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Critical Resistance Gain is Fixed on 6.0.1, yet...
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MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Just jumped on! I have 50% crit resist and my roll dodge costs 1939 😂👏
PvP in Greymoore:
Thank god there are equally good magicka traits ... oh wait.
Bro, we have like, all the skills , abilities, and damage shields.
Just change your attack timing by half a second and start a combo right as they are 3/4 way through the Dodge, you'll land everything the moment the Dodge chance ends...
This is why most people can't hit rolly Polly's, they keep the same timing
Roll Dodge is the most effective defense mechanic of the game. It's only counter by undodgeable skills (which there's almost none) and AoE...
With shields you can block the damage but you still getting hit by all the debuffs of the attacks you are eating.
Its only counter is any aoe? What do you mean there arent undodgable skills? What game are you playing?
Is this game where Soul Assault was nerfed to oblivion?
So soul assault got nerfed (as it should) so therefore dodge doesnt have counters?
Wheres my counter for when people block and then healing with a 18k burst heal? Or i get them low and they throw on shields and heal up? Atleast there are ways to kill dodge rollers if you get them low, you can't do anything if someone decided to hold block and slam burst heals or stacks 2 shields like a sorc.
Dodge Roll has no upper limit, shields and heals do.
Shields and Heals require a global cooldown, dodge roll can be used in animation canceling.
2 Shields give you like 20k protection and require 2 global cooldowns and cost about 7k to 8k magicka. A dodge roll can get you more mitigation in a single cooldown while being at half that cost while animation canceling.
Dodge Roll is by far the most potent mitigation tool in the game. And it get's special treatment in armor traits, CPs, and lag.
A mag toon can cast those shields, then go on the offensive while still being protected by them.
A stam toon cannot cast any abilities while being protected by dodge roll.“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”0 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Just jumped on! I have 50% crit resist and my roll dodge costs 1939 😂👏
PvP in Greymoore:
Thank god there are equally good magicka traits ... oh wait.
Bro, we have like, all the skills , abilities, and damage shields.
Just change your attack timing by half a second and start a combo right as they are 3/4 way through the Dodge, you'll land everything the moment the Dodge chance ends...
This is why most people can't hit rolly Polly's, they keep the same timing
Roll Dodge is the most effective defense mechanic of the game. It's only counter by undodgeable skills (which there's almost none) and AoE...
With shields you can block the damage but you still getting hit by all the debuffs of the attacks you are eating.
Its only counter is any aoe? What do you mean there arent undodgable skills? What game are you playing?
Is this game where Soul Assault was nerfed to oblivion?
So soul assault got nerfed (as it should) so therefore dodge doesnt have counters?
Wheres my counter for when people block and then healing with a 18k burst heal? Or i get them low and they throw on shields and heal up? Atleast there are ways to kill dodge rollers if you get them low, you can't do anything if someone decided to hold block and slam burst heals or stacks 2 shields like a sorc.
Dodge Roll has no upper limit, shields and heals do.
Shields and Heals require a global cooldown, dodge roll can be used in animation canceling.
2 Shields give you like 20k protection and require 2 global cooldowns and cost about 7k to 8k magicka. A dodge roll can get you more mitigation in a single cooldown while being at half that cost while animation canceling.
Dodge Roll is by far the most potent mitigation tool in the game. And it get's special treatment in armor traits, CPs, and lag.
A mag toon can cast those shields, then go on the offensive while still being protected by them.
A stam toon cannot cast any abilities while being protected by dodge roll.
Yes you can, b/c the dodge roll protection lasts longer than the actual animation. And combined with the great mobility of stamina builds you can keep cost relatively low despite the dodge roll fatigue. Besides, the HoTs and other heals you get allow you to not have to dodge constantly but go on the offensive too.
As for shields / Heals, oftentimes you cannot go on the offensive b/c you have to recast the shield / heal right away since the incoming damage was greater or close to the size of the shield / heal. An issue that dodge rollers don't have.
And to the guy complaining about block:
1) Shields don't get you out of execute range. At 20% HP chances are you will get executed through your shield.
2) Have you ever heard of block casting? 90% damage reduction and still dealing damage or healing. Sure you can stun the guy and give you 1 global cooldown to attack him without block, but that arguement can also be made for stunning a sorc before they put up their shield or a NB before they cloak. However, there are far fewer stuns being able to actually incapacitate a blocking target than there are stuns that incapacitate a target about to shield, heal, or cloak up!3 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Just jumped on! I have 50% crit resist and my roll dodge costs 1939 😂👏
PvP in Greymoore:
Thank god there are equally good magicka traits ... oh wait.
Bro, we have like, all the skills , abilities, and damage shields.
Just change your attack timing by half a second and start a combo right as they are 3/4 way through the Dodge, you'll land everything the moment the Dodge chance ends...
This is why most people can't hit rolly Polly's, they keep the same timing
Roll Dodge is the most effective defense mechanic of the game. It's only counter by undodgeable skills (which there's almost none) and AoE...
With shields you can block the damage but you still getting hit by all the debuffs of the attacks you are eating.
Its only counter is any aoe? What do you mean there arent undodgable skills? What game are you playing?
Is this game where Soul Assault was nerfed to oblivion?
So soul assault got nerfed (as it should) so therefore dodge doesnt have counters?
Wheres my counter for when people block and then healing with a 18k burst heal? Or i get them low and they throw on shields and heal up? Atleast there are ways to kill dodge rollers if you get them low, you can't do anything if someone decided to hold block and slam burst heals or stacks 2 shields like a sorc.
Dodge Roll has no upper limit, shields and heals do.
Shields and Heals require a global cooldown, dodge roll can be used in animation canceling.
2 Shields give you like 20k protection and require 2 global cooldowns and cost about 7k to 8k magicka. A dodge roll can get you more mitigation in a single cooldown while being at half that cost while animation canceling.
Dodge Roll is by far the most potent mitigation tool in the game. And it get's special treatment in armor traits, CPs, and lag.
A mag toon can cast those shields, then go on the offensive while still being protected by them.
A stam toon cannot cast any abilities while being protected by dodge roll.
Yes you can, b/c the dodge roll protection lasts longer than the actual animation. And combined with the great mobility of stamina builds you can keep cost relatively low despite the dodge roll fatigue. Besides, the HoTs and other heals you get allow you to not have to dodge constantly but go on the offensive too.
As for shields / Heals, oftentimes you cannot go on the offensive b/c you have to recast the shield / heal right away since the incoming damage was greater or close to the size of the shield / heal. An issue that dodge rollers don't have.
And to the guy complaining about block:
1) Shields don't get you out of execute range. At 20% HP chances are you will get executed through your shield.
2) Have you ever heard of block casting? 90% damage reduction and still dealing damage or healing. Sure you can stun the guy and give you 1 global cooldown to attack him without block, but that arguement can also be made for stunning a sorc before they put up their shield or a NB before they cloak. However, there are far fewer stuns being able to actually incapacitate a blocking target than there are stuns that incapacitate a target about to shield, heal, or cloak up!
Your picking and choosing your reply's to bolster you arguement.
Magicka also has Hots, you always only state stamina this and stamina that when it applies to both.
Shields protect you for 6s, magicka ALSO has hots that allow them go on the offensive with shields as well. Get the idea that dodge rollers take 0 dmg when rolling out of your head, its so easy to counter rolling, so many things go through it and its not too hard to just get the timing to where you hit them as soon as they come out of it.
You won't get executed through your shield unless there is like 6 ppl on you, in which case even if you roll you'll die. I've seen plently of mag classes live through dmg that stamina wouldnt.
Yes i heard of block casting? Magicka is the worst for it. You either instant gib a mag templar for example or he gives himself 70% dmg reduction (its not 90 lmao) and then starts throwing 15k breath out. Same applies or mag warden, necro, sorc, dk.
PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
AMeanOne✭✭✭✭✭Shields are doo doo. Any decent stam setup melts through a shield with one la-skill. I've seen some magsorcs have some sturdy shields still, but they didn't do much damage at all.5
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leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Shields are doo doo. Any decent stam setup melts through a shield with one la-skill. I've seen some magsorcs have some sturdy shields still, but they didn't do much damage at all.
What? Thats just not true unless your running like 25k magicka.
Mag sorc have their shields combined with high dmg. Its not that mag sorc dont have high dmg its that everyone some stupid tank this patch.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »Just jumped on! I have 50% crit resist and my roll dodge costs 1939 😂👏
PvP in Greymoore:
Fat cat, must be nightblade.Edited by universal_wrath on May 1, 2020 8:39AM0 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭Shields are doo doo. Any decent stam setup melts through a shield with one la-skill. I've seen some magsorcs have some sturdy shields still, but they didn't do much damage at all.
Still garntee dmg mitigation though, I can't count the number of times I died mid dodge rolling because I was being streaked at, foasilized, leaped at, fears, blastboned...etc. if I can garnteed dmg reduction of atleast 1 skill, it is enough for me to recover, but it is RNG for me due to my ping. Many skills I should have dodged hit me and also many I thought would hit I dodge as well. This doesn't happen with shields.MurderMostFoul wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Just jumped on! I have 50% crit resist and my roll dodge costs 1939 😂👏
PvP in Greymoore:
Thank god there are equally good magicka traits ... oh wait.
Bro, we have like, all the skills , abilities, and damage shields.
Just change your attack timing by half a second and start a combo right as they are 3/4 way through the Dodge, you'll land everything the moment the Dodge chance ends...
This is why most people can't hit rolly Polly's, they keep the same timing
Roll Dodge is the most effective defense mechanic of the game. It's only counter by undodgeable skills (which there's almost none) and AoE...
With shields you can block the damage but you still getting hit by all the debuffs of the attacks you are eating.
Its only counter is any aoe? What do you mean there arent undodgable skills? What game are you playing?
Is this game where Soul Assault was nerfed to oblivion?
So soul assault got nerfed (as it should) so therefore dodge doesnt have counters?
Wheres my counter for when people block and then healing with a 18k burst heal? Or i get them low and they throw on shields and heal up? Atleast there are ways to kill dodge rollers if you get them low, you can't do anything if someone decided to hold block and slam burst heals or stacks 2 shields like a sorc.
Dodge Roll has no upper limit, shields and heals do.
Shields and Heals require a global cooldown, dodge roll can be used in animation canceling.
2 Shields give you like 20k protection and require 2 global cooldowns and cost about 7k to 8k magicka. A dodge roll can get you more mitigation in a single cooldown while being at half that cost while animation canceling.
Dodge Roll is by far the most potent mitigation tool in the game. And it get's special treatment in armor traits, CPs, and lag.
A mag toon can cast those shields, then go on the offensive while still being protected by them.
A stam toon cannot cast any abilities while being protected by dodge roll.
Yes you can, b/c the dodge roll protection lasts longer than the actual animation. And combined with the great mobility of stamina builds you can keep cost relatively low despite the dodge roll fatigue. Besides, the HoTs and other heals you get allow you to not have to dodge constantly but go on the offensive too.
As for shields / Heals, oftentimes you cannot go on the offensive b/c you have to recast the shield / heal right away since the incoming damage was greater or close to the size of the shield / heal. An issue that dodge rollers don't have.
And to the guy complaining about block:
1) Shields don't get you out of execute range. At 20% HP chances are you will get executed through your shield.
2) Have you ever heard of block casting? 90% damage reduction and still dealing damage or healing. Sure you can stun the guy and give you 1 global cooldown to attack him without block, but that arguement can also be made for stunning a sorc before they put up their shield or a NB before they cloak. However, there are far fewer stuns being able to actually incapacitate a blocking target than there are stuns that incapacitate a target about to shield, heal, or cloak up!
I should point out that while stam specs can redce dodge roll cost via well fetted armor trait, but it only works on dodge roll and sprint. Magicka specs can also use nirned and renforced armor traits to max out their resistance and the strength of their dmg shields. Magicka specs can lower the cost of all there migcka abilities via jewelry glyphs ,and amplify it by infused, which include shields casting. They can also pair it will block cost reduction to block cast their shields for more effectivness. Stamina dodge roll is only limited to well fitted armor traits. You can try to included CP, but while it make dodge roll cheaper, it makes shield stronger as well.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The problems with crit resist on pts and utilizing other traits consists of multiple issues:
Impen is still worth too much compared to other traits. Well fitted and Sturdy can come close depending on build - but overall impen still offers the best value out of all traits for most builds.
Then the total value of seven pieces of impen was only reduced by 602 on pts. Which means zos effectively raised crit resistance for anyone who doesn´t bother to change their setup due to various reasons (refarming/crafting upgrade or retrait cost etc) by 748 impen.
This means people could use 3 different traited items to maintain their old impenetrable values. But would they? Apart from the already discussed effort to actually change traits on gear. The benefit of high(er) critical resistance is actually immense.
A hindsight for this should be the impregnable armor set - which offered a lot of impenetrable stat and yet it´s most popular gear trait was?
You guessed it - impenetrable.
What happens on pts with base impen and impen from traits is exactly the same thing as happened with impregnable armor imo.
Reducing critdmg to irrelevant damage gains means eliminating burst. Burst is what kills in pvp. The incentive to actually use other traits outside of builds that already did that is from my perspective VERY low to near nonexistant (when factoring the other gearing factors).
How could ZOS solve this?
They need to look at armor traits:
Impenetrable => still better than anything else from a pvp pov (imo it even gained value for a full stack)
Sturdy => Already used niche trait (will be stacked higher on builds that already utilized it)
Well fitted => Same as sturdy (+might see some extra use on builds)
Divines => super niche ganking trait (nothing really changes regarding usability - current users get extra defense)
Infused => not worth it compared to top 3 on big pieces, absolutely useless on small pieces
nirnhoned, reinforced, invigorating => just no
training => different use scenario
The takeaway for me would be:
Reduce impen further to about 136 per piece in gold.
Sturdy fine as is.
Well fitted maybe reduce by 0.5 to 1% for gold (same values as sturdy).
Divines needs adjustments to offer comparable defense/sustain/dmg gains.
Infused and glyphs need some rework (slight buff for the trait and standardize glyph values for all item pieces while keeping same total stats)
Invigorating, Reinforced and Nirnhoned need to give comparable value to the top 3 traits (nirnhoned currently fills the same role as reinforced - i´d rework it to give wpd spd on armor pieces and fill niche as an offensive trait).
Edited by Derra on May 1, 2020 9:37AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 504 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Don't forget the new "Mythic" ring. If that goes live as-is and gains much popularity, the Impenetrable trait's value will tank pretty hard. Many people may consider it "enough" to have the baseline crit resistance, and perhaps a couple Impen slots, with the rest being Well-Fitted or Sturdy (especially for Stam builds).Impen is still worth too much compared to other traits. Well fitted and Sturdy can come close depending on build - but overall impen still offers the best value out of all traits for most builds.
Also...those posters who are talking up shields, and how good they supposedly are, have obviously not played Magicka builds (especially non-Sorc) in no-CP anytime remotely recently. 'Course, you don't have to actually play a Magicka setup personally to see how incredibly rare shields are among decent players nowadays. Some Sorcerers will still use them (maybe ~30% of the decent-or-better ones?), but literally no one else does. I can't remember the last time I saw a Magicka Templar, Warden, Nightblade, or DK use Dampen Magic or Harness Magicka, and I've literally never seen a Magicka Necromancer use a damage shield in PvP (because shields became garbage before the class was released). For that matter, Magicka Sorcerers don't really use the shield from Light Armor, either.
Maybe things are different in CP-Enabled Cyrodiil, but in BGs shields simply don't exist for non-Sorcerers (and, as I said above, even many/most of the better Sorcerers don't use them). Magicka-based HOTs can also be quite unreliable, and most definitely cannot be compared to Stamina HOTs for self-healing; the "smart" targeting in ESO PvP is absolutely godawful.3 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Don't forget the new "Mythic" ring. If that goes live as-is and gains much popularity, the Impenetrable trait's value will tank pretty hard. Many people may consider it "enough" to have the baseline crit resistance, and perhaps a couple Impen slots, with the rest being Well-Fitted or Sturdy (especially for Stam builds).Impen is still worth too much compared to other traits. Well fitted and Sturdy can come close depending on build - but overall impen still offers the best value out of all traits for most builds.
Yes i made my post while having malacath in mind and no i do not agree with you that it devalues impenetrable as a stat very much (the reasoning being the bolded part in this post):
Malacath and Impen are two problems at the very opposite sites of the spectrum currently on pts - ironically they both devalue crit and critdmg as stats.
Everything i wrote still holds true vs any build utilizing crit and since not the whole population will run malacath due to it being hard to fit in some builds and/or the difficulty/time investment of getting it in the first place
Even when malacath became extremely popular i would still put points into crit resistance and run atleast 4 impenetrable armor pieces on most builds i play - because the cost of opportunity of running impenetrable is very low while having huge impact versus critical dmg builds (this is due to impen still being very effective and other traits being weak - esp offensive trait choices being virtually a nonfactor so having a build that can neither block nor dodge excessively has indeed no trait choice at all still).Edited by Derra on May 1, 2020 2:20PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Just jumped on! I have 50% crit resist and my roll dodge costs 1939 😂👏
PvP in Greymoore:
Thank god there are equally good magicka traits ... oh wait.
Bro, we have like, all the skills , abilities, and damage shields.
Just change your attack timing by half a second and start a combo right as they are 3/4 way through the Dodge, you'll land everything the moment the Dodge chance ends...
This is why most people can't hit rolly Polly's, they keep the same timing
Roll Dodge is the most effective defense mechanic of the game. It's only counter by undodgeable skills (which there's almost none) and AoE...
With shields you can block the damage but you still getting hit by all the debuffs of the attacks you are eating.
Its only counter is any aoe? What do you mean there arent undodgable skills? What game are you playing?
Is this game where Soul Assault was nerfed to oblivion?
So soul assault got nerfed (as it should) so therefore dodge doesnt have counters?
Wheres my counter for when people block and then healing with a 18k burst heal? Or i get them low and they throw on shields and heal up? Atleast there are ways to kill dodge rollers if you get them low, you can't do anything if someone decided to hold block and slam burst heals or stacks 2 shields like a sorc.
Dodge Roll has no upper limit, shields and heals do.
Shields and Heals require a global cooldown, dodge roll can be used in animation canceling.
2 Shields give you like 20k protection and require 2 global cooldowns and cost about 7k to 8k magicka. A dodge roll can get you more mitigation in a single cooldown while being at half that cost while animation canceling.
Dodge Roll is by far the most potent mitigation tool in the game. And it get's special treatment in armor traits, CPs, and lag.
A mag toon can cast those shields, then go on the offensive while still being protected by them.
A stam toon cannot cast any abilities while being protected by dodge roll.
Yes you can, b/c the dodge roll protection lasts longer than the actual animation. And combined with the great mobility of stamina builds you can keep cost relatively low despite the dodge roll fatigue. Besides, the HoTs and other heals you get allow you to not have to dodge constantly but go on the offensive too.
As for shields / Heals, oftentimes you cannot go on the offensive b/c you have to recast the shield / heal right away since the incoming damage was greater or close to the size of the shield / heal. An issue that dodge rollers don't have.
And to the guy complaining about block:
1) Shields don't get you out of execute range. At 20% HP chances are you will get executed through your shield.
2) Have you ever heard of block casting? 90% damage reduction and still dealing damage or healing. Sure you can stun the guy and give you 1 global cooldown to attack him without block, but that arguement can also be made for stunning a sorc before they put up their shield or a NB before they cloak. However, there are far fewer stuns being able to actually incapacitate a blocking target than there are stuns that incapacitate a target about to shield, heal, or cloak up!
Your picking and choosing your reply's to bolster you arguement.
Magicka also has Hots, you always only state stamina this and stamina that when it applies to both.
Shields protect you for 6s, magicka ALSO has hots that allow them go on the offensive with shields as well. Get the idea that dodge rollers take 0 dmg when rolling out of your head, its so easy to counter rolling, so many things go through it and its not too hard to just get the timing to where you hit them as soon as they come out of it.
You won't get executed through your shield unless there is like 6 ppl on you, in which case even if you roll you'll die. I've seen plently of mag classes live through dmg that stamina wouldnt.
Yes i heard of block casting? Magicka is the worst for it. You either instant gib a mag templar for example or he gives himself 70% dmg reduction (its not 90 lmao) and then starts throwing 15k breath out. Same applies or mag warden, necro, sorc, dk.
The difference is that a healing build (which is much superior to any shield build) can stack weapon/spell damage which again is quite superior to magicka when it comes to damage. A shield build however needs a certain amount of magicka to even get these shields to a workable size. You need to split your stats. That of course costs damage.
Stamina builds do not have to make this choice. Just put everything into weapon damage and have all your survival boosted. Healing scales alot better with weapon/spell damage than it does with magicka/stamina. Your example with magicka burst heals is true.
But a templar giving himself a 15k heal is superior to a mage giving himself a 15k ward (and nobody has that) Because health is more valueable than a shield, because you can block on health for example. And in CP there is shattering blows... a big reason why shields are absolutely bad unless you play a survive sustain bot like most sorcerers do that do nothing but stacking shields on their sword and shield bar while standing inside ball of lightning without ever making a single offensive move.
At least stamina builds are unaffected by ball of lightning and should be able to kill those sorcerers.Edited by Dracane on May 1, 2020 2:08PMAuri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos2 -
lucky_Sage✭✭✭✭✭People said the same thing up till Stan got overhauledDC PC NA
Magdk - main
Stamcro - alt
AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
magdk
magblade
stamplar
magden
magsorc0 -
Chelo✭✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Just jumped on! I have 50% crit resist and my roll dodge costs 1939 😂👏
PvP in Greymoore:
Thank god there are equally good magicka traits ... oh wait.
Bro, we have like, all the skills , abilities, and damage shields.
Just change your attack timing by half a second and start a combo right as they are 3/4 way through the Dodge, you'll land everything the moment the Dodge chance ends...
This is why most people can't hit rolly Polly's, they keep the same timing
Roll Dodge is the most effective defense mechanic of the game. It's only counter by undodgeable skills (which there's almost none) and AoE...
With shields you can block the damage but you still getting hit by all the debuffs of the attacks you are eating.
Its only counter is any aoe? What do you mean there arent undodgable skills? What game are you playing?
Is this game where Soul Assault was nerfed to oblivion?
So soul assault got nerfed (as it should) so therefore dodge doesnt have counters?
Wheres my counter for when people block and then healing with a 18k burst heal? Or i get them low and they throw on shields and heal up? Atleast there are ways to kill dodge rollers if you get them low, you can't do anything if someone decided to hold block and slam burst heals or stacks 2 shields like a sorc.
Last time I checked, everyone have access to fear now, so there's no perma block. Also defile counters healing...0 -
Chelo✭✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Just jumped on! I have 50% crit resist and my roll dodge costs 1939 😂👏
PvP in Greymoore:
Thank god there are equally good magicka traits ... oh wait.
Bro, we have like, all the skills , abilities, and damage shields.
Just change your attack timing by half a second and start a combo right as they are 3/4 way through the Dodge, you'll land everything the moment the Dodge chance ends...
This is why most people can't hit rolly Polly's, they keep the same timing
Roll Dodge is the most effective defense mechanic of the game. It's only counter by undodgeable skills (which there's almost none) and AoE...
With shields you can block the damage but you still getting hit by all the debuffs of the attacks you are eating.
Its only counter is any aoe? What do you mean there arent undodgable skills? What game are you playing?
Is this game where Soul Assault was nerfed to oblivion?
So soul assault got nerfed (as it should) so therefore dodge doesnt have counters?
Wheres my counter for when people block and then healing with a 18k burst heal? Or i get them low and they throw on shields and heal up? Atleast there are ways to kill dodge rollers if you get them low, you can't do anything if someone decided to hold block and slam burst heals or stacks 2 shields like a sorc.
Dodge Roll has no upper limit, shields and heals do.
Shields and Heals require a global cooldown, dodge roll can be used in animation canceling.
2 Shields give you like 20k protection and require 2 global cooldowns and cost about 7k to 8k magicka. A dodge roll can get you more mitigation in a single cooldown while being at half that cost while animation canceling.
Dodge Roll is by far the most potent mitigation tool in the game. And it get's special treatment in armor traits, CPs, and lag.
Roll dodge has increasing costs, Do shields and heals?
Sure shields costs resources but it protects you from everything so if your at 20% hp and get a shield up you're free to heal out is danger range.
If you do that with blockt there's so many ways that you'll still die. If I roll at 40% heal someone can easily kill me. If they time it right as I come up to attack it'll hit, if they use an aoe it'll hit, lots of executes will go through roll like fury and beam.
If you spam shields, you still getting hit by all the debuffs, eventually you will be out dps by the enemy (unless he is not doing the necessary dmg to keep the pressure).0 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭universal_wrath wrote: »I should point out that while stam specs can redce dodge roll cost via well fetted armor trait, but it only works on dodge roll and sprint. Magicka specs can also use nirned and renforced armor traits to max out their resistance and the strength of their dmg shields. Magicka specs can lower the cost of all there migcka abilities via jewelry glyphs ,and amplify it by infused, which include shields casting. They can also pair it will block cost reduction to block cast their shields for more effectivness. Stamina dodge roll is only limited to well fitted armor traits. You can try to included CP, but while it make dodge roll cheaper, it makes shield stronger as well.
First of all:
The jewelry enchantment reducing stamina cost ALSO REDUCED COST OF DODGE ROLL! So stamina builds got the same benefits from jewelry enchantments as magicka builds. With one major difference: Magicka builds utilizing shields cannot afford to give up on the max magicka trait to boost the cost reduction with an infused trait. Stam builds can, b/c they don't have to invest anything into the actual strength of the dodge roll. Mag builds also lose some strength of their heals when they give up Arcane for Infused. It's just not as detirmental since heals also scale with spell damage (and oftentimes even better than with max magicka).
So Stam builds got everything magicka builds get from jewelry enchantments, if not more. But they also get Well-fitted and Sturdy traits for the armor. Sounds really balanced and fair.
Second:
If maxing out resistences was so good, stam builds would opt for it instead of dodge rolling. Besides, with all the penetration around and the new set taking another 11k or so away, you are pretty much naked in your Light Armor even if you go full Nirnhoned. Reinforced is even worse on Light Armor given that it is %-based.
Finally:
You do realize that blocking while a shield is active is stupid unless you try to block a stun. Shields don't benefit from block but your stamina gets drained nonetheless!1 -
lucky_Sage✭✭✭✭✭The problems with crit resist on pts and utilizing other traits consists of multiple issues:
Impen is still worth too much compared to other traits. Well fitted and Sturdy can come close depending on build - but overall impen still offers the best value out of all traits for most builds.
Then the total value of seven pieces of impen was only reduced by 602 on pts. Which means zos effectively raised crit resistance for anyone who doesn´t bother to change their setup due to various reasons (refarming/crafting upgrade or retrait cost etc) by 748 impen.
This means people could use 3 different traited items to maintain their old impenetrable values. But would they? Apart from the already discussed effort to actually change traits on gear. The benefit of high(er) critical resistance is actually immense.
A hindsight for this should be the impregnable armor set - which offered a lot of impenetrable stat and yet it´s most popular gear trait was?
You guessed it - impenetrable.
What happens on pts with base impen and impen from traits is exactly the same thing as happened with impregnable armor imo.
Reducing critdmg to irrelevant damage gains means eliminating burst. Burst is what kills in pvp. The incentive to actually use other traits outside of builds that already did that is from my perspective VERY low to near nonexistant (when factoring the other gearing factors).
How could ZOS solve this?
They need to look at armor traits:
Impenetrable => still better than anything else from a pvp pov (imo it even gained value for a full stack)
Sturdy => Already used niche trait (will be stacked higher on builds that already utilized it)
Well fitted => Same as sturdy (+might see some extra use on builds)
Divines => super niche ganking trait (nothing really changes regarding usability - current users get extra defense)
Infused => not worth it compared to top 3 on big pieces, absolutely useless on small pieces
nirnhoned, reinforced, invigorating => just no
training => different use scenario
The takeaway for me would be:
Reduce impen further to about 136 per piece in gold.
Sturdy fine as is.
Well fitted maybe reduce by 0.5 to 1% for gold (same values as sturdy).
Divines needs adjustments to offer comparable defense/sustain/dmg gains.
Infused and glyphs need some rework (slight buff for the trait and standardize glyph values for all item pieces while keeping same total stats)
Invigorating, Reinforced and Nirnhoned need to give comparable value to the top 3 traits (nirnhoned currently fills the same role as reinforced - i´d rework it to give wpd spd on armor pieces and fill niche as an offensive trait).
For invigorating to ever be thought about being used needs to be Atleast doubles in value
Nirn needs a rework should be a some different maybe for mag specifically or maybe a dmg trait
I can see reinforced being a niche heavy armor build but doubt itDC PC NA
Magdk - main
Stamcro - alt
AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
magdk
magblade
stamplar
magden
magsorc0 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »IMO they should have made it 903 base critical resistance and 129 per piece of impen. Live value wouldn't change, at 7 impen you would have 1806 crit resist. But if you decide to swap some or all of your impen traits for something, you won't be as vulnerable as now.
Yes, this is exactly what I have been saying, and what I had assumed they were going to do — it just makes sense.
How silly of me to think ZOS would choose the logical route.Edited by Langeston on May 2, 2020 7:31AM0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Invigorating, infused and nirnhoned especially needs to get buffed or preferably a complete rework to compete.
I (and everyone else) will gain alot of critical resistance to their build for free and for me personally I wont change much gearwise, I just see it as an opportunity to shift like 40 cp from crit resist to something else like healing or direct defence and i will still have 3-400 more impenetrable score after patch. I wont traitchange anything because as Derra said earlier in the thread, there arent any traits to compete with impen trait atm. Thats all.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
Sarousse✭✭✭✭✭
✭This change will only result in a buff of overall tankyness instead of reducing it on CP campaigns.
As a PvPer, stacking 4k crit resistance is pure awesomeness.Edited by Sarousse on May 2, 2020 2:00PM0 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is a good direction, but - in the usual ZOS fashion - the execution is rather lacking, and leaves much to be desired.
Even with the new Impen changes, the Impen trait is still too strong and overshadows most of the other traits.
Or, turning the problem around, the other traits are too weak to be a viable alternative to Impen in most situations.
Since the new base crit resist results in even higher total resistance with 7x Impen (not good), PTS Impen trait should be further nerfed so that 7x Impen gives the same total resistance as it does on Live. That would be a reasonable starting point.
From there, the undeperforming traits should be adjusted:
Well-fitted and Sturdy are in a fairly good place now, leave them as they are - or even nerf Well-Fitted slightly.
Divines and Infused are mostly fine, maybe a slight buff is in order there (esp. Infused).
All the other traits (except for Training) should be either significantly buffed and/or completely reworked, since they are mathematically weak and not a viable choice outside of some extremely niche builds.0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This change will only result in a buff of overall tankyness instead of reducing it on CP campaigns.
As a PvPer, stacking 4k crit resistance is pure awesomeness.
Depends, players can respond with the 25% damage ring and negate your investment, but otherwise bad patch to be a khajiit. Great patch for Nords...their racial is almost better than Bloodspawn.
Oddly, I think this will be the support build patch, and the changes will overall make a support build dishing out heals, purges, buffs, transmutation even more impactful in multiplayer encounters.1 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Yeah - and it will probably continue to be the case, as long as crossheals are not nerfed (ie. diminishing results on heal stacking from allies) and while Purge still continues to be the hard carry tool in mid-to-large groups.This change will only result in a buff of overall tankyness instead of reducing it on CP campaigns.
As a PvPer, stacking 4k crit resistance is pure awesomeness.
Depends, players can respond with the 25% damage ring and negate your investment, but otherwise bad patch to be a khajiit. Great patch for Nords...their racial is almost better than Bloodspawn.
Oddly, I think this will be the support build patch, and the changes will overall make a support build dishing out heals, purges, buffs, transmutation even more impactful in multiplayer encounters.
Of course all of this is wholle meaningless with the game in its current state, where casting an ability in PvP takes 5 seconds and 20 button presses.0 -
Casul✭✭✭✭✭
✭And I'm sitting here with 7 divines cause I'm too lazy to farm multiple monster sets.PvP needs more love.0
