I have a huge respect for tanks now

Gulnagel

Where to start..

An MMO game is no longer a new concept, it's been around for years so you would think that most player by now know the basic foundations in mmo games, right? WRONG.

I used to main a healer a few years back but I couldnt take the pug-runs with such low dps, draging out time. So I made a dps myself and never looked back.
But I wanted to level a few more characters, and thougt I'll tank again (also mained tanks in other mmos). Now the nightmare begins, even in normal random dungeons dps is extremly low, people using ice staffs stealing aggro, normal dlc dungeons with a pug feel like the special olympics. This isn't fun at all. Can't be fun for the healer and can't be fun for the dps.

I don't get it, how can it be so hard to grasp simple rotation or the holy trinity of tank, healer and dps.

How do you tanks out there manage to keep your temper?

AND yes I know "don't pug then bla bla" but I'll say this there isn' t fewer tanks in this game because it's boring to tank there are however fewer tanks because pug-finder usually puts you in The special mmo olympics.

And I do try to help, explain mechanics, but it feels like talking to a wall sometimes.
I don't know how to solve this, I guess I needed to vent my frustration.

Miraslova

Gulnagel wrote: »

Where to start..

An MMO game is no longer a new concept, it's been around for years so you would think that most player by now know the basic foundations in mmo games, right? WRONG.

I used to main a healer a few years back but I couldnt take the pug-runs with such low dps, draging out time. So I made a dps myself and never looked back.
But I wanted to level a few more characters, and thougt I'll tank again (also mained tanks in other mmos). Now the nightmare begins, even in normal random dungeons dps is extremly low, people using ice staffs stealing aggro, normal dlc dungeons with a pug feel like the special olympics. This isn't fun at all. Can't be fun for the healer and can't be fun for the dps.

I don't get it, how can it be so hard to grasp simple rotation or the holy trinity of tank, healer and dps.

How do you tanks out there manage to keep your temper?

AND yes I know "don't pug then bla bla" but I'll say this there isn' t fewer tanks in this game because it's boring to tank there are however fewer tanks because pug-finder usually puts you in The special mmo olympics.

And I do try to help, explain mechanics, but it feels like talking to a wall sometimes.
I don't know how to solve this, I guess I needed to vent my frustration.

Actually I just made a NB Tank but it's a dpssy tank, still a true tank but more damage than health but just enough.
So if the dps kinda suck, I can pick up slack.

worrallj

If your pugging normals, just fake tank. If your pugging vets, hopefully your getting ppl that kinda know what they're doing a bit more.

Vevvev

Gulnagel wrote: »

How do you tanks out there manage to keep your temper?

Some of us don't... In the veteran DLC dungeons sometimes you can see the writing on the wall and are presented with 3 choices. The first is the most hardest and its teaching your group how to play the game. Reason its hard is they might not even be wearing full sets and needs lot of time crafting or collecting the right gear, they might have the wrong morphs or just the wrong abilities in general, They could be using ice staff heavy attacks or taunting abilities like you've pointed out, or they just give you the finger and not listen when you explain boss mechanics. The second option is the easiest and its to just leave which I personal hate doing, and the third is to vote kick the problem people and queue for replacements. Third option doesn't work if said person is a friend of the others and is being carried.

Overall its kind of difficult being a tank. ZOS loves giving us the important roles of manipulating the NPCs so everyone doesn't die, and your built in such a way its almost impossible to do the healing or DPS role should someone not be pulling their weight. It requires a lot of patience and dedication to do the role of a tank in ESO, which is why they are so few of them in the queues.

zvavi

I pug vet dlc on tank and usually it is more or less fine. 50% for group that goes smooth 30% for group that can do it but with straggle and 20% for total fail. Good enough for me :shrug:

Wandering_Immigrant

My pug tank is built to dish out a lil damage. I wouldn't call him a DPS by any measure, but I found his sweet-spot between kill speed and survivability training him up on world bosses and he'll widdle stuff down on his own if he has to.

My bigger pet peeve when on my tank is fake healers. I get most dungeons don't require a full on healer, but c'mon man if you're gonna queue as healer at least slot 1 heal and/or orbs because main healing a group through magma shell spam is.. lol.. don't get me wrong I'll do it, but I'd rather be using warhorn and you'd probably rather I did too.

MajThorax

Much respect to tanks and healers who take the blame for everything when dds are the real problem.

High_Solar

Thank you !

rainered

Gulnagel wrote: »

Where to start..

An MMO game is no longer a new concept, it's been around for years so you would think that most player by now know the basic foundations in mmo games, right? WRONG.

I used to main a healer a few years back but I couldnt take the pug-runs with such low dps, draging out time. So I made a dps myself and never looked back.
But I wanted to level a few more characters, and thougt I'll tank again (also mained tanks in other mmos). Now the nightmare begins, even in normal random dungeons dps is extremly low, people using ice staffs stealing aggro, normal dlc dungeons with a pug feel like the special olympics. This isn't fun at all. Can't be fun for the healer and can't be fun for the dps.

I don't get it, how can it be so hard to grasp simple rotation or the holy trinity of tank, healer and dps.

How do you tanks out there manage to keep your temper?

AND yes I know "don't pug then bla bla" but I'll say this there isn' t fewer tanks in this game because it's boring to tank there are however fewer tanks because pug-finder usually puts you in The special mmo olympics.

And I do try to help, explain mechanics, but it feels like talking to a wall sometimes.
I don't know how to solve this, I guess I needed to vent my frustration.

heh what drives me nuts are the dps that run ahead and just attack everything before you can run in and pull...its usually always a stam templar. they almost die and healer has to be stressed and i know it pisses me off as i try and pull crap onto me.

Vietfox

I don't get this thread, or at least the title.
This has nothing to do with tanks doing their job, it's more about being paired with people who can't properly do their role. Which is equally frustrating for everyone, not just tanks. Tanks and DDs at least have some kind of power role when it comes to dungeons, healers are the ones who are really screwed if they have to play with noobs since they can't finish a boss nor take the aggro.

Sharee

Random group finder should not even exist. It enables players to try a social activity without the "social" part. That's just a recipe for frustration.

FrancisCrawford

Vietfox wrote: »

I don't get this thread, or at least the title.
This has nothing to do with tanks doing their job, it's more about being paired with people who can't properly do their role. Which is equally frustrating for everyone, not just tanks. Tanks and DDs at least have some kind of power role when it comes to dungeons, healers are the ones who are really screwed if they have to play with noobs since they can't finish a boss nor take the aggro.

I'd think that most healers can easily pull half or more of the DPS they would if they were built for DPS. If that's not true with your exact default healing build, it should at least be true with minor changes that still leave you able to perform your most essential functions.

Vietfox

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Vietfox wrote: »

I don't get this thread, or at least the title.
This has nothing to do with tanks doing their job, it's more about being paired with people who can't properly do their role. Which is equally frustrating for everyone, not just tanks. Tanks and DDs at least have some kind of power role when it comes to dungeons, healers are the ones who are really screwed if they have to play with noobs since they can't finish a boss nor take the aggro.

I'd think that most healers can easily pull half or more of the DPS they would if they were built for DPS. If that's not true with your exact default healing build, it should at least be true with minor changes that still leave you able to perform your most essential functions.

IF they were built for DPS... You can easily do that on normal content, on vet your build as a healer is usually focused on healing, buffs and debuffs. If you can still pull half or more of the dps on vet that means DDs are doing a terrible job.

Sarannah

Have been playing tanks since the recent event, four weeks ago, and so far I absolutely love it. Tanked 6 or 7 dungeons today. Only pugging normal dungeons, I have noticed like 10% of the groups actually do low dps. And half of those improve in 2-3 bosses as well.
As a tank, make sure to buff your allies and debuff atleast the bosses. And use the bonus on ulti's and attacks whenever you can. This is often what tanks seem to blame the groups for(low dps), but you yourself can make major dps changes to your groups.

On very few occassions I did get someone using heavy attack ice staff. Which is kinda annoying, but oh well. This is fun when you want to practice how well you can taunt, and how aware you are on your aggro hehe.

For me the tanking has been quite smooth so far, although it is kinda labor intensive. And despite my tank itself basically doing no damage at all.

I do quite often get thrown into 'failed' runs, where someone either got kicked or left.

The biggest issues I encountered as a tank were the loot bug, where you can't click or attack anything anymore. Roll dodge fixes this, and ZOS hopefully does too one day. And dps pulling groups of mobs, after which I have to one-by-one taunt them all. And often attacks do not fire due to lag or something, causing my attack to not go off, and the monsters to run past me to the group.

PS: Advicing players to fake tank or fake heal on dungeons(normals) is not a good idea, and should be seen as a violation of the board rules in my opinion.

MartiniDaniels

I don't know how it is now, but when I actively pugged as tank (2018), I just queued non-stop for several weeks until I gathered all monster helms, that was real fun and best time I had in ESO. Only problem is vDLC dungeons because sometimes group dps is simply not sufficient even when everybody tries their best.

newtinmpls

Quoted post has been removed.

That would be me...I did play Morrowind, and did "look over the shoulder" of my sweetie playing Skyrim

But this is/was my first MMO/MMORPG ever, and I instantly despised and still struggle with "the holy [annoying] trinity"

That being the case, I will tell you that I started as a DPS, and due to (you guessed it) the need to queue faster than hours at a time, I started branching out and doing some healing; and eventually some tanking.

I've noticed that there are a lot of options for healing and tanking - and with the new classes even more so.

newtinmpls

Vevvev wrote: »

In the veteran DLC dungeons sometimes you can see the writing on the wall and are presented with 3 choices. The first is the most hardest and its teaching your group how to play the game..

This was my first "wow the tank is the hero" moment - we (a group of 3 of us) went in to an Undaunted Random, and drew a DLC we'd never done before. And a random tank.

Who asked us if we knew the dungeon, and when told we didn't, set every Boss Fight up, told us where to stand, how he was going to pull and lockdown groups - he or she was amazing.

So when I'm frustrated tanking, I just think to myself "I want to be THAT good".

Joxer61

worrallj wrote: »

If your pugging normals, just fake tank.

and therein lies the problem, that mentality. Ya know there are new tanks and such that would like to maybe say....learn the role and actually tank? But no, people feel the need to zerg the lower ones no matter what. This is where ZOS could really shine and match people better for pugs, but it wont happen so all one can hope for is that people will stp being ***....hahaha, yea, right.

Radiance

Come with patience and be willing to teach your group OR Don't. Pug. In.

ForzaRammer

zvavi wrote: »

I pug vet dlc on tank and usually it is more or less fine. 50% for group that goes smooth 30% for group that can do it but with straggle and 20% for total fail. Good enough for me :shrug:

you are just lucky, i am about 1/3, 1/3, 1/3

Joxer61

newtinmpls wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

In the veteran DLC dungeons sometimes you can see the writing on the wall and are presented with 3 choices. The first is the most hardest and its teaching your group how to play the game..

This was my first "wow the tank is the hero" moment - we (a group of 3 of us) went in to an Undaunted Random, and drew a DLC we'd never done before. And a random tank.

Who asked us if we knew the dungeon, and when told we didn't, set every Boss Fight up, told us where to stand, how he was going to pull and lockdown groups - he or she was amazing.

So when I'm frustrated tanking, I just think to myself "I want to be THAT good".

Sadly we don't get/have enough of those sorts of tanks, or people actually. Awesome you got one like that! This is the first MMO where I actually didn't tank due solely to the attitude of using fake tanks, or just thinking you don't "need" one.

ForzaRammer

Sharee wrote: »

Random group finder should not even exist. It enables players to try a social activity without the "social" part. That's just a recipe for frustration.

Agreed, time to let ppl use zone, and this will def improve server performance.

OG_Kaveman

Radiance wrote: »

Come with patience and be willing to teach your group OR Don't. Pug. In.

meh, if the there is a single player that is crap, i vote to kick that player on my tank, if the whole group is crap, i just leave, queue time is zero and i have 3 tanks i can queue on, if i am in the mood to play tank. not my job to make other players better.

Jayman1000

Joxer61 wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

If your pugging normals, just fake tank.

and therein lies the problem, that mentality. Ya know there are new tanks and such that would like to maybe say....learn the role and actually tank? But no, people feel the need to zerg the lower ones no matter what. This is where ZOS could really shine and match people better for pugs, but it wont happen so all one can hope for is that people will stp being ***....hahaha, yea, right.

I'd say that a fake tank for normal dungeons should be able to dish out a good amount of dps, but still be able to at least hold aggro on the boss which can be easily done with inner fire. That being said, consider how much longer you'd have to sit in queue as a dps if no fake tanks queued up for the tank role.... think about that for a minute.

Finally I agree that zos should give us more customized options for pugging; let like-minded people queue up together to get the experience they want.

Glurin

Well, frankly speaking, if you do your job as a tank then most of the time the only thing required of you is a little patience. As long as you're soaking the vast majority of the damage and the boss isn't tossing out too much stupid for the DPS to stand in, then you're good to go even if both the DPS have sub-par DPS. (Although, I have been told I have an extremely unusual level of patience, so I guess that might be easier said than done for most people these days.)

The only catch is when the boss has certain mechanics kick in that require the DPS to actually do something other than brainlessly mash the keyboard with their face. Things like the boss locks you down for a one-shot kill so it's up to somebody else to interrupt it before you die or quickly resurrect you if you do get killed by it. I get more failed runs because of that sort of thing than anything else.

kaisernick

As someone who doeas all three i can tell you the problem is actuall always the eleiteist a holes
Its always someone else who is the problem and they often cry that that person is bad when they are often the ones running ahead pulling mobs standing in fire yet think they are one best of the best.

In the end ppl need to stop taking the game so seriously, ido i get stressed if we get suck at a certain point in a dungon yes, but i dont take it out of others.

GalexPK

Today i did Unhallow Grave, tried to ask the if they want to do hidden bosses, healer asked if they knew mechanics, no reply, dps dying and the tank both with a childish actitude in chat (the way the dps wrote and started to mimic me said it all), what i started asking as a way to explain things went to a really toxic group, good thing the healer was neutral but agaisnt their actitude (they even tried to kik me lol) I guess thats why they both queue togheter, to avoid getting kik. Thats why PUG is so bad, people are toxic and dumb.

Ps: me and healer were max CP, the others ones not.

Jayman1000

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: Advicing players to fake tank or fake heal on dungeons(normals) is not a good idea, and should be seen as a violation of the board rules in my opinion.

I think it depends on the definition of a fake tank. Abysmal fake tanks that queue to DLC dungeons, can't dps, can't tank, can't even self heal, dies, dont res others, runs ahead, dies again, etc; no, just do not tank at all. In fact don't go into any dungeon if you do this.

But a fake tank in non-DLC dungeons that have good dps, have enough self heal and res others if need be, is not bad. Consider that their tank role queueing enables a group to assemble and go to the dungeon and have a nice experience even if the tank isnt actually tanking. Compare this to still sitting around in the queue... Would you prefer waiting an additional 15-30 min in the queue as dps if you knew you only got TRUE tanks for simple non-dlc normals? I certainly wouldnt.

Florial

I either tank or heal dungeons and it can be an exercise in patience. I mostly use public dungeons and group dungeons to level up all my characters----just love the dungeons in ESO. This time around, I'm tanking with my new stamina necro and it has been interesting. She's ultimately going to be a PvP character but I threw on some heavy gear and do have taunts. She is doing pretty good.

I find most groups mostly silent although people do love to run forward and start fights without the group. It is especially frustrating when trying to do quests. I'm seeing lots of lots of new players who haven't done the dungeons before so I essentially slow down and try to take our time. Most groups are patient when you stop and communicate.

Disagree though about queuing as a fake tank. I was doing Icereach? farming for my Hiti's gear for my healer. The number of fake tanks was disheartening and a detriment to the group. Even though it is an easy dungeon, endlessly rezzing the tank who has 17k health and melts when a boss looks at them is no fun. I finally brought in my real tank after numerous painful runs and it was so much better. Even though the game has been out for quite awhile, there are many new players so it pays to be patient. At least as the tank, I can somewhat control the run.

kichwas

Gulnagel wrote: »

But I wanted to level a few more characters, and thougt I'll tank again (also mained tanks in other mmos). Now the nightmare begins, even in normal random dungeons dps is extremly low, people using ice staffs stealing aggro, normal dlc dungeons with a pug feel like the special olympics. This isn't fun at all. Can't be fun for the healer and can't be fun for the dps.

Not just Ice staff...

I find it a normal occurrence to zone in and find 1 other person using sword and shield... so I look at the party and they're marked as DPS, me as tank (it has happened once where we were both marked as tank and I was thinking... what? but that one was on the game, not either of us).

That noted below a certain level you should just kinda shrug. I think I was through about 3-5 dungeons on my fist DPS before someone told me to stop using a frost staff and I looked and realized why... Yesterday I explained to someone I just helped get into this game that if they want to be melee DPS, avoid one-hand and shield - which is not intuitively obvious. So I get it when I zone into a level 10-20 dungeon and there's a DPS with a shield on and a healer who's bar swapping to ice staff...

At that level the very fact that the healer even knows about bar swapping is a plus...


Do note that tanking here can be especially weird if you ARE a veteran MMO player.

In WoW no tank worries about buffs and debuffs on the group. That was the job of things like shamans, years ago, and is largely now gone from the game.

In FFXIV the tank's first job is to maximize their DPS, their second is to follow pre-scripted position mechanics. Their third, for only one of the two in the raid is to hold aggro. The other one is there to wait for the first one to fail or sometimes every rare boss or so to do a short term aggro swap...

Here your jobs is to be a buff / debuff machine, and to sometimes hold aggro on some of the pull...

That's some serious unlearning you've got to do to relearn the system here... and I'm just in the initial phases of that by the way...


As someone who has just hit their first level 50, and is just going through the mindset change from two other MMOs to this one... Those DLC dungeons... when they unlock at 45... people are NOT ready for them...

They have been massive wipe fests for me, half of that my fault, half the other PUGlies with me that likewise just unlocked them... we usually only get through if there's someone with 200+ champion points that essentially carries us and/or shows up the mechanics.

When you're in the 'normal' queue; you are going to get a LOT of people who have not been running dungeons here for years - and even if they've been running them for years over in another MMO; it's different here.

I see that I have unlocked half the vet-dungeons, but I'm not planning to try them yet; personally... until I feel I've got my head on right about the way this game does things... Because I suspect I am still mentally half bringing my Brewmaster and my Darknight on my 'third bar swap' when I show up here with my Templar...

Kurat

If you pug dungeons, it's best to adjust your build. Most tanks who complain about low dps are usually experienced tanks, done trials and etc. New, no cp tanks who still learning are not generally impatient. So if you are experienced player, why are you even tanking normal dungeons lol? And why are you going in there with vet trial setup so you cant do more than 3k dps? Put on damage set and slot inner fire, keep bosses still and do 90% of the dps. No problem. You are not fake tank, you just made some adjustments as you would for vet harder content as required. Even vet dlc dungeon bosses dont hit so hard that you need to have 40k+ hp and have full tank sets. I know it's not your job but fo some damage if you find pugs too slow. You can easily tank any vet dlc dungeon with 30k hp and 1 dps set and do 20-25k dps. And when I say adjust I dont mean change cp or attributes. Just shuffle some gear, skills and food. If you use 1 setup for all the content, you will get frustrated.
Only people who are not that great themselves seem to complain the most.