Nightblade, class design and combat balance

Ragnaroek93

Considering the current balance I would have expected that Nb and stamsorc (and magnecro in PvP) get some kind of headstart into the new expansion. However, that's obviously not the case. In fact they get even nerfed more than other classes by reducing healing by 20% in PvP across the board and the malacath ring has really bad synergie this them (Nb has a crit and crit dmg passive and guaranteed crit out of Cloak and sorc relies on crit for healing). Considering how strong Malacath ring is right now you can basically uninstall the game as well if you are PvP player and don't have it and therefore classes with bad synergie with it can be deleted as well...

Since I main a Nb I'll go a bit more in detail for the class. The class got overnerfed with the Elswyer patch but got mitigation on Grim Focus which made it playable (not meta, but I could make it work at least). Then you added a cast time to Incap/Soul Harvest (and even on soul siphon which is a defensive ultimate WHILE NOT GIVING THE TEMPLAR ULT A CASTTIME ON THEIR ULTIMATE LOL), nerfed the mitigation on Grim Focus which was a small compensation buff for everything we lost (defile, fracture, minor berserc, stamrec, our snare (yes, we don't have a class snare anymore) and aoe minor maim on Fear) and even tried to nerf Shadow Image on top of that. I can't hit Incap anymore after a CC anymore which messes up my CC -> Incap -> execute burst completely. Then you broke Cloak with the "performance" update, it doesn't work reliable anymore and gets broken by a lot stuff which isn't supposed to break it (like light attacks, proc sets, gapcloser and whatever I don't know, I'm tired of testing).

And now I expected that the class gets finally some love after over a year. Instead I can't stun with heavy attack into surprise attack out of Cloak anymore like described in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/522906/huge-hidden-stamblade-pvp-nerf/p1. Furthermore they remove bash damage which is a direct nerf to all instant cast spammables like Surprise Attack and meanwhile Dizzy and Jabs are the strongest spammables and are affected the least by this and don't get any adjustments either. The three two piece sets which I'd recommend for Nb get nerfed (Bloodspawn, Grundwulf and Troll King). A new ring gets released which is broken (+25% damage and doesn't increase your tooltip, this means it's a TRUE 25% dmg increase like perma Major Vuln) which destroys every class with crit mechanics. And that's not enough, because stamina Necromancer and Warden have overhealing we're getting a 20% healing nerf across the board. While defiled my vigor ticks crit for less than 1k and my Cloak doesn't work reliably either on PTS.

I've mained Nb for 6 years and competed in high end duels and PvP and can I do this anymore? Nope, I'd need to reroll to compete with stam necro and warden. At this point Nb would need 10000000000000 buffs in order to be able to compete with stam necro and stam warden. And I'm pretty sure that stamsorc mains and people who play mag necro in PvP can tell you similar stories. PvP balance is much worse than it used to be and your class overhauls didn't improve anything at all (we're at a point in which whole classes get banned from duel tournaments, this did never happened before).

And according to this quote

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Shadowasrial wrote: »

@ZOS_BillE @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_AntonioP @ZOS_JessicaFolsom can the nightblade please get a response on if we can expect some class changes this patch? I’m sure you are all aware of how unhappy many in the community are with their beloved class and it would go a long way to know if we can expect some love this coming dlc. Thanks for all you do and hope to hear some good news.

Class changes (including Nightblade) are not part of the focus for this upcoming update, and very few adjustments will be made relative to other changes. As Brian mentioned in his preview, the primary focus for Update 26 is reinforcing itemization standards, improving quality of life for werewolves, and a few adjustments regarding PvP balance.

from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/524116/can-the-nb-community-please-get-an-answer/p1 we won't see any meaningful class changes for this update. Then looking on Steam, I see that the game had 50k concurrent players last week. So I have to ask: 50k concurrent players on Steam alone aren't enough reason for your combat balance team to put in some work and effort into the game and fix the things which they did break during the past patches (or at least try to do so or revert a few of the bad decisions which you did to the classes)?

MusCanus

The premise that they're able to understand what you're saying is false.
[snip]

[edited for bashing image]

Lughlongarm

I checked your "Malacath ring" theory, it seems to me as it functions like any other "damage done" buff in the game in the sense that the bonus is Multiplicative as far as I can tell.

But, something I didn't realize up to this point and it's all thanks to this post in which mostly I don't agree with.

"Malacath ring" is equipped with The blood thirsty" trait which has the description of "increase damage against" other than Increase damage done.

Basically based on my testings, the interaction between the Malacath ring" buff and the "blood thirsty" trait buff , is additive other than Multiplicative. Which is very strong indeed.

Battlegrounds are going to be very funny in the upcoming patch.

raistin87

Yes, the class have indeed been gutted.

But I think you are missing the point. The rationale was not to make the game more balanced, but to make the classes locked behind paywall more appealing.

MartiniDaniels

Man, after last 4 updates it is obvious that balance is driven by marketing and it always be a mess. So either ride on marketing meta vagon each patch, or persevere or move on to other games.
When ZOS nerfs Truth in U25 and then rolls-out Stuhn's in U26 (same team within 3 months!)... it is P2W, nothing else.

Aedaryl

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Man, after last 4 updates it is obvious that balance is driven by marketing and it always be a mess. So either ride on marketing meta vagon each patch, or persevere or move on to other games.
When ZOS nerfs Truth in U25 and then rolls-out Stuhn's in U26 (same team within 3 months!)... it is P2W, nothing else.

Not pay to win for stuhn's since you don't need greymoor to get it. It's just an other bad decision.

Malacth band's of brutality howerver is P2W.

Nagastani

Well I was in Cyrodiil the other day and DC NBs there were doing very well with Incap and SA. They killed like half my group with ease and were moving so fast you could not target them especially with a 2 Hander, dodged my bow shots.

I do empathize with NBs as anymore it seems the cloak is not enough, you have to really prepare for a fight. Only problem with that is no burst heals to speak of aside from Vigor or like a Resto Staff perhaps.

Deathlord92

Yup I’m very disappointed as well if I can’t enjoy nb then I will simply play other games where real rogues are viable be it mmo or RPG all I care about is enjoying my game.

Firstmep

I suspect the surge of new players has to do with Skyrim coming to Eso as well as the global pandemic.
Most new players won't give 2 *** about balance, since it can be months before(if ever) they get into content where this matters.
Also cripple still has a 30% snare.
I've already pointed this out in other threads, but this current balance team has a very narrow focus, and it's unlikely that they would deviate from this.
At least this patch I can understand why they're holding back, since there are some massive itemization changes, if they added significant class changes, they could break just as much as they could fix.
Last patch though, lol, apparently the balance team is also responsible for performance, since the reason for not doing class changes they gave was that they were focused on performance.
Unfortunately, with the pandemic in full swing everywhere, we can prob expect the entire team to slow down, which is understandable.

Chelo

Aedaryl wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Man, after last 4 updates it is obvious that balance is driven by marketing and it always be a mess. So either ride on marketing meta vagon each patch, or persevere or move on to other games.
When ZOS nerfs Truth in U25 and then rolls-out Stuhn's in U26 (same team within 3 months!)... it is P2W, nothing else.

Not pay to win for stuhn's since you don't need greymoor to get it. It's just an other bad decision.

Malacth band's of brutality howerver is P2W.

By this logic, not a single paid content could have gear in it, not even in DLC Trials and Dungeons... So every expansion ever would be consider P2W?...

MartiniDaniels

Chelo wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Man, after last 4 updates it is obvious that balance is driven by marketing and it always be a mess. So either ride on marketing meta vagon each patch, or persevere or move on to other games.
When ZOS nerfs Truth in U25 and then rolls-out Stuhn's in U26 (same team within 3 months!)... it is P2W, nothing else.

Not pay to win for stuhn's since you don't need greymoor to get it. It's just an other bad decision.

Malacth band's of brutality howerver is P2W.

By this logic, not a single paid content could have gear in it, not even in DLC Trials and Dungeons... So every expansion ever would be consider P2W?...

When you nerf something from base game and then immediately provide better version of it in DLC/chapter, yes it is P2W. And there were too many balance pendulum swings last 4-5 updates like that, to consider it random change.

Aedaryl

Chelo wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Man, after last 4 updates it is obvious that balance is driven by marketing and it always be a mess. So either ride on marketing meta vagon each patch, or persevere or move on to other games.
When ZOS nerfs Truth in U25 and then rolls-out Stuhn's in U26 (same team within 3 months!)... it is P2W, nothing else.

Not pay to win for stuhn's since you don't need greymoor to get it. It's just an other bad decision.

Malacth band's of brutality howerver is P2W.

By this logic, not a single paid content could have gear in it, not even in DLC Trials and Dungeons... So every expansion ever would be consider P2W?...

Malacath band of brutaly if it's stay as is it, will be needed for everyone exept NB in PvP.

You either get it or get reckt by it hard.

When something is that essentiel and provide huge statistical advantage locked behind pay content, then it can be considered as pay to win.

Aztlan

Like the OP, I've been a Nightblade main since launch, but I find I'm playing my Templar and Warden more and more these days.

I'm sympathetic, but I agree with what someone said in a similar thread recently. ZOS has prioritized fixing the server issues and unresponsive skill bugs, and they're all working from home. There's only so much they can do at once.

olsborg

Agree, nb is in a terrible, terrible spot atm, also Dark Cloaks minor protection is also not working as it should...its not applying the buff at all.

Nagastani

Nightblade, class design and combat balance...

Goes like this:

Step 1) Attack Target(s) with EVERYTHING you got
Step 2) If Target(s) die, see Step 1
Step 3) If Target(s) do not die immediately, try to cloak
Step 4) Crap they pulled me out of cloak (If Templar is pursuing, proceed immediately to Step 7)
Step 5) Cloak is bugged, run like Hell
Step 6) Snared and cannot run
Step 7) Death

Chelo

Mishaxki wrote: »

Nightblade, class design and combat balance...

Goes like this:

Step 1) Attack Target(s) with EVERYTHING you got
Step 2) If Target(s) die, see Step 1
Step 3) If Target(s) do not die immediately, try to cloak
Step 4) Crap they pulled me out of cloak (If Templar is pursuing, proceed immediately to Step 7)
Step 5) Cloak is bugged, run like Hell
Step 6) Snared and cannot run
Step 7) Death

This is so true hahahahaha hopefully we could get some class updates by the end of the year.

Lord-Otto

But what to do about it? Everyone got the message that NB is bad. There were no changes this patch because there aren't ANY class balance changes. You're just wasting time by repeating the obvious. Get to it and offer improvement suggestions! Open a thread on that matter if you really wanna get something done!

MusCanus

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Open a thread on that matter if you really wanna get something done!

How many there should be?

Nagastani

Lord-Otto wrote: »

But what to do about it? Everyone got the message that NB is bad. There were no changes this patch because there aren't ANY class balance changes. You're just wasting time by repeating the obvious. Get to it and offer improvement suggestions! Open a thread on that matter if you really wanna get something done!

Whoever works on NB again (in deciding the concept) needs to go out and play it for a couple weeks First. I cannot do this for them and the group of NB players as a whole can only present our case.

Usually when I need to understand something I go back to how it all first started. And that's the idea here, go play the NB class for 2 or 3 weeks, try out all regular roles. Present your findings. Then look at how the NB began, how it has changed over time. Compare it to the strength of Templars, Sorcs, DKs, everyone else that you meet playing as a NB in Cyrodiil.

Does the NB stand tall against these other class or does it stand long? It can't do either. That's why you either bomb someone or execute a successful attack and you're good. If you fail in the moment of truth then everyone else will just burst heal over your dmg and you're done when cloak and resources are exhausted.

Lord-Otto

Mishaxki wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

But what to do about it? Everyone got the message that NB is bad. There were no changes this patch because there aren't ANY class balance changes. You're just wasting time by repeating the obvious. Get to it and offer improvement suggestions! Open a thread on that matter if you really wanna get something done!

Whoever works on NB again (in deciding the concept) needs to go out and play it for a couple weeks First. I cannot do this for them and the group of NB players as a whole can only present our case.

Usually when I need to understand something I go back to how it all first started. And that's the idea here, go play the NB class for 2 or 3 weeks, try out all regular roles. Present your findings. Then look at how the NB began, how it has changed over time. Compare it to the strength of Templars, Sorcs, DKs, everyone else that you meet playing as a NB in Cyrodiil.

Does the NB stand tall against these other class or does it stand long? It can't do either. That's why you either bomb someone or execute a successful attack and you're good. If you fail in the moment of truth then everyone else will just burst heal over your dmg and you're done when cloak and resources are exhausted.

Yes, that is a good idea. Supposedly, Gilliam has a lot of NB experience, but... eeeeeh.
That's a developer thing, however. I've seen countless threads lamenting the state of NBs, but that's not really helpful.
ZOS need ideas they will probably ignore, but maybe one or two make it through, it has happened before. So get your ship together and condense all the complaints into a singular suggestion thread.

Regarding your question, Mus, most NB threads are diluted with complaints about the current state, but offer little constructive advice. So it requires at least one more thread.

Strider__Roshin

Lord-Otto wrote: »

But what to do about it? Everyone got the message that NB is bad. There were no changes this patch because there aren't ANY class balance changes. You're just wasting time by repeating the obvious. Get to it and offer improvement suggestions! Open a thread on that matter if you really wanna get something done!

I've been doing Destiny 2 PvP. I'll hop back on Nioh 2 once they come out with a DLC. The FF7 remake was also fantastic! First game I've ever gone out of my way to Platinum. Oh and I'm looking forward to seeing more info about Godfall.

I'm just trying to give my fellow NB mains some ideas.

Lord-Otto

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

But what to do about it? Everyone got the message that NB is bad. There were no changes this patch because there aren't ANY class balance changes. You're just wasting time by repeating the obvious. Get to it and offer improvement suggestions! Open a thread on that matter if you really wanna get something done!

I've been doing Destiny 2 PvP. I'll hop back on Nioh 2 once they come out with a DLC. The FF7 remake was also fantastic! First game I've ever gone out of my way to Platinum. Oh and I'm looking forward to seeing more info about Godfall.

I'm just trying to give my fellow NB mains some ideas.

Eh, Destiny 2, especially PvP, is a whole other ugly can of worms. Bungie have a lot to correct. Nioh 2 looks awesome, been watching a friend streaming it. What did you think of the FF7R ending?

Giving ideas is the way to go, IMO. 99 may be ignored, but if only one makes it through, it was worth it. You know how Streak stuns through block? My idea. Well, and a few other forum users. ZOS can only pick up ideas if you give them, and it's easier if you leave out the distracting rest.

Strider__Roshin

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

But what to do about it? Everyone got the message that NB is bad. There were no changes this patch because there aren't ANY class balance changes. You're just wasting time by repeating the obvious. Get to it and offer improvement suggestions! Open a thread on that matter if you really wanna get something done!

I've been doing Destiny 2 PvP. I'll hop back on Nioh 2 once they come out with a DLC. The FF7 remake was also fantastic! First game I've ever gone out of my way to Platinum. Oh and I'm looking forward to seeing more info about Godfall.

I'm just trying to give my fellow NB mains some ideas.

Eh, Destiny 2, especially PvP, is a whole other ugly can of worms. Bungie have a lot to correct. Nioh 2 looks awesome, been watching a friend streaming it. What did you think of the FF7R ending?

Giving ideas is the way to go, IMO. 99 may be ignored, but if only one makes it through, it was worth it. You know how Streak stuns through block? My idea. Well, and a few other forum users. ZOS can only pick up ideas if you give them, and it's easier if you leave out the distracting rest.

I'll PM

Iskiab

Lord-Otto wrote: »

But what to do about it? Everyone got the message that NB is bad. There were no changes this patch because there aren't ANY class balance changes. You're just wasting time by repeating the obvious. Get to it and offer improvement suggestions! Open a thread on that matter if you really wanna get something done!

That’s easy. There aren’t many changes needed to make NB good:
- buff surprise attack and concealed weapon
- change magic flood (max mag passive) so it doesn’t require slotting a siphoning skill
- reduce the cost of shade and swallow soul
- fix dark cloak if it’s busted, I’m not sure if it’s broken or it’s just that minor protection doesn’t show on the UI

Dead skills are another larger issue, just want to be able to make something competitive

Strider__Roshin

Iskiab wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

But what to do about it? Everyone got the message that NB is bad. There were no changes this patch because there aren't ANY class balance changes. You're just wasting time by repeating the obvious. Get to it and offer improvement suggestions! Open a thread on that matter if you really wanna get something done!

That’s easy. There aren’t many changes needed to make NB good:
- buff surprise attack and concealed weapon
- change magic flood (max mag passive) so it doesn’t require slotting a siphoning skill
- reduce the cost of shade and swallow soul
- fix dark cloak if it’s busted, I’m not sure if it’s broken or it’s just that minor protection doesn’t show on the UI

Dead skills are another larger issue, just want to be able to make something competitive

Add "remove cast times from instant cast ultimates" and that would be enough for me to start playing again.

Joosef_Kivikilpi

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

But what to do about it? Everyone got the message that NB is bad. There were no changes this patch because there aren't ANY class balance changes. You're just wasting time by repeating the obvious. Get to it and offer improvement suggestions! Open a thread on that matter if you really wanna get something done!

I've been doing Destiny 2 PvP. I'll hop back on Nioh 2 once they come out with a DLC. The FF7 remake was also fantastic! First game I've ever gone out of my way to Platinum. Oh and I'm looking forward to seeing more info about Godfall.

I'm just trying to give my fellow NB mains some ideas.

Personally have jumped over to Old School RuneScape and boy... Feels good knowing the time and effort you put into a game can't get nerfed. Feels like I can breath again and have fun. Thinking of jumping on my Nightblade since release feels like more work than fun at this point. Tired of those games and disappointed in ESO for it.

usmcjdking

I don't find NB to be thematically lacking or even weak. Below par? Yes. Weak? No.

What I do find is that it's proclaimed method of dispatching opponents is not anywhere near as effective as other classes largely due to power creep and ease of passive (or low active) defensive capabilities. Whereas NB used to thrive off very sudden and very violent 100-0 bursts, almost no one builds glassy enough anymore (Thanks Fury and Heavy New Moon!) for NBs to perform said burst.

NBs did have some balancing issues at their zenith, mostly for the same reasons they struggle to kill anything now (too much EHP and muh invis to boot). But both their internal class defenses AND damage have been gutted too badly - enough to the point that they are not competitive in either scenario.

With that said, I don't think the class is weak, but it's clear it's behind. I'd like to see the stealth passive completely removed and making the way for a niche damage passive that provides both PVP and PVE utility. Something like "Hitting a target with an assassination ability reduces it's resistances by 1500/3000 for 2/4 seconds" would give NB much needed damage.

brandonv516

I'd suggest other frustrated NB mains either seek passion in another class or another game. I couldn't find the former so I chose the latter.

I'll be sailing around in SoT until they plan on paying some attention to NBs again.

Btw well written post OP.

MusCanus

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

Add "remove cast times from instant cast ultimates" and that would be enough for me to start playing again.

And to compensate increase the minimum travel time of Grim Focus to 1.1 sec.
Or leave the cast times and increase it to 1.5 sec

Lord-Otto

Iskiab wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

But what to do about it? Everyone got the message that NB is bad. There were no changes this patch because there aren't ANY class balance changes. You're just wasting time by repeating the obvious. Get to it and offer improvement suggestions! Open a thread on that matter if you really wanna get something done!

That’s easy. There aren’t many changes needed to make NB good:
- buff surprise attack and concealed weapon
- change magic flood (max mag passive) so it doesn’t require slotting a siphoning skill
- reduce the cost of shade and swallow soul
- fix dark cloak if it’s busted, I’m not sure if it’s broken or it’s just that minor protection doesn’t show on the UI

Dead skills are another larger issue, just want to be able to make something competitive

Yup, I can get behind those changes. Bit boring and won't suffice, but they make sense. Numbers are missing, however. How much more damage on SA? How much less cost on Shade?

silky_soft

Bring back 0 dot damage while in cloak. Bring back the choice of cloak crit or cloak cleanse.
Bring back defile and knockdown to incap.
Bring back snare.
Keep stun from cloak.
Nerf fg fear back to undead and ww.

Just waiting for alliance change so I can bring dk over to AD and roll my face on the keyboard.