Clarification On Roaring Opportunist Change, Please

Skjaldbjorn

"Roaring Opportunist and Perfected Roaring Opportunist:

These sets now determine their duration based on the amount of damage done from the Heavy Attack that procced it, rather than a flat 10 second duration. The duration is determined by 1 second for every 8000 damage dealt, with a minimum of 5 seconds and a maximum of 12 seconds.
These sets no longer require you to Heavy Attack Off Balance targets. "

So....wait. Is this going to be 5s + 8k/sec up to 12s? Meaning a 56k heavy gives you 12s.

Or are you calculating this as 8k/sec literally the whole way, meaning you'd have to land an absurd 96k heavy for max uptime?

John_Falstaff

I think ZOS have just moved from "Alkosh v2.0" to a more modest variant - enforcing "one HA petsorc per mag group" meta.

And yes, I read it as 5s plus 1s for every 8k damage dealt by the heavy.

Skjaldbjorn

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I think ZOS have just moved from "Alkosh v2.0" to a more modest variant - enforcing "one HA petsorc per mag group" meta.

And yes, I read it as 5s plus 1s for every 8k damage dealt by the heavy.

I wouldn't get your hopes up for that lol

bharathitman

1. The offbalance requirement was removed mainly because they didn't go through with the LA/HA changes outlined in the off-cycle PTS. I guess this set was designed keeping those changes in mind
2. As many people pointed that this set will be shipped to a healer or an off tank, I guess they wanted to prevent an Alkosh like situation and make a DD actually wear this instead, so they are optimizing this set for Spell Damage. For what it's worth it, I think it is base 5 sec + (the actual damage number from the HA/8). And this would probably make it even more OP since you can proc this set on different ads easier

ShadeSlayer142

In addition to the original question, how does the proc damage requirement interact with lightning staff heavy attacks? Normally those heavy attacks deal less final damage because they hit 3 times vs. the normal 1 hit. Most Magsorc heavy attack builds (most prominent HA build), use lightning staves. If the proc didn't include all of these hits, it could artificially stunt one of the more common HA builds.

bharathitman

ShadeSlayer142 wrote: »

In addition to the original question, how does the proc damage requirement interact with lightning staff heavy attacks? Normally those heavy attacks deal less final damage because they hit 3 times vs. the normal 1 hit. Most Magsorc heavy attack builds (most prominent HA build), use lightning staves. If the proc didn't include all of these hits, it could artificially stunt one of the more common HA builds.

Ideally they would have taken this into account. Since the PTS will be up soon, it should be easily testable

trackdemon5512

I’m not sure but it sounds like they want it to be run more by multiple dps than healers and tanks with these changes. If the effects are cumulative than then small uptime from multiple group members adds up to more Major Slayer for everyone rather than having just a single player with the set.

Before it was more of a tank set with that solid 10 sec uptime and no damage amount requirement. Now it seems it will force multiple dps to run it to maximize uptime rather than a single.

Ratzkifal

All that means is that the healer running this set is also going to run Jorvulds and an inferno staff for more damage from fully charged heavy attacks (if minor vulnerability is already being provided). Also it makes Molten Armaments kind of useful since it buffs heavy attack damage.

ZOS, if you want DDs to run this set then change the spell penetration to spell critical and make the buff not apply to 11 members in the group but just yourself and change the proc condition to something that DDs are actually doing naturally instead of trying to force them to heavy attack.

Here, I'll help you:

When you deal critical damage, gain major slayer for up to X seconds depending on your critical strike chance with a minimum duration of Y seconds. This effect can only occur once every Z seconds.

No healer would want to run a set like that, but depending how close X and Z are together it would be juicy for damage dealers. Or just make it magicka Lokkestiiz. That would work too.

Olupajmibanan

ShadeSlayer142 wrote: »

In addition to the original question, how does the proc damage requirement interact with lightning staff heavy attacks? Normally those heavy attacks deal less final damage because they hit 3 times vs. the normal 1 hit. Most Magsorc heavy attack builds (most prominent HA build), use lightning staves. If the proc didn't include all of these hits, it could artificially stunt one of the more common HA builds.

It would be very lame if it not worked with whole lightning staff heavy attacks. You want to promote heavy attacking but without involving the most obvious heavy attack build? Please, ZoS, tell us that you are intelligent and thought of this in advance and it counts all ticks from lightning staff heavy attacks.

trackdemon5512

As I now see it Max uptime is achieved via a combination of Warhorn -> Colossi Drop -> Heavy Attack w/ any other damage buffs making it take advantage of when groups coordinate together to maximize damage at these opportune points. Outside of that the uptime is kept to a minimum. This helps to balance the set with others like Architect and Lokke to keep them viable.

It’s a coordinated ulti drop set rather than trying to keep major slayer up a ton on every player.

YandereGirlfriend

I honestly think that we are going to see some variant of the Light/Heavy Attack changes from the prior PTS stealth-inserted into this patch, either in Week 3 or Week 5.

When the developers get fixated on something they always see it through (Exhibit A: the DoT buff/nerf cycle from the summer), no matter how disastrous the change or how vehemently the community reacts against it.

Olupajmibanan

Do we know already if it calculates all ticks of lightning staff heavy attack or only the last one?

YoshinJaa

ATreeGnome

All this is going to do is make healers find ways to maximize their heavy attack damage. If ZOS wants to make heavy attack builds competitive they need to just buff heavy attacks, not this silly scheme to force players who don't want to do a heavy attack rotation to do a heavy attack rotation.

Excelsus

ATreeGnome wrote: »

All this is going to do is make healers find ways to maximize their heavy attack damage. If ZOS wants to make heavy attack builds competitive they need to just buff heavy attacks, not this silly scheme to force players who don't want to do a heavy attack rotation to do a heavy attack rotation.

Well. They did buff heavy attacks but people complained so they pushed back that change but it was unrealistic for them to rewrite every gear set that was planned for the change, only to undo that when the change is eventually pushed later this year. We're all going to be doing heavy attack rotations by the end of the year at any rate. All youre being asked to do now is one heavy attack every 12 seconds which isnt that bad.

SodanTok

ATreeGnome wrote: »

All this is going to do is make healers find ways to maximize their heavy attack damage. If ZOS wants to make heavy attack builds competitive they need to just buff heavy attacks, not this silly scheme to force players who don't want to do a heavy attack rotation to do a heavy attack rotation.

Cant you see it for what it is? DK healer buff

ATreeGnome

Excelsus wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

All this is going to do is make healers find ways to maximize their heavy attack damage. If ZOS wants to make heavy attack builds competitive they need to just buff heavy attacks, not this silly scheme to force players who don't want to do a heavy attack rotation to do a heavy attack rotation.

Well. They did buff heavy attacks but people complained so they pushed back that change but it was unrealistic for them to rewrite every gear set that was planned for the change, only to undo that when the change is eventually pushed later this year. We're all going to be doing heavy attack rotations by the end of the year at any rate. All youre being asked to do now is one heavy attack every 12 seconds which isnt that bad.

No one complained about the proposed buffs to heavy attacks. The changes they proposed would have affected negatively far more elements of the game than that and increased the skill gap. That's what people complained about.

T3hasiangod

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Do we know already if it calculates all ticks of lightning staff heavy attack or only the last one?

Only the final tick will count on Lightning/Resto heavy attacks.

robpr

Molten Armaments DKs
*stonks*

ATreeGnome

SodanTok wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

All this is going to do is make healers find ways to maximize their heavy attack damage. If ZOS wants to make heavy attack builds competitive they need to just buff heavy attacks, not this silly scheme to force players who don't want to do a heavy attack rotation to do a heavy attack rotation.

Cant you see it for what it is? DK healer buff

That's actually what I'm hoping comes out of this. I've been trying to get raid leads to let me DK heal for years now.

Marteene

There are very few instances where a 96k HA is achievable, I would love to see this set get a similar line to Infallible Aether where it gets a bonus to Heavy Attacks. Major Slayer is obviously a big reward but the wearer of this set will suffer a big DPS loss it would be cool to make them still feel like they’re contributing.

Altyrann

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Do we know already if it calculates all ticks of lightning staff heavy attack or only the last one?

Only the final tick will count on Lightning/Resto heavy attacks.

This really limits effectiveness of the set, along with the 8k / s starting at zero meaning it takes 40k just to get to the base duration.

T3hasiangod

Tested a few things on RO. Here are my thoughts.

1. You need to get 96k HA to hit the 12 second max. It was unclear whether it was 5 sec + 8k for each second after or 8k for each second with 5 sec minimum. It ended up being the latter, so healers will need to build for HA damage and time it with OB and Major Vuln to get that full 12 seconds. Otherwise, you're going to have to pair it with Jorvuld's to get reasonable uptime on it.
2. I tried out a magDK DPS build with Siroria and RO, maximizing CPs into Staff Expert, putting down Standard, debuffing with Engulfing, buffing with Molten, etc. I got only ~75k on my HA. I think if I had timed it with OB, I could have hit the 96k target. But it goes to show that you need to basically build as a HA DPS to maximize your uptime.
3. So because of 2, I think RO will end up being paired with Jorvuld's, and MK/Z'en will move to a magDK DPS instead, for magicka groups. Stamina groups are still going to run Lokke on their DPS and MK/Z'en on a healer. JG + RO gives you a minimum of 7 seconds uptime, with a possibility of 8 seconds if you can hit 48k on your HA ticks or 9 seconds with 56k ticks.
4. This doesn't change the composition for stamina groups, and mixed groups are just difficult to build around to begin with...

So the changes don't really change anything about incentivizing HA builds because those still suck. All it did was widen the skill gap (since you're gonna be timing it with OB and Major Vuln) and shift some sets around.

Shantu

I'm all for buffing the viability of HA builds in end game. But other than the group Major Slayer utility (which is nice), this set is unremarkable. In a trial setting, having the ability of buffing 12 group members may invite your token low damage HA build member. But outside of a trial, the overall damage it brings to a HA build is not very exciting. I could only manage to keep Major Slayer up about 20% doing nothing but heavy attacks. There are better pure HA damage builds.

While it's start, I still think buffing up the damage of HA's is a better direction.

kojou

I am just as unimpressed with this version as I was with the previous one.

Altyrann

As an obvious healer set it sort of made sense, albeit taking a DD set spot just as IA did.

As a DD set it makes no sense at all:

• There is almost no value to it if more than one DD brings it
• It's only really MAYBE relevant to one class in a DD setup
• It only really works with one of two damage focused staff types
• It provides a non-stacking buff that three other trial sets already provide more easily and more reliably

satanio

Shantu wrote: »

I'm all for buffing the viability of HA builds in end game. But other than the group Major Slayer utility (which is nice), this set is unremarkable. In a trial setting, having the ability of buffing 12 group members may invite your token low damage HA build member. But outside of a trial, the overall damage it brings to a HA build is not very exciting. I could only manage to keep Major Slayer up about 20% doing nothing but heavy attacks. There are better pure HA damage builds.

While it's start, I still think buffing up the damage of HA's is a better direction.

And bringing Empower to its pre-patched PTS state, buffing HA as well as LA, would help.

Altyrann

An alternative option - Magicka Tzogvin

• Allows access to a useful buff without wasting an ability slot and cast
• Provides a good front bar option which Mag is sorely lacking
• Useful for any Mag class
• Useful for as many Mag DDs as want to bring it to a run
• Really hard to turn into a tank/healer set
• Doesn't require trying to match a rotation to OB/vuln

Skjaldbjorn

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Tested a few things on RO. Here are my thoughts.

1. You need to get 96k HA to hit the 12 second max. It was unclear whether it was 5 sec + 8k for each second after or 8k for each second with 5 sec minimum. It ended up being the latter, so healers will need to build for HA damage and time it with OB and Major Vuln to get that full 12 seconds. Otherwise, you're going to have to pair it with Jorvuld's to get reasonable uptime on it.
2. I tried out a magDK DPS build with Siroria and RO, maximizing CPs into Staff Expert, putting down Standard, debuffing with Engulfing, buffing with Molten, etc. I got only ~75k on my HA. I think if I had timed it with OB, I could have hit the 96k target. But it goes to show that you need to basically build as a HA DPS to maximize your uptime.
3. So because of 2, I think RO will end up being paired with Jorvuld's, and MK/Z'en will move to a magDK DPS instead, for magicka groups. Stamina groups are still going to run Lokke on their DPS and MK/Z'en on a healer. JG + RO gives you a minimum of 7 seconds uptime, with a possibility of 8 seconds if you can hit 48k on your HA ticks or 9 seconds with 56k ticks.
4. This doesn't change the composition for stamina groups, and mixed groups are just difficult to build around to begin with...

So the changes don't really change anything about incentivizing HA builds because those still suck. All it did was widen the skill gap (since you're gonna be timing it with OB and Major Vuln) and shift some sets around.

Word, thanks bruh, always value your input/thoughts @T3hasiangod. So they basically killed it, which was my concern. Making the 1k/sec begin after the 5s minimum was a feasible if wonky change, but this is just nonsensical. It'd take so much effort, timing and planning to maximize this set it just fails to even be worth it. You'd get comparable uptimes with 2 Mag NBs prolly rofl

YandereGirlfriend

Altyrann wrote: »

An alternative option - Magicka Tzogvin

• Allows access to a useful buff without wasting an ability slot and cast
• Provides a good front bar option which Mag is sorely lacking
• Useful for any Mag class
• Useful for as many Mag DDs as want to bring it to a run
• Really hard to turn into a tank/healer set
• Doesn't require trying to match a rotation to OB/vuln

I think it's safe to say that basically the entire magDPS community wants a Magicka Tzogvin and/or Magicka Yokeda but for some reason or another we simply cannot have nice things.

Zalathorm

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Tested a few things on RO. Here are my thoughts.

1. You need to get 96k HA to hit the 12 second max. It was unclear whether it was 5 sec + 8k for each second after or 8k for each second with 5 sec minimum. It ended up being the latter, so healers will need to build for HA damage and time it with OB and Major Vuln to get that full 12 seconds. Otherwise, you're going to have to pair it with Jorvuld's to get reasonable uptime on it.
2. I tried out a magDK DPS build with Siroria and RO, maximizing CPs into Staff Expert, putting down Standard, debuffing with Engulfing, buffing with Molten, etc. I got only ~75k on my HA. I think if I had timed it with OB, I could have hit the 96k target. But it goes to show that you need to basically build as a HA DPS to maximize your uptime.
3. So because of 2, I think RO will end up being paired with Jorvuld's, and MK/Z'en will move to a magDK DPS instead, for magicka groups. Stamina groups are still going to run Lokke on their DPS and MK/Z'en on a healer. JG + RO gives you a minimum of 7 seconds uptime, with a possibility of 8 seconds if you can hit 48k on your HA ticks or 9 seconds with 56k ticks.
4. This doesn't change the composition for stamina groups, and mixed groups are just difficult to build around to begin with...

So the changes don't really change anything about incentivizing HA builds because those still suck. All it did was widen the skill gap (since you're gonna be timing it with OB and Major Vuln) and shift some sets around.

Word, thanks bruh, always value your input/thoughts @T3hasiangod. So they basically killed it, which was my concern. Making the 1k/sec begin after the 5s minimum was a feasible if wonky change, but this is just nonsensical. It'd take so much effort, timing and planning to maximize this set it just fails to even be worth it. You'd get comparable uptimes with 2 Mag NBs prolly rofl

Given the potential strength of vampire magblades, running a few MA is likely a lot better....