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Why make vAS staff useless?
Zalathorm
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ZOS -
Do you have to nerf this into oblivion?
Will it be better to have no one use this?
How does this help build diversity?
There are two ways forward:
1. Stick with your nerf. No one will use the staff. No one will farm vAS +2 for the staff (vAS has been really busy lately). MagDKs will fall off the radar and people will play something else instead.
2. Revert to the proc occuring every 2 casts. Make the normal version of the staff the same. Keep your condition proc fix and keep the nerf from 10s to 5s to get proc stacks. These latter two nerfs are likely enough to tone down magDKs (plus the elf bane nerf not working with zaan).
Reasons to keep the vAS staff good and usable
1. It increases build diversity and keeps magDKs alive (they were rare in PVE before this last patch)
2. vAS +2 is HARD compared to the other arena weapons (vMA, vDSA, vBRP)
3. It is a front bar staff which has a high opportunity cost (you cant wear 5/5/monster set). I doubt your power equations considered this fact.
4. Nerfing to every 3 casts will kill it. The normal version on live, with 3 casts, hasn't been used since it was created. Why go back to this state?
Edited by Zalathorm on April 22, 2020 2:27PM Do you have to nerf this into oblivion?
Will it be better to have no one use this?
How does this help build diversity?
There are two ways forward:
1. Stick with your nerf. No one will use the staff. No one will farm vAS +2 for the staff (vAS has been really busy lately). MagDKs will fall off the radar and people will play something else instead.
2. Revert to the proc occuring every 2 casts. Make the normal version of the staff the same. Keep your condition proc fix and keep the nerf from 10s to 5s to get proc stacks. These latter two nerfs are likely enough to tone down magDKs (plus the elf bane nerf not working with zaan).
Reasons to keep the vAS staff good and usable
1. It increases build diversity and keeps magDKs alive (they were rare in PVE before this last patch)
2. vAS +2 is HARD compared to the other arena weapons (vMA, vDSA, vBRP)
3. It is a front bar staff which has a high opportunity cost (you cant wear 5/5/monster set). I doubt your power equations considered this fact.
4. Nerfing to every 3 casts will kill it. The normal version on live, with 3 casts, hasn't been used since it was created. Why go back to this state?
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Blynjubitr✭✭✭Well, let's say it won't overperform anymore. Besides only class who could actually overperform with it was MagDK.2
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kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I did some testing yesterday... you are better off running pretty much any monster set now on DK. It needs to be every 2 Force Pulses, or it is not worth it.Playing since beta...0 -
Hooded_1✭✭✭I think it would be better if they changed both the nAS staff and the vAS staff to every other cast. That way new players can have an opportunity to grab something useful for their magDK’s, vet players get to keep using what they already farmed, and the perf. Version gives you a small buff to DPS. This will make everyone happy1 -
carlos424✭✭✭✭✭This change was obviously only geared at nerfing DK’s. But I would argue that there are other ways to do this besides killing off one of the nicest weapons in the game. They already nerfed zaan with elf bane, which is a good start. Maybe consider decreasing elf bane to 4 seconds rather than 5. The nerf to zaan with elf bane, as well as the asylum staff, is overkill.Edited by carlos424 on April 22, 2020 2:17PM1
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Zalathorm✭✭✭✭I think it would be better if they changed both the nAS staff and the vAS staff to every other cast. That way new players can have an opportunity to grab something useful for their magDK’s, vet players get to keep using what they already farmed, and the perf. Version gives you a small buff to DPS. This will make everyone happy
Yeah magDKs needed to be toned down a little. Note: A Little. This would put them in line with other magDPS instead of rivaling the top stam classes.
However, these changes will ensure that magDK is no longer played at all in end game. Why is this a good thing? Please revert!Edited by Zalathorm on April 22, 2020 2:29PM0 -
Hooded_1✭✭✭I think it would be better if they changed both the nAS staff and the vAS staff to every other cast. That way new players can have an opportunity to grab something useful for their magDK’s, vet players get to keep using what they already farmed, and the perf. Version gives you a small buff to DPS. This will make everyone happy
Yeah magDKs needed to be toned down a little. Note: A Little. This would put them in line with other magDPS instead of rivaling the top stam classes.
However, these changes will ensure that magDK is no longer played at all in end game. Why is this a good thing? Please revert!
I would argue that it’s okay if magDK’s rival stamDPS because they’re a melee role which makes positioning harder. The reason most mag DPS is generally lower than stam is because raid positioning is easier with magicka DPS being ranged.3 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think it would be better if they changed both the nAS staff and the vAS staff to every other cast. That way new players can have an opportunity to grab something useful for their magDK’s, vet players get to keep using what they already farmed, and the perf. Version gives you a small buff to DPS. This will make everyone happy
Yeah magDKs needed to be toned down a little. Note: A Little. This would put them in line with other magDPS instead of rivaling the top stam classes.
However, these changes will ensure that magDK is no longer played at all in end game. Why is this a good thing? Please revert!
I would argue that it’s okay if magDK’s rival stamDPS because they’re a melee role which makes positioning harder. The reason most mag DPS is generally lower than stam is because raid positioning is easier with magicka DPS being ranged.
MagDK definitely needs to be able to compete with other melee classes regardless of being stamina or magicka. MagDK occupies melee slot and you have limited spots for melee characters. What would be the reason to pick magDK over stamnecro let's say? There is none and was the biggest problem of magDK for couple of patches until AS inferno became a thing on magDK.
As destro needs to go back to every 2nd cast.
Also, prior discussion is ongoing here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/522445/asylum-destro-staff-change#latest2 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The staff is incredibly potent as-is and is probably due for a nerf.
I would prefer they keep the 2x cast but reduce the internal timer of FPs to 3 seconds. That alone would reduce the procs by a significant amount whilst keeping the overall potential of the weapon intact.0331
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Thicclady✭✭✭The nerf is healthy. Because in no MMO this kind of advantage would go for long. You lose maybe really what, 2k dps when taking account extra 100 spellpower from staff.
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Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The nerf is healthy. Because in no MMO this kind of advantage would go for long. You lose maybe really what, 2k dps when taking account extra 100 spellpower from staff.
If you nerf a set and it goes from actualy usable state to deconstruct material only, that kind of nerf is anything but healthy.
Even one of the class reps named the new asylum destro a "deconstruct material" on his stream.Edited by Olupajmibanan on April 22, 2020 7:17PM4 -
Thicclady✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »The nerf is healthy. Because in no MMO this kind of advantage would go for long. You lose maybe really what, 2k dps when taking account extra 100 spellpower from staff.
If you nerf a set and it goes from actualy usable state to deconstruct material only, that kind of nerf is anything but healthy.
Even one of the class reps named the new asylum destro a "deconstruct material" on his stream.
Class reps are not gods, they are same kind of players than us. I just said that dps goes down maybe 2k, if you add 100 spell damage, and also the bar swap bug repaired to equation.
Just compare the burning times you get on both, it changes maybe 10% lower i would think.0 -
Danksta✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »The nerf is healthy. Because in no MMO this kind of advantage would go for long. You lose maybe really what, 2k dps when taking account extra 100 spellpower from staff.
If you nerf a set and it goes from actualy usable state to deconstruct material only, that kind of nerf is anything but healthy.
Even one of the class reps named the new asylum destro a "deconstruct material" on his stream.
Class reps are not gods, they are same kind of players than us. I just said that dps goes down maybe 2k, if you add 100 spell damage, and also the bar swap bug repaired to equation.
Just compare the burning times you get on both, it changes maybe 10% lower i would think.
They also fixed the burning proc bug associated with the staff. The fixes should've been enough. On live I recall hearing the difference from prefected to non perfected was over 5k.
This staff is associated with mag dks but I'd venture to guess it was also strong (if not bis) for magdens so this nerf might bury the bottom feeder of dps even further. If the intent was to nerf mag dks they could revert the changes to elf bane or maybe just directly nerf mag dks.BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA3 -
carlos424✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »The nerf is healthy. Because in no MMO this kind of advantage would go for long. You lose maybe really what, 2k dps when taking account extra 100 spellpower from staff.
If you nerf a set and it goes from actualy usable state to deconstruct material only, that kind of nerf is anything but healthy.
Even one of the class reps named the new asylum destro a "deconstruct material" on his stream.
Class reps are not gods, they are same kind of players than us. I just said that dps goes down maybe 2k, if you add 100 spell damage, and also the bar swap bug repaired to equation.
Just compare the burning times you get on both, it changes maybe 10% lower i would think.
They also fixed the burning proc bug associated with the staff. The fixes should've been enough. On live I recall hearing the difference from prefected to non perfected was over 5k.
This staff is associated with mag dks but I'd venture to guess it was also strong (if not bis) for magdens so this nerf might bury the bottom feeder of dps even further. If the intent was to nerf mag dks they could revert the changes to elf bane or maybe just directly nerf mag dks.
It’s a good 4-5k dps loss, and with the other fixes, and nerf to zaan with elfbane, you can probably look at another 4-5k dps loss for magdk’s. This basically puts magdks back at the bottom of mag dps.1 -
T3hasiangod✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »The nerf is healthy. Because in no MMO this kind of advantage would go for long. You lose maybe really what, 2k dps when taking account extra 100 spellpower from staff.
If you nerf a set and it goes from actualy usable state to deconstruct material only, that kind of nerf is anything but healthy.
Even one of the class reps named the new asylum destro a "deconstruct material" on his stream.
Class reps are not gods, they are same kind of players than us. I just said that dps goes down maybe 2k, if you add 100 spell damage, and also the bar swap bug repaired to equation.
Just compare the burning times you get on both, it changes maybe 10% lower i would think.
"i would think"
This means you have not actually tested this.
I have.
The new Perfected Asylum staff is so much worse than how it is on live. You don't lose just 2k DPS. You're losing about 10k+ DPS. I was pulling 8k less DPS using an Asylum set-up compared to a 5/5/2 set-up.
It's not just dead. They executed it.Edited by T3hasiangod on April 22, 2020 8:48PM5 -
llBlack_Heartll✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »The staff is incredibly potent as-is and is probably due for a nerf.
I would prefer they keep the 2x cast but reduce the internal timer of FPs to 3 seconds. That alone would reduce the procs by a significant amount whilst keeping the overall potential of the weapon intact.
You need to remember that, this weapons is also front barred, to it needs to be worth slotting over a monster set. Hence why it needs to be stronger than most Weapons that are back bar slotted.
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Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »The nerf is healthy. Because in no MMO this kind of advantage would go for long. You lose maybe really what, 2k dps when taking account extra 100 spellpower from staff.
If you nerf a set and it goes from actualy usable state to deconstruct material only, that kind of nerf is anything but healthy.
Even one of the class reps named the new asylum destro a "deconstruct material" on his stream.
Class reps are not gods, they are same kind of players than us. I just said that dps goes down maybe 2k, if you add 100 spell damage, and also the bar swap bug repaired to equation.
Just compare the burning times you get on both, it changes maybe 10% lower i would think.
Word from a class rep about AS staff going into evergrowing bag of useless decon-only stuff is much more than word of some random "expert" putting here numbers taken from top of his head.
If you test it yourself, the dps difference between live and PTS is way much bigger than plain 2k. My observations are around 10k dps loss on target attro.Edited by Olupajmibanan on April 22, 2020 8:59PM3 -
Zalathorm✭✭✭✭T3hasiangod wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »The nerf is healthy. Because in no MMO this kind of advantage would go for long. You lose maybe really what, 2k dps when taking account extra 100 spellpower from staff.
If you nerf a set and it goes from actualy usable state to deconstruct material only, that kind of nerf is anything but healthy.
Even one of the class reps named the new asylum destro a "deconstruct material" on his stream.
Class reps are not gods, they are same kind of players than us. I just said that dps goes down maybe 2k, if you add 100 spell damage, and also the bar swap bug repaired to equation.
Just compare the burning times you get on both, it changes maybe 10% lower i would think.
"i would think"
This means you have not actually tested this.
I have.
The new Perfected Asylum staff is so much worse than how it is on live. You don't lose just 2k DPS. You're losing about 10k+ DPS. I was pulling 8k less DPS using an Asylum set-up compared to a 5/5/2 set-up.
It's not just dead. They executed it.
@T3hasiangod - In your opinion, how much would the staff have been toned down with just the reduction from 10s to 5s for stacks, as well as fixing the excess procs of burning it was getting? Probably hard to get a fixed number but do you have a general impression?0 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭T3hasiangod wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »The nerf is healthy. Because in no MMO this kind of advantage would go for long. You lose maybe really what, 2k dps when taking account extra 100 spellpower from staff.
If you nerf a set and it goes from actualy usable state to deconstruct material only, that kind of nerf is anything but healthy.
Even one of the class reps named the new asylum destro a "deconstruct material" on his stream.
Class reps are not gods, they are same kind of players than us. I just said that dps goes down maybe 2k, if you add 100 spell damage, and also the bar swap bug repaired to equation.
Just compare the burning times you get on both, it changes maybe 10% lower i would think.
"i would think"
This means you have not actually tested this.
I have.
The new Perfected Asylum staff is so much worse than how it is on live. You don't lose just 2k DPS. You're losing about 10k+ DPS. I was pulling 8k less DPS using an Asylum set-up compared to a 5/5/2 set-up.
It's not just dead. They executed it.
My testing showed the same reduction in DPS, so I am with you here.
I will say the amount of DPS and sustain that you get on live with this staff is a bit broken, but what they have on PTS is a straight DPS loss vs pretty much any other option. IMO they should have started by just fixing the bug that allowed the burning procs to stack to crazy levels and standardized on the current perfected staff, then make adjustments as needed per player testing.
Instead we get the typical nerf into oblivion...
Playing since beta...0 -
Urvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭The conversation here is mostly talking about PvE dps, but the perfected staff was also great to use in PvP, but completely unusable with the 3 cast non perfected version.0 -
BadShogun✭✭✭They nerfed it because too many noobs complained about being blown up in battlegrounds by glass cannon magDKs using p.Asylum staff0
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Nicalas✭✭✭I couldn’t even sustain a rotation with the pts version while using ghastly. I mag’d out one minute in every time. I even cut two dots and still couldn’t sustain. I tried smaller rotations, replacing with cheaper skills and still couldn’t sustain. I went charged and couldn’t sustain. The perfected bonuses as a whole need to be buffed or reverted and forgotten about. Nobody is gonna run vet content for a 103 spell damage bonus or backbar spell pen. It simply does not offer any reward for the time invested.1
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Zalathorm✭✭✭✭I couldn’t even sustain a rotation with the pts version while using ghastly. I mag’d out one minute in every time. I even cut two dots and still couldn’t sustain. I tried smaller rotations, replacing with cheaper skills and still couldn’t sustain. I went charged and couldn’t sustain. The perfected bonuses as a whole need to be buffed or reverted and forgotten about. Nobody is gonna run vet content for a 103 spell damage bonus or backbar spell pen. It simply does not offer any reward for the time invested.
Yeah it doesn't make any sense that something as hard as vAS 2 drops essentially an equivalent item as normal AS 0.
This isn't vMA or vDSA... A hardmode vet trial has to mean something2