Stuhn’s Favor WHY?

FirmamentOfStars

Kolzki wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Why u create such stupidly OP unbalanced set for what reason? to kill pvp completly?

2 – Adds 129 Weapon Damage
2 – Adds 129 Spell Damage
3 – Adds 1487 Physical Penetration
3 – Adds 1487 Spell Penetration
4 – Adds 129 Weapon Damage
4 – Adds 129 Spell Damage
5 – Increases your Physical and Spell Penetration by 13355 against Off-Balance enemies.

... so Toppling Charge +Elemental Drain and will remove nearly all ALL resistance ...so OP godplar will have kills combo with zero counterplay? WTF?...

Yep, totally agree, there seems to be one set to rule them all in cyrodiil next patch, why bother having any other set for pvp? You need to half the pen on this set and still it would be top notch.

This is the question. How much lower could the pen bonus be for people to consider running other sets?

8k might be a good option, which is quite some number. But since you dont have the bonus against same target all the time, it might be fair.

On the other hand, best option would be granting a percentage number similar like mauls grant. Such a calculation is laready in the game, therefore shouldnt add more weight on the server. Something like 30-50% wounds reasonable to me.

RiskyChalice863

SavageChain wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

SavageChain wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

SavageChain wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

You want an OP magplar?

-2 piece troll king, even if they want to nerf it you'll still get 1k regen (2 light)
-5 piece Stunh (1 heavy, 1 med, 3 light)
-5 piece Eternal vigor (jewels, lightning sharpened staff and defending resto)

5k less resistance from elemental drain, 2~k from light armor passives, another 2k from sharpened and 13355 fron stuhn for a total of 22~k pen and 2k (+ at least 500 base hp regen) passive healing for using sweeps.

What a wonderful meta we are gonna have, right?

Not a templar meta, because templar will feel weak stripped away some of their healing power. It will be a heavy armor new moon or fury, malacath ring and stunh meta with dizzy. Maybe they occasionally also transform to werewolves, which also have off balance. Magplar compared to that will be a joke...

Btw your magplar build is pretty weak just saying.

I don’t think it makes sense to think Magplar would be hit more than other classes by healing changes. Aside from MagSorcs, every class in the game relies pretty heavily on healing. And, in fact, I think the healing changes are probably a buff to Magplar, for the simple reason that I think Magplar will be hurt less than most other classes by it.

Why is that? Well, I believe that the way the Puncturing Sweeps heal functions, it won’t be affected by this change at all. After all, Puncturing Sweeps is a percent heal on damage—which will still be affected by -50% from Battle Spirit, not -60%—and I believe Battle Spirit isn’t then applied again to the heal. So the heal on Puncturing Sweeps will effectively bypass the PvP healing nerfs. So, considering that Puncturing Sweeps is a very significant component of Magplar healing, I think Magplar healing overall is going to be less hit than other classes’ healing. In other words, most classes will have *all* of their healing reduced by an additional 10%, while only *some* of Magplars’ healing will be.

Another factor is that less healing will make sustained pressure a bit better than it is now. Burst combos obviously aren’t affected by the healing reduction, since the whole point of a burst combo is that it kills before healing is relevant. But sustained pressure will be better since it will be quite a bit harder to heal through it. Normally, one would say this would improve DoTs. And it surely will. But, even so, DoTs are likely to still be pretty weak IMO. However, Magplars are one class that actually does a ton of sustained damage (Sweeps). It’ll become a lot harder to self-heal through Sweeps, which will make Magplar offense a good bit more effective. Other classes will obviously benefit too, but the more a class can output sustained pressure, the bigger a buff the healing reduction is to their offense.

This Stuhn’s set will be good for Magplars, but they definitely aren’t the only class that will be able to utilize it really well. That said, they are one of the several classes that can basically trigger off balance on demand with a single ability, so they will be one of the best classes at utilizing it.

Well I can tell you why your argumentation doesnt really make sense.

Currently we have more or like 2 or 3 stamina classes, which are overhealing in PvP, namely stamdens, stamdks and stamnecroes. The first two do that, because as most stamclasses they reach very high vigor tooltips and combine it with major mending and further healing passives, additionally to them they have also several burst heal options. Stamnecro is a bit different, since they are overhealing thanks to their stacked mitigation sources, basically less in need of strong heals. All three have enough healing power to stay at 80-100% of their health bars at all time in PvP, meaning they are overhealing. compared to that magclasses like magplars, magdks and magnecros rely pretty much on their burst heals. Mostly they use it when low (because why would you use a burst heal at 80%), meaning they are already pressured and probably take more damage as if they arent low. Their burst heal if used at the right time, will heal them up to exactly 100% or lower (if they overhealed, that would mean they used their heal too early). With the healing changes they will have to heal earlier to get back to 100% or they will see how they usual burst heal doesnt get them as high as before, reliefing them less from the pressure. Stamina chars on the other hand use vigor like a buff or proactively, meaning that some of their heals is wasted anyway, called overhealing.

Puncturing sweeps might heal a bit, but its heal is only really significant in a situation, where you are overwhelming your enemy, knowing that the weak heal from it gets you back up since your enemy doesnt hit back. Against an equal matchup jabs will nowhere be a reliably healing source to stay on the offense for a longer time. Even extended ritual helps there more. So basically you get a few percent more healing on an unreliable pretty small healing source.

Sustained pressure in those game is a very confusing definition and people sadly confuse it a lot. It actualy should apply to a class relying on dot damage. Sadly dots were nerfed to a state you cant call them pressure anymore. Calling puncturing strikes sustained pressure therefore is nonsense, because its a spammable. Otherwise actually everey class spamming a spammable would have sustained pressure.

Last point why you are wrong is because you are saying they are one of a few classing being able to use it reliably. This set is good for any class with access to offbalance, meaning every stamina class in all conten can use it to its full extent thanks to dizzying swing. In cp actually every class can use it, since the cp passive tacticioner sets enemy offbalance too, so even magicka classes could use it easely. Even in no cp every stamina class has still dizzy to offbalance enemies, magdens have a spammable applying offbalance, magdks have offbalance built in the proc of flame lash. Offbalance is a wide spread debuff, so saying magplar can make great use of it is kind of nonsense, because pretty much every class can do that.

A few points:

1. I don’t see how your point about overhealing makes sense.

- For one, both magicka and stamina classes have burst heals and HoTs. So there’s not some dichotomy where magicka uses burst heals and stamina uses HoTs. Magicka classes have HoTs, and Stamina classes have Rally, so everything you said about burst heals and HoTs applies to both.

- Secondly, just as a magicka player would optimally not burst heal in a way that makes them overheal, a stamina player would optimally not have built into healing so much that they’re overhealing a ton (if someone is overhealing a ton, then they would very likely be better off investing more in sources of damage that provide more damage but don’t increase healing—such as penetration, minor berserk, sources of additional weapon damage that only affect certain types of attacks, etc.).

- More importantly, I don’t see how the fact that stamina classes may overheal by doing things like pre-casting Vigor really matters at all for the purposes of what we’re discussing. The point is that when stamina classes *aren’t* overhealing (i.e. the times where they really need the healing to stay alive), their healing will be reduced just like a Magplar’s would be when they really need healing. In fact, stamina class’s burst heal doing less healing is arguably worse for them, since the way Rally functions means they can’t do consecutive burst heals—if their burst heal leaves them still low, they can’t just use another one.

- And, of course, it’s also worth noting that those stamina classes that you say are overhealing a ton will be overhealing a lot less with so much less healing, as they’re much less likely to have HoTs that heal more than the incoming damage.

So I just think the whole overhealing argument is essentially a made-up argument that simply gets you to the conclusion you want to get to.

2. Puncturing Sweeps heals much more than “a bit”

Puncturing Sweeps heals quite a lot. Granted, it can be mitigated by people blocking or avoiding the damage, so it’s not entirely consistent. But it’s a very significant heal, and makes up a large percentage of a Magplar’s self healing. As an example, let’s just take my current Magplar. I’m going to assume it is no-CP, because that’s the PvP I tend to play, but I don’t think CP would fundamentally affect the following in any significant way.

Fully buffed, my Extended Ritual has a tooltip of 2543 every 2 seconds. That’s 1272 healing per second, which would turn to 636 healing per second with the current Battle Spirit. I have 33.7% crit rate, with 50% critical healing. Taking that into account, Extended Ritual will average 743 healing per second on me.

Meanwhile, my Sweeps tooltip is 2979 per hit (with four hits, obviously), with 43% of damage being returned as healing. Obviously, the amount of healing this does depends on the tankiness of the person I’m attacking. But here’s the deal. In order to only do 743 healing per second while I’m using Sweeps, my Sweeps would have to do only 1728 damage. Assuming an opponent in full impen gear, that would require my opponent to have about 74% damage mitigation on top of Battle Spirit. And I’ve got 8243 spell penetration. Sweeps will almost always do more damage than that—and usually a lot more.

Just to put some color on this, let’s say I’m facing a player who has 30k spell resistance, minor protection, major evasion, and full impen gear (again, all in no-CP, so 30k spell resistance is really high). This is a very tanky individual who will limit the self-heal on Sweeps by mitigating lots of damage. If I hit that person with a full Sweeps, it will on average do 3071 damage. I will therefore average 1321 healing from that. That is still almost *twice* the healing per second on Extended Ritual. Yes, you can construct a scenario where that same person is also on their back bar blocking with a sword and board, and therefore Sweeps actually provides a little less healing than Extended Ritual. And yes, if you only connect on that tanky person with 1 or 2 of the Sweeps hits, then the healing would be lower. And those things do happen. But there’s also many scenarios where you’re hitting multiple people with your Sweeps and the healing scales up even more, as well as many scenarios where you aren’t attacking someone with 30k spell resistance, minor protection, major evasion, and full impen gear.

Overall, it seems quite obvious to me that Magplars that are on the offensive are typically getting significantly more self-healing from their Sweeps than they are from Extended Ritual. So I just don’t see how you’ve concluded that it’s a “pretty small heal” that is overshadowed by Extended Ritual’s healing. It’s just factually incorrect. It’s simply objective fact that the healing from Sweeps is a very significant portion of a Magplar’s self healing when they’re on the attack. And it is self healing that will not be nerfed by this change to Battle Spirit.

3. You’re missing the point about sustained damage

You can classify it as whatever you want. The point is that less healing doesn’t make it easier to kill someone with a burst combo, while it *does* make it easier to kill someone with sustained damage. This is a very obvious fact, since healing is irrelevant to whether a burst combo kills you, while healing obviously mitigates sustained damage. This means that a nerf to healing will benefit classes and builds that rely on sustained damage significantly more than it will benefit ones that rely on burst damage. Magplars do have burst in their kit, but ultimately they rely a lot on Sweeps, which is just inherently a sustained damage ability rather than a burst ability, since it is a multi-hit channel. So nerfs to healing will benefit Sweeps quite a bit, which means Magplars will benefit from it much more than classes whose offensive kit is more based around making a bunch of damage hit all at once.

4. It is not nonsense to say Magplars will be one of the best classes at utilizing Stuhn’s

First of all, I simply did not say that “they are one of a few classes being able to use it reliably.”

That aside, what I did say is that “they are one of the several classes that can basically trigger off balance on demand with a single ability.” And that is true. Yes, stamina classes can also do that, with Dizzying Swing. Realistically, though, that doesn’t apply to Stamplars, because they almost certainly won’t be using Dizzying Swing and therefore will not be able to utilize Stuhn’s very easily. Yes, Magdens can do it too. But Magplars can definitely proc off balance more easily than Magcros, MagSorcs, MagDKs, Magblades, and Stamplars. MagDKs have relatively easy access to off balance, but even that is a two-step process, rather than triggering off balance with a single ability. Magblades have access to off-balance, but it is not reliable, since it doesn’t work if you’re pulled out of cloak. Magcros and MagSorcs basically don’t have directly access to it. And Stamplars don’t have access to an easy off balance trigger unless they abandon Jabs or actually run Toppling Charge despite it being a magicka ability—either of which isn’t really ideal.

And even comparing to Magdens and Stam classes using Dizzying Swing, I’d argue Magplars are better able to utilize Stuhn’s. This is primarily because their off balance trigger also stuns the person at the same time. This will make it easier to actually utilize the burst window that Stuhn’s provides. With both Magdens and Dizzying Swing, there will be some potential counterplay, where you can turtle up and/or avoid the Stuhn’s burst after you’re set off balance. Granted, the window will be very short with Dizzying Swing (since the next one will stun you). But there won’t be any such window with a Magplar, since you will be stunned. And that’s not even mentioning the fact that, compared to Dizzying Swing, Magplars will be able to immediately proc off balance on someone who isn’t already in melee range.

Well your arguments are petty easely countered though...

1. Stamina is overhealing, because they have both strong hots and burst heals, meanwhile magclasses in most cases do not use both. Thanks to the high scaling of weapon damage, vigor, rally and all other stamina heals have innate more healing than their magicka counterparts. An example would be the wardens skill fungal growth. On a typical warden build, the magicka morph is a pretty bad heal, meanwhile the stamina morph on a typical stamina build actually is a decent and viable heal.

Stamina players tend to use their hots mostly proactively, meaning before engaging with a combo to get away with high health after finishing the combo. Mostly they easely just outheal the damage of dots on them, when they enemy i son defense.

2. You just have proven with your math, that sweeps actually heals less than extended ritual. Your end results against a tanky buidl resulted in almost twice the heal from ritual or something along these lines were your words. Now in a normal 1v1 you will never use sweeps every second. Your argument is based on the comparison of hps of sweeps and ritual, but your ritual has 100% uptime in a fight, meanwhile you will never use sweeps as much between all your buffs and other damage skills. In an even matchup we spread the offensive windows evenly, so that you and your enemy both have an offensive window, where your enemy is defending or at least rebuffing. So this means half your time you are offensive and half the time defensive. Your offensive window most likely includes entropy and vamp bane or solar barrage as dor pressure, than puryfying light, followed by an ult when ready a stun and 3-4 times jabs. Basically half the time of your offensive window is jabs, threrefore a 4th of your whole fighting time is jabs. Your own statement is, that jabs has almost twice the hps than extended ritual, but only has an uptime of 25% meanwhile ritual has 100%. This makes extended ritual actually heal more than twice than jabs.

3. Again you say sweeps is a channel and therefore sustained pressure. Lets add two dots and sweeps as you total sustained damage, but isnt that the same as a stamdk with two dots and spamming dizzying swing? both ahve two dots, so basically you are comparing jabs spam with dizzy spam. So basically you are saying spamming a spammable is sustained damage, therefore every class actually has sustained damage. This argument of saying magplar profits from it more because it has sustained damage is therefore nonsense. There is no sustained damage in the form you mean in the game anymore, since dots were nerfed to the ground. Every class tries to burst down people, some have shorter burst combos, some others have longers. Magplars burst comes from the crescent and puryfying light, other classes have their own with blastbones, shalks, curse or whatever. Some classes come closer to one shot combos, meanwhile magplars do not. their burst comes after 6 seconds and they need to fill it up. Normally with precasted dots and the jabs spam, but thats just comparable to somebody spamming dizzy and getting of their shalks or blastbones in between. The concept of sustained pressure just doesnt exist anymore, so all classes benefit the same from the healing reduction.

4. You are right, templars have a cc tool with offbalance, but same counts for every stam class with dizzying swing (if you forgot, that dizzy stuns on second use or every weaved medium attack on offbalance enemies stuns, which actually is more dangerously than being cced by topppling charge, since the cc is off global cooldown and the hard hitting follow up comes immediately and not a second later). Therefore magplar profits the same as all stamclasses and together with a few other magclasses like wardens. Btw many stamplars use toppling charge too. Half of the maglcasses though were left behind, since they have no access to offbalance as easely as magplars. So basically 75% of all classes have an easy and reliable tool to set enemies offbalance.

1. I don’t understand what your point is at all here. You are essentially arguing that stamina classes won’t be hurt by a big nerf to healing because they do lots of healing. That is a self-evidently ridiculous argument to make. Being generous to you, it appears your idea seems to be that stamina classes heal SO MUCH that a nerf to their healing won’t affect their survivability because they basically have way more healing than they need. That is outlandish if you actually think more than a few seconds about it, though, because stamina players do actually die. Granted, sometimes it’s to burst that healing wouldn’t help them with. But the idea that stamina players have so much healing that they never die to sustained damage—including, as is often the case, from multiple opponents—is just absurd. Yes, there are cheesy unkillable tank builds out there, and there are also really good players who can outclass lesser players. But to try to make a serious point about balance that comes from a perspective that stamina classes aren’t hurt by healing nerfs because they heal so much that they can’t die to anything but a burst spike even with a big healing nerf is just silly. Even builds that have enough self-healing to stay alive against sustained damage from a single opponent get vulnerable to sustained damage from multiple opponents. Even the best 1vX players on the most meta stam builds do actually die from inadequate healing.

2. It is true that Puncturing Sweeps heals don’t have 100% uptime. But it’s also true that in the uptime it does have, it does WAY more healing than Extended Ritual. And I was responding to you specifically suggesting that the heal from Puncturing Sweeps doesn’t allow you to stay on the offensive.

You said: “Against an equal matchup jabs will nowhere be a reliably healing source to stay on the offense for a longer time. Even extended ritual helps there more.“ That’s why I specifically said the following: “It’s simply objective fact that the healing from Sweeps is a very significant portion of a Magplar’s self healing when they’re on the attack.”

Healing that allows you to “stay on the offense” obviously is healing that you get while being offensive. And when you are on the offensive, Puncturing Sweeps will do more healing than Extended Ritual—usually by a significant margin.

Yes, even on the offense, Sweeps don’t have 100% uptime, since you do use other offensive abilities. But you pretty obviously overstate the percent of the time other abilities are used. First of all, very few Magplars are using DoTs these days, since they are simply not strong. You yourself admitted as much, saying you “can’t call them pressure anymore” and that they were “nerfed to the ground.” Yet, somehow, for the purposes of this argument, you’re now suggesting Magplars are spending a significant portion of their offensive window on DoTs. They aren’t. One might use Degeneration for the Major Sorcery, but that’s it, and even there you probably use it just for the 20 second buff, so it’s not taking up many GCDs. Second, you seem to be acting like an ult is up all the time, which obviously isn’t true. More realistically, a Magplar’s offensive window really typically just amounts to: (1) Purifying Light; (2) Toppling Charge; (3) four or five Sweeps, until maybe a second after Purifying Light pops. There’d be an ult in there replacing a Sweeps if it’s up. So Sweeps are realistically a good bit more than 50% of your GCD’s during your offensive window.

And if they make up more than 50% of your GCD’s during your offensive window, then they will do more healing in that time than Extended Ritual in virtually every single situation.

I also want to point out that I used a particularly tanky opponent as my example, just to show the absurdity of your position, not to suggest that that’s the baseline amount of healing that Sweeps would usually give. Sweeps will do much more healing when attacking the typical player. For instance, let’s amend my example, and assume we’re still looking at no-CP but the opponent has only 20k resistance, minor protection, and full impen and that’s it. That’s much closer to the average no-CP player. How much healing would Sweeps do in my example? It would average 2159 healing per Sweeps. So that’s actually about 3x the healing Extended Ritual provides per second. If we then assume that Sweeps are about 65% of the abilities you use in your offensive window (see above), you’re looking at almost twice as much healing during your offensive window from Sweeps as you are from Extended Ritual. So your statement that “Against an equal matchup jabs will nowhere be a reliably healing source to stay on the offense for a longer time. Even extended ritual helps there more” was simply not correct. Sweeps is a very big source of healing when you’re on the offensive.

As for the more general point about overall healing—as opposed to healing during your offensive window—yes, it is of course true that Sweeps doesn’t heal when you’re on the defensive. But my original point was that Sweeps is a significant component of Magplars’ healing and its healing isn’t being nerfed, meaning that Magplar healing is being nerfed less than other classes’ healing. That is true even if Sweeps is a similar or even lesser component of their overall healing than Extended Ritual. Whether Ritual or Sweeps heals more, Sweeps is *still* a significant element of their healing and isn’t getting nerfed. That’s just fact. And your only retort to that more general point has been to claim that Sweeps is a “pretty small healing source,” as if the healing from Sweeps is basically a non-factor. But that’s just not true.

3. No, Magplars have a large amount of sustained pressure, in a way that other classes can’t output because DoTs are not good. You claim that sustained damage doesn’t work right now—because DoTs were nerfed—and so every class is a burst class and that Magplars’ burst comes from Purifying Light and Crescent Sweep. But Magplars actually retained quite a bit of sustained pressure even after DoTs were nerfed, because Sweeps damage wasn’t nerfed, and Sweeps/Jabs has always done way more damage than any spammable in the game (due in decent part to Burning Light). So yeah, in a sense, spamming a spammable IS sustained damage (though Sweeps is inherently more “sustained” than Dizzying, since it’s 4 hits over one second, rather than one big hit). The biggest difference with Magplars is that when they do that, the possible damage output is higher than when other classes do (aside from Stamplars, of course), because they have the highest damage spammable in the game.

Just to give you an example, I play BGs a lot with my Magplar, and I literally don’t even slot Purifying Light, and yet easily get more kills on it than I do with any of my other characters. I don’t really need Purifying Light to get kills, because my Sweeps will kill most people a little bit before Purifying Light would pop, and using Purifying Light will therefore often just be a waste of magicka and a GCD—which could allow the other person to either get away or take the initiative in the fight. Obviously, there’s a trade off, since there are some tanky people that I can’t quite kill by myself. But with Battle Spirit being -60% to healing, I will be able to kill *even more* people basically just with sustained damage from Sweeps spam. I can’t say the same about my other characters, because they’re much more reliant on burst to get kills and are so far away from consistently getting kills with sustained damage without help from teammates that I doubt sustained damage will be viable for them even with the healing nerf.

4. I clearly didn’t forget that Dizzying stuns on its second usage. I literally wrote the following in the post you were responding to: “Granted, the window will be very short with Dizzying Swing (since the next one will stun you).” I agree that Dizzying will be good with Stuhn’s.

My point about Toppling probably being even better, though, is that there absolutely will be more ability to turtle up to avoid the follow-up damage when you’re set off balance by Dizzying Swing. If you’re set off balance by Dizzying Swing by a player using Stuhn’s, there *is* a window to avoid the stun and follow up damage. The window is short—particularly if the person weaves a very quick medium attack—but it exists. The opposing player has the opportunity to immediately turtle up—whether that’s by blocking, dodging, using abilities like Mist Form or Streak or Shade, etc. This means they’ll have a brief opportunity to avoid the follow-up stun entirely. That opportunity won’t exist if someone uses Toppling Charge. With Toppling Charge, a Magplar can *guarantee* that they get a stun in while someone is off balance—which will be a big help in ensuring they get big damage in during a Stuhn’s window.

Also, your point about a medium weave being off the GCD—making the stun from Dizzying better—is ultimately essentially nullified by two things: First, most stam builds won’t be able to output instant damage in the next GCD anyways, since their options for damage will typically be Dizzying Swing and ultimates with cast times. Second, Toppling Charge has a travel time if you’re not right on someone, so practically speaking you can often attack essentially immediately afterwards, and Crescent Sweep doesn’t have a cast time.

FirmamentOfStars

Yes most stam classes just have ridiculous healing...that the whole point, that together with better mobility makes every soloer mostly play stamina atm. And in the case of stamcro, this very strong healing is paired with extreme stacking of mitigations. Extreme healing, mobility and mitigation results in overhealing....

Well I gonna try making it short for you:

Yes magplars still use additional skills for dot like pressure like entropy, vamps bane, solar barrage and puryfying light, because additionally to their damage those skills passively grant sorcery and prophecy buffs. In competent duelling magplars use entropy all 10 seconds, because the damage is still damage they need to fill up puryfying light. Additionally solar barrage or vamps bane is used to help again with loading puryfying light and for considerable damage. The low cost of crescent sweep allows using it every second offensive window. So half of your offensive window is filled with dots, cc and ult.

Why jabs is not that great of a heal is because a templar normally has no great proactive healing or strong defensive measures, therefore a magplar starting to be offensive with low health is pretty much dead, since jabs can not be blockcasted. So you are at something between 80-100% health when you start being offensive and therefore the healing of jabs heals you maybe for zero health, if you are already at 100%. It is very likely that the heal is insignificant because of the templars nature. s you said yourself, jabs is like 50% of your offensive window, so like 25% of all time and the first heals of it will not heal you mostly, since you start your offense at high health, meanwhile ritual is up all the time, when its needed and when not.

About puryfying light: Naturally this skill is only used when facing an equal enemy and if you are by your own. Therefore bgs is a bad example, because you either pugstomp there, so no need for a 6 second delayed damage, because pugs die with 3 jabs same as they die withing 3 dizzying swings. Additionally you wont use pury in a group setting, since the delay is too long and a group focusing a target makes it too slow anyway. if your enemies die before pury would go off, just means you have help from your group or you are facing pugs.

Jabs just have the highest damage tooltip, but reality shows that its damage in a real scenario is between the normal spammable of every class and a delayed damage ability. The average damage of it is very much comparable to dizzying swing or flurry. Alos lets not forget jabs being the only spammable to be mitigated by evasion, which is used by like half of all PvP builds.

About offbalance and stun mechanic of toppling charge compared to dizzy:
Toppling charge as you said has a delay annd therefore is easy countered by blocking or dodging. Delay between follow up burst is through topplings delay and the ult cast time similar, the difference is that with toppling you exactly know when the stun is coming, making a templars offense easely foreseen. There are two options: toppling comes right after buffing up and initiating the offense, so right after puryfying light or dark flare. Its easy predictable. The other possibilty is to stun right, when puryfying light explodes. If its not number one, its number too and therefore the whole offesne of magplars is easely countered. Meanwhile the the stun coming from a stamina char is much less predictable, since they can choose when to stun with the medium attack and sneak in the stun rather like having a delayed and very predictable animation for the stun.

scottii

why not just make the 5th trait, deals extra damage to players? i get zos devs are trying to level out the skill gap in pvp. it's not complicated, so stop making it more complicated.

Slowbromance

With this set there's really no reason to heal in Cyrodiil anymore, not to mention the new 60% healing reduction in Cyro. Pandering to one play style yet again. This set will be just like Sload's was with Summerset release.

I'm honestly just tired of ZoS siding with cry babies saying that healing is too strong in the game. It's not. If you are good at your job, it's not. People make these tank/DPS hybrid builds and get mad when someone can out heal the damage they output.

This game gives you several options to balance your toolkit, and if someone is playing right they can down any healer. People have gotten lazy and cry in the forums when their tank/sustain/proc build they have setup doesn't work as soon as a good healer shows up.

And then ZoS yet again takes from the healing kit and makes sets like this to discourage PvP healing. Might as well grab this set and have fun with it for the next three months until they kind of balance it like they did with Sload's. It will not change in PTS.

FirmamentOfStars

Slowbromance wrote: »

With this set there's really no reason to heal in Cyrodiil anymore, not to mention the new 60% healing reduction in Cyro. Pandering to one play style yet again. This set will be just like Sload's was with Summerset release.

I'm honestly just tired of ZoS siding with cry babies saying that healing is too strong in the game. It's not. If you are good at your job, it's not. People make these tank/DPS hybrid builds and get mad when someone can out heal the damage they output.

This game gives you several options to balance your toolkit, and if someone is playing right they can down any healer. People have gotten lazy and cry in the forums when their tank/sustain/proc build they have setup doesn't work as soon as a good healer shows up.

And then ZoS yet again takes from the healing kit and makes sets like this to discourage PvP healing. Might as well grab this set and have fun with it for the next three months until they kind of balance it like they did with Sload's. It will not change in PTS.

The most sad part about this thing is, that ZOS caters in PvE and PvP to the new and inexpirienced players and let the small scalers and soloers suffer.

WoppaBoem

Pls remove the set, oke its and idea but please admit mistake made, the tank nerfs are enough this set is just stupid. I currently requires a good build to get dmg and penetration this build is just easy more and I see the complexity of building being put on easy mode. Pls do not allow this to go live.

Sahidom

Cliff Diver … nice ranged Off-Balance skill for the Wardens to maximize this type of set.

katorga

SavageChain wrote: »

Yes most stam classes just have ridiculous healing...that the whole point, that together with better mobility makes every soloer mostly play stamina atm. And in the case of stamcro, this very strong healing is paired with extreme stacking of mitigations. Extreme healing, mobility and mitigation results in overhealing....

ZOS proceeded down the "make all classes capable of all roles" path which results in builds capable of damage, tankiness, and self healing. In ESO you are good at everything, and just enhance with set bonuses.

In most MMOs you have a defined class in the "trinity". That creates hard limits on a build causing you to trade off damage for suvivability or healing. Vigor basically blew this out of the water.

Others have better designed build or skill trees that prevent you from maxing out dps, tank, healer skill trees at the same time. You can be excellent in one, limited in the other two or average in everything. CP is and example of the exact opposite of this concept...you get maximum benefit spending everywere rather than maximum benefit from heavily investing in a few stars.

FirmamentOfStars

katorga wrote: »

SavageChain wrote: »

Yes most stam classes just have ridiculous healing...that the whole point, that together with better mobility makes every soloer mostly play stamina atm. And in the case of stamcro, this very strong healing is paired with extreme stacking of mitigations. Extreme healing, mobility and mitigation results in overhealing....

ZOS proceeded down the "make all classes capable of all roles" path which results in builds capable of damage, tankiness, and self healing.

In most MMOs you have a defined class in the "trinity". That creates hard limits on a build causing you to trade off damage for suvivability or healing.

Others have better designed build or skill trees that prevent you from maxing out dps, tank, healer skill trees at the same time. You can be excellent in one, limited in the other two or average in everything. CP is the exact opposite of this concept...you get maximum benefit spending everywere rather than maximum benefit from heavily investing in a few stars.

It is true, that the standardization somehow let people build for tankyness, damage and sustain at the same time. Also cps allow to kind of fill in gaps missing for an allrounder build. Still some classes have better tools to do so, especially in PvP.

A stamina necromancer can stack 30% major protection, 25% aoe mitigation with evasion, 15% less dot damage taken, 10% less damage thanks to spirit guardian, another 10% with new spectral, 8% minor protection, maybe another 5% with potatoes and all that without making any big sacrifice for their build. They still can run 5 fury, 5 new moon and a full monsterset. Now the same stamina necromancer in medium armor can use vigor, mortal coil and rally as very strong heals.

Compared to that a magplar for example can actually stack minor protection with potatoes, so 8% and 5% without any specific sets to achieve higher mitigation. Naturally you can go for pirate skelleton to gain major protection for a certain uptime, but you lose the opportunity to use a better monsterset, meanwhile the stamina necromancer can wear whatever monsterset he likes.

That is why some classes despite standardization have better mitigation and tankyness than others, but still get same damage as the others. And currently most stamina classes just do better in getting high mitigation and healing power while remaining damage dealers than magicka does.

I infact rather would like to see more specialized classes without the "you can play as you want" philosophy of ZOS, since it allows far better theorycrafting, far more builds and playstyles. But well it is what it is.

mav1234

This set has potential to lead to insane - and dumb - burst combos. Not a good idea. Off balance access is not even close to equal across classes.

sunshineflame

No healing help from the 5 piece, yes 2 damage bonus on 1&3 but that's not op. Has a cooldown on target, only applies to targets that are off balanced. I see this as another proc set. Some people will still choose 100% uptime sets.

Clever gives you 2x+ over other "damage sets" but has a proc condition. This set should outperform static sets like NMA, during the proc window, since it doesn't buff heals and isn't "up" 100% of the time.

sunshineflame

Would also love to see some testing and data instead of pure conjecture before calling for nerfs. But hey, what's the point if you can't make unproven claims these days

Deathlord92

My nightblades looks forward to this set 😈 besides pvp already ruined by the stupidly overpowering stamcro thought I’d remind everyone 100% uptime on major defile and op damage aoe 🤣🤣🤣

Deathlord92

High damage needs to happen the tanky meta sucks

wylievc

Mayrael wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Dear Chef, to counter tank meta we need soultions targeted in high resistance builds not in general in everyone who has resistances, we need soultions that are highly effective against high resistance targets and not effective against low resistance targets.

E.g. you ignore (0.1*target resistances)^2 of your target resistances so vs someone with 30k resists you would gain 9k penetration, vs someone with 20k resists you would gain 4k penetration, vs someone with 10k resists you would gain 1k penetration and this would be minimum pen you can get from this set.

Agreed. Though a set with more than the most simple of math involved in its bonuses I wouldn't recommend. I'd suggest the (5) set bonus should be: When you deal damage to an enemy who is Off Balance, gain Stuhn's Favor for 5 seconds causing your attacks to ignore 30% of your target's armor. I.e. 9k penetration vs 30k resists and 3k penetration vs 10k resists. From my calculations (based on Mundus Stones), sustained single target dps against a target with ~22k resistances would be balanced with such sets as Hundings Rage, against targets with 25k resistances it would be balanced with Armor of Truth. Due to its shorter buff duration, its burst power would be the same as Armor of Truth against targets with 17.5k resistances. Otherwise less power when compared to those sets when enemies have less than stated resistances.

daemonor

Ok so did anyone have a chance to actually test this set in pvp before complaining? I had about an hour worth of duels with a fellow magplar that I've met on the pts as a magicka dragonknight, and I have to say I was dissapointed af.

My setup was 5 heavy stuhns with inferno staff infused shock glyph, tristat on big pieces, 5 seducer with triune jewelery and spell damage glyphs, citrus fleet with atro mundus and malacatch ring with 1 piece domihaus potentates sword and board backbar full impen. To my huge dissapointment his PC didn't explode after eating a fosilize>x2whip>leap combo, and he had time to go on the offensive and make me sweat while trying to survive his burst with 30k hp and 25k resistances.

To my huge dissapoitment I came back with my live setup - 5light 2 heavy elf bane with x3 tristat, infused spell damage jewelery, overwhelming surge lighting infused shock glyph main bar with grothgar monster set, and potentates snb backbar with atro mundus and sugar skulls. 100% times out of 100% he didn't even have the time to go on the offensive due to combined passive pressure from procs and fosilize with whip.

Now I'm aware that this is a very small sample size, mag dk is cheap in duels, I wasn't stamina and he wasn't a stamcro/stamplar/stamden either so the results may vary. Mag dks have an easy off balance just like templars and don't have to go out of their way to proc it, so in theory this all sounded very nice but failed to deliver.

If anyone's curious to test any pvp builds in duels themselves hit me up, I will gladly come online and suffer repeated blows to the head for the sake of good feedback!

Vea

I need to create a new character.
Name: " Inever-leave-thekeep" 😒

Sahidom

Deathlord92 wrote: »

High damage needs to happen the tanky meta sucks

This is the problem. ZOS should not introduce a gear set specifically designed to counter the tank meta. A more pragmatic and balanced approach would be to reduce the penetration granted by 50% versus Off-Balance. Or, the 20% ignore mechanic that mirrors the mace passive benefits; That would still deliver a unique set with a side benefit to expand on melee weapon choices. A month after release, the forums will blow up with complains about the set.

RiskyChalice863

SavageChain wrote: »

Yes most stam classes just have ridiculous healing...that the whole point, that together with better mobility makes every soloer mostly play stamina atm. And in the case of stamcro, this very strong healing is paired with extreme stacking of mitigations. Extreme healing, mobility and mitigation results in overhealing....

Well I gonna try making it short for you:

Yes magplars still use additional skills for dot like pressure like entropy, vamps bane, solar barrage and puryfying light, because additionally to their damage those skills passively grant sorcery and prophecy buffs. In competent duelling magplars use entropy all 10 seconds, because the damage is still damage they need to fill up puryfying light. Additionally solar barrage or vamps bane is used to help again with loading puryfying light and for considerable damage. The low cost of crescent sweep allows using it every second offensive window. So half of your offensive window is filled with dots, cc and ult.

Why jabs is not that great of a heal is because a templar normally has no great proactive healing or strong defensive measures, therefore a magplar starting to be offensive with low health is pretty much dead, since jabs can not be blockcasted. So you are at something between 80-100% health when you start being offensive and therefore the healing of jabs heals you maybe for zero health, if you are already at 100%. It is very likely that the heal is insignificant because of the templars nature. s you said yourself, jabs is like 50% of your offensive window, so like 25% of all time and the first heals of it will not heal you mostly, since you start your offense at high health, meanwhile ritual is up all the time, when its needed and when not.

About puryfying light: Naturally this skill is only used when facing an equal enemy and if you are by your own. Therefore bgs is a bad example, because you either pugstomp there, so no need for a 6 second delayed damage, because pugs die with 3 jabs same as they die withing 3 dizzying swings. Additionally you wont use pury in a group setting, since the delay is too long and a group focusing a target makes it too slow anyway. if your enemies die before pury would go off, just means you have help from your group or you are facing pugs.

Jabs just have the highest damage tooltip, but reality shows that its damage in a real scenario is between the normal spammable of every class and a delayed damage ability. The average damage of it is very much comparable to dizzying swing or flurry. Alos lets not forget jabs being the only spammable to be mitigated by evasion, which is used by like half of all PvP builds.

About offbalance and stun mechanic of toppling charge compared to dizzy:
Toppling charge as you said has a delay annd therefore is easy countered by blocking or dodging. Delay between follow up burst is through topplings delay and the ult cast time similar, the difference is that with toppling you exactly know when the stun is coming, making a templars offense easely foreseen. There are two options: toppling comes right after buffing up and initiating the offense, so right after puryfying light or dark flare. Its easy predictable. The other possibilty is to stun right, when puryfying light explodes. If its not number one, its number too and therefore the whole offesne of magplars is easely countered. Meanwhile the the stun coming from a stamina char is much less predictable, since they can choose when to stun with the medium attack and sneak in the stun rather like having a delayed and very predictable animation for the stun.

Stam classes have lots of healing, and now they won’t have nearly so much healing. That’s a nerf. Going from -50% healing to -60% healing hurts classes that rely on having tons of healing.

I don’t do dueling, so maybe DoTs are used there, but outside of duels, Magplars aren’t using DoTs aside from maybe Degeneration. Even Reflective Light/Vampire’s Bane is replaced by Inner Light, so that you don’t need to cast a DoT to get major prophecy. You just won’t find many Magplar builds for Cyrodiil/BGs with multiple DoTs.

Outside of perhaps the context of duels—which I don’t play and isn’t really the main thing people talk about when it comes to PvP and PvP balance—fights aren’t so structured that your point about Sweeps makes sense. In most normal play—whether in BGs or Cyrodiil or IC—someone will likely be damaging you while you’re using Sweeps—whether it’s the person you’re using Sweeps on or it’s someone else. So even if you start Sweeps at 80-100% health (which isn’t always the case, because even though you shouldn’t start Sweeps when actually low health, there’s room between low health and 80-100% health) the healing will be quite relevant. And, not that it matters all that much, but I actually did not at all say myself that Jabs is 50% of the offensive window. I spent quite a while explaining that it was more than that. It’s just true that Sweeps healing is a significant component of Magplars’ healing, and that the fact that it isn’t being nerfed will make the healing nerf hit Magplar healing a bit less on a percentage basis than it hits other classes.

The point isn’t that Purifying Light can’t be useful in some situations. It can. It’s that you can actually be successful at getting kills in quite a lot of PvP in this game right now without running the Magplars’ burst skill. This is indicative of the fact that they actually have effective sustained damage. Other classes just can’t do that right now, and must rely on burst. No other Magicka class can output sustained damage nearly as well as a Magplar. And even Dizzying spam actually isn’t as good at melting people as Jabs spam is—though it’s the closest. A class that you can already do well with using sustained damage is definitely going to benefit more from a nerf to healing than classes that rely entirely on burst damage and have clearly inferior sustained damage. For those other classes, their burst damage won’t be affected by a healing nerf, and their sustained damage likely still won’t be good enough to be viable anyways. For the Magplar, their sustained damage already is quite viable and will objectively become significantly better.

I also don’t really understand your point about that facing “pugs” doesn’t matter. The fact is that the PvP in this game is overwhelmingly designed to put you against “pugs.” You face random people in BGs—albeit with some skill-based matchmaking. And Cyrodiil and the IC just involve fights with whoever you happen to come across. If the sustained damage from Sweeps can destroy “pugs,” then Magplars have very viable sustained damage in virtually all facets of PvP. Other classes basically do not. A nerf to healing is a buff to sustained damage, so the class that will benefit the most from that is the class that already has the best sustained damage. And, right now, that is objectively Templars.

As for the off balance stuff, you’re talking about stuff that is beside the point. The point is that it combines off balance and a stun—guaranteeing that you get a stun in during the off balance time. Can Toppling Charge be dodged? Yeah, it can. But if you dodge it, then it won’t have triggered off balance yet. Whenever you do actually hit Toppling Charge, you proc off balance AND you stun. Both happen at the same time. So there really isn’t a situation where you are desperately trying and failing to land Toppling Charge to get a stun in after off-balance is triggered. All your talk of missing Toppling Charge is essentially beside the point. The issue is what ability makes it easiest to ensure you get a stun in during the off balance window. The answer is objectively Toppling Charge, and this is not debateable since it is the only ability that does both at once.

Also, in general, it has become clear from this that you apparently essentially only come at this from a dueling perspective. That is not most of the PvP in this game, and therefore this is leading you to repeatedly say things that are basically non-sensical outside of that context. Considering non-dueling contexts are the vast majority of PvP played in this game, focusing on how stuff will operate in duels in a discussion about PvP balance is honestly just silly (especially as dueling often is run with its own rules that ban tons of stuff—so dueling balance is basically regulated by the duelers themselves). As an example, the vast majority of PvP doesn’t exactly involve these completely structured offensive and defensive windows you’re talking about. Nor does it involve situations where you can do things like completely avoid Toppling Charge because you can always predict when it’s coming. You can’t always predict when you’ll be hit with a Toppling Charge in a BG, or a group setting, or when 1vXing. There’s just too many people and too much going on for some formulaic understanding of how a fight will progress to actually be accurate. Of course, better players are still better at predicting these things, but for example if you’re in a BG you will get hit plenty with Toppling Charge without a Purifying Light or Dark Flare coming right beforehand. And you will get hit with Toppling Charge from people who are behind or to the side of you who you therefore obviously couldn’t react to. Group settings just don’t involve the kind of formulaic structure of fights that you’re talking about. And almost all PvP in ESO involves multiple people on one or both sides. Your clear focus on dueling may also help explain why you seem to think Sweeps isn’t a significant heal. If you jump into the middle of several people and use Sweeps—which is something that will happen plenty in most PvP content in this game—the heal you get from it is will be massive, but obviously that won’t happen in a duel.

JayKwellen

Hmm. I'm personally not opposed to high damage sets, I even like Stuhns. I think the tank meta is cancer, and I'd much rather live in a meta where people actually have to worry about dying.

Still though, this is gonna be pretty nasty for some classes, and I'm particularly worried about how it will effect magblades.

Every other mag class in the game has a powerful burst heal available to them...except magblades. Magblades have only a small siphon heal which is conditional on attacks landing, a small HOT from swallow-soul which is also conditional on the attack landing, and that's about it. Dark cloak blades will at least have minor protection and another HoT. Outside the class there's Regen, which is a good HoT so long as it actually goes to you, and if you're desperate you could even add structured entropy too. So that gives us...4/5 HoT's to rotate through.

If you run all of swallow soul, entropy, dark cloak, siphoning attacks and Regeneration, that's a full bars worth of space you have to dedicate just for your healing abilities. Not to mention how fun trying to juggle 4/5 HoT's plus your other buffs will be when you've got an angry stamden or stamcro in your face. Maybe we'll just have to run all that plus refreshing path also to survive, just fill your entire backbar and press 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 every few seconds. If I had to guess though, I'd bet that even that wouldn't be enough to survive a burst combo from a high damage stam character whose reduced your effective armor to 0.

I get that the magblade is meant to focus on healing through damage (swallow soul/siphoning), and I actually think that's a really cool concept. However, once burst damage increases so enormously the lack of ability to burst heal is going to end the careers of many magblades.

In a meta with extremely high burst damage, the inability to burst heal is going to make survivability and almost all or nothing situation. You either completely avoid all incoming damage via cloak or shade, or you die. In practice, this will probably most often mean die, as not even the best magblades can avoid 100% of incoming damage, and literally nobody in the world plays with 100% perfect efficiency 100% of the time.

I'm extremely concerned that the new battlespirit healing reduction, the new high-damage sets, and the nerf to existing defensive sets, when combined with magblades already comparatively weak self-healing is going to put this class into a seriously depressing place.

I'm also biased and may be over-exaggerating. If someone could talk me out of my brewing depression over what's gonna happen to my class I would greatly appreciate it.

Hexyl

It's so stupid..
Why ZoS use buff with % for protection but Make those set item with rought number.

If stunh's favor will be in % that will not completly destroy light ans leather user..

Urzigurumash

My only issue with Stuhn's is how wide a gulf it may create between those with Major/Minor Protection, Potatoes, Spirit Mender, etc., and those without

Urzigurumash

JayKwellen wrote: »

If someone could talk me out of my brewing depression over what's gonna happen to my class I would greatly appreciate it.

Maybe this will cheer you up - from my view no class benefits less from the array of Mythic Items than MagNB

Lughlongarm

Urzigurumash wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

If someone could talk me out of my brewing depression over what's gonna happen to my class I would greatly appreciate it.

Maybe this will cheer you up - from my view no class benefits less from the array of Mythic Items than MagNB

What are you talking about? The boots are just perfect for NB, the sustain amulet also very good.
The speed ring is good on NB like on most classes.

Urzigurumash

Well I could definitely be wrong, it just seemed to me like MagDK and MagCro would benefit from the speed boots and rings more than MagNB. As for the sustain amulet, seems about equally good on every class, but inherently better for most stam classes, since running with low mag is less of a liability than running with low stam on a mag, since less than 50% stam on a mag might not even be enough to roll dodge, break free, etc, and only stam classes using a mag burst heal suffer much from running with less than 50% mag. I could be wrong about all that, just my impression that pretty much every class can make better use of these than MagNB

Lughlongarm

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Well I could definitely be wrong, it just seemed to me like MagDK and MagCro would benefit from the speed boots and rings more than MagNB. As for the sustain amulet, seems about equally good on every class, but inherently better for most stam classes, since running with low mag is less of a liability than running with low stam on a mag, since less than 50% stam on a mag might not even be enough to roll dodge, break free, etc, and only stam classes using a mag burst heal suffer much from running with less than 50% mag. I could be wrong about all that, just my impression that pretty much every class can make better use of these than MagNB

The speed ring, I agree, it is equally good on every class.

The sustain amulet, I think it is good for some stamina NB builds because they need both the stamina sustain and magicka sustain fir rapid cloaking. Many stam NB builds build for mgicka sustain specifically unlike most builds for stamina classes.

The boots are insane for magicka NB, because many builds actually prefer non-sprint, stealth movement with Concealed Weapon+ Accelerate. Not to be able to immob nor snare a mgicka NB, is a big deal. You can drop shade and Race Against Time (you can go with Channeled Acceleration instead). Probably a game changer if you ask me. Don't think any other class benefit more from the boots.