Nightblade, class design and combat balance

Ragnaroek93

Lord-Otto wrote: »

But what to do about it? Everyone got the message that NB is bad. There were no changes this patch because there aren't ANY class balance changes. You're just wasting time by repeating the obvious. Get to it and offer improvement suggestions! Open a thread on that matter if you really wanna get something done!

Actually bug fixing the class and not introducing stupid changes which affect Nbs in a worse way than the classes which the nerfs are targeted at (20% healing nerf) would be a start...

Other than that there are thousands of suggestions to buff the class. And if they're too lazy to do so they can even go to a previous iteration in which Nb did work and revert changes (but we all know that they're too proud for this, just look at frag stun...). I'm honestly sick of making suggestions, the class has no pressure, no burst and no defense (weakest healing which even gets nerfed and Cloak is buggy) and there are thousands of ways (even very lazy ways) to fix that.

Suligost

I proposed to make out of NB bloodzerker/blood mage - cloak is crap (low def to make it worth, easy to take you out of it, clunky - buffing it is not a solution it is just bad skill), buffs were taken, invsibile will be available to everyone. Class need rework towards new direction.

MusCanus

Suligost wrote: »

I proposed to make out of NB bloodzerker/blood mage - cloak is crap (low def to make it worth, easy to take you out of it, clunky - buffing it is not a solution it is just bad skill), buffs were taken, invsibile will be available to everyone. Class need rework towards new direction.

Read the in game description of NBs and think twice. People chose to play this class not because they wanted to play some zerker, blood or not. Your suggestion would at least need to come with class change tokens, and even then a lot of NB players will just quit. Many already did.

Suligost

MusCanus wrote: »

Suligost wrote: »

I proposed to make out of NB bloodzerker/blood mage - cloak is crap (low def to make it worth, easy to take you out of it, clunky - buffing it is not a solution it is just bad skill), buffs were taken, invsibile will be available to everyone. Class need rework towards new direction.

Read the in game description of NBs and think twice. People chose to play this class not because they wanted to play some zerker, blood or not. Your suggestion would at least need to come with class change tokens, and even then a lot of NB players will just quit. Many already did.

I dont care, ZoS dont care, so play different game (assasin's creed, some thief, Dishonored). NB was nerfed not without reason and I must say I will be always againt any cheap classes that want to kill in 1 combo without getting into full combat - no skill and not competitive.

MusCanus

Suligost wrote: »

MusCanus wrote: »

Suligost wrote: »

I proposed to make out of NB bloodzerker/blood mage - cloak is crap (low def to make it worth, easy to take you out of it, clunky - buffing it is not a solution it is just bad skill), buffs were taken, invsibile will be available to everyone. Class need rework towards new direction.

Read the in game description of NBs and think twice. People chose to play this class not because they wanted to play some zerker, blood or not. Your suggestion would at least need to come with class change tokens, and even then a lot of NB players will just quit. Many already did.

I dont care, ZoS dont care, so play different game (assasin's creed, some thief, Dishonored). NB was nerfed not without reason and I must say I will be always againt any cheap classes that want to kill in 1 combo without getting into full combat - no skill and not competitive.

I don't care what you will be always against or what you consider cheap either, so play a different game that has zerkers or blood mages or whatever you fancy.

Suligost

[Snip] they will never bring back one shoot - no risk

[Edited for bait]

Aedaryl

Suligost wrote: »

[Snip] they will never bring back one shoot - no risk
[Edited for bait]

If you have a brain you cannot be one shot.

That always been.

MusCanus

There hasn't been such thing as oneshot for years, unless you're stuck in... what, 2017?

hakan

Wait they DID say no changes will come to classes? and even including nightblade in paranthesis? Damn, ive been waiting for nothing. No ESO in summer then.

Iskiab

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

But what to do about it? Everyone got the message that NB is bad. There were no changes this patch because there aren't ANY class balance changes. You're just wasting time by repeating the obvious. Get to it and offer improvement suggestions! Open a thread on that matter if you really wanna get something done!

That’s easy. There aren’t many changes needed to make NB good:
- buff surprise attack and concealed weapon
- change magic flood (max mag passive) so it doesn’t require slotting a siphoning skill
- reduce the cost of shade and swallow soul
- fix dark cloak if it’s busted, I’m not sure if it’s broken or it’s just that minor protection doesn’t show on the UI

Dead skills are another larger issue, just want to be able to make something competitive

Yup, I can get behind those changes. Bit boring and won't suffice, but they make sense. Numbers are missing, however. How much more damage on SA? How much less cost on Shade?

No idea. If I pulled out a number it’d be out of my butt without any substance.

The main thing is swallow soul is more expensive than other spammables and weaker. When you look at force pulse it’s cheaper, hits harder, benefits from the destro staff passive pen, and is a weapon skill so can proc stuff like glyphs. Swallow soul heals, but then you see people say magblade doesn’t need a burst heal because of swallow soul, so it’s a circular argument. It’s weaker than other spammables for damage and you need it for the healing. The kit funnels you into using an undertuned ability.

As for the other stuff, I see no reason for shade to be more expensive than streak. It can’t be spammed and is weaker. Concealed and surprise attack need to be good enough to use, not sure how much of a buff it’d need.

Ragnaroek93

Suligost wrote: »

[Snip] they will never bring back one shoot - no risk
[Edited for bait]

I mean stamcro/stamden can basically do that. At least to a better extend than Nb can do.

Suligost

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Suligost wrote: »

[Snip] they will never bring back one shoot - no risk
[Edited for bait]

I mean stamcro/stamden can basically do that. At least to a better extend than Nb can do.

I dont argue that NB need back minor berserk and other buffs, stamcro need nerf of his defile and stamden is tough with old NB buffs. I just dont want buffing invsibile cuz to make it available we would need giaaaaant buff and that from the other side would shift class towards once more 1 shoot - no risk, so thats why I rather see complete rework of class

Atherakhia

At the very least they should make cloak give you a large, brief shield and make it so DOTs against shields don't break invis.

Nemesis7884

for me personally my main issue with nb - for me as a casual pve player - is that

a) most updated skills feel like afterthoughts and not with a holistic concept in mind
b) the combat/skill flow feels really bad and clunky...

martinhpb16_ESO

Mishaxki wrote: »

Nightblade, class design and combat balance...

Goes like this:

Step 1) Attack Target(s) with EVERYTHING you got
Step 2) If Target(s) die, see Step 1
Step 3) If Target(s) do not die immediately, try to cloak
Step 4) Crap they pulled me out of cloak (If Templar is pursuing, proceed immediately to Step 7)
Step 5) Cloak is bugged, run like Hell
Step 6) Snared and cannot run
Step 7) Death

This is spot on but you forgot Step 8

Step 8) Receive a tea bagging or hate whisper telling you "l2p coward"

martinhpb16_ESO

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

But what to do about it? Everyone got the message that NB is bad. There were no changes this patch because there aren't ANY class balance changes. You're just wasting time by repeating the obvious. Get to it and offer improvement suggestions! Open a thread on that matter if you really wanna get something done!

I've been doing Destiny 2 PvP. I'll hop back on Nioh 2 once they come out with a DLC. The FF7 remake was also fantastic! First game I've ever gone out of my way to Platinum. Oh and I'm looking forward to seeing more info about Godfall.

I'm just trying to give my fellow NB mains some ideas.

Personally have jumped over to Old School RuneScape and boy... Feels good knowing the time and effort you put into a game can't get nerfed. Feels like I can breath again and have fun. Thinking of jumping on my Nightblade since release feels like more work than fun at this point. Tired of those games and disappointed in ESO for it.

I've been playing Bannerlord, totally different game, but at least I don't feel the frustration with what they have done with my NB.

My ESO game time has dropped by 80%, I have been playing NB main since Beta. I'm only coming on to play now and then with my small pvp guild.

The recent confirmation that there are no incoming fixes to NB are pushing me away from ESO even more.

raistin87

Chelo wrote: »

Mishaxki wrote: »

Nightblade, class design and combat balance...

Goes like this:

Step 1) Attack Target(s) with EVERYTHING you got
Step 2) If Target(s) die, see Step 1
Step 3) If Target(s) do not die immediately, try to cloak
Step 4) Crap they pulled me out of cloak (If Templar is pursuing, proceed immediately to Step 7)
Step 5) Cloak is bugged, run like Hell
Step 6) Snared and cannot run
Step 7) Death

This is so true hahahahaha hopefully we could get some class updates by the end of the year.

Thats why they introduced Snow Treaders and Ring of the Wild Hunt. With them, you would be more efficient at step 5 or skip step 6 and proceed directly to 7.

raistin87

I would say reverting grim focus to its previous form with minor berserk is pretty good first step.

Chelo

Aedaryl wrote: »

Chelo wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Man, after last 4 updates it is obvious that balance is driven by marketing and it always be a mess. So either ride on marketing meta vagon each patch, or persevere or move on to other games.
When ZOS nerfs Truth in U25 and then rolls-out Stuhn's in U26 (same team within 3 months!)... it is P2W, nothing else.

Not pay to win for stuhn's since you don't need greymoor to get it. It's just an other bad decision.

Malacth band's of brutality howerver is P2W.

By this logic, not a single paid content could have gear in it, not even in DLC Trials and Dungeons... So every expansion ever would be consider P2W?...

Malacath band of brutaly if it's stay as is it, will be needed for everyone exept NB in PvP.

You either get it or get reckt by it hard.

When something is that essentiel and provide huge statistical advantage locked behind pay content, then it can be considered as pay to win.

I want a version "decrease your dmg done by 25% but you always do critical damage" hahaha 🤣👌🏿

xaraan

I do think they should have done a little tinkering with NB this patch instead of making players wait months for something to maybe be done. If they don't have time for an overhaul, just tweaking a few skills and passives could go a long way. Stam sorc however is not in a bad place, even before they messed with them a couple patches ago they were in a good place. I've never understood the players that keep asking for zos to tinker with them. Sure, there are some improvements I can think of I'd like to see on them, but they are at a place where I'm more afraid they will make the class worse than better.

Chelo

Suligost wrote: »

I proposed to make out of NB bloodzerker/blood mage - cloak is crap (low def to make it worth, easy to take you out of it, clunky - buffing it is not a solution it is just bad skill), buffs were taken, invsibile will be available to everyone. Class need rework towards new direction.

Cloak is the whole reason I made a NB 6 years ago... Been a Rogue\Assassin in MMOs 17 years...

Kadoin

Show of hands, who will seriously PvP next patch with the upcoming changes? The game becomes a meme.

I will only go to use a super tank build doing damage to see the forums explode

mc_icecream

I see a lot of complaints about cloak. Honestly it is a useless skill in its current state. So much so that I have dropped the skill altogether with moderate success. This shouldn't be the case. Nightblades are the rouges of ESO, and we work better when we don't stealth? At least this is my experience.

Which got me thinking why is cloak useless? Cloak is useless because all of the ways we can be ripped out of it e.g. mages light, hunter, AOE, light attacks, revealing flare, the skill just didn't work etc. Its mostly useless once combat is started and with all of the ways we can be pulled out along with everyone getting access to a watered down version of it a simple change could bring cloak back to my bar.

What I propose, getting rid of "Increases the duration of stun from Sneak by 100%" from the master assassin passive and instead we get something like "Attacks from sneak guarantee a critical hit". Remove "Guarantees a Critical Strike on your next attack" from Shadowy Disguise and add something like "The next time you receive damage while invisible you heal for 50% of that damage instead". This forces people to think about how they remove Nightblades from cloak instead of just spamming AOE abilities they have to either slot mages light, hunter, flare or deal with the consequences of a "burst heal".

Also can we please increase Dark Cloak's duration to 15 seconds to be on par with Necro shade?

Kadoin

mc_icecream wrote: »

What I propose, getting rid of "Increases the duration of stun from Sneak by 100%" from the master assassin passive and instead we get something like "Attacks from sneak guarantee a critical hit". Remove "Guarantees a Critical Strike on your next attack" from Shadowy Disguise and add something like "The next time you receive damage while invisible you heal for 50% of that damage instead". This forces people to think about how they remove Nightblades from cloak instead of just spamming AOE abilities they have to either slot mages light, hunter, flare or deal with the consequences of a "burst heal".

Also can we please increase Dark Cloak's duration to 15 seconds to be on par with Necro shade?

The only problem is that someone would then be able to spam cloak or use other invis methods to guarantee an absolute defense with effectively 50 percent damage reduction as long as you don't die from whatever hit you, or whatever it will be after reducing the healing and reapplying all the multipliers back on it from buffs and CP. On a skill that already provides damage avoidance, makes you untargettable, and forces miss, that is way too much of an OP suggestion unless it had a cooldown.

Even then because of certain proc sets like Curse Eater, you would be able to have too much of an advantage with one skill. In this example damage avoidance + force miss + untargettable + heal + purify. That's too much defensive power IMO.

EDIT: Can't forget Curse-Eater returns mag as well ...

mc_icecream

Kadoin wrote: »

mc_icecream wrote: »

What I propose, getting rid of "Increases the duration of stun from Sneak by 100%" from the master assassin passive and instead we get something like "Attacks from sneak guarantee a critical hit". Remove "Guarantees a Critical Strike on your next attack" from Shadowy Disguise and add something like "The next time you receive damage while invisible you heal for 50% of that damage instead". This forces people to think about how they remove Nightblades from cloak instead of just spamming AOE abilities they have to either slot mages light, hunter, flare or deal with the consequences of a "burst heal".

Also can we please increase Dark Cloak's duration to 15 seconds to be on par with Necro shade?

The only problem is that someone would then be able to spam cloak or use other invis methods to guarantee an absolute defense with effectively 50 percent damage reduction as long as you don't die from whatever hit you, or whatever it will be after reducing the healing and reapplying all the multipliers back on it from buffs and CP. On a skill that already provides damage avoidance, makes you untargettable, and forces miss, that is way too much of an OP suggestion unless it had a cooldown.

Even then because of certain proc sets like Curse Eater, you would be able to have too much of an advantage with one skill. In this example damage avoidance + force miss + untargettable + heal + purify. That's too much defensive power IMO.

EDIT: Can't forget Curse-Eater returns mag as well ...

I hadn't thought of that, put a cool down on the heal. 5 seconds? 10? The problem is when cloak doesn't work we die. I don't want an endless chain of infinite healing I want a consulation prize when it doesn't work.


edit: changed "it" to "on the heal"

Deathlord92

Suligost wrote: »

MusCanus wrote: »

Suligost wrote: »

I proposed to make out of NB bloodzerker/blood mage - cloak is crap (low def to make it worth, easy to take you out of it, clunky - buffing it is not a solution it is just bad skill), buffs were taken, invsibile will be available to everyone. Class need rework towards new direction.

Read the in game description of NBs and think twice. People chose to play this class not because they wanted to play some zerker, blood or not. Your suggestion would at least need to come with class change tokens, and even then a lot of NB players will just quit. Many already did.

I dont care, ZoS dont care, so play different game (assasin's creed, some thief, Dishonored). NB was nerfed not without reason and I must say I will be always againt any cheap classes that want to kill in 1 combo without getting into full combat - no skill and not competitive.

Then you must hate templars because they have the most easiest brain dead skill rotation lmao 🤣

xI_The_Owl_Ix

Kadoin wrote: »

Show of hands, who will seriously PvP next patch with the upcoming changes? The game becomes a meme.

I will only go to use a super tank build doing damage to see the forums explode

Ill be playing a 10k wep dmg vamp bow ganker.Because thats what ZoS apparently wants. GG.

blueirbis

To add my 2 cent to the discussion, i agree there should be changes to some of the class. I also feel that in order for this to happen, the community should provide as much as constructive feedback as possible.

From my perspective (playing cloaking magNB, PvP) the changes should not really alter the class, rather smooth out edges and make current mechanisms even with other classes arsenal. I feel that the assassin identity should be emphasized.

Here are some changes i would propose and open for discussion:

Major changes:
1/ Merciless resolve: this is the staple NB ability for both PvP and PvE. Its very powerful, works well PvE wise, however in PvP its seriously lacking. The idea behind the ability to me is to slighly outbalance your oponent with series of attacks before delivering a final devastating blow. That much is good. However, due to how easily it can be nullified, it becomes very frustrating to use. I propose to leave the ability as it is, only
a) reduce the travel time significantly (to make dodging it harder)
b) make it unblockable - it makes sense lore wise - assassins skill is to see through the defenses
these changes would have no impact on PvE where i belive skill works mostly fine, but would greatly increase PvP utility (and greatly increase difficulty/reward ratio for that frustrating 5 point minigame) and would greatly add to the assassin-like feeling

2/ Cloak: much has been said
a) should be made to work better, so that it does not get cancelled by random effects as well as half abiliites in the game (this was mentioned elsewhere on the forums, where are really too many ways for this to be cancelled)
b) it should have like first 1 or 2s of "improved invisibility" - when it cannot be cancelled except for detect potions/abilities - this i believe would help immensely in general situations (general aoe spam), while rewarding players actually building for detection

3/ Shade
- increase in duration, to say 30s, would make it much easier to use, without being really game altering. Considering this is one of major defensive mechanisms for NB, i think its worth considering

4/ Incapacitating strike/soul harvest
as mentioned somewhere else in the forums, i really like idea of this ability behaving like an execute, gradually increasing damage when under 50% health. This would make it a player choice, wheather to use it in beginning of the combo, in order to increase damage of subsequent atacks or as a powerful finisher. Again, this would add to assassin-like feeling of the class

Minor changes
5/ Mass hysteria
- provide it with debuff on the enemy (minor maim again?)/ caster buff. I really believe class abilities should be more powerful in nature than analogue skills from FG/vamp skilllines

6/ Swallow soul+concealed weapon
- slightly buff/ increase damage. Again I really believe class abilities should be more powerful in nature than analogue skills from generic class lines

Overall, i dont believe any of these changes would dramatically change the way the class is played, but could drastically improve the game experience and enchance the "assassin" class identity.

IronWooshu

The argument about P2W armor is rediculous. How else are they going to sell expansions? Have trials and quests that reward nothing. Where do all the new sets go? Random non DLC overland drops?

Ragnaroek93

blueirbis wrote: »

To add my 2 cent to the discussion, i agree there should be changes to some of the class. I also feel that in order for this to happen, the community should provide as much as constructive feedback as possible.

From my perspective (playing cloaking magNB, PvP) the changes should not really alter the class, rather smooth out edges and make current mechanisms even with other classes arsenal. I feel that the assassin identity should be emphasized.

Here are some changes i would propose and open for discussion:

Major changes:
1/ Merciless resolve: this is the staple NB ability for both PvP and PvE. Its very powerful, works well PvE wise, however in PvP its seriously lacking. The idea behind the ability to me is to slighly outbalance your oponent with series of attacks before delivering a final devastating blow. That much is good. However, due to how easily it can be nullified, it becomes very frustrating to use. I propose to leave the ability as it is, only
a) reduce the travel time significantly (to make dodging it harder)
b) make it unblockable - it makes sense lore wise - assassins skill is to see through the defenses
these changes would have no impact on PvE where i belive skill works mostly fine, but would greatly increase PvP utility (and greatly increase difficulty/reward ratio for that frustrating 5 point minigame) and would greatly add to the assassin-like feeling

2/ Cloak: much has been said
a) should be made to work better, so that it does not get cancelled by random effects as well as half abiliites in the game (this was mentioned elsewhere on the forums, where are really too many ways for this to be cancelled)
b) it should have like first 1 or 2s of "improved invisibility" - when it cannot be cancelled except for detect potions/abilities - this i believe would help immensely in general situations (general aoe spam), while rewarding players actually building for detection

3/ Shade
- increase in duration, to say 30s, would make it much easier to use, without being really game altering. Considering this is one of major defensive mechanisms for NB, i think its worth considering

4/ Incapacitating strike/soul harvest
as mentioned somewhere else in the forums, i really like idea of this ability behaving like an execute, gradually increasing damage when under 50% health. This would make it a player choice, wheather to use it in beginning of the combo, in order to increase damage of subsequent atacks or as a powerful finisher. Again, this would add to assassin-like feeling of the class

Minor changes
5/ Mass hysteria
- provide it with debuff on the enemy (minor maim again?)/ caster buff. I really believe class abilities should be more powerful in nature than analogue skills from FG/vamp skilllines

6/ Swallow soul+concealed weapon
- slightly buff/ increase damage. Again I really believe class abilities should be more powerful in nature than analogue skills from generic class lines

Overall, i dont believe any of these changes would dramatically change the way the class is played, but could drastically improve the game experience and enchance the "assassin" class identity.

Haven't played much magblade and therefore I can't comment much on the class. What I noticed when I played it a bit was that the class has really bad sustain (especially the defense is way too expensive), bad healing and cast time on a meele ult is really bad.