I have a huge respect for tanks now

LuxLunae

ZoS put in DPS checks and is why i never completed that vet dragon dungeon with a crap load of mobs everywhere and I had to wait for the stupid dragon to come down...

I still believe in the 3DPS + 1 Healer party...

Maybe it's probably impossible...maybe...

but as zos will continue to endlessly spawn in mobs until you can't handle it, 3DPS takes the cake....

I don't know why I didn't think about this ...i'm still green i guess..

Just bring multiple armor sets... each phase we change our armor... No more dedicated BS....

Some times you will have a tank...but then the other time, you on your own DPS the HELL out of the mobs...

And then it comes back up to that 5 button first person shooter problem....

Endless spawning of mobs is [snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

UGotBenched91

Gulnagel wrote: »

Where to start..

An MMO game is no longer a new concept, it's been around for years so you would think that most player by now know the basic foundations in mmo games, right? WRONG.

I used to main a healer a few years back but I couldnt take the pug-runs with such low dps, draging out time. So I made a dps myself and never looked back.
But I wanted to level a few more characters, and thougt I'll tank again (also mained tanks in other mmos). Now the nightmare begins, even in normal random dungeons dps is extremly low, people using ice staffs stealing aggro, normal dlc dungeons with a pug feel like the special olympics. This isn't fun at all. Can't be fun for the healer and can't be fun for the dps.

I don't get it, how can it be so hard to grasp simple rotation or the holy trinity of tank, healer and dps.

How do you tanks out there manage to keep your temper?

AND yes I know "don't pug then bla bla" but I'll say this there isn' t fewer tanks in this game because it's boring to tank there are however fewer tanks because pug-finder usually puts you in The special mmo olympics.

And I do try to help, explain mechanics, but it feels like talking to a wall sometimes.
I don't know how to solve this, I guess I needed to vent my frustration.

This is were the strong advantages that console has over computer shows. On console when you join groups it automatically put you in A voice party. This makes explaining mechanics and such very easy compared to typing them all out.

And before people jump on this talking about toxicity. Played ESO on Xbox for 3 years. Had 1 toxic group experience. But, maybe I was just lucky.

Lady_Linux

Gulnagel wrote: »

Where to start..

An MMO game is no longer a new concept, it's been around for years so you would think that most player by now know the basic foundations in mmo games, right? WRONG.

I used to main a healer a few years back but I couldnt take the pug-runs with such low dps, draging out time. So I made a dps myself and never looked back.
But I wanted to level a few more characters, and thougt I'll tank again (also mained tanks in other mmos). Now the nightmare begins, even in normal random dungeons dps is extremly low, people using ice staffs stealing aggro, normal dlc dungeons with a pug feel like the special olympics. This isn't fun at all. Can't be fun for the healer and can't be fun for the dps.

I don't get it, how can it be so hard to grasp simple rotation or the holy trinity of tank, healer and dps.

How do you tanks out there manage to keep your temper?

AND yes I know "don't pug then bla bla" but I'll say this there isn' t fewer tanks in this game because it's boring to tank there are however fewer tanks because pug-finder usually puts you in The special mmo olympics.

And I do try to help, explain mechanics, but it feels like talking to a wall sometimes.
I don't know how to solve this, I guess I needed to vent my frustration.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/25Pke1HBWFhjLNrMUe/giphy.gif

MasterSpatula

Sharee wrote: »

Random group finder should not even exist. It enables players to try a social activity without the "social" part. That's just a recipe for frustration.

Oh, for crying out loud. I met half the people on my friends list by pugging dungeons.

Sange13

rainered wrote: »

Gulnagel wrote: »

Where to start..

An MMO game is no longer a new concept, it's been around for years so you would think that most player by now know the basic foundations in mmo games, right? WRONG.

I used to main a healer a few years back but I couldnt take the pug-runs with such low dps, draging out time. So I made a dps myself and never looked back.
But I wanted to level a few more characters, and thougt I'll tank again (also mained tanks in other mmos). Now the nightmare begins, even in normal random dungeons dps is extremly low, people using ice staffs stealing aggro, normal dlc dungeons with a pug feel like the special olympics. This isn't fun at all. Can't be fun for the healer and can't be fun for the dps.

I don't get it, how can it be so hard to grasp simple rotation or the holy trinity of tank, healer and dps.

How do you tanks out there manage to keep your temper?

AND yes I know "don't pug then bla bla" but I'll say this there isn' t fewer tanks in this game because it's boring to tank there are however fewer tanks because pug-finder usually puts you in The special mmo olympics.

And I do try to help, explain mechanics, but it feels like talking to a wall sometimes.
I don't know how to solve this, I guess I needed to vent my frustration.

heh what drives me nuts are the dps that run ahead and just attack everything before you can run in and pull...its usually always a stam templar. they almost die and healer has to be stressed and i know it pisses me off as i try and pull crap onto me.

Real talk, I do this as magPlar because I can handle a lot of stuff on my own just fine--but that's an important difference, imo. If you can't handle it, don't do it.

Recent

Don't forget that there are really good damage dealers too. Ive been in plenty of dungeons where tank is clueless or healer only heals at the end of a fight. It's not fair to blame everything on the damage dealers.

This post is too biased....at least allow for the fact that there are some very good dps out there too.....or your post becomes absolete.

Sealish

Recent wrote: »

Don't forget that there are really good damage dealers too. Ive been in plenty of dungeons where tank is clueless or healer only heals at the end of a fight. It's not fair to blame everything on the damage dealers.

This post is too biased....at least allow for the fact that there are some very good dps out there too.....or your post becomes absolete.

Multiple times in this thread people have said that having good DPS is important to a smooth run. No one is claiming that all DPS are bad. Far from it.

finehair

My main problem as a tank that some people think they are aragorn from lord of the rings. Yeah i get it, you guys have cool swords or staves that does pew pew, but in full heavy armor i can't run as fast as a stamsorc on full medium. And if you start the boss fight when me and others are still in other room looting stuff you get killed.
Another is that most people in EU don't use chat. I don't mind having low dps or low CP players on vet dungeons, at worst we'll get wiped and that's it really. Whenever i see a low CP player in a vet dungeon i explain them boss mechanics for vet version of it if they don't know, some people read it and try to play the mechanics if we can't cheese our way out with insane dps. But there are certain individuals who are constantly staying in the red circle or not blocking/dodging a hard hitting attack and getting killed, over and over again to the same attack. It's really annoying.

Chrysa1is

The OP will change his mind when he's in Cyrodiil and sees tanks line of sighting around trees and walls

Ahashra

I've been tanking in ESO since release, but in MMOs now for probably 12 years or so. With ESO I started with a Sorc tank at release, then went Warden, and now Necro. Between Warden and Necro I really laid off doing new content, because using sword and board just got so boring after the constant nerfs. It just felt bland and easy. Thankfully Greymore shakes up the meta a bit, but that kind of feeds into the current problem with tanking - the community.

The wider community just aren't going to understand how the tanking meta is going to change, and that will likely result in lots of anger directed at tanks. Over the last couple of years the community in general has gone from super positive through to negative in relation to tanking, that and impatient. A good group for me now consists of the DPS and healer vaguely knowing mechanics and not raging when they repeat mistakes, such as standing in something which kills them. It feels like some folks just can't handle some of the more difficult DLC, and expect the mechanics to mirror those in the earlier releases. I dunno... it's all very disheartening as a tank. I don't mind wiping, but I do mind that when we wipe someone rages at another group member - especially when it's directed at me, the tank, and they think something happening in vet shouldn't be because it doesn't in normal, etc.

I honestly love tanking and the dungeons in this game, but the negativity whilst doing content makes me want to just roll DD forever. It really bothers me and ruins any fun I have tanking, TBH.

Stx

What do you think is the best tank build to run for pugs? A more traditional build that boosts your dps with buffs.. or a build that can contribute dps itself and maybe make up for potentially bad pug dps?

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun

Tanking in MMOs for 20 years had made me numb to most things. As long as people aren't deliberately trying to annoy everyone, it's rare that I get bothered by anything.

Sharee wrote: »

Random group finder should not even exist. It enables players to try a social activity without the "social" part. That's just a recipe for frustration.

I don't know how social you think MMOs were before group finders became the standard but I promise you they weren't these loquacious wonderlands people like to pretend they were.

Step 1: "Class 'X' LFG for zone/dungeon 'Y'"
Step 2: Group up and clear area.
Step 3: Disband and go your separate ways.

Nothing changed. It's just faster now.

JanTanhide

Gulnagel wrote: »

Where to start..

An MMO game is no longer a new concept, it's been around for years so you would think that most player by now know the basic foundations in mmo games, right? WRONG.

I used to main a healer a few years back but I couldnt take the pug-runs with such low dps, draging out time. So I made a dps myself and never looked back.
But I wanted to level a few more characters, and thougt I'll tank again (also mained tanks in other mmos). Now the nightmare begins, even in normal random dungeons dps is extremly low, people using ice staffs stealing aggro, normal dlc dungeons with a pug feel like the special olympics. This isn't fun at all. Can't be fun for the healer and can't be fun for the dps.

I don't get it, how can it be so hard to grasp simple rotation or the holy trinity of tank, healer and dps.

How do you tanks out there manage to keep your temper?

AND yes I know "don't pug then bla bla" but I'll say this there isn' t fewer tanks in this game because it's boring to tank there are however fewer tanks because pug-finder usually puts you in The special mmo olympics.

And I do try to help, explain mechanics, but it feels like talking to a wall sometimes.
I don't know how to solve this, I guess I needed to vent my frustration.

LOL. You just have to be "Cool hand Luke!" when you PUG on your Tank and sit back and get ready for one heck of a ride!

JanTanhide

LOL, you mean like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZnrIVSyfH0&feature=youtu.be

Everest_Lionheart

JanTanhide wrote: »

LOL, you mean like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZnrIVSyfH0&feature=youtu.be

There is no “I” in team, but in this case we should make an exception! Maybe those guys were punking you or maybe the weed was a little too strong that night😆

Everest_Lionheart

Sange13 wrote: »

rainered wrote: »

Gulnagel wrote: »

Where to start..

An MMO game is no longer a new concept, it's been around for years so you would think that most player by now know the basic foundations in mmo games, right? WRONG.

I used to main a healer a few years back but I couldnt take the pug-runs with such low dps, draging out time. So I made a dps myself and never looked back.
But I wanted to level a few more characters, and thougt I'll tank again (also mained tanks in other mmos). Now the nightmare begins, even in normal random dungeons dps is extremly low, people using ice staffs stealing aggro, normal dlc dungeons with a pug feel like the special olympics. This isn't fun at all. Can't be fun for the healer and can't be fun for the dps.

I don't get it, how can it be so hard to grasp simple rotation or the holy trinity of tank, healer and dps.

How do you tanks out there manage to keep your temper?

AND yes I know "don't pug then bla bla" but I'll say this there isn' t fewer tanks in this game because it's boring to tank there are however fewer tanks because pug-finder usually puts you in The special mmo olympics.

And I do try to help, explain mechanics, but it feels like talking to a wall sometimes.
I don't know how to solve this, I guess I needed to vent my frustration.

heh what drives me nuts are the dps that run ahead and just attack everything before you can run in and pull...its usually always a stam templar. they almost die and healer has to be stressed and i know it pisses me off as i try and pull crap onto me.

Real talk, I do this as magPlar because I can handle a lot of stuff on my own just fine--but that's an important difference, imo. If you can't handle it, don't do it.

Yeah magplar can do that. I’ve got one also. Load up with AOE and chill in my rune jabbing away. But I don’t sprint ahead because of that damn sprint bug. Standing there in my using stamina for my magicka abilities and they aren’t even going off.

Have that same issue often when following speed runners. Sprint to keep up, arrive in battle and can’t contribute because of the same bug. About to switch to stamplar to make the bug stop.

ZeroXFF

Stx wrote: »

What do you think is the best tank build to run for pugs? A more traditional build that boosts your dps with buffs.. or a build that can contribute dps itself and maybe make up for potentially bad pug dps?

Usually you're better off doing DPS yourself. It doesn't have to be a lot, but if you can make a fully capable tank build that does 10-15k DPS, and you know all mechanics, and you can stay alive even without a healer, you will be able to carry any kind of group through even some DLC hard modes (can say from experience that it definitely works in vCoS hm). If you do damage yourself, you don't need to worry about picking up anyone if the boss is at 5% or something, you can just finish him off yourself instead of picking up some DD, who is going to die 3 times before he manages to do the remaining 5% damage, and risking dying yourself by dropping block to ress.

Also, unless you're a necro with ress ulti, the 1hs ulti is your friend in pugs. It allows you to ress someone without dropping block.

I also had a direct comparison in vWGT on last boss when I was with my hybrid Templar tank there and with a DK full tank, both with a bad group. In both groups everyone died in the shield phase with adds due to the waves. With the DK I could only helplessly watch as everyone I picked up died 3 seconds later, and watch the pushbacks when the boss jumps get stronger and stronger until I was thrown into the fire at the edge. Trying to do damage to the adds was futile, because I could not get all the adds in time before the pushbacks got too strong. With the Templar on the other hand I could push the phase easily, and we could continue the fight and eventually finish it.

And if you happen to end up with a good group, the buffs you can give as a tank to 2 people won't result in much more than a 10k DPS increase, in which case if you're doing 10k DPS yourself, it doesn't matter if you're buffing the DDs or contributing the damage directly yourself.

So in PUGs, beyond the basic tank stuff (taunting, pulling, positioning etc), you're better off building to do everything yourself rather than helping others do their job.

ZeroXFF

JanTanhide wrote: »

LOL, you mean like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZnrIVSyfH0&feature=youtu.be

Reminds me of vCoH 1 in a PUG. And in this run it wasn't even like they were dying all the time, this is just their true DPS (I was tanking, obviously, so as a tank I did 42% of the group damage).

Mr_Walker

Jayman1000 wrote: »

I'd say that a fake tank for normal dungeons should be able to dish out a good amount of dps, but still be able to at least hold aggro on the boss which can be easily done with inner fire.

I do this all the time on my main PvP character, already have backbar s+b, swap a couple of skills around, and I'm good to tank.

If I get a good group, they don't need me to DPS, and no matter how great a group is, having someone hold the boss in one place is always helpful, and if I get a bad group I can dish out some pretty solid damage. Only on normal non-DLC dungeons though.

I would like to say though, if you are going to fake tank, at least have the common courtesy to slot a taunt. If not you're just an arse.

Stratti

I have been main tanking since mid 2000 in WoW and always PUGGING. I have been Tanking since Beta and really only play tank. I've also ran PuG Normal trials, done all Vet Craglorn trials and dabbled in main tanking on Vet DLC Trials. To the OP who asked how we do it... I use rules, I stick to my rules.

#1. I don't put up with trolls or smart asses. I give the group a chance to remove the offender if not I leave. PERIOD. No matter what and that keeps me pretty sane.

#2. If the dps is low I mention, try not to be rude but I make it clear the dps is too low. I then see what the reaction is. If they get nasty refer to rule #1 - if they are apologetic then I will generally run them through and use a selfish set so that I do not die even if everyone else has died

#3. I move quickly, but if anyone pulls in front of me I point out it is slower if they open up aggro. If they get smart refer to rule #1

Remember as a tank in PUG queue you are the most important role, DPS are dime a dozen and therefore a smart alec DPS should always feel the wrath of a group kick or the pain of a group falling apart.

Sange13

Stx wrote: »

What do you think is the best tank build to run for pugs? A more traditional build that boosts your dps with buffs.. or a build that can contribute dps itself and maybe make up for potentially bad pug dps?

This gets to be a bit off-topic, but I tend to have a particular mindset about playing tanks/healers in dungeons (trials might be a different story). This mindset is simple: It's not enough to be an unkillable tank or to have every healing ability as a healer. You don't want to try to min/max that role for dungeons. What you actually want is a build that tank provide just enough tanking or healing to comfortable get through dungeons without a lot of fuss while providing something useful to the party.

Let me use a couple of builds that I like to run as exmaples.

Tank
I have a Templar tank that uses the Imperium, Baraha's Curse, and changes between Grothdarr or Lord Warden as needed. I also run Restoring Focus (either morph could work), Blood Funnel, Radiant Aura, Toppling Charge, Luminous Shards, and Solar Prison. Use Pierce Armor for taunt since you get the Minor Protection from Biting Jabs. You can swap in Silver Leash for fights that might need it (such as the darkness cave in Cradle of Shadows).

What you get is a lot of resource restore for your party, resistances for the ones that stand in your rune, you do some aoe dps while healing back during large trash packs, you proc shields for nearby allies when you take damage (helps them survive some of the aoe your party takes), some utility, and on harder fights the Lord Warden proc can further protect your party.

Healer
I also have a Warden healer that combines Spell Power Cure, Combat Physician, and Infernal Guardian. The key to this build is to run Combat Prayer (resto staff), Budding Seeds (aoe hot), and Eternal Guardian (provides a good chunk of passive dps).

The thing that makes this build tick is the interaction between the sets. If your party is at full hp and you drop Combat Prayer on them, they get the buffs from that skill, but also get the SPC buff. If it crits (or any tick from Budding Seeds does), it has a 50% chance to provide a shield to them, which then has a 50% chance to proc your monster set, which lobs 3 meteors at the furthest target for respectable damage over a small aoe. This build has a lot of flex slots on the bar for other utility or dps you may want to provide, but the goal is to increase your party's dps while minimizing the actual effort you need to put into keeping them alive so you can help contribute your own dps. This build makes a lot of runs go much quicker as long as nobody is derping out too hard on mechanics!

~

These are only one example for each of those roles, but I hope it illustrates what I mean clearly enough.

Foefaller

I usually try to laugh off their idiocy, which granted is easier to do if you can actually finish the thing. In fact, I feel like managing to drag a bad group over the finish line can sometimes be more satisfying than a perfect run, even if it did take 20 minutes longer, had us wiping three times and had me prevent a few more wipes thanks to some amazing res comebacks.

It can get kinda scary just how oblivious some people can be though. My first Scalecaller Peak clear on normal was quite... memorable, with such moments like noone attacking the adds (much less the right one) for Mortieu until I all but screamed it in chat and the healer always being the first to die because they never bothered to avoid damage fields or run for proper cover (we only defeated Zaan in two attempts because they had mastered healing themselves through pestilent breath rather than figuring out you need to run for Spellbreaker's bubble... and afterwards gushed on how awesome necro healers are) considering they had already cleared to the ogres when I showed up, they probably wiped a few times on them before the first tank left. I was afraid to ask how mamy times it was.

Stratti

I run two action bar builds with two different meta sets - Alkosh/Yoln/Chudan is my buff/main tank set - I use this if I am playing with my partner who heals because she is awesome and no need for me to be selfish. I use my vet Trial Selfish set as well which is Stonekeeper/Bastions/Leech. I typically use selfish when pugging so I am unkillable (more or less.)

Two two action bars I use is 1 for Boss and 1 for AOE add pulls. The Boss 1 has all the things you would expect. The AOE add pulls uses - Soul Trap (Aoe ability) , Caltrops , Noxious Breath, Puncture/Ransack w/e , And Talons that does dps. Also I use the Standard for Ulti. I can push a good 15-20k dps on Add packs using this and it also helps with speed running as you can tag a lot wider.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

I've had quite a lot of fun building weird tanks to help struggling groups through medium difficulty dungeons, meaning normal DLC or vet non-DLC runs. On my Templar I have set myself up with an AoE taunt to pick up groups that were ninja pulled (Explosive Charge and the Tormentor set does this very neat trick). I keep a few damage skills slotted to slowly grind down bosses on my own in cases where the group is mostly dead or attacking the wrong targets. To survive on my own, I spam Biting Jabs or wear a set like Leeching Plate or Bahraha's Curse that does more healing the more trash you have on you. If the healer is weak or lies dead a lot, I slot some emergency heals and shields to throw around. And, of course, I use food, enchants, traits and/or a Mundus effect to get enough sustain to hold my own without heals or resources from anyone else. I have made similar "leech-tank" builds with a sorc, NB, and Warden, with acceptable results. These builds are not meta by a long shot, but they make for fun and enjoyable pug tanking, and I have made at least some people happy.

There is a point where even I have to ask people not to do stupid things, and give up on the group if they won't listen, but I have raised the threshold quite a bit for what I can take, and my pug tanking has become a lot more enjoyable for it.

Kiyakotari

Famous words of the tank:

"Who is running the ice staff and heavy attacking?"

Diffused

worrallj wrote: »

If your pugging normals, just fake tank. If your pugging vets, hopefully your getting ppl that kinda know what they're doing a bit more.

Fake tanks infuriate me

Septimus_Magna

When I returned after a long break I thought tanking would be a nice change from dps, oh boy I have never been so wrong...

The que as tank is instant but you have to wait at a later stage. Literally 70% of the PUG DDs have no clue what a rotation is or how the boss mechanics work. On the first trash pull I often did 15% group dps with just Blockade, at that moment you basically know the group dps is less than 30k and the dungeon run will take a very long time. This means HM will be difficult because the players are inexperienced, depending on the dungeon it might be smarter to leave group and try again. The problem is that you cannot really carry a group with a tank setup because your damage output is too low. It often meant I just sat there watching incompetent players spam light attacks or the wrong abilities, while ignore mechanics that heal the boss for example.

My main is now respecced back to dps, for most pledges you dont need a support anyway so I mainly do 3/4 DD runs and save myself the frustration. I am by no means an elite player but I was shocked how little most players know, even basic stuff like interrupting or breaking-free is unknown to many.

If so many players have no clue there's clearly something missing in the approach to teach players basic and advanced game mechanics, how the hell do players reach CP300 without even knowing the basics?

Sange13

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

My main is now respecced back to dps, for most pledges you dont need a support anyway so I mainly do 3/4 DD runs and save myself the frustration. I am by no means an elite player but I was shocked how little most players know, even basic stuff like interrupting or breaking-free is unknown to many.

If so many players have no clue there's clearly something missing in the approach to teach players basic and advanced game mechanics, how the hell do players reach CP300 without even knowing the basics?

It's because the game--and the community--has too soft a hand toward casuals. It lets people be too casual. That's why I find it hard to take seriously the whine about "elitists," "egos," and "Leeroys." These are just excuses from people who not only don't know how to play, they refuse to learn.

Enkil

FINALLY (didn't read anything else)

Protossyder

Diffused wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

If your pugging normals, just fake tank. If your pugging vets, hopefully your getting ppl that kinda know what they're doing a bit more.

Fake tanks infuriate me

Why? Because it puts you to shame that the "tank" kills everything before you even drop your first AoE?