strong to mitigate damage from melee stams.

[Snip]

Sorc burst is the most predictable in the game, even more from range. And if you aren't able to react to the most predictable one, I don't even know how you can pretend react to melee one.

[Edited for bashing]

Dracane

Aedaryl wrote: »

Valdek wrote: »

I am killed by sorcs with their great ranged burst and execute more than I am by most melee stamina builds, to be fair.

I do agree that some melee combo bursts are too high and difficult to counter, though. I think that the deadly strike set interaction with jabs should be altered, as I am fairly sure that it was not designed to buff an already powerful spammable so much.

I strongly recommend making sure that you have enough stam to break free from a stun (hopefully fixed with failing due to lag soon), and using a snare, stun and immobilise. Those 3 effects can be very strong to mitigate damage from melee stams.

[Snip]

Sorc burst is the most predictable in the game, even more from range. And if you aren't able to react to the most predictable one, I don't even know how you can pretend react to melee one.

[Edited for bashing]

Most of the time no reaction is required anyway. Nearly everyone has enough tankiness to shrug it off.

Valdek

In a one on one, perhaps. But usually I find it's when they catch you while you're fighting someone else.

Dracane

Valdek wrote: »

In a one on one, perhaps. But usually I find it's when they catch you while you're fighting someone else.

Isn't everything that catches you off guard more dangerous than it would normally be? I doubt this is exclusive to sorcerer. I would scream more if a ganknightblade jumped on me than some force shock spamming fiend.

Mayrael

Valdek wrote: »

In a one on one, perhaps. But usually I find it's when they catch you while you're fighting someone else.

Yup and 10k Snipes from 40m aren't an issue in such situation?

Valdek

Mayrael wrote: »

Valdek wrote: »

In a one on one, perhaps. But usually I find it's when they catch you while you're fighting someone else.

Yup and 10k Snipes from 40m aren't an issue in such situation?

Of course they are xD

Sarousse

xAlucardx92 wrote: »

Yes the tank meta will probably gone

No it's not. It's gonna be worse. It's still insanely easy to stack damage reduction, and thanks to ZoS move now everyone can run 4k+ crit resist on CP campaigns.

SHOW

Vogtard wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Or in other words, all ranged magicka spammables are very underpowered and inferior.
Force shock, elemental weapons, skulls, swallow soul and cliff racer. All suffer from the same weakness.
They could at least buff them by 10% each.

They already have a huge advantage of being ranged tho.
A smart solution would be to give them an extra dmg buff when cast at half range, e.g. as a light armor passive.

Stamina's Snipe is Ranged, but with 1 press of a button it can hit just as hard as my magblades merciless (which is exhausting work to proc... then miss

Further to that point, with gap closers, chains, leaps, streaks, los, expeditions... "normal" ability range is somewhat irrelevant.

So, not sure that "range" is a valid justification for why these abilities are underpowered.

Don't know anymore, I think it's just ESO's value on cast time abilities (snipe, dswing) exacerbated by Stamina's extreme weapon damage scaling?


P.S. - I really like ur idea of increases damage based on how close u get, for a light armor passive. Pretty creative.

wheem_ESO

Dracane wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Valdek wrote: »

I am killed by sorcs with their great ranged burst and execute more than I am by most melee stamina builds, to be fair.

I do agree that some melee combo bursts are too high and difficult to counter, though. I think that the deadly strike set interaction with jabs should be altered, as I am fairly sure that it was not designed to buff an already powerful spammable so much.

I strongly recommend making sure that you have enough stam to break free from a stun (hopefully fixed with failing due to lag soon), and using a snare, stun and immobilise. Those 3 effects can be very strong to mitigate damage from melee stams.

[Snip]

Sorc burst is the most predictable in the game, even more from range. And if you aren't able to react to the most predictable one, I don't even know how you can pretend react to melee one.

[Edited for bashing]

Most of the time no reaction is required anyway. Nearly everyone has enough tankiness to shrug it off.

Not in no-CP. Magicka Sorcerer has extremely good burst for Battlegrounds, and are generally the #1 Magicka class by a decent margin (though I think Mag DK is arguably as good or better, at least for certain team makeups). Still, when it comes to the games that are made up mostly/entirely of solid players, I don't think Magicka Sorcerer is as good as a generic Stamina setup for anything besides killstealing.

Another example from BGs tonight, all from the same Stamina Templar:
Heavy attack for 3,749 damage.
Binding Javelin for 3,072 damage.
Biting Jabs for 6,721 damage.
Light attack for 2,351 damage.
Burning Light for 2,536 damage.

That's a total of 18,429 damage from two global cooldowns, one of which was a CC ability (which hits harder than most Magicka spammables and can proc Burning Light), and neither of which was an ultimate. Heavy Attack + CC, then Biting Jabs and a light attack weave for 18,429 of my 22k health. That's beyond ridiculous, and not something that Magicka builds are realistically capable of. Oh and this is with me wearing a pre-nerf Bloodspawn (though I'm not sure if it was active at the time I got obliterated during a breakfree animation).

I think my own class' ability to do silly damage with the Graverobber self-synergy needs to be addressed, but I can't say it's really any dumber than what Stamina builds are able to do by being one button heroes just mashing their spammable over and over while sitting on a Dawnbreaker. Speaking of which, I also saw one of those earlier for 6,276 on the burst + 12,079 over 3 DOT ticks. And that's not a particularly high amount of damage on the burst hit, either. Even eating a full duration Northern Storm from a Magicka Warden, or an unblocked Meteor, won't reach 18k in one button press...even though both of those Magicka ultimates are more expensive and much easier to counter.

paganslyer

i think The ability to survive as a light Armor user is Pretty bad in some aspect...
especially after the nerf to shields few patchs ago.
i think the 363 Spell Resistance for each piece of Light Armor equipped from Spell Warding passive
is actually useless....
medium and heavy got better passive for Survivability like reduce roll doge cost passive as medium and healing receive as heavy.
its Makes sense that light armor have lower resistance then heavy and medium...
but i think as wizard light armor user, you should get some unique power of Survivability
and Spell Warding passive is way too weak.
so I suggest to rework this passive to something like :
when you use shield or healing ability yours damage taken is reduce by something like 5% for 4-5 sec
or when you use shield or healing ability yours healing receive Increases by 5% for ** sec...
this way this passive will be much more effective And more logical.

West93

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Stam vs Magicka would be equalized by changes to light/heavy attacks, but it didn't get into Update. Hopefully next update zos will come to conclusion how implement it without unexpected consequences (like what heavy attacks were doing on pre-pts).

I've wondered about that myself, but I'm not entirely sure if it's true. While it would probably help, I think a big part of the problem is how absurdly powerful Stamina spammables are, combined with their superior mechanics for defense, self-healing, and mobility.

When it comes to Battlegrounds, bad players on Stamina builds can be dangerous, so long as they can at least figure out how to equip high damage sets and press their Dizzying Swing (or worse yet, Biting Jabs) key. That same person on a Magicka build, trying to do damage by simply spamming something like Force Pulse/Crushing Shock, can basically be ignored. And before anybody tries to step in and "enlighten" me by pointing out that you can dodge roll Dizzying Swing and kill a bad player pretty easily, note that I specifically mentioned Battlegrounds and not duels.

One example that happened a little bit ago vs a Stamina Templar (though the one in question isn't a bad player):
x4 Biting Jabs for 7,800 damage.
x3 Biting Jabs for 5,354 damage (hey look, he missed a tick and it still did more damage than Mag spammables!)
x1 Power of the Light for 5,305 damage.
Considering that the PotL was applied at range while I was attempting to escape his team that was chasing me, that's basically 2 in-combat global cooldowns for 18,459 damage not counting Burning Light procs and with no ultimate being used. That's absolutely ludicrous, and not really something that Magicka builds are capable of. The only possible exception is Mag DK, and that's generally only with an ultimate + whip, and even then they're only capable of that sort of damage because they get a gigantic +20% damage bonus due to my Vampirism (was hoping the upcoming overhaul wouldn't be garbage).

And those aren't really abnormal Biting Jabs (or Dizzying Swing) numbers, either. Having RandomStamBro#529267 attacking me basically feels like fighting a Mag Sorc that has a perma-proc for Crystal Frags, and is firing them off on every GCD that isn't used to apply Curse. Even then, the Mag Sorc at least has to use another ability/GCD if they want to CC me, rather than holding a "medium" attack for a split second and dropping an instant cast ultimate (with big bonus damage thanks to Vampirism) during the laggy break free.

I have a screenshot from the BG right before the aforementioned Biting Jabs damage, showing a completely different Stamina Templar hitting me for:
x4 Biting Jabs for 6,848 damage.
x1 Power of the Light for 3,753 damage.
x4 Empowering Sweep for 5,490 damage (the DOT portion, obviously).
x4 Biting Jabs for 4,980 damage.
x1 Executioner for 5,707 damage.
If we just look at the damage from the 2 GCDs spent on the spammable, that's 11,828 damage not counting the inevitable Burning Lot procs. Had that been a Magicka build with Force Pulse, I'd expect roughly half that amount of damage. Due largely to itemization, even Puncturing Sweeps doesn't normally compare to Biting Jabs in pure damage output, and it's one of two Magicka spammables that I would consider at least somewhat OP (the other being Whip).

Jabs are strong, but what else does stamplar has? He can't survive the way stamden, stamdk, stamcro or reset fights like stamnb or stamsorc. Stamplar has worst survivability of stamina classes, not to mention jabs lag out a lot in cyrodiil.

Stamplars is in balanced point right now and there is no need for nerfs, the only stamina class who is really over performing right now is stamcro imo.