Returning Player's Rant

MartiniDaniels

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

eKsDee wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraXZtHn6NE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9zXF4zFZCU

Yes, people who have played vMA over and over and over again to the point where they have complete mastery of the mechanics can perform extraordinary challenges. These people did not just wake up and were suddenly able to do this stuff. They practiced parsing, they practiced the arena. They may also possess extraordinary inherent talent.

No one who struggles with vMA is going to make a video showing their crappy runs. I know there are videos out there showing amazing things in vMA (and vDSA and vBRP) that make it look easy. As I already said, there is a large unseen population of players who struggle with arenas. I infer from your posting of these videos as a counterpoint that you are saying that the power creep is a real thing and that vMA has gotten easier. My response to that is that if power creep exists, it is difficult to measure because the top players in this game continue to push themselves to get better and be more perfect at execution, and it's impossible to separate and measure that factor from any independent game design factor that makes it easier to achieve content without having access to all of the data needed, which we never will. Only ZOS has the ability to do that. Are those videos evidence of power creep, or of players who invested considerable time in learning the content well enough to clear at that level? It could be either, or it could be a mix of the two. But it proves nothing.

Actually, vMA was always ez... It was the rng that made ot a difficult experience. I honestly woke up one day and wanted to try Cruel Flurry.
StamDK DW/Bow VO/Hundings and StormFist. I didnt even had the vMA bow for half my attempts.

As for your denial of power creep....

When I joined this game top players were parsing around 60k "self-buffed" on 6M dummy.
Now everybody for unknown reason compares old self-buffed parses to iron atro parses and cries about power creep. I wanna see no-cheese 70k self-buffed parse on 6M, does anybody have one? I seriously doubt it.

Chevaliemew

furiouslog wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Actually, vMA was always ez... It was the rng that made ot a difficult experience. I honestly woke up one day and wanted to try Cruel Flurry.
StamDK DW/Bow VO/Hundings and StormFist. I didnt even had the vMA bow for half my attempts.

As for your denial of power creep....

I'm not denying that power creep exists, I'm saying that it is not measurable relative to the increase in skill as players practice and get better at different aspects of the game without having all of the necessary data. You'd need to hold that factor constant to measure the power creep, and you'd need to do it across a population of players at varying levels of skill. Someone who gets super good at this game starts experiencing the game getting easier. What's the driver?

One way to objectively measure "power creep" is to run an algorithm that solves for maximum dps for the available sets and skill combinations over time, holding defense as a constant, with simulated and repeatable optimized combat conditions. That would tell you with clear numbers what the extent of the creep was.I don't think anyone has done that. If they have, please let me know. I'd love to see it. Any other claims are spurious and unproven.

Player's skill is at certain point getting constant. Especially when it comes to vMA. That also depends on the type of player we are talking about. Yet, lets take new player, that works his way to become competetive. All the tricks in the book, then memorizing the instances. Unless they change significantly, all that content will be pretty much same thing. At certain point you start making things automatically. Lets say 3 months? Game is so much more accesible in the begining. Your can learn quickly what is important, but then you will start dealing with diminishing returns so small it won't even make a difference.

Changes in DPS over the time are tremendous. Ability to reach 100k+ of single targer DPS was something unheard of 3 years ago. That didn't just jump from 40k to 100k in one patch. It occured over the years and it still progresses.

furiouslog

Chevaliemew wrote: »

Player's skill is at certain point getting constant. Especially when it comes to vMA. That also depends on the type of player we are talking about. Yet, lets take new player, that works his way to become competetive. All the tricks in the book, then memorizing the instances. Unless they change significantly, all that content will be pretty much same thing. At certain point you start making things automatically. Lets say 3 months? Game is so much more accesible in the begining. Your can learn quickly what is important, but then you will start dealing with diminishing returns so small it won't even make a difference.

Changes in DPS over the time are tremendous. Ability to reach 100k+ of single targer DPS was something unheard of 3 years ago. That didn't just jump from 40k to 100k in one patch. It occured over the years and it still progresses.

I hear that argument, but were people perfectly optimizing all available skills in optimized rotations with the available gear 3 years ago? I don't know the answer to that question. The fact that it's gradually gotten better over time would appear to point more to incremental increases in ability rather than changes in gear, particularly since gear has been consistently nerfed since Murkmire. New gear that provides higher dps relative to that time period provides that increase by making those sets dependent on party buffs and group synergies, which is simulated on a dummy, and artificially optimized for that context..

Looking at ESOLogs, the top player right now on vMA, over the last few updates, achieved the following dps (ranges provided across stages):

U22: 19-24K
U23: 18-24K
U24: 19-24K
U25: 18-26K

The current range of dps in for ranked players in vMA who cleared in the last two weeks is 9-19K dps. Is that drastically different than 3 years ago? I would think probably not.

However I'm open to either possibility. Taking the other view, that the increase is independent of improvement in player ability, what do you then see as the root cause of the power creep?

idk

furiouslog wrote: »

Chevaliemew wrote: »

Player's skill is at certain point getting constant. Especially when it comes to vMA. That also depends on the type of player we are talking about. Yet, lets take new player, that works his way to become competetive. All the tricks in the book, then memorizing the instances. Unless they change significantly, all that content will be pretty much same thing. At certain point you start making things automatically. Lets say 3 months? Game is so much more accesible in the begining. Your can learn quickly what is important, but then you will start dealing with diminishing returns so small it won't even make a difference.

Changes in DPS over the time are tremendous. Ability to reach 100k+ of single targer DPS was something unheard of 3 years ago. That didn't just jump from 40k to 100k in one patch. It occured over the years and it still progresses.

I hear that argument, but were people perfectly optimizing all available skills in optimized rotations with the available gear 3 years ago? I don't know the answer to that question. The fact that it's gradually gotten better over time would appear to point more to incremental increases in ability rather than changes in gear, particularly since gear has been consistently nerfed since Murkmire. New gear that provides higher dps relative to that time period provides that increase by making those sets dependent on party buffs and group synergies, which is simulated on a dummy, and artificially optimized for that context..

Looking at ESOLogs, the top player right now on vMA, over the last few updates, achieved the following dps (ranges provided across stages):

U22: 19-24K
U23: 18-24K
U24: 19-24K
U25: 18-26K

The current range of dps in for ranked players in vMA who cleared in the last two weeks is 9-19K dps. Is that drastically different than 3 years ago? I would think probably not.

However I'm open to either possibility. Taking the other view, that the increase is independent of improvement in player ability, what do you then see as the root cause of the power creep?

Top players. Those topping the leaderboard were optimizing 3 years ago. Top players always look to optimize and have had the means to see their DPS even before ESOLogs. Nevertheless, vMA is a poor place to look for power creep and especially for looking at a very broad group of players, assuming those numbers are limited to players that made the leaderboards.

As for what has been the significant culprit for power creep, that has been changes Zos has made to skills and sets added to the game. A case in point is the vMA dStaff. When it was released WoE was not worthy and players made that known. Zos buffed WoE which increased DPS.

I assume I do not have to spell out how new sets have added to the power creep over the years. That should be pretty obvious.

furiouslog

idk wrote: »

Top players. Those topping the leaderboard were optimizing 3 years ago. Top players always look to optimize and have had the means to see their DPS even before ESOLogs. Nevertheless, vMA is a poor place to look for power creep and especially for looking at a very broad group of players, assuming those numbers are limited to players that made the leaderboards.

As for what has been the significant culprit for power creep, that has been changes Zos has made to skills and sets added to the game. A case in point is the vMA dStaff. When it was released WoE was not worthy and players made that known. Zos buffed WoE which increased DPS.

I assume I do not have to spell out how new sets have added to the power creep over the years. That should be pretty obvious.

If you read back in the thread, you'll see that the crux of my point is that vMA has not gotten any easier because of power creep. More players have just gotten better at it. I agree that new sets put into the game have increased dps and other abilities, but they are designed specifically to be used in trials that would be a lot more difficult to clear without that gear. When that gear is used on a trial target dummy, you can hit high numbers. When it's used in an older vet dungeon, it's OP. When you go and do vSSHM, it's equal to the task.

I think ZOS knows that this is an issue, and it's why they keep messing with the gear stats and drops to make higher dps more accessible to lower skill players, and to reduce to peaks able to be produced by the top players, in order to make that difficult content able to be cleared by more people as long as they work together well and follow mechanics, while preventing top players from skipping mechanics. But attributing power creep to vMA getting easier is, IMO, wrong on two counts: it's not easier, and there is no meaningful power creep driving any increase in vMA clears or scores.

idk

furiouslog wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Top players. Those topping the leaderboard were optimizing 3 years ago. Top players always look to optimize and have had the means to see their DPS even before ESOLogs. Nevertheless, vMA is a poor place to look for power creep and especially for looking at a very broad group of players, assuming those numbers are limited to players that made the leaderboards.

As for what has been the significant culprit for power creep, that has been changes Zos has made to skills and sets added to the game. A case in point is the vMA dStaff. When it was released WoE was not worthy and players made that known. Zos buffed WoE which increased DPS.

I assume I do not have to spell out how new sets have added to the power creep over the years. That should be pretty obvious.

If you read back in the thread, you'll see that the crux of my point is that vMA has not gotten any easier because of power creep. More players have just gotten better at it. I agree that new sets put into the game have increased dps and other abilities, but they are designed specifically to be used in trials that would be a lot more difficult to clear without that gear. When that gear is used on a trial target dummy, you can hit high numbers. When it's used in an older vet dungeon, it's OP. When you go and do vSSHM, it's equal to the task.

I think ZOS knows that this is an issue, and it's why they keep messing with the gear stats and drops to make higher dps more accessible to lower skill players, and to reduce to peaks able to be produced by the top players, in order to make that difficult content able to be cleared by more people as long as they work together well and follow mechanics, while preventing top players from skipping mechanics. But attributing power creep to vMA getting easier is, IMO, wrong on two counts: it's not easier, and there is no meaningful power creep driving any increase in vMA clears or scores.

If power creep has not made vMA easier than what has? It is significantly easier today than 3 years ago.

Again, vMA is also much more than DPS and it is not a constant DPS and has many lulls. Both factor into why the DPS is much lower than other instances. Granted, part of that is the requirement of avoiding damage, dealing with mechanics and such but that power creep has helped lesser skilled players clear vMA just as it helps lesser skilled groups clear some of the trials, which you seem to note.

furiouslog

idk wrote: »

If power creep has not made vMA easier than what has? It is significantly easier today than 3 years ago.

Again, vMA is also much more than DPS and it is not a constant DPS and has many lulls. Both factor into why the DPS is much lower than other instances. Granted, part of that is the requirement of avoiding damage, dealing with mechanics and such but that power creep has helped lesser skilled players clear vMA just as it helps lesser skilled groups clear some of the trials, which you seem to note.

I don't have a benchmark for whether or not vMA is significantly easier, because I only actually cleared it in the past year. I theorize that if you find it easy, it's because you are highly experienced and are the kind of person who constantly engages in new challenges and self improvement, so your perception is driving it, because objective data do not appear to support that perception. Looking at some videos from 2017, dps benchmarks seen on videos for the highest scores were hitting around 28K, which is comparable to the current levels being hit by the top players. There is no other objective evidence that it's gotten easier. With respect, it's a handful of opinions from people who have been around for a really long time, and those opinions are potentially subject to a number of cognitive biases.

So, let's turn to power creep. On vSSHM ranks right now, the lowest group dps at peak periods (e.g. execute) for a successful clear is about 600K, so without factoring in the healers and tanks, we're looking at 66K dps per DD. That's the lowest average for a posted successful clear - below that they were wipes. That means that in order to clear, the combinations of player skill and the sets need to be able to produce that DPS at full tilt, on average. The range goes from 40ish to 90ish, so hitting dps within those ranges are therefore required to clear.

As I mentioned, trial dummy parsing is an artificial measure of power creep, because people who parse use unrealistic combinations of gear and skills to improve their benchmarks. Just above, @MartiniDaniels posted about hitting 60K on a 6M dummy self buffed. That's harder to do now than it was 3 years ago. That is a more appropriate comparison. Looking at trial dummy parses as evidence of power creep is a problematic measure. If people submitted parses using the gear, food, and skills they actually use in trials, they would be lower (although MagDK would be close, which is why the asylum staff is getting nerfed).

So, the measurable power creep is resultant from dps requirements that are made necessary by new, more difficult content, which are made possible by new sets that produce those levels when group skills, gear, and buffs are present and optimized. When those sets are applied to older content, they are OP, so less skilled people who now have that gear can clear that older content more easily. Is that the complaint? That things that were more difficult 3 years ago are becoming more accessible to less skilled players because dps requirements for current content necessitated increases in dps? Because I personally don't have a problem with that. The creep driven by sets is necessary along with excellent skill to clear today's trials, but it broadly sacrifices the difficulty of older content.

I'm not a very good player compared to the top tier, and if I could get Godslayer without getting carried at my current level of play, that would be unfair. But I've cleared all the HM Crag trials after lots and lots of runs. I think that's okay. It provides the ability to progress. I am rewarded for incremental improvements in my gameplay. That keeps me interested. Is that the complaint?

volkeswagon

it's just a game. Just have fun and don't think too much about trivial stuff. There are more important things to worry about. I didn't read the rant cause i didn't see a point to since I don't agree with all the negativity in these forums. Yeah the game has lag and freezes sometimes but it is what it is. I don't care. I just reload and carry on. I stay happier that way..

Alpheu5

volkeswagon wrote: »

it's just a game. Just have fun and don't think too much about trivial stuff. There are more important things to worry about. I didn't read the rant cause i didn't see a point to since I don't agree with all the negativity in these forums. Yeah the game has lag and freezes sometimes but it is what it is. I don't care. I just reload and carry on. I stay happier that way..

[Snip] People who bring this argument up never seem to grasp that some people do X, Y, or Z as an actual hobby and not just a passing entertainment, like I do when I go fishing with family. "Oh your rod broke? Don't worry, it's just fishing, there are more important things." "Oh your knife broke? Don't worry, it's just woodcarving, there are more important things." "Oh your clubs all bent? It's just golf, there are more important things." Why do anything fun when nothing entertaining really matters for survival anyways?

If the "trivial stuff" in a product are so detrimental that it results in a consumer being nearly unable to use it, it ceases being trivial and becomes something that needs to be addressed or consumers just toss it. People play this "just a game" game because of the entertainment value they can get from it, be it a reprieve at the end of a long day or a medium to connect with distant friends, and that entertainment value starts diminishing when the game-breaking problems you so readily declared as "trivial" impacts their ability to perform the tasks they want to perform. It may not bother someone who only gets on the game for a few minutes a day to do crafting writs in one town or stands around socializing, but for those who regularly utilize the game's activities where the success or failure of said activities depends entirely on the game functioning, the cumulative problems become a car boot on fun.

[Edited for bait]

Chevaliemew

volkeswagon wrote: »

it's just a game. Just have fun and don't think too much about trivial stuff. There are more important things to worry about. I didn't read the rant cause i didn't see a point to since I don't agree with all the negativity in these forums. Yeah the game has lag and freezes sometimes but it is what it is. I don't care. I just reload and carry on. I stay happier that way..

Would you play the game you consider being low quality?

furiouslog wrote: »

idk wrote: »

If power creep has not made vMA easier than what has? It is significantly easier today than 3 years ago.

Again, vMA is also much more than DPS and it is not a constant DPS and has many lulls. Both factor into why the DPS is much lower than other instances. Granted, part of that is the requirement of avoiding damage, dealing with mechanics and such but that power creep has helped lesser skilled players clear vMA just as it helps lesser skilled groups clear some of the trials, which you seem to note.

I don't have a benchmark for whether or not vMA is significantly easier, because I only actually cleared it in the past year. I theorize that if you find it easy, it's because you are highly experienced and are the kind of person who constantly engages in new challenges and self improvement, so your perception is driving it, because objective data do not appear to support that perception. Looking at some videos from 2017, dps benchmarks seen on videos for the highest scores were hitting around 28K, which is comparable to the current levels being hit by the top players. There is no other objective evidence that it's gotten easier. With respect, it's a handful of opinions from people who have been around for a really long time, and those opinions are potentially subject to a number of cognitive biases.

So, let's turn to power creep. On vSSHM ranks right now, the lowest group dps at peak periods (e.g. execute) for a successful clear is about 600K, so without factoring in the healers and tanks, we're looking at 66K dps per DD. That's the lowest average for a posted successful clear - below that they were wipes. That means that in order to clear, the combinations of player skill and the sets need to be able to produce that DPS at full tilt, on average. The range goes from 40ish to 90ish, so hitting dps within those ranges are therefore required to clear.

As I mentioned, trial dummy parsing is an artificial measure of power creep, because people who parse use unrealistic combinations of gear and skills to improve their benchmarks. Just above, @MartiniDaniels posted about hitting 60K on a 6M dummy self buffed. That's harder to do now than it was 3 years ago. That is a more appropriate comparison. Looking at trial dummy parses as evidence of power creep is a problematic measure. If people submitted parses using the gear, food, and skills they actually use in trials, they would be lower (although MagDK would be close, which is why the asylum staff is getting nerfed).

So, the measurable power creep is resultant from dps requirements that are made necessary by new, more difficult content, which are made possible by new sets that produce those levels when group skills, gear, and buffs are present and optimized. When those sets are applied to older content, they are OP, so less skilled people who now have that gear can clear that older content more easily. Is that the complaint? That things that were more difficult 3 years ago are becoming more accessible to less skilled players because dps requirements for current content necessitated increases in dps? Because I personally don't have a problem with that. The creep driven by sets is necessary along with excellent skill to clear today's trials, but it broadly sacrifices the difficulty of older content.

I'm not a very good player compared to the top tier, and if I could get Godslayer without getting carried at my current level of play, that would be unfair. But I've cleared all the HM Crag trials after lots and lots of runs. I think that's okay. It provides the ability to progress. I am rewarded for incremental improvements in my gameplay. That keeps me interested. Is that the complaint?

You really need to understand that single target DPS doesn't really have that much in common with vMA.
When I was ever talking about DPS, I meant parses on single bosses in dungeons/trials.
In vMA, you simply cannot straight DPS out certain bosses. But when you can, compare the time for it required now and 3 years ago.

furiouslog

Chevaliemew wrote: »

You really need to understand that single target DPS doesn't really have that much in common with vMA.
When I was ever talking about DPS, I meant parses on single bosses in dungeons/trials.
In vMA, you simply cannot straight DPS out certain bosses. But when you can, compare the time for it required now and 3 years ago.

I understand that perfectly. I parse and I do vMA, and trust me, I know. You said vMA got way easier and attributed it to power creep. The incremental scoring improvements in vMA over time would be a good indicator of whether or not it got easier, if you were able to remove the effect of the top players getting incrementally better in skill. So let's look at the scores. Assuming all of the top scorers got flawless and used no sigils, the rest is attributable to time. Assuming that the formula is the same across the time period and back-calculating time to complete, we have this:

PC-NA Records (Times correspond with patch releases):

Period Score Time To Complete (Minutes)
Aug 2016 597935 30.7
Oct 2016 594247 32.1
Feb 2017 595055 31.8
May 2017 601479 29.4
Aug 2017 598308 30.5
Oct 2017 602307 29.0
Feb 2018 604576 28.2
Oct 2018 611128 25.7
Feb 2019 613453 24.8
Oct 2019 614325 24.5
Feb 2020 613151 24.9

So time to completion for the record players dropped by about 15% over time. I could see why someone would think that vMA got a lot easier. However, you'd need to make the following assumptions to attribute all of that to power creep:

1. Top player skill does not change over time
2. Strategy to address mechanics does not change over time
3. Score calculation does not change over time
4. vMA design and mechanics do not change over time
5. Time to complete is directly related to DPS

That's a lot to assume, which, again, is my point. I am not failing to understand anything about the issue at hand or this game. I'm saying that your complaints about the game are (a) possibly driven by a biased perception, and (b) unjustifiably harsh given the context that power creep is a function of power required to clear new content. I've provided hard data with clear explanations as to why that is. If you don't want to accept that, that's your prerogative. Unless someone requires clarification, wishes to correct my data, or wishes to restate their complaints because I have misinterpreted them, I have nothing left to say on the matter.