Stuhn's Favor a bit much

Giljabrar

Title says it all. This is the set I'm referencing.

Stuhn’s Favor
2 – Adds 129 Weapon Damage
2 – Adds 129 Spell Damage
3 – Adds 1487 Physical Penetration
3 – Adds 1487 Spell Penetration
4 – Adds 129 Weapon Damage
4 – Adds 129 Spell Damage
5 – Increases your Physical and Spell Penetration by 13355 against Off-Balance enemies.

While I love what the set does, and what it says to the meta, but it's a bit overturned. That is way too much penetration, even if it's tied to off balance.

I think the set should retain some of its strength, but a 25-35% nerf to the 5 piece seems within reason.

I've fought a few different classes with the setup on the PTS. Magplar, scary af. Stamcro, scary af. Mag/Stamblade, scary af.

You get hit with off balance, and you need to roll to stay alive. This is actually harder to fight than onslaught. At least then you had time between ultimates. But with this set as is, I think it's pretty unhealthy (at this state). I believe it should 100% retain strength and be an effective set. But I believe that can be accomplished at a lower threshold. Anybody in light armor is gonna be taking true damage, as well as most setups in general with the loss of armor to a lot of 1 piece monster sets.

Great set, love the concept. It's a bit much.

Anybody else have some experience either using or fighting this?

wheem_ESO

This set, if it goes live as-is, is going to further widen the gap between Stamina and Magicka classes in PvP. Every decent Stamina build has super easy access to triggering off-balance, and will be totally negating the resists of basically every magicka build they target. Even those players who specifically try to build some extra resists into their setup will get annihilated. The only methods to survive will be dodge roll, block, or mobility; all 3 of which "belong" to Stam (except for mobility and Mag Sorc).

Penetration is one thing, but this is way over the top, especially since it's tied to a mechanic that generally benefits Stamina so much more than Magicka. Being able to hit you with an on-demand and off-GCD stun on top of it is just extra amounts of stupid.

Exactly what they should do with this set, I can't say. But it needs to be decoupled from off-balance, and literally nothing in the game should provide that level of penetration.

Giljabrar

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Being able to hit you with an on-demand and off-GCD stun on top of it is just extra amounts of stupid.

What do you mean by off-GCD stun? As in Med/Heavy weaving to stun? Just confused by the wording is all.

Nerftheforums

Templars will be scary af with this new set on.

Aliyavana

you can never have too much penetration

wheem_ESO

Giljabrar wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Being able to hit you with an on-demand and off-GCD stun on top of it is just extra amounts of stupid.

What do you mean by off-GCD stun? As in Med/Heavy weaving to stun? Just confused by the wording is all.

Correct, I was referring to weaving in a "medium" attack for the stun. Being off-GCD (global cooldown) and still on-demand, is too good just by itself. When coupled with this set offering a total of nearly 15k penetration at the same time, it's way too much.

Davadin

13k pen is a tad more than my 2H maul medium build. i run around in Gray Host with 11k, that gives me 16% penetration.

so this set will DOUBLE it as long as I can land just 1 Dizzying Swing?

wut?

this set is crazy.

Qbiken

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Templars will be scary af with this new set on.

Templar will be far from the worse offenders. Stamcro and stamden are the ones you should worry about.

I personally find the set to be fine, onslaught is still and will be a thing in next patch, you'll still have a 66% downtime on this set with how offbalance cooldown works.

wheem_ESO

Qbiken wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Templars will be scary af with this new set on.

Templar will be far from the worse offenders. Stamcro and stamden are the ones you should worry about.

I personally find the set to be fine, onslaught is still and will be a thing in next patch, you'll still have a 66% downtime on this set with how offbalance cooldown works.

Who cares about the downtime when you'll be able to obliterate lots of targets within the 7 seconds worth of off-balance? By the time they respawn and get back into combat, you'll be able to destroy them all over again.

Maybe this set won't be utterly stupid in CP-PvP (I don't play CP-enabled at all), but in BGs it's going to be really dumb if it goes live as-is.

Mortiis13

This set (u also get 10% more dmg against off balance via cp) + onslaught and u can literally negate someone's resistance for 12 sec..

Off balance. Not dead? Follow Onslaught after that. Not dead? Wait 10 sec and repeat.

ZonasArch

For 7 seconds on a target, you'll be a BEAST and for 15 after that, you're gimping yourself off a 5 item set bonus. I see nothing wrong with it. Only very small fights last 7 seconds, so for the most part this set will be preventing the player from being any kind of efficient in fights that aren't zerg steamrolls, or 1v1 against non-tanky builds.

What PvP content you know that can get solved in 7 seconds and nothing will happen again for 15s after that? This set is extremely situational and gank friendly, but that's about it. Once pros realize they are rendering themselves useless trash for 66% of their time in most PvP content, they will drop this set like it's the garbage that off balance is right now.

And before you say "but I can make the next target off balance right after I get the first" don't delude yourself. Everyone sets everyone else off balance so often with dizzy swing META and similar stuff, that you can basically assume everyone around d you will be on off balance cooldown too. WAY too many 2h dizzy swing spammers in any sort of group you run, even organized ones.

Joinovikova

Qbiken wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Templars will be scary af with this new set on.

Templar will be far from the worse offenders. Stamcro and stamden are the ones you should worry about.

I personally find the set to be fine, onslaught is still and will be a thing in next patch, you'll still have a 66% downtime on this set with how offbalance cooldown works.

mag plar can stack elemental drain and topping chardge from distance. one combo 100% kill confirmed no counterplay ...

ZonasArch

Joinovikova wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Templars will be scary af with this new set on.

Templar will be far from the worse offenders. Stamcro and stamden are the ones you should worry about.

I personally find the set to be fine, onslaught is still and will be a thing in next patch, you'll still have a 66% downtime on this set with how offbalance cooldown works.

mag plar can stack elemental drain and topping chardge from distance. one combo 100% kill confirmed no counterplay ...

Roll dodge, block, rune focus (since everyone is a that these days), shields, self heals in between, "oh crap! I'm in trouble!" monster sets(Lord warden maybe?)... There are lots of to bring up survivability, and they should all be used all the time against any opponent, kinda.

You cannot expect to be sitting there doing nothing and have a proc set it whatever that does the counter play for you. This is just penetration, it doesn't snare, doesn't stun, doesn't drain resources, doesn't reduce healing or shields... Even saying "no counter play" sounds silly. It's like saying there's no counter play to that guy with 6k weapon damage. Ever heard of blocking?

Moonsorrow

People wanted the "tank meta" to end. Now enjoy it.

I`m lovin it.

Yiko

Qbiken wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Templars will be scary af with this new set on.

Templar will be far from the worse offenders. Stamcro and stamden are the ones you should worry about.

I personally find the set to be fine, onslaught is still and will be a thing in next patch, you'll still have a 66% downtime on this set with how offbalance cooldown works.

You mentioned downtime in the other thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6720247/#Comment_6720247
@Qbiken
The set's buff isn't tied to you, is it? It applies to the target who is off-balanced. If you swap targets, you can keep 100% uptime on the set. The only time it has 33% downtime is if you stick to 1 target specifically, yeah?

Magplar/stamplar will be extremely oppressive/effective with this set:
Purifying Light/POTL lasts 6 seconds, Toppling Charge activates off balance and stuns the target, off balance lasts for 7s, throw in Crescent Sweep + Jabs, collect AP.
At 3 Ult gen / second and with Dawn's Wrath 5% cost reduction + passive ult gen, Crescent Sweep will be up at least every 22s for burst on a priority target.
Even at 33% uptime, this set will be vastly overperforming.

This set straight up gives too many stats.
Also, combined with Malacath, any Stam/Mag char can run ANY variant of any ult in no CP at virtually no drawback b/c of the "autocrit" feature and 15k in hybrid pen.

Giljabrar

ZonasArch wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Templars will be scary af with this new set on.

Templar will be far from the worse offenders. Stamcro and stamden are the ones you should worry about.

I personally find the set to be fine, onslaught is still and will be a thing in next patch, you'll still have a 66% downtime on this set with how offbalance cooldown works.

mag plar can stack elemental drain and topping chardge from distance. one combo 100% kill confirmed no counterplay ...

Roll dodge, block, rune focus (since everyone is a that these days), shields, self heals in between, "oh crap! I'm in trouble!" monster sets(Lord warden maybe?)... There are lots of to bring up survivability, and they should all be used all the time against any opponent, kinda.

You cannot expect to be sitting there doing nothing and have a proc set it whatever that does the counter play for you. This is just penetration, it doesn't snare, doesn't stun, doesn't drain resources, doesn't reduce healing or shields... Even saying "no counter play" sounds silly. It's like saying there's no counter play to that guy with 6k weapon damage. Ever heard of blocking?

Have you fought somebody on the PTS using this set? Seriously asking. I've been PvPing in this game for a while, and fighting this set has been one of the single most oppressive things I've fought in PvP.

Even blocking their initial charge (and still getting set off balance) puts you in a world of hurt for 7 seconds. It's ludicrously hard to survive their damage even blocking, rolling, healing trying to live.

This set is good, but too strong.

660 penetration ~ 1% increased damage. This set provides 20.24% or so increased damage, on top of the 10% from CP for off balance.

30% damage increase, with a mostly manageable and very usable proc method to work around, is simply too much for this 5 piece.

All I proposed was an adjustment to the 5 piece penetration by no more than 35% bringing it closer to 13% from the pen alone.

One factor a lot of people don't consider. What is one of the biggest issues in the tank meta right now? Resistances and HP, sure. Those are for sure relevant and issues. BUT, % damage reduction sources don't give a flying f*** about your penetration. So that guy with Major and Minor protection (looking at you stamcro), maybe rocking BRP DW for an added 10%, or potentates for an added 5%, will laugh at your off balance.

So while this is a set that is promoting a healthier PvP environment all together, I believe it punished unintentional targets.

Those tanks you couldn't kill last patch, are still gonna struggle even with all that added pen (it will help for sure) but it's 100% going to be a lot more destructive on everyone who isn't a tank. Which, again, I'm mostly for. But not to this degree, it's excessive and needs toning down. Surely you can see that.

Mayrael

On paper this set looks equal for mag and stam but as usual stam benefits it more because of very easy access to offbalance. I guess fun times are gone when you actually could fight back, now we will have meta of "who lands dizzy combo first" again.

Giljabrar

Now, it might be a little inflated in general performance right now due to the lack of the base crit resist they have yet to get onto the PTS, but I felt entirety useless against this set, even in close to 30k resists.

I think having a proc condition set that has about twice the pen of spinner/spriggan seems reasonable. But 3 times the strength goes too far. Especially in conjunction with NMA.

Giljabrar

Just thought of this. How about make it a true anti tank set.

When you set an enemy off balance, gain 1% damage per 1320 of resistances the opponent has.

That way, you get 25% increased damage against somebody at resistance caps, but get diminished returns and less overpen on less armored targets.

olsborg

Its prob intended to be a tankkiller. Wich is fine, but atm its a killall set. So maybe give it a % pen like maul passive? An example is maybe 30% pen vs offbalance targets. Toughts?

Giljabrar

olsborg wrote: »

Its prob intended to be a tankkiller. Wich is fine, but atm its a killall set. So maybe give it a % pen like maul passive? An example is maybe 30% pen vs offbalance targets. Toughts?

That would probably be easier serverside than my proposal. And I would also endorse this, or a similar 5 piece.

red_emu

So a stamen just needs to pop the flappy bird, sub assault, shield charge and pop! Any mag user is instantly deleted.

I hope they make some changes to the base resists, at least for mag builds, since most stam builds can roll dodge endlessly. A mag build will do one break free, one roll and that's the end of it. Yes, we can invest more in stam and have 0 damage but then what's the point of running a mag build?

Faulgor

Ironic that Stuhn's set takes no prisoners.

Nordic precursor to Stendarr, brother of Tsun. Shield-thane of Shor, Stuhn was a warrior god that fought against the Aldmeri pantheon. He showed Men how to take, and the benefits of taking, prisoners of war.

Giljabrar

Moonsorrow wrote: »

People wanted the "tank meta" to end. Now enjoy it.

I`m lovin it.

Changes proposed by myself, and @olsborg make this an anti tank set, instead of an anti-everything set.

I want an end to the tank meta, but this set will promote more HP stacking on players with sources of % damage mitigation.

I want tanks to die, but not if that makes everybody a piece of sheet paper, while the tanks are still laughing behind their potentates SnB.

Anyron

I think the biggest issue with this is how easily stamina can get off balance compared to magicka.. Everybody is talking about magplars, but 2h users have off balance on high dmg spammable ability . That is problem

Tommy_The_Gun

I was thinking a bit about how developers approach to a "tanky meta" and they want to combat it with high penetration builds. We have seen more and more sets that give that bonus. But, I just want to say this:
Do you remember how we used to have quite effective tools to fight high damage mitigation builds ? Oblivion dmg & Bleed dmg ? Those were ignoring resistance. Oblivion dmg sets & enchants used to be much stronger and Bleed dmg had a different unique mechanics that was ignoring resistance.

The thing is, those were nerfed for a reason, as it was true that those were good counter to tanks, but as a side effect non-tank builds had no counter-play as the were getting vaporised.

With this much penetration, that you will be able to get & stack, I am pretty sure that It will have very similar effect (all dmg sources will act like "the old" bleed dmg or oblivion dmg). It will be very effective against tanky builds, but those will be able to have some reaction time and won't die in 1 - 2 hits. Same can not be said about less armoured builds, as those will be hit the hardest.

So, the "loop" continues...

Maulkin

Moonsorrow wrote: »

People wanted the "tank meta" to end. Now enjoy it.

I`m lovin it.

You're loving something you haven't even played yet? You think the tank meta was coming from armour mitigation?
You'll come home to the unique flavor of shattering the grand illusion. You'll come home to Simple Rick's.

I'm sure those builds that were stacking major/minor protection, major evasion, S&B block and another 10-15% mitigation from sets and/or passives will be terrified, while two-shotting everyone else with their Stuhn's. *cough necro *cough warden * cough

Mayrael wrote: »

On paper this set looks equal for mag and stam but as usual stam benefits it more because of very easy access to offbalance. I guess fun times are gone when you actually could fight back, now we will have meta of "who lands dizzy combo first" again.

Tbf Magplars (Toppling Charge) and MagDKs (Fossilize->Lash) also have very reliable ways of getting it to proc as part of their normal skill use. But yes the fact such a powerful set is only really accessible to certain builds/classes is highly problematic.

Imagine a set that gave you 14k penetration for 10 seconds after going invis and all NBs had to do is Cloak once every 10 secs to keep 100% up-time, while everyone else would have to hit an invis pot every 45 secs. Would that be an ok set too?

olsborg wrote: »

Its prob intended to be a tankkiller. Wich is fine, but atm its a killall set. So maybe give it a % pen like maul passive? An example is maybe 30% pen vs offbalance targets. Toughts?

If we mean that it gives extra penetration equal to 30% of targets armor, then yeah that's a great suggestion. So if your target has 30k armor you get 10k pen on top of any other source of pen you have. Though again, tying it to the off-balance is still problematic to me while some class/builds have access to spammables granting off-balance. Most reliable way is through Dizzy and 2H users already have Onslaught.

Why can't they add different, more accessible proc conditions and a forced cooldown? Like you crit with a direct attack, you get Stuhn's Favor for 7 secs, procs once every 20 secs. Sweet, now everyone can use it.

And also, why can't they add your spell/armor pen to char sheet? Especially console users with no -access to add-ons have no way of knowing what their pen is.

Giljabrar

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I was thinking a bit about how developers approach to a "tanky meta" and they want to combat it with high penetration builds. We have seen more and more sets that give that bonus. But, I just want to say this:
Do you remember how we used to have quite effective tools to fight high damage mitigation builds ? Oblivion dmg & Bleed dmg ? Those were ignoring resistance. Oblivion dmg sets & enchants used to be much stronger and Bleed dmg had a different unique mechanics that was ignoring resistance.

The thing is, those were nerfed for a reason, as it was true that those were good counter to tanks, but as a side effect non-tank builds had no counter-play as the were getting vaporised.

With this much penetration, that you will be able to get & stack, I am pretty sure that It will have very similar effect (all dmg sources will act like "the old" bleed dmg or oblivion dmg). It will be very effective against tanky builds, but those will be able to have some reaction time and won't die in 1 - 2 hits. Same can not be said about less armoured builds, as those will be hit the hardest.

So, the "loop" continues...

Couldn't agree more. I've stated multiple times in this thread, I LOVE the direction this set goes in the direction of anti-tank. But yes, this isn't a precision tool, meant to sneak through heavy resistances. This is an anti-material rifle, and everything in its way is gonna explode.

Still have a long PTS cycle ahead of us, and if this gets enough exposure hopefully ZoS will take steps in a productive direction to make this set valuable in upsetting the meta, without outright becoming the meta itself.

Because as somebody who spent his day firsthand seeing everyone on the PTS go "wow, that's actually broken", I wanted to get a jump on this discussion early into the cycle.

zammo

Anyron wrote: »

I think the biggest issue with this is how easily stamina can get off balance compared to magicka...

I agree to a point (although setting anyone off balance is easy enough if you're prepared to dodge roll), but I think the bigger issue here is stamina's much easier access to the exploiter CP passive. Magicka have to invest 75 points into Thaumaturge, and with how poor DoTs are, it isn't worth that investment, especially when that means taking points out of Ele Expert, Elfborn, and Master-at-Arms to get there. Stamina are able put those 75 points into Precise Strikes (the stam equivalent of Elfborn), Mighty (the stam equivalent of Ele expert), and Piercing if required. All very desirable.

As a PVP Magblade main, there are two things I want, removal of cast times (off all skills), and equal access to the exploiter CP passive.

wheem_ESO

zammo wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

I think the biggest issue with this is how easily stamina can get off balance compared to magicka...

I agree to a point (although setting anyone off balance is easy enough if you're prepared to dodge roll), but I think the bigger issue here is stamina's much easier access to the exploiter CP passive. Magicka have to invest 75 points into Thaumaturge, and with how poor DoTs are, it isn't worth that investment, especially when that means taking points out of Ele Expert, Elfborn, and Master-at-Arms to get there. Stamina are able put those 75 points into Precise Strikes (the stam equivalent of Elfborn), Mighty (the stam equivalent of Ele expert), and Piercing if required. All very desirable.

As a PVP Magblade main, there are two things I want, removal of cast times (off all skills), and equal access to the exploiter CP passive.

It's worth noting that not everyone plays CP-enabled PvP. I pretty much play Battlegrounds exclusively, and they were awful when CP was enabled for a patch ~2 years ago. My Magicka Necromancer has no way to reliably trigger off-balance in order to benefit from this clearly overpowered set. All I could really do is cross my fingers on Lightning Staff light/heavy attacks and Shock Enchants, along with perhaps wasting bar slots on Wall of Lightning and the Skeletal Mage I guess. That's vastly inferior to options that all Stam builds, Mag DK, Mag Templar, and ganker Mag NB have access to. They can all attempt their 1-shots pretty much on demand, while I'll need a favorable dice roll.

zammo

wheem_ESO wrote: »

zammo wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

I think the biggest issue with this is how easily stamina can get off balance compared to magicka...

I agree to a point (although setting anyone off balance is easy enough if you're prepared to dodge roll), but I think the bigger issue here is stamina's much easier access to the exploiter CP passive. Magicka have to invest 75 points into Thaumaturge, and with how poor DoTs are, it isn't worth that investment, especially when that means taking points out of Ele Expert, Elfborn, and Master-at-Arms to get there. Stamina are able put those 75 points into Precise Strikes (the stam equivalent of Elfborn), Mighty (the stam equivalent of Ele expert), and Piercing if required. All very desirable.

As a PVP Magblade main, there are two things I want, removal of cast times (off all skills), and equal access to the exploiter CP passive.

It's worth noting that not everyone plays CP-enabled PvP. I pretty much play Battlegrounds exclusively, and they were awful when CP was enabled for a patch ~2 years ago. My Magicka Necromancer has no way to reliably trigger off-balance in order to benefit from this clearly overpowered set. All I could really do is cross my fingers on Lightning Staff light/heavy attacks and Shock Enchants, along with perhaps wasting bar slots on Wall of Lightning and the Skeletal Mage I guess. That's vastly inferior to options that all Stam builds, Mag DK, Mag Templar, and ganker Mag NB have access to. They can all attempt their 1-shots pretty much on demand, while I'll need a favorable dice roll.

100% correct, I refer to CP enabled PvP.