Clarification On Roaring Opportunist Change, Please

tmbrinks

Paired with Jorvuld's, even on a healer not speccing into any extra heavy attack damage, RO gives 15% damage boost for 7 seconds on a cooldown of 22 seconds. With a very, very, very easy proc condition

That's a 4.77% boost to group DPS to everything, all mobs. (Without Jorvuld's it's 3.4%)

Martial Knowledge is an 8% boost for 5 seconds with an 8 second cooldown (and a more difficult proc condition) for a 5% boost to a single target. MK cannot be applied to multiple targets (think Triplets in vHoF, or when there are adds up in any boss fight)

Z'en's is a maximum 5% boost, provided you can have 5 DoTs on a target at a time. While not overly difficult to do, you certainly don't have it on every add, if you have 2 or 3 major targets, they are bound to fall off.

So MK and Z'ens have the potential to be more powerful than RO. RO is much easier to apply and applies to all damage going out.

Dagoth_Rac

Inferno heavy attacks are clunky and annoying. No one feels like doing nothing for what feels like 10 seconds while the heavy attack winds up. Even then, getting a 96k heavy attack is borderline impossible, so the max uptime of 12/22 = 54% will never be achieved. Probably not even close. And even if you wanted to, building for such gigantic heavy attacks will make you weak in other areas, and all for meh uptime on a buff that is available elsewhere.

Lightning heavy attacks are a lot more engaging and fun, certainly the most appealing of any heavy attack. But final "shock ball" that counts as the true "fully charged heavy attack" does not do enough damage because it is final tick of a channeled attack. So it will get bad uptime on Major Slayer, making the only somewhat enjoyable heavy attack build a no-go for this set.

This set needs more tweaking. Before, a healer would wear it. Now, no one will wear it. It is a significant DPS loss for the player wearing it and a minimal group DPS gain.

Maybe double the duration of Major Slayer for the player wearing Roaring Opportunist?

Runefang

I think I finally understand who will wear this set.

Tanks who taunt with Ice staff heavy attacks! It all makes sense now!

navystylz_ESO

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I think ZOS have just moved from "Alkosh v2.0" to a more modest variant - enforcing "one HA petsorc per mag group" meta.

And yes, I read it as 5s plus 1s for every 8k damage dealt by the heavy.

The wording makes it seems 8k for every 1 second. Once calculated regardless of your damage you will do at least 5 seconds, but if your damage is better you will fall somewhere between 5-12 seconds.

WrathOfInnos

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Tested a few things on RO. Here are my thoughts.

1. You need to get 96k HA to hit the 12 second max. It was unclear whether it was 5 sec + 8k for each second after or 8k for each second with 5 sec minimum. It ended up being the latter, so healers will need to build for HA damage and time it with OB and Major Vuln to get that full 12 seconds. Otherwise, you're going to have to pair it with Jorvuld's to get reasonable uptime on it.
2. I tried out a magDK DPS build with Siroria and RO, maximizing CPs into Staff Expert, putting down Standard, debuffing with Engulfing, buffing with Molten, etc. I got only ~75k on my HA. I think if I had timed it with OB, I could have hit the 96k target. But it goes to show that you need to basically build as a HA DPS to maximize your uptime.
3. So because of 2, I think RO will end up being paired with Jorvuld's, and MK/Z'en will move to a magDK DPS instead, for magicka groups. Stamina groups are still going to run Lokke on their DPS and MK/Z'en on a healer. JG + RO gives you a minimum of 7 seconds uptime, with a possibility of 8 seconds if you can hit 48k on your HA ticks or 9 seconds with 56k ticks.
4. This doesn't change the composition for stamina groups, and mixed groups are just difficult to build around to begin with...

So the changes don't really change anything about incentivizing HA builds because those still suck. All it did was widen the skill gap (since you're gonna be timing it with OB and Major Vuln) and shift some sets around.

Yes agree with everything here. The removal of the off-balance requirement did nothing, because you can’t hit anywhere near 96k with a Heavy Attack unless the enemy is off-balance.

It only seems to be affected by the last tick of a Channeled Heavy, so Lightning and Resto heavies are not viable for good uptimes. It pretty much has to be used on a MagDK with an Inferno Staff and Molten Armaments, and timed to coincide with Major Vuln and Off-Balanced (that is difficult, massive skill gap).

And to get better uptimes than Architect or to replace Lokkestiiz it’s still going to be paired with Jorvulds. This leads to a strange new creation, a MagDK in RO/Jorv building high Spell Damage and using an Inferno Staff to buff the group (maybe double Infernos to fit vMA), but with gear and rotation too weak to be called a DPS, more like a support/buff “healer”. Maybe they’ll also get the task of spamming Stone Giant for Stagger since it seems problematic when tanks have to permablock in vKA. Doesn’t sound very fun to me, but this is the meta that was created today.

I’m sure of one thing, the players that enjoy “easy Sorc” heavy attack pet builds cannot use RO effectively. They are nowhere near a 96k tick with the end of their Lightning channel. They aren’t going to want to use Jorvulds (healing done and 2X mag recovery on a Heavy Attack build, lol). And they will not be holding their heavy attacks waiting for an off-balance window. A build like this would be lucky to provide 1/3 of the Major Slayer uptime compared to the one I described above.

I still think this should just be embraced as an inevitable support set, and changed so that the average healer can use it reasonably well (~50k hit for 12s?). Then we need a Magicka DPS set added to Kyne’s Aegis. A real one, like Relequen, Siroria, etc.

TeIvanni

Players: "We think the 22 second cooldown should be lowered to 20, this would make it easier to time/maintain with off balance"

ZoS: "We heard that players didn't like the small window of time to proc this set with offbalance, so we removed the off balance requirement, but have left the 22 second cooldown untouched. Oh, by the way, to make the most out of this set you will still need to time your heavy attacks with off balance, but now you also need to be a DK, with Molag Kena, and the Vampire Toggle."

Players: ???

T3hasiangod

tmbrinks wrote: »

Paired with Jorvuld's, even on a healer not speccing into any extra heavy attack damage, RO gives 15% damage boost for 7 seconds on a cooldown of 22 seconds. With a very, very, very easy proc condition

That's a 4.77% boost to group DPS to everything, all mobs. (Without Jorvuld's it's 3.4%)

Martial Knowledge is an 8% boost for 5 seconds with an 8 second cooldown (and a more difficult proc condition) for a 5% boost to a single target. MK cannot be applied to multiple targets (think Triplets in vHoF, or when there are adds up in any boss fight)

Z'en's is a maximum 5% boost, provided you can have 5 DoTs on a target at a time. While not overly difficult to do, you certainly don't have it on every add, if you have 2 or 3 major targets, they are bound to fall off.

So MK and Z'ens have the potential to be more powerful than RO. RO is much easier to apply and applies to all damage going out.

It's actually less than that because you have other Damage Done and Damage Taken modifiers. Damage Done modifiers are more plentiful in this game; hence why debuffs like Z'en and MK are so strong comparatively.

If we assume you also have Minor Slayer and Minor Berserk active with 13 percent from Elemental Expert and let's say 21 percent from MAA, then the minimum you're getting from RO with Jorvuld's would actually be:

(1 + 0.08 + 0.05 + 0.13 + 0.21 + 0.15 * 7/22)/(1 + 0.08 + 0.05 + 0.13 + 0.21) = ~3.24%

If we assume you have only Minor Vulnerability active and getting maximum uptime on Major Vulnerability, then the minimum you're getting from MK/full stack of Z'en would actually be:

(1 + 0.08 + 0.25 * 8/20 + 0.05)/(1 + 0.08 + 0.25 * 8/20) = ~4.23%

So it's pretty weak...

Kolzki

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Tested a few things on RO. Here are my thoughts.

1. You need to get 96k HA to hit the 12 second max. It was unclear whether it was 5 sec + 8k for each second after or 8k for each second with 5 sec minimum. It ended up being the latter, so healers will need to build for HA damage and time it with OB and Major Vuln to get that full 12 seconds. Otherwise, you're going to have to pair it with Jorvuld's to get reasonable uptime on it.
2. I tried out a magDK DPS build with Siroria and RO, maximizing CPs into Staff Expert, putting down Standard, debuffing with Engulfing, buffing with Molten, etc. I got only ~75k on my HA. I think if I had timed it with OB, I could have hit the 96k target. But it goes to show that you need to basically build as a HA DPS to maximize your uptime.
3. So because of 2, I think RO will end up being paired with Jorvuld's, and MK/Z'en will move to a magDK DPS instead, for magicka groups. Stamina groups are still going to run Lokke on their DPS and MK/Z'en on a healer. JG + RO gives you a minimum of 7 seconds uptime, with a possibility of 8 seconds if you can hit 48k on your HA ticks or 9 seconds with 56k ticks.
4. This doesn't change the composition for stamina groups, and mixed groups are just difficult to build around to begin with...

So the changes don't really change anything about incentivizing HA builds because those still suck. All it did was widen the skill gap (since you're gonna be timing it with OB and Major Vuln) and shift some sets around.

Totally agree. I tested similar things and came to all the same conclusions. Is it supposed to scale like this or is it a bug? With the current scaling this is a healer set.

TeIvanni

These changes do not promote what the Developers stated was the intended effect.
Healers will still end up running RO, but now they'll be required to be a DK (with molten armaments) and stack spell damage.

If ZoS want's RO to be run on a Damage Dealer they will need to change it's proc condition.

Here is an example that could possibly work in the way the developer is trying to force upon the player base:
Dealing damage with a Fully-Charged Heavy Attack to an enemy grants you and up to 11 group members Major Slayer, increasing you damage done to Dungeon, Trial, and Arena Monsters by 15% for 1 second for every 25,000 damage you have dealt to the target in the past 5 seconds.
Roaring Opportunist can only affect a target every 22 seconds.

Minimum duration: 5 seconds.
Maximum duration 12 seconds.

I do not like this change and i don't think many other players would either.
But, it would work more effectively to force this set onto a dps class.

Obviously the 25,000 damage per second could be adjusted based upon what is realistic for a DPS to output CONSTANTLY (not burst) but CONSISTENTLY, not including ults, etc.

Kolzki

SodanTok wrote: »

show previous quotes

ATreeGnome wrote: »

All this is going to do is make healers find ways to maximize their heavy attack damage. If ZOS wants to make heavy attack builds competitive they need to just buff heavy attacks, not this silly scheme to force players who don't want to do a heavy attack rotation to do a heavy attack rotation.

Cant you see it for what it is? DK healer buff

How hard does a fully buffed dk healer in jorvulds hit? I think that' you'll struggle to reach the 48k heavy attack that you need for a 6 second buff (+jorvulds). This would also be a crit and your crit chance and crit damage will be really low.

Skjaldbjorn

Kolzki wrote: »

show previous quotes

SodanTok wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

All this is going to do is make healers find ways to maximize their heavy attack damage. If ZOS wants to make heavy attack builds competitive they need to just buff heavy attacks, not this silly scheme to force players who don't want to do a heavy attack rotation to do a heavy attack rotation.

Cant you see it for what it is? DK healer buff

How hard does a fully buffed dk healer in jorvulds hit? I think that' you'll struggle to reach the 48k heavy attack that you need for a 6 second buff (+jorvulds). This would also be a crit and your crit chance and crit damage will be really low.

Stolen from one of my healers;



So, see? All you need is a DK with 20 stack Thrassian and crit on every heavy attack and that sweet, sweet maximum uptime from a 96k heavy can be yours. Easy.

Thanks, Zos.

DarkShadowFax

Sooooo I went to try it on a HA petsorc (1x Crit/5x Siroria/5x RO/Thrassian 20stacks) and even on that thing I had an absolutely abysmal uptime (20%) on the Major Slayer.
I think someone went a bit overboard in the adjustments..

Skjaldbjorn

DarkShadowFax wrote: »

Sooooo I went to try it on a HA petsorc (1x Crit/5x Siroria/5x RO/Thrassian 20stacks) and even on that thing I had an absolutely abysmal uptime on the Major Slayer.
I think someone went a bit overboard in the adjustments..

Because it only factors the final tick of a lightning heavy lol

Tannus15

I don't think I've ever seen a more elegant statement by ZoS that they don't play or understand end game PvE, especially magicka dps, than this set.

Runefang

TeIvanni wrote: »

These changes do not promote what the Developers stated was the intended effect.
Healers will still end up running RO, but now they'll be required to be a DK (with molten armaments) and stack spell damage.

If ZoS want's RO to be run on a Damage Dealer they will need to change it's proc condition.

Here is an example that could possibly work in the way the developer is trying to force upon the player base:
Dealing damage with a Fully-Charged Heavy Attack to an enemy grants you and up to 11 group members Major Slayer, increasing you damage done to Dungeon, Trial, and Arena Monsters by 15% for 1 second for every 25,000 damage you have dealt to the target in the past 5 seconds.
Roaring Opportunist can only affect a target every 22 seconds.

Minimum duration: 5 seconds.
Maximum duration 12 seconds.

I do not like this change and i don't think many other players would either.
But, it would work more effectively to force this set onto a dps class.

Obviously the 25,000 damage per second could be adjusted based upon what is realistic for a DPS to output CONSTANTLY (not burst) but CONSISTENTLY, not including ults, etc.

The easiest way to make it a DPS set is to prevent the player wearing the set from healing other players for the duration of the major slayer buff.

DarkShadowFax

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

show previous quotes

DarkShadowFax wrote: »

Sooooo I went to try it on a HA petsorc (1x Crit/5x Siroria/5x RO/Thrassian 20stacks) and even on that thing I had an absolutely abysmal uptime on the Major Slayer.
I think someone went a bit overboard in the adjustments..

Because it only factors the final tick of a lightning heavy lol

Well then. That ruined many a HA petsorcs' dreams. I already had a feeling they did that though since I only got 5sec duration procs same as a non-Jorvulds healer -_-
And Inferno heavies are positively clunky.

Kolzki

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Stolen from one of my healers;



So, see? All you need is a DK with 20 stack Thrassian and crit on every heavy attack and that sweet, sweet maximum uptime from a 96k heavy can be yours. Easy.

Thanks, Zos.

That's pretty awesome. Remind me to slot an execute on my healer to get those killing blows Oh wait... it's a dk

WrathOfInnos

Runefang wrote: »

show previous quotes

TeIvanni wrote: »

These changes do not promote what the Developers stated was the intended effect.
Healers will still end up running RO, but now they'll be required to be a DK (with molten armaments) and stack spell damage.

If ZoS want's RO to be run on a Damage Dealer they will need to change it's proc condition.

Here is an example that could possibly work in the way the developer is trying to force upon the player base:
Dealing damage with a Fully-Charged Heavy Attack to an enemy grants you and up to 11 group members Major Slayer, increasing you damage done to Dungeon, Trial, and Arena Monsters by 15% for 1 second for every 25,000 damage you have dealt to the target in the past 5 seconds.
Roaring Opportunist can only affect a target every 22 seconds.

Minimum duration: 5 seconds.
Maximum duration 12 seconds.

I do not like this change and i don't think many other players would either.
But, it would work more effectively to force this set onto a dps class.

Obviously the 25,000 damage per second could be adjusted based upon what is realistic for a DPS to output CONSTANTLY (not burst) but CONSISTENTLY, not including ults, etc.

The easiest way to make it a DPS set is to prevent the player wearing the set from healing other players for the duration of the major slayer buff.

Or they could make it something that is actually fun to use on a DPS build. Nobody pushed Master Architect onto healers because DPS are willing to use their ultimates and buff their allies. Compare that to IA, which required heavy attacks to proc and was usually forced onto healers. It would also help if multiple DPS could use the set and increase group uptimes, instead of an arbitrary limit of one user.

The vast majority of DPS do not want to play a slow, clunky, heavy attack build. I don’t think we can be any more clear about this. We hated it after the Morrowind sustain changes, we hated it during the off-cycle PTS, and we will continue to hate it despite constant pushing from the devs.

If I wanted to spend 2-3s charging up each attack I would go play FFXIV (it actually runs without desyncs, ping spikes and crashes), ESO is different because it is fast-paced and engaging. Heavy Attacks and skills like Crystal Blast break the flow of combat, and players will do everything they can to avoid it.

karekiz

This set just needs a redesign. At first I thought they were making it an alkosh set. I mean Roaring opportunist. Roar of Alkosh. It was literally in the name. It made some sense.

Then this change 0_o. Who is this designed for? I guess the idea is you have multiple people running it doing HA's so you can leech of procs from other mag DPS to boost uptime? If I am reading it correctly <Which I definitely couldn't be>. Seems like a clunky thing.

WrathOfInnos

karekiz wrote: »

This set just needs a redesign. At first I thought they were making it an alkosh set. I mean Roaring opportunist. Roar of Alkosh. It was literally in the name. It made some sense.

Then this change 0_o. Who is this designed for? I guess the idea is you have multiple people running it doing HA's so you can leech of procs from other mag DPS to boost uptime? If I am reading it correctly <Which I definitely couldn't be>. Seems like a clunky thing.

@karekiz Nope that does not work. You can only receive the buff once every 22s so only one person in a group can use it.

Runefang

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

show previous quotes

Runefang wrote: »

TeIvanni wrote: »

These changes do not promote what the Developers stated was the intended effect.
Healers will still end up running RO, but now they'll be required to be a DK (with molten armaments) and stack spell damage.

If ZoS want's RO to be run on a Damage Dealer they will need to change it's proc condition.

Here is an example that could possibly work in the way the developer is trying to force upon the player base:
Dealing damage with a Fully-Charged Heavy Attack to an enemy grants you and up to 11 group members Major Slayer, increasing you damage done to Dungeon, Trial, and Arena Monsters by 15% for 1 second for every 25,000 damage you have dealt to the target in the past 5 seconds.
Roaring Opportunist can only affect a target every 22 seconds.

Minimum duration: 5 seconds.
Maximum duration 12 seconds.

I do not like this change and i don't think many other players would either.
But, it would work more effectively to force this set onto a dps class.

Obviously the 25,000 damage per second could be adjusted based upon what is realistic for a DPS to output CONSTANTLY (not burst) but CONSISTENTLY, not including ults, etc.

The easiest way to make it a DPS set is to prevent the player wearing the set from healing other players for the duration of the major slayer buff.

Or they could make it something that is actually fun to use on a DPS build. Nobody pushed Master Architect onto healers because DPS are willing to use their ultimates and buff their allies. Compare that to IA, which required heavy attacks to proc and was usually forced onto healers. It would also help if multiple DPS could use the set and increase group uptimes, instead of an arbitrary limit of one user.

The vast majority of DPS do not want to play a slow, clunky, heavy attack build. I don’t think we can be any more clear about this. We hated it after the Morrowind sustain changes, we hated it during the off-cycle PTS, and we will continue to hate it despite constant pushing from the devs.

If I wanted to spend 2-3s charging up each attack I would go play FFXIV (it actually runs without desyncs, ping spikes and crashes), ESO is different because it is fast-paced and engaging. Heavy Attacks and skills like Crystal Blast break the flow of combat, and players will do everything they can to avoid it.

Don't get me wrong, I do hate the set as it is. It's bad enough most trifecta seeking/score pushing groups are running 2-3 magcros when people hate to play them because they're so clunky. Having somebody running a magDK or magblade with a HA every 22 seconds would be awful for yet another player in the group.

Sometimes I think the devs don't understand why their game is fun.

tmbrinks

T3hasiangod wrote: »

show previous quotes

tmbrinks wrote: »

Paired with Jorvuld's, even on a healer not speccing into any extra heavy attack damage, RO gives 15% damage boost for 7 seconds on a cooldown of 22 seconds. With a very, very, very easy proc condition

That's a 4.77% boost to group DPS to everything, all mobs. (Without Jorvuld's it's 3.4%)

Martial Knowledge is an 8% boost for 5 seconds with an 8 second cooldown (and a more difficult proc condition) for a 5% boost to a single target. MK cannot be applied to multiple targets (think Triplets in vHoF, or when there are adds up in any boss fight)

Z'en's is a maximum 5% boost, provided you can have 5 DoTs on a target at a time. While not overly difficult to do, you certainly don't have it on every add, if you have 2 or 3 major targets, they are bound to fall off.

So MK and Z'ens have the potential to be more powerful than RO. RO is much easier to apply and applies to all damage going out.

It's actually less than that because you have other Damage Done and Damage Taken modifiers. Damage Done modifiers are more plentiful in this game; hence why debuffs like Z'en and MK are so strong comparatively.

If we assume you also have Minor Slayer and Minor Berserk active with 13 percent from Elemental Expert and let's say 21 percent from MAA, then the minimum you're getting from RO with Jorvuld's would actually be:

(1 + 0.08 + 0.05 + 0.13 + 0.21 + 0.15 * 7/22)/(1 + 0.08 + 0.05 + 0.13 + 0.21) = ~3.24%

If we assume you have only Minor Vulnerability active and getting maximum uptime on Major Vulnerability, then the minimum you're getting from MK/full stack of Z'en would actually be:

(1 + 0.08 + 0.25 * 8/20 + 0.05)/(1 + 0.08 + 0.25 * 8/20) = ~4.23%

So it's pretty weak...

Thanks for the expanded explanation. I'll admit I'm not enough of a theory crafter to know all the multipliers and how they all interact!

What about RO being able to be applied to all targets (multiple bosses/trash/etc) versus MK/Z'en's being single target? I know many of the boss fights it is essentially single target, since any additional targets are significantly lower health. But what about fights like the Twins in vMoL or triplets in vHoF? Would RO come out ahead? Far enough ahead to be worthwhile?

MK can only be applied to a single target per cooldown.

Z'en's can be applied to multiple, but at increasing difficulty due to it's requirement of targeted DoTs, rather than ground AoEs

ATreeGnome

It's frustrating that ZOS can't seem to differentiate between making heavy attack builds viable and forcing players to use heavy attack builds.

Skjaldbjorn

ATreeGnome wrote: »

It's frustrating that ZOS can't seem to differentiate between making heavy attack builds viable and forcing players to use heavy attack builds.

Yeah, I mean, let's be real. When the ~82% nerf came down, the discussion immediately went to "Where can we find additional DPS so we don't have to HA?", with almost zero focus on actually making a HA rotation. Nobody wants it. Not in the end-game PVE community.

Kolzki

The synergy with off balance is a bit awkward. If I use a heavy attack rotation then I proc the set outside of off balance. It's better to run a light attack rotation and wait for one heavy attack during off balance to get the 70% HA damage buff. I think that makes it a set with an awkward proc condition rather than a heavy attack build set.