What About Bow and Armor!!!

TheHsN

Dear Zos,

You nerfed all armor and resistance builds. What about now Bow builds that hits like a crazy with Poison injection and Lethal Arrow that hits 8k to 12k. How you make people to counter-play to those high damages that comes from a distance and sometimes you even cant see where from? Armor and Resistance were helping before now it almost instant kill... I tried in PTS and it is huge damage in come...

kalunte

well, bow spamming isnt any better than other ways of spam from long range. beside that Asylum bow is tweaked so you dont have +50% dmg on next snipe/magnumshot/pi but a flat 6600 armor pen for all bow abilities for 10s. 6600 armor = 10% dmg, if your target have still armor left, it can be less than a 10% dmg increase.

also, snipe has travel time, can be kicked and dodged.

last but not least, if you build squishy and spend half your time chasing butterfly, you'll probably die to a snipe.


ps: dsync isnt bow-only related, move forward.

Greek_Hellspawn

kalunte wrote: »

well, bow spamming isnt any better than other ways of spam from long range. beside that Asylum bow is tweaked so you dont have +50% dmg on next snipe/magnumshot/pi but a flat 6600 armor pen for all bow abilities for 10s. 6600 armor = 10% dmg, if your target have still armor left, it can be less than a 10% dmg increase.

also, snipe has travel time, can be kicked and dodged.

last but not least, if you build squishy and spend half your time chasing butterfly, you'll probably die to a snipe.


ps: dsync isnt bow-only related, move forward.

Found the sniper 😆😆

kalunte

both sniper and nightblade, so that i know kinda well about being always called for irrelevent nerfs, tweaks and whatever while other skills/classes outbeat bow/nb ability but are "fine"

RandomKodiak

I don't PvP much but do main a bow/bow stamsorc. I fully understand how much and why bows are hated in Cyro but please stop trying to get an entire weapon line killed for one skill. I promise if the devs would listen and remove snipe for a good other spammable none of the PvE bow mains would argue. Please until then or you can come up with a viable solution that doesn't completely kill bow for those of us not sniping you in Cyro quit asking for my main toon to die. Also as posted above desyncs are not just bows so maybe just add to the many threads about that instead of asking for bows to be even further nerfed than they already are as the worst weapon damage in the game.

Juhasow

kalunte wrote: »

well, bow spamming isnt any better than other ways of spam from long range. beside that Asylum bow is tweaked so you dont have +50% dmg on next snipe/magnumshot/pi but a flat 6600 armor pen for all bow abilities for 10s. 6600 armor = 10% dmg, if your target have still armor left, it can be less than a 10% dmg increase.

also, snipe has travel time, can be kicked and dodged.

last but not least, if you build squishy and spend half your time chasing butterfly, you'll probably die to a snipe.


ps: dsync isnt bow-only related, move forward.

Bow spamming is way better then other ways of spamming from long range. It's the longest range , the hardest hitting spammable ability. Rarely any sniper or snipe ganker relies on Asylum bow these days so Your point about AS bow nerf is irrelevant.

Travel time on snipe is its biggest adventage not weakness because combined with cast time it allows to register 2-3 abilities hits on enemy within ~1 second. Every single target direct damage ability can be dodged , I don't see how it's suddenly any argument for snipe defense.

You don;t have to build super squishy as a sipe spammer. It's something people choose to do , to squeeze bit more damage rather then something they're forced to because since they'll heavily rely on sitting in hide and avoiding any type of open combat , they don't need defensive stats that much. And yes they can die. Who would've thought. I would rather argue though that they can die way less often then some other setups with way more defensive stats that do not have comfort of spending most of the time hidden. You can kill what You can't see.

ps. Desync is mostly bow related. Snipe is an ability almost designed to desync. All the other range abilities in the game combined together are responsible for less desyncs then snipe alone.

MurderMostFoul

kalunte wrote: »

ps: dsync isnt bow-only related, move forward.

Yes, but snipe, due to its long range/travel time and high damage, is by far the worst offender.

Irfind

It dosn't really matter atm ? I mean you see and hear 1 dizzy and react - dogeroll or block .... nope i am dead (4 dizzys in recap)

And thats not only in cyro but in bgs too, sometimes 3-5 sek delay.

So before demand nerfs to anything fix this lagy servers first, please ???

MartiniDaniels

Don't be over-confident and you won't die to snipe. Wherever I died to snipe de-sync it was when I ignored them thinking that it is another shoot and run zergling and that I can shrug off those snipes with single roll-dodge and bit of healing. NO. If you hear snipe go on defensive (block/mist/wings/shimmering/LOS whatever) or be prepared that guy with bow could be a glass cannon with huge WD, penetration and crossbow.

kalunte

Juhasow wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

well, bow spamming isnt any better than other ways of spam from long range. beside that Asylum bow is tweaked so you dont have +50% dmg on next snipe/magnumshot/pi but a flat 6600 armor pen for all bow abilities for 10s. 6600 armor = 10% dmg, if your target have still armor left, it can be less than a 10% dmg increase.

also, snipe has travel time, can be kicked and dodged.

last but not least, if you build squishy and spend half your time chasing butterfly, you'll probably die to a snipe.


ps: dsync isnt bow-only related, move forward.

Bow spamming is way better then other ways of spamming from long range. It's the longest range , the hardest hitting spammable ability. Rarely any sniper or snipe ganker relies on Asylum bow these days so Your point about AS bow nerf is irrelevant.

Travel time on snipe is its biggest adventage not weakness because combined with cast time it allows to register 2-3 abilities hits on enemy within ~1 second. Every single target direct damage ability can be dodged , I don't see how it's suddenly any argument for snipe defense.

You don;t have to build super squishy as a sipe spammer. It's something people choose to do , to squeeze bit more damage rather then something they're forced to because since they'll heavily rely on sitting in hide and avoiding any type of open combat , they don't need defensive stats that much. And yes they can die. Who would've thought. I would rather argue though that they can die way less often then some other setups with way more defensive stats that do not have comfort of spending most of the time hidden. You can kill what You can't see.

ps. Desync is mostly bow related. Snipe is an ability almost designed to desync. All the other range abilities in the game combined together are responsible for less desyncs then snipe alone.

ok bro, just test it on a dummy then. snipe's cast time + travel times makes it heavily dodgeable because the game registers those mecanisms really bad and so that you can be dodged by someone who were dodging at the time the arrow lands but also when you where casting it, same goes for nightblade delayed ults, shards, clauurion and spectral bow that are frequently cryed about.
but sure bow is the issue, snipe is SOOOOO [snip] op in terms of dps that bows are TOP1pve dps and so on. ppl just love to hate, i'll pass on this topic tho.

[edited for profanity]

MurderMostFoul

kalunte wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

well, bow spamming isnt any better than other ways of spam from long range. beside that Asylum bow is tweaked so you dont have +50% dmg on next snipe/magnumshot/pi but a flat 6600 armor pen for all bow abilities for 10s. 6600 armor = 10% dmg, if your target have still armor left, it can be less than a 10% dmg increase.

also, snipe has travel time, can be kicked and dodged.

last but not least, if you build squishy and spend half your time chasing butterfly, you'll probably die to a snipe.


ps: dsync isnt bow-only related, move forward.

Bow spamming is way better then other ways of spamming from long range. It's the longest range , the hardest hitting spammable ability. Rarely any sniper or snipe ganker relies on Asylum bow these days so Your point about AS bow nerf is irrelevant.

Travel time on snipe is its biggest adventage not weakness because combined with cast time it allows to register 2-3 abilities hits on enemy within ~1 second. Every single target direct damage ability can be dodged , I don't see how it's suddenly any argument for snipe defense.

You don;t have to build super squishy as a sipe spammer. It's something people choose to do , to squeeze bit more damage rather then something they're forced to because since they'll heavily rely on sitting in hide and avoiding any type of open combat , they don't need defensive stats that much. And yes they can die. Who would've thought. I would rather argue though that they can die way less often then some other setups with way more defensive stats that do not have comfort of spending most of the time hidden. You can kill what You can't see.

ps. Desync is mostly bow related. Snipe is an ability almost designed to desync. All the other range abilities in the game combined together are responsible for less desyncs then snipe alone.

ok bro, just test it on a dummy then. snipe's cast time + travel times makes it heavily dodgeable because the game registers those mecanisms really bad and so that you can be dodged by someone who were dodging at the time the arrow lands but also when you where casting it, same goes for nightblade delayed ults, shards, clauurion and spectral bow that are frequently cryed about.
but sure bow is the issue, snipe is SOOOOO [snip] op in terms of dps that bows are TOP1pve dps and so on. ppl just love to hate, i'll pass on this topic tho.

[edited for profanity]

No one is complaining about snipe in PVE, it creates problems in PvP though.

Ratzkifal

Well, snipe currently isn't a problem in PvP. You just need to learn to deal with it. Time your dodges right, use your shield ultimate to reflect snipe at the enemy etc.

But with the nerfs to defensive sets, it might become a problem... Still, that's the price you pay for getting rid of the tank meta. So pick your poison.

khajiitNPC

Lol @Ratzkifal “...snipe currently isn’t a problem in Pvp.” Good one. Snipe has the biggest desync because of how it works under the hood. Yes there are desyncs with other abilities, but Snipe isn’t working as intended, if it were, it wouldn’t be an issue. But with the desync it is horrid. How you can defend it, is ridiculous AF. Must play a tank that doesn’t do much but zerg, turtle, and ultidump.

MurderMostFoul

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Well, snipe currently isn't a problem in PvP. You just need to learn to deal with it. Time your dodges right, use your shield ultimate to reflect snipe at the enemy etc.

But with the nerfs to defensive sets, it might become a problem... Still, that's the price you pay for getting rid of the tank meta. So pick your poison.

Snipe, by itself, isn't a problem. Snipe+desync+build made to exploit snipe desync is. Fix the desync, and all the snipe exploitation builds go away.

Atherakhia

So what's the suggestion then?

What if they changed it to a 'triple shot' channel ability instead of a 1 second cast time?

Let fly several arrows dealing the same damage over 1 second as opposed to a single, snipe shot. PvE damage will not be changed (likely increased in fact due to set synergy like deadly) and would be a lot easier to defend against in PvP as channeled abilities are much easier to defend against.

This patch changed channeled abilities breaking stealth immediately on cast as opposed to at the time of damage right? I think I saw a thread complaining as much due to heavy attacks breaking stealth?

This change seems like it would be a win win for all camps.

MartiniDaniels

Atherakhia wrote: »

So what's the suggestion then?

What if they changed it to a 'triple shot' channel ability instead of a 1 second cast time?

Let fly several arrows dealing the same damage over 1 second as opposed to a single, snipe shot. PvE damage will not be changed (likely increased in fact due to set synergy like deadly) and would be a lot easier to defend against in PvP as channeled abilities are much easier to defend against.

This patch changed channeled abilities breaking stealth immediately on cast as opposed to at the time of damage right? I think I saw a thread complaining as much due to heavy attacks breaking stealth?

This change seems like it would be a win win for all camps.

This is actually great idea. It will also pierce shimmering shield in one cast and imo now shimmering shield is main reason why non-gank bow builds are meh.

MurderMostFoul

Atherakhia wrote: »

So what's the suggestion then?

What if they changed it to a 'triple shot' channel ability instead of a 1 second cast time?

Let fly several arrows dealing the same damage over 1 second as opposed to a single, snipe shot. PvE damage will not be changed (likely increased in fact due to set synergy like deadly) and would be a lot easier to defend against in PvP as channeled abilities are much easier to defend against.

This patch changed channeled abilities breaking stealth immediately on cast as opposed to at the time of damage right? I think I saw a thread complaining as much due to heavy attacks breaking stealth?

This change seems like it would be a win win for all camps.

That could work.

Or how about they keep everything the same except make it short ranged (22m, gap closer range?), and give it zero travel time. It pretty much doesn't change anything for PVE, and in PvP, the desyncs related to the shots' travel time will be eliminated and players trying to spam it will be in danger having to be at closer range. But there will be the slight buff of having damage register immediately after completing the channel. Given a range reduction, they would have to rename the skill, maybe Overdrawn Shot.

They could even make a morph that function significantly differently that goes back to the original range snipe. Maybe, long range, no channel/instant cast, projectile travel time retained, and much lower damage.

LeHarrt91

And this is why I love Crystalised Slab (Warden Skill), they Snipe me and get a snowball to the face.

biminirwb17_ESO

Remember Agincourt

OWLTHEMAD

I think bow overperforms just a bit on the damage end with ganking.

However, this is kind of the fantasy/identity behind using a bow.

I think it shouldnt be able to completely kill someone rocking full heavy armor though.

I think you should be forced to get up close for that. Ganker or otherwise.

I think it should be more specialised towards killing those in medium or light armor.

Its basic logic, in the real world a bow isnt going to punch through full plate armor.

GRXRG

kalunte wrote: »

well, bow spamming isnt any better than other ways of spam from long range. beside that Asylum bow is tweaked so you dont have +50% dmg on next snipe/magnumshot/pi but a flat 6600 armor pen for all bow abilities for 10s. 6600 armor = 10% dmg, if your target have still armor left, it can be less than a 10% dmg increase.

also, snipe has travel time, can be kicked and dodged.

last but not least, if you build squishy and spend half your time chasing butterfly, you'll probably die to a snipe.


ps: dsync isnt bow-only related, move forward.

If i build squishy you say? I get hit by damn 8-9k snipes even building at 33k resists cap and use mitigations and heals up all the time.

"dsync isnt bow-only related, move forward"

Snipe is the only skill that i watch death recap and see 4 of without barely ever see 1 come at me.
Not to mention with this absurd lag i got it by hit even middle roll dodge and snipe was the final death skill.

There are people who are able to glitch and exploit the skill to make it desync 100% of the times.

If they cannot fix desync just reduce damage by 75%, so even if desyncs who cares, people will stop using it and we will have one less skill that desyncs.

Afetr that we see what others are causing problems.

Marcus_Thracius

lets see - another sniper nerf demand
Wonder how that will go.....

biminirwb17_ESO

Lethal Arrow is kinda Lethal.

"Deals Poison Damage and applies the poison status effect. Also applies Major Defile to the enemy, reducing their healing received."

It is also buffed by:

Mighty - Increases Damage
Precise Strikes - Increases Critical Damage
Piercing - Increases Physical Penetration
Master-At-Arms - Increases Damage
Shattering Blows - Increases Damage against Damage Shields
Befoul- It increases the effectiveness of healing reduction abilities by [x]%

So 33k resists is pretty irrelevant, you would be better off swapping some out for more health if you die too often.

MurderMostFoul

Marcus_Thracius wrote: »

lets see - another sniper nerf demand
Wonder how that will go.....

They don't need to Nerf it, they either need to fix the desyncs or rework it so snipe can't be used to exploit the desyncs.

biminirwb17_ESO

How can a player see if another players client is showing a de-sync? They can't, so exploiting is impossible.

JobooAGS

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

I think bow overperforms just a bit on the damage end with ganking.

However, this is kind of the fantasy/identity behind using a bow.

I think it shouldnt be able to completely kill someone rocking full heavy armor though.

I think you should be forced to get up close for that. Ganker or otherwise.

I think it should be more specialised towards killing those in medium or light armor.

Its basic logic, in the real world a bow isnt going to punch through full plate armor.

A breast plate or many helmets, you have a point. Everything else, rip

Marcus_Thracius

Let me try to recall how many times i died to those op desync snipers in the last year ...hmmm
2 times just because my cc break didnt work - wonder why eh ZoS
Other than that - its all about awareness - thats it

MurderMostFoul

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

How can a player see if another players client is showing a de-sync? They can't, so exploiting is impossible.

It doesn't matter what the exploiter sees. The exploiter has a high probability of desyncing their target. The exploiter benefits from this when the target takes damage from 3 Snipes simultaneously.

cheemers

Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

well, bow spamming isnt any better than other ways of spam from long range. beside that Asylum bow is tweaked so you dont have +50% dmg on next snipe/magnumshot/pi but a flat 6600 armor pen for all bow abilities for 10s. 6600 armor = 10% dmg, if your target have still armor left, it can be less than a 10% dmg increase.

also, snipe has travel time, can be kicked and dodged.

last but not least, if you build squishy and spend half your time chasing butterfly, you'll probably die to a snipe.


ps: dsync isnt bow-only related, move forward.

Found the sniper 😆😆

Greek I saw what you were doing with Snipe in BGs the other day.. Don't think you're in any position to call out snipers haha!

Irfind

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

Lethal Arrow is kinda Lethal.

"Deals Poison Damage and applies the poison status effect. Also applies Major Defile Minor Defile to the enemy, reducing their healing received."

Fixed it for you Major Defile is for Necro

Greek_Hellspawn

cheemers wrote: »

Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

well, bow spamming isnt any better than other ways of spam from long range. beside that Asylum bow is tweaked so you dont have +50% dmg on next snipe/magnumshot/pi but a flat 6600 armor pen for all bow abilities for 10s. 6600 armor = 10% dmg, if your target have still armor left, it can be less than a 10% dmg increase.

also, snipe has travel time, can be kicked and dodged.

last but not least, if you build squishy and spend half your time chasing butterfly, you'll probably die to a snipe.


ps: dsync isnt bow-only related, move forward.

Found the sniper 😆😆

Greek I saw what you were doing with Snipe in BGs the other day.. Don't think you're in any position to call out snipers haha!

Lmao true 😂😂. I was playing with snipe a bit and this is why i totally agree to nerf this play style, its just low risk because you can snipe people from 40m away and high reward because it hits pretty damn hard. This is by far the easiest and most safe playstyle i have ever played and the damage is actually not so much lower vs dizzy spam so something must be done. In my opinion it needs either lower damage or reduced range.