Stuhn’s Favor WHY?

FirmamentOfStars

nk125x wrote: »

nk125x wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

You want an OP magplar?

-2 piece troll king, even if they want to nerf it you'll still get 1k regen (2 light)
-5 piece Stunh (1 heavy, 1 med, 3 light)
-5 piece Eternal vigor (jewels, lightning sharpened staff and defending resto)

5k less resistance from elemental drain, 2~k from light armor passives, another 2k from sharpened and 13355 fron stuhn for a total of 22~k pen and 2k (+ at least 500 base hp regen) passive healing for using sweeps.

What a wonderful meta we are gonna have, right?

i would run 5 pieces stunh, 5 pieces new moon any monster and cp into dodge rolls.

All you need to do is dodge roll through them turn round and nuke them

oh and use precision weapons as no one willl have crit resistance

Nah not needed, 5 piece heavy new moon with non existent crit, but with the malacath 25% damage done ring

RiskyChalice863

SavageChain wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

You want an OP magplar?

-2 piece troll king, even if they want to nerf it you'll still get 1k regen (2 light)
-5 piece Stunh (1 heavy, 1 med, 3 light)
-5 piece Eternal vigor (jewels, lightning sharpened staff and defending resto)

5k less resistance from elemental drain, 2~k from light armor passives, another 2k from sharpened and 13355 fron stuhn for a total of 22~k pen and 2k (+ at least 500 base hp regen) passive healing for using sweeps.

What a wonderful meta we are gonna have, right?

Not a templar meta, because templar will feel weak stripped away some of their healing power. It will be a heavy armor new moon or fury, malacath ring and stunh meta with dizzy. Maybe they occasionally also transform to werewolves, which also have off balance. Magplar compared to that will be a joke...

Btw your magplar build is pretty weak just saying.

I don’t think it makes sense to think Magplar would be hit more than other classes by healing changes. Aside from MagSorcs, every class in the game relies pretty heavily on healing. And, in fact, I think the healing changes are probably a buff to Magplar, for the simple reason that I think Magplar will be hurt less than most other classes by it.

Why is that? Well, I believe that the way the Puncturing Sweeps heal functions, it won’t be affected by this change at all. After all, Puncturing Sweeps is a percent heal on damage—which will still be affected by -50% from Battle Spirit, not -60%—and I believe Battle Spirit isn’t then applied again to the heal. So the heal on Puncturing Sweeps will effectively bypass the PvP healing nerfs. So, considering that Puncturing Sweeps is a very significant component of Magplar healing, I think Magplar healing overall is going to be less hit than other classes’ healing. In other words, most classes will have *all* of their healing reduced by an additional 10%, while only *some* of Magplars’ healing will be.

Another factor is that less healing will make sustained pressure a bit better than it is now. Burst combos obviously aren’t affected by the healing reduction, since the whole point of a burst combo is that it kills before healing is relevant. But sustained pressure will be better since it will be quite a bit harder to heal through it. Normally, one would say this would improve DoTs. And it surely will. But, even so, DoTs are likely to still be pretty weak IMO. However, Magplars are one class that actually does a ton of sustained damage (Sweeps). It’ll become a lot harder to self-heal through Sweeps, which will make Magplar offense a good bit more effective. Other classes will obviously benefit too, but the more a class can output sustained pressure, the bigger a buff the healing reduction is to their offense.

This Stuhn’s set will be good for Magplars, but they definitely aren’t the only class that will be able to utilize it really well. That said, they are one of the several classes that can basically trigger off balance on demand with a single ability, so they will be one of the best classes at utilizing it.

SeaUnicorn

Qbiken wrote: »

With onslaught in the game and with this set having quite high downtime (since offbalance has a 15 seconds cooldown after the duration expires) it's ok.

Remember the set that gives major berserk when you break free, which no one really uses due to how overnerfed it got on previous pts? Let's not repeat that shall we?

It takes more than 15 seconds to re-spawn after you got 1-shot by OB combo, so in practice this set will have no downtime.

FirmamentOfStars

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

SavageChain wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

You want an OP magplar?

-2 piece troll king, even if they want to nerf it you'll still get 1k regen (2 light)
-5 piece Stunh (1 heavy, 1 med, 3 light)
-5 piece Eternal vigor (jewels, lightning sharpened staff and defending resto)

5k less resistance from elemental drain, 2~k from light armor passives, another 2k from sharpened and 13355 fron stuhn for a total of 22~k pen and 2k (+ at least 500 base hp regen) passive healing for using sweeps.

What a wonderful meta we are gonna have, right?

Not a templar meta, because templar will feel weak stripped away some of their healing power. It will be a heavy armor new moon or fury, malacath ring and stunh meta with dizzy. Maybe they occasionally also transform to werewolves, which also have off balance. Magplar compared to that will be a joke...

Btw your magplar build is pretty weak just saying.

I don’t think it makes sense to think Magplar would be hit more than other classes by healing changes. Aside from MagSorcs, every class in the game relies pretty heavily on healing. And, in fact, I think the healing changes are probably a buff to Magplar, for the simple reason that I think Magplar will be hurt less than most other classes by it.

Why is that? Well, I believe that the way the Puncturing Sweeps heal functions, it won’t be affected by this change at all. After all, Puncturing Sweeps is a percent heal on damage—which will still be affected by -50% from Battle Spirit, not -60%—and I believe Battle Spirit isn’t then applied again to the heal. So the heal on Puncturing Sweeps will effectively bypass the PvP healing nerfs. So, considering that Puncturing Sweeps is a very significant component of Magplar healing, I think Magplar healing overall is going to be less hit than other classes’ healing. In other words, most classes will have *all* of their healing reduced by an additional 10%, while only *some* of Magplars’ healing will be.

Another factor is that less healing will make sustained pressure a bit better than it is now. Burst combos obviously aren’t affected by the healing reduction, since the whole point of a burst combo is that it kills before healing is relevant. But sustained pressure will be better since it will be quite a bit harder to heal through it. Normally, one would say this would improve DoTs. And it surely will. But, even so, DoTs are likely to still be pretty weak IMO. However, Magplars are one class that actually does a ton of sustained damage (Sweeps). It’ll become a lot harder to self-heal through Sweeps, which will make Magplar offense a good bit more effective. Other classes will obviously benefit too, but the more a class can output sustained pressure, the bigger a buff the healing reduction is to their offense.

This Stuhn’s set will be good for Magplars, but they definitely aren’t the only class that will be able to utilize it really well. That said, they are one of the several classes that can basically trigger off balance on demand with a single ability, so they will be one of the best classes at utilizing it.

Well I can tell you why your argumentation doesnt really make sense.

Currently we have more or like 2 or 3 stamina classes, which are overhealing in PvP, namely stamdens, stamdks and stamnecroes. The first two do that, because as most stamclasses they reach very high vigor tooltips and combine it with major mending and further healing passives, additionally to them they have also several burst heal options. Stamnecro is a bit different, since they are overhealing thanks to their stacked mitigation sources, basically less in need of strong heals. All three have enough healing power to stay at 80-100% of their health bars at all time in PvP, meaning they are overhealing. compared to that magclasses like magplars, magdks and magnecros rely pretty much on their burst heals. Mostly they use it when low (because why would you use a burst heal at 80%), meaning they are already pressured and probably take more damage as if they arent low. Their burst heal if used at the right time, will heal them up to exactly 100% or lower (if they overhealed, that would mean they used their heal too early). With the healing changes they will have to heal earlier to get back to 100% or they will see how they usual burst heal doesnt get them as high as before, reliefing them less from the pressure. Stamina chars on the other hand use vigor like a buff or proactively, meaning that some of their heals is wasted anyway, called overhealing.

Puncturing sweeps might heal a bit, but its heal is only really significant in a situation, where you are overwhelming your enemy, knowing that the weak heal from it gets you back up since your enemy doesnt hit back. Against an equal matchup jabs will nowhere be a reliably healing source to stay on the offense for a longer time. Even extended ritual helps there more. So basically you get a few percent more healing on an unreliable pretty small healing source.

Sustained pressure in those game is a very confusing definition and people sadly confuse it a lot. It actualy should apply to a class relying on dot damage. Sadly dots were nerfed to a state you cant call them pressure anymore. Calling puncturing strikes sustained pressure therefore is nonsense, because its a spammable. Otherwise actually everey class spamming a spammable would have sustained pressure.

Last point why you are wrong is because you are saying they are one of a few classing being able to use it reliably. This set is good for any class with access to offbalance, meaning every stamina class in all conten can use it to its full extent thanks to dizzying swing. In cp actually every class can use it, since the cp passive tacticioner sets enemy offbalance too, so even magicka classes could use it easely. Even in no cp every stamina class has still dizzy to offbalance enemies, magdens have a spammable applying offbalance, magdks have offbalance built in the proc of flame lash. Offbalance is a wide spread debuff, so saying magplar can make great use of it is kind of nonsense, because pretty much every class can do that.

Gilvoth

instant death will be everywhere

Mortiis13

In the current live state this set is rly needed but After all the heal and defense monstersets nerf, oh boy...

All my stamchars for pvp are nords T_T

wheem_ESO

Mortiis13 wrote: »

In the current live state this set is rly needed but After all the heal and defense monstersets nerf, oh boy...

All my stamchars for pvp are nords T_T

If you use 3x Protective Jewelry, 5 Heavy Armor, Major Resolve/Ward, and your Nord Racial, you might actually have a couple thousand armor left when all is said and done. Light armor builds might as well be naked, though.

Yiko

Qbiken wrote: »

With onslaught in the game and with this set having quite high downtime (since offbalance has a 15 seconds cooldown after the duration expires) it's ok.

Remember the set that gives major berserk when you break free, which no one really uses due to how overnerfed it got on previous pts? Let's not repeat that shall we?

I feel like this is an extremely bad take on things. The Major Berserk break free set was fundamentally poorly designed to begin with, as you as the player didn't determine when you would proc the set - your enemies did. Also, squishier builds couldn't proc it as safely/reliably and transition that into meaningful burst.

This set you CAN control, and the proc condition just so happens to be attached to low skill/low user input but highly effective and oppressive abilities + combos.

Combined with the obviously overtuned Malacath ring, you have a recipe for low user input, passively tanky + extra health %, proc set using builds with highly effective damage in a meta where there is 20% healing reduction and the most popular defensive monster sets have been gutted.

People are supposed to build their characters to suit their preferences and reach their in-game goals, but sets like this are too valuable to not use. 33% uptime is too low? All that means is that people will turtle until their next burst attempt. In general, there will be noticeably less cerebral play and counterplay. At the same time, that uptime is actually limited to the TARGET and not tied to yourself. You can swap targets and get full uptime on the pen.

Purifying Light/POTL lasts 6 seconds, Toppling Charge activates off balance and stuns the target, off balance lasts for 7s, throw in Crescent Sweep + Jabs, collect AP.
Btw at 3 Ult gen / second and with Dawn's Wrath 5% cost reduction + passive ult gen, Crescent Sweep will be up every 22s.

Just doesn't seem like smart or healthy game design IMO.

MentalxHammer

Meh it has counter play and doesnt increase heals like clever alch. There's better sets.

Orchish

2 – Adds 129 Weapon Damage
2 – Adds 129 Spell Damage
3 – Adds 1487 Physical Penetration
3 – Adds 1487 Spell Penetration
4 – Adds 129 Weapon Damage
4 – Adds 129 Spell Damage
5 – Increases your Physical and Spell Penetration by 13355 against Off-Balance enemies.

Kadoin

I always run 9k resist, so its no problem for me.

However, I think the set is misguided. If the goal is to make a hybrid set, penetration is not the stat they should be aiming for, but instead crit. This is a set that will just go the way of New Moon Acoloyte: provide a minor buff to hybrids, but a major buff to pure builds.

It literally makes no sense when true hybrids either suffer from a lack of crit or a lack of sustain, and they hit sustain again in the PTS, so most hybrid builds will be DoA PvE and PvP regardless of the set.

Well, doesn't matter to me since I can't even log into the game half the time I want to play

Maxdevil

Stam have onslaught that mag classes cannot have so I think it’s fine

katorga

SavageChain wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Reminder that Off-Balance is consumed and removed by a single heavy attack, and a long cool-down ensued.

On face value I'm not entirely sure how well it will work for stamina dizzy builds because a) they have onslaught anyway and b) you normally use the 2h heavy attack to stun your target and get resources back. Also means sacrificing a Weapon Damage set (NMA, Fury) which means reduced heals in a patch where heals are already getting a 10% nerf. I'm not saying it won't be good or that it won't become meta, but I'm saying that it's hard to foresee it given the reasons mentioned above and there's some obvious downsides to using it.

I think it is indeed far more potent on mag builds in general and especially magplars like @Joinovikova is saying because mag builds hardly ever heavy attack which means you're more likely to get the full duration benefit. The fact that Cresent Sweep ult is instant and cheap, works extremely well too. Purifying Light -> Topple-> Crescent-> Sweeps spam is going to be insane damage.

It's Spinner on steroids. But I want to see it before shouting for nerfs to be honest.

It is not consumed anymore by heavy attacks, but the debuff is purgable and the CD is indeed long.

You dont need to away the cooldown to finish, when you kill your enemy anyway.

Maulkin wrote: »

Reminder that Off-Balance is consumed and removed by a single heavy attack, and a long cool-down ensued.

On face value I'm not entirely sure how well it will work for stamina dizzy builds because a) they have onslaught anyway and b) you normally use the 2h heavy attack to stun your target and get resources back. Also means sacrificing a Weapon Damage set (NMA, Fury) which means reduced heals in a patch where heals are already getting a 10% nerf. I'm not saying it won't be good or that it won't become meta, but I'm saying that it's hard to foresee it given the reasons mentioned above and there's some obvious downsides to using it.

I think it is indeed far more potent on mag builds in general and especially magplars like @Joinovikova is saying because mag builds hardly ever heavy attack which means you're more likely to get the full duration benefit. The fact that Cresent Sweep ult is instant and cheap, works extremely well too. Purifying Light -> Topple-> Crescent-> Sweeps spam is going to be insane damage.

It's Spinner on steroids. But I want to see it before shouting for nerfs to be honest.

It will be very effective on stam, because you do not have to rely on onslaught as ult anymore and can kill stuff without ult or a different ultimate. NMA is mostly already frontbarred, so changing the weapon damage from this set to 13k pen is more than worth it and more damage. Half of the stamina classes are the least affected by the healing nerf, since they have ridiculous tankyness, therefore are overhealing. As mentioned before magpalr will feel the healing nerf, therefore will feel underwhelming compared to stamina. The combo still might be potent, but not as viable or strong as on stamina.

This is definitely a stamina patch.

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Meh it has counter play and doesnt increase heals like clever alch. There's better sets.

We'll see. It look super fun to me. Roll dodge through a group, and anyone not on off balance cooldown is in serious trouble.

NMA+Stuhns+Bosmer nets you around 18K pen on a roll dodge off balance. Throw in a monster 1 piece penetration bonus, and up to 19.5K. Sharpened takes it up to 22K - about 30% more damage. Plus 10% from exploiter. That much pen is probably overkill, but you get the picture.

That leaves one slot for the speed or brutality mythic.

I'll have to dust off my spin2win bosmer stam sorc for this.

Sanguinor2

katorga wrote: »

We'll see. It look super fun to me. Roll dodge through a group, and anyone not on off balance cooldown is in serious trouble.

NMA+Stuhns+Bosmer nets you around 18K pen on a roll dodge off balance. Throw in a monster 1 piece penetration bonus, and up to 19.5K. Sharpened takes it up to 22K - about 30% more damage. Plus 10% from exploiter. That much pen is probably overkill, but you get the picture.

That leaves one slot for the speed or brutality mythic.

I'll have to dust off my spin2win bosmer stam sorc for this.

You can do it on a stamcro with colossus and balorgh for even more fun^^ less mobility tho.

GetAgrippa

Small scale No-CP this patch is going to be a disaster. All I play are bgs. But I'm definitely going to tap out this patch. What's the point when you can't heal through anything and getting 1/2 shot by carry sets.

Maulkin

GetAgrippa wrote: »

Small scale No-CP this patch is going to be a disaster. All I play are bgs. But I'm definitely going to tap out this patch. What's the point when you can't heal through anything and getting 1/2 shot by carry sets.

I pretty much only play BGs too and I'm also sceptical. Everyone will be getting killed faster than an FPS game.

The problem was passive tankiness not healing. Not even armor, since most people were running medium/light builds anyway. And healing is dogsh** in no-cp already.

Vaoh

Oh well you see.... this is perfectly balanced according to the power budgets....

Mayrael

If it stays like this I'm not interested in PvP anymore. What happened with counter play? What happened with standardisation? What happened with skillful gameplay? We are going back to dizzy meta where 1st one to land dizzy wins. No thanks...

Xarc

lol, this set.

"
- community : please zos do something against tank meta
- zenimax: ok, we'll make a set with 16k penetration
- community : wtf
"

Mayrael

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Dear Chef, to counter tank meta we need soultions targeted in high resistance builds not in general in everyone who has resistances, we need soultions that are highly effective against high resistance targets and not effective against low resistance targets.

E.g. you ignore (0.1*target resistances)^2 of your target resistances so vs someone with 30k resists you would gain 9k penetration, vs someone with 20k resists you would gain 4k penetration, vs someone with 10k resists you would gain 1k penetration and this would be minimum pen you can get from this set.

katorga

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

We'll see. It look super fun to me. Roll dodge through a group, and anyone not on off balance cooldown is in serious trouble.

NMA+Stuhns+Bosmer nets you around 18K pen on a roll dodge off balance. Throw in a monster 1 piece penetration bonus, and up to 19.5K. Sharpened takes it up to 22K - about 30% more damage. Plus 10% from exploiter. That much pen is probably overkill, but you get the picture.

That leaves one slot for the speed or brutality mythic.

I'll have to dust off my spin2win bosmer stam sorc for this.

You can do it on a stamcro with colossus and balorgh for even more fun^^ less mobility tho.

That speed combined with openworld server performance is the highest mitigation in the game. Gotta be stamsorc.

nublife01

they shouldve came out with a different set and just buffed spriggan. like why the ***.

RiskyChalice863

SavageChain wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

SavageChain wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

You want an OP magplar?

-2 piece troll king, even if they want to nerf it you'll still get 1k regen (2 light)
-5 piece Stunh (1 heavy, 1 med, 3 light)
-5 piece Eternal vigor (jewels, lightning sharpened staff and defending resto)

5k less resistance from elemental drain, 2~k from light armor passives, another 2k from sharpened and 13355 fron stuhn for a total of 22~k pen and 2k (+ at least 500 base hp regen) passive healing for using sweeps.

What a wonderful meta we are gonna have, right?

Not a templar meta, because templar will feel weak stripped away some of their healing power. It will be a heavy armor new moon or fury, malacath ring and stunh meta with dizzy. Maybe they occasionally also transform to werewolves, which also have off balance. Magplar compared to that will be a joke...

Btw your magplar build is pretty weak just saying.

I don’t think it makes sense to think Magplar would be hit more than other classes by healing changes. Aside from MagSorcs, every class in the game relies pretty heavily on healing. And, in fact, I think the healing changes are probably a buff to Magplar, for the simple reason that I think Magplar will be hurt less than most other classes by it.

Why is that? Well, I believe that the way the Puncturing Sweeps heal functions, it won’t be affected by this change at all. After all, Puncturing Sweeps is a percent heal on damage—which will still be affected by -50% from Battle Spirit, not -60%—and I believe Battle Spirit isn’t then applied again to the heal. So the heal on Puncturing Sweeps will effectively bypass the PvP healing nerfs. So, considering that Puncturing Sweeps is a very significant component of Magplar healing, I think Magplar healing overall is going to be less hit than other classes’ healing. In other words, most classes will have *all* of their healing reduced by an additional 10%, while only *some* of Magplars’ healing will be.

Another factor is that less healing will make sustained pressure a bit better than it is now. Burst combos obviously aren’t affected by the healing reduction, since the whole point of a burst combo is that it kills before healing is relevant. But sustained pressure will be better since it will be quite a bit harder to heal through it. Normally, one would say this would improve DoTs. And it surely will. But, even so, DoTs are likely to still be pretty weak IMO. However, Magplars are one class that actually does a ton of sustained damage (Sweeps). It’ll become a lot harder to self-heal through Sweeps, which will make Magplar offense a good bit more effective. Other classes will obviously benefit too, but the more a class can output sustained pressure, the bigger a buff the healing reduction is to their offense.

This Stuhn’s set will be good for Magplars, but they definitely aren’t the only class that will be able to utilize it really well. That said, they are one of the several classes that can basically trigger off balance on demand with a single ability, so they will be one of the best classes at utilizing it.

Well I can tell you why your argumentation doesnt really make sense.

Currently we have more or like 2 or 3 stamina classes, which are overhealing in PvP, namely stamdens, stamdks and stamnecroes. The first two do that, because as most stamclasses they reach very high vigor tooltips and combine it with major mending and further healing passives, additionally to them they have also several burst heal options. Stamnecro is a bit different, since they are overhealing thanks to their stacked mitigation sources, basically less in need of strong heals. All three have enough healing power to stay at 80-100% of their health bars at all time in PvP, meaning they are overhealing. compared to that magclasses like magplars, magdks and magnecros rely pretty much on their burst heals. Mostly they use it when low (because why would you use a burst heal at 80%), meaning they are already pressured and probably take more damage as if they arent low. Their burst heal if used at the right time, will heal them up to exactly 100% or lower (if they overhealed, that would mean they used their heal too early). With the healing changes they will have to heal earlier to get back to 100% or they will see how they usual burst heal doesnt get them as high as before, reliefing them less from the pressure. Stamina chars on the other hand use vigor like a buff or proactively, meaning that some of their heals is wasted anyway, called overhealing.

Puncturing sweeps might heal a bit, but its heal is only really significant in a situation, where you are overwhelming your enemy, knowing that the weak heal from it gets you back up since your enemy doesnt hit back. Against an equal matchup jabs will nowhere be a reliably healing source to stay on the offense for a longer time. Even extended ritual helps there more. So basically you get a few percent more healing on an unreliable pretty small healing source.

Sustained pressure in those game is a very confusing definition and people sadly confuse it a lot. It actualy should apply to a class relying on dot damage. Sadly dots were nerfed to a state you cant call them pressure anymore. Calling puncturing strikes sustained pressure therefore is nonsense, because its a spammable. Otherwise actually everey class spamming a spammable would have sustained pressure.

Last point why you are wrong is because you are saying they are one of a few classing being able to use it reliably. This set is good for any class with access to offbalance, meaning every stamina class in all conten can use it to its full extent thanks to dizzying swing. In cp actually every class can use it, since the cp passive tacticioner sets enemy offbalance too, so even magicka classes could use it easely. Even in no cp every stamina class has still dizzy to offbalance enemies, magdens have a spammable applying offbalance, magdks have offbalance built in the proc of flame lash. Offbalance is a wide spread debuff, so saying magplar can make great use of it is kind of nonsense, because pretty much every class can do that.

A few points:

1. I don’t see how your point about overhealing makes sense.

- For one, both magicka and stamina classes have burst heals and HoTs. So there’s not some dichotomy where magicka uses burst heals and stamina uses HoTs. Magicka classes have HoTs, and Stamina classes have Rally, so everything you said about burst heals and HoTs applies to both.

- Secondly, just as a magicka player would optimally not burst heal in a way that makes them overheal, a stamina player would optimally not have built into healing so much that they’re overhealing a ton (if someone is overhealing a ton, then they would very likely be better off investing more in sources of damage that provide more damage but don’t increase healing—such as penetration, minor berserk, sources of additional weapon damage that only affect certain types of attacks, etc.).

- More importantly, I don’t see how the fact that stamina classes may overheal by doing things like pre-casting Vigor really matters at all for the purposes of what we’re discussing. The point is that when stamina classes *aren’t* overhealing (i.e. the times where they really need the healing to stay alive), their healing will be reduced just like a Magplar’s would be when they really need healing. In fact, stamina class’s burst heal doing less healing is arguably worse for them, since the way Rally functions means they can’t do consecutive burst heals—if their burst heal leaves them still low, they can’t just use another one.

- And, of course, it’s also worth noting that those stamina classes that you say are overhealing a ton will be overhealing a lot less with so much less healing, as they’re much less likely to have HoTs that heal more than the incoming damage.

So I just think the whole overhealing argument is essentially a made-up argument that simply gets you to the conclusion you want to get to.

2. Puncturing Sweeps heals much more than “a bit”

Puncturing Sweeps heals quite a lot. Granted, it can be mitigated by people blocking or avoiding the damage, so it’s not entirely consistent. But it’s a very significant heal, and makes up a large percentage of a Magplar’s self healing. As an example, let’s just take my current Magplar. I’m going to assume it is no-CP, because that’s the PvP I tend to play, but I don’t think CP would fundamentally affect the following in any significant way.

Fully buffed, my Extended Ritual has a tooltip of 2543 every 2 seconds. That’s 1272 healing per second, which would turn to 636 healing per second with the current Battle Spirit. I have 33.7% crit rate, with 50% critical healing. Taking that into account, Extended Ritual will average 743 healing per second on me.

Meanwhile, my Sweeps tooltip is 2979 per hit (with four hits, obviously), with 43% of damage being returned as healing. Obviously, the amount of healing this does depends on the tankiness of the person I’m attacking. But here’s the deal. In order to only do 743 healing per second while I’m using Sweeps, my Sweeps would have to do only 1728 damage. Assuming an opponent in full impen gear, that would require my opponent to have about 74% damage mitigation on top of Battle Spirit. And I’ve got 8243 spell penetration. Sweeps will almost always do more damage than that—and usually a lot more.

Just to put some color on this, let’s say I’m facing a player who has 30k spell resistance, minor protection, major evasion, and full impen gear (again, all in no-CP, so 30k spell resistance is really high). This is a very tanky individual who will limit the self-heal on Sweeps by mitigating lots of damage. If I hit that person with a full Sweeps, it will on average do 3071 damage. I will therefore average 1321 healing from that. That is still almost *twice* the healing per second on Extended Ritual. Yes, you can construct a scenario where that same person is also on their back bar blocking with a sword and board, and therefore Sweeps actually provides a little less healing than Extended Ritual. And yes, if you only connect on that tanky person with 1 or 2 of the Sweeps hits, then the healing would be lower. And those things do happen. But there’s also many scenarios where you’re hitting multiple people with your Sweeps and the healing scales up even more, as well as many scenarios where you aren’t attacking someone with 30k spell resistance, minor protection, major evasion, and full impen gear.

Overall, it seems quite obvious to me that Magplars that are on the offensive are typically getting significantly more self-healing from their Sweeps than they are from Extended Ritual. So I just don’t see how you’ve concluded that it’s a “pretty small heal” that is overshadowed by Extended Ritual’s healing. It’s just factually incorrect. It’s simply objective fact that the healing from Sweeps is a very significant portion of a Magplar’s self healing when they’re on the attack. And it is self healing that will not be nerfed by this change to Battle Spirit.

3. You’re missing the point about sustained damage

You can classify it as whatever you want. The point is that less healing doesn’t make it easier to kill someone with a burst combo, while it *does* make it easier to kill someone with sustained damage. This is a very obvious fact, since healing is irrelevant to whether a burst combo kills you, while healing obviously mitigates sustained damage. This means that a nerf to healing will benefit classes and builds that rely on sustained damage significantly more than it will benefit ones that rely on burst damage. Magplars do have burst in their kit, but ultimately they rely a lot on Sweeps, which is just inherently a sustained damage ability rather than a burst ability, since it is a multi-hit channel. So nerfs to healing will benefit Sweeps quite a bit, which means Magplars will benefit from it much more than classes whose offensive kit is more based around making a bunch of damage hit all at once.

4. It is not nonsense to say Magplars will be one of the best classes at utilizing Stuhn’s

First of all, I simply did not say that “they are one of a few classes being able to use it reliably.”

That aside, what I did say is that “they are one of the several classes that can basically trigger off balance on demand with a single ability.” And that is true. Yes, stamina classes can also do that, with Dizzying Swing. Realistically, though, that doesn’t apply to Stamplars, because they almost certainly won’t be using Dizzying Swing and therefore will not be able to utilize Stuhn’s very easily. Yes, Magdens can do it too. But Magplars can definitely proc off balance more easily than Magcros, MagSorcs, MagDKs, Magblades, and Stamplars. MagDKs have relatively easy access to off balance, but even that is a two-step process, rather than triggering off balance with a single ability. Magblades have access to off-balance, but it is not reliable, since it doesn’t work if you’re pulled out of cloak. Magcros and MagSorcs basically don’t have directly access to it. And Stamplars don’t have access to an easy off balance trigger unless they abandon Jabs or actually run Toppling Charge despite it being a magicka ability—either of which isn’t really ideal.

And even comparing to Magdens and Stam classes using Dizzying Swing, I’d argue Magplars are better able to utilize Stuhn’s. This is primarily because their off balance trigger also stuns the person at the same time. This will make it easier to actually utilize the burst window that Stuhn’s provides. With both Magdens and Dizzying Swing, there will be some potential counterplay, where you can turtle up and/or avoid the Stuhn’s burst after you’re set off balance. Granted, the window will be very short with Dizzying Swing (since the next one will stun you). But there won’t be any such window with a Magplar, since you will be stunned. And that’s not even mentioning the fact that, compared to Dizzying Swing, Magplars will be able to immediately proc off balance on someone who isn’t already in melee range.

YandereGirlfriend

Vaoh wrote: »

Oh well you see.... this is perfectly balanced according to the power budgets....

Indeed, somehow this ridiculous set is within their "power budget" (such an awful term) but Grundwulf was OP and had to go!

Giljabrar

Bump for posterity

FirmamentOfStars

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

SavageChain wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

SavageChain wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

You want an OP magplar?

-2 piece troll king, even if they want to nerf it you'll still get 1k regen (2 light)
-5 piece Stunh (1 heavy, 1 med, 3 light)
-5 piece Eternal vigor (jewels, lightning sharpened staff and defending resto)

5k less resistance from elemental drain, 2~k from light armor passives, another 2k from sharpened and 13355 fron stuhn for a total of 22~k pen and 2k (+ at least 500 base hp regen) passive healing for using sweeps.

What a wonderful meta we are gonna have, right?

Not a templar meta, because templar will feel weak stripped away some of their healing power. It will be a heavy armor new moon or fury, malacath ring and stunh meta with dizzy. Maybe they occasionally also transform to werewolves, which also have off balance. Magplar compared to that will be a joke...

Btw your magplar build is pretty weak just saying.

I don’t think it makes sense to think Magplar would be hit more than other classes by healing changes. Aside from MagSorcs, every class in the game relies pretty heavily on healing. And, in fact, I think the healing changes are probably a buff to Magplar, for the simple reason that I think Magplar will be hurt less than most other classes by it.

Why is that? Well, I believe that the way the Puncturing Sweeps heal functions, it won’t be affected by this change at all. After all, Puncturing Sweeps is a percent heal on damage—which will still be affected by -50% from Battle Spirit, not -60%—and I believe Battle Spirit isn’t then applied again to the heal. So the heal on Puncturing Sweeps will effectively bypass the PvP healing nerfs. So, considering that Puncturing Sweeps is a very significant component of Magplar healing, I think Magplar healing overall is going to be less hit than other classes’ healing. In other words, most classes will have *all* of their healing reduced by an additional 10%, while only *some* of Magplars’ healing will be.

Another factor is that less healing will make sustained pressure a bit better than it is now. Burst combos obviously aren’t affected by the healing reduction, since the whole point of a burst combo is that it kills before healing is relevant. But sustained pressure will be better since it will be quite a bit harder to heal through it. Normally, one would say this would improve DoTs. And it surely will. But, even so, DoTs are likely to still be pretty weak IMO. However, Magplars are one class that actually does a ton of sustained damage (Sweeps). It’ll become a lot harder to self-heal through Sweeps, which will make Magplar offense a good bit more effective. Other classes will obviously benefit too, but the more a class can output sustained pressure, the bigger a buff the healing reduction is to their offense.

This Stuhn’s set will be good for Magplars, but they definitely aren’t the only class that will be able to utilize it really well. That said, they are one of the several classes that can basically trigger off balance on demand with a single ability, so they will be one of the best classes at utilizing it.

Well I can tell you why your argumentation doesnt really make sense.

Currently we have more or like 2 or 3 stamina classes, which are overhealing in PvP, namely stamdens, stamdks and stamnecroes. The first two do that, because as most stamclasses they reach very high vigor tooltips and combine it with major mending and further healing passives, additionally to them they have also several burst heal options. Stamnecro is a bit different, since they are overhealing thanks to their stacked mitigation sources, basically less in need of strong heals. All three have enough healing power to stay at 80-100% of their health bars at all time in PvP, meaning they are overhealing. compared to that magclasses like magplars, magdks and magnecros rely pretty much on their burst heals. Mostly they use it when low (because why would you use a burst heal at 80%), meaning they are already pressured and probably take more damage as if they arent low. Their burst heal if used at the right time, will heal them up to exactly 100% or lower (if they overhealed, that would mean they used their heal too early). With the healing changes they will have to heal earlier to get back to 100% or they will see how they usual burst heal doesnt get them as high as before, reliefing them less from the pressure. Stamina chars on the other hand use vigor like a buff or proactively, meaning that some of their heals is wasted anyway, called overhealing.

Puncturing sweeps might heal a bit, but its heal is only really significant in a situation, where you are overwhelming your enemy, knowing that the weak heal from it gets you back up since your enemy doesnt hit back. Against an equal matchup jabs will nowhere be a reliably healing source to stay on the offense for a longer time. Even extended ritual helps there more. So basically you get a few percent more healing on an unreliable pretty small healing source.

Sustained pressure in those game is a very confusing definition and people sadly confuse it a lot. It actualy should apply to a class relying on dot damage. Sadly dots were nerfed to a state you cant call them pressure anymore. Calling puncturing strikes sustained pressure therefore is nonsense, because its a spammable. Otherwise actually everey class spamming a spammable would have sustained pressure.

Last point why you are wrong is because you are saying they are one of a few classing being able to use it reliably. This set is good for any class with access to offbalance, meaning every stamina class in all conten can use it to its full extent thanks to dizzying swing. In cp actually every class can use it, since the cp passive tacticioner sets enemy offbalance too, so even magicka classes could use it easely. Even in no cp every stamina class has still dizzy to offbalance enemies, magdens have a spammable applying offbalance, magdks have offbalance built in the proc of flame lash. Offbalance is a wide spread debuff, so saying magplar can make great use of it is kind of nonsense, because pretty much every class can do that.

A few points:

1. I don’t see how your point about overhealing makes sense.

- For one, both magicka and stamina classes have burst heals and HoTs. So there’s not some dichotomy where magicka uses burst heals and stamina uses HoTs. Magicka classes have HoTs, and Stamina classes have Rally, so everything you said about burst heals and HoTs applies to both.

- Secondly, just as a magicka player would optimally not burst heal in a way that makes them overheal, a stamina player would optimally not have built into healing so much that they’re overhealing a ton (if someone is overhealing a ton, then they would very likely be better off investing more in sources of damage that provide more damage but don’t increase healing—such as penetration, minor berserk, sources of additional weapon damage that only affect certain types of attacks, etc.).

- More importantly, I don’t see how the fact that stamina classes may overheal by doing things like pre-casting Vigor really matters at all for the purposes of what we’re discussing. The point is that when stamina classes *aren’t* overhealing (i.e. the times where they really need the healing to stay alive), their healing will be reduced just like a Magplar’s would be when they really need healing. In fact, stamina class’s burst heal doing less healing is arguably worse for them, since the way Rally functions means they can’t do consecutive burst heals—if their burst heal leaves them still low, they can’t just use another one.

- And, of course, it’s also worth noting that those stamina classes that you say are overhealing a ton will be overhealing a lot less with so much less healing, as they’re much less likely to have HoTs that heal more than the incoming damage.

So I just think the whole overhealing argument is essentially a made-up argument that simply gets you to the conclusion you want to get to.

2. Puncturing Sweeps heals much more than “a bit”

Puncturing Sweeps heals quite a lot. Granted, it can be mitigated by people blocking or avoiding the damage, so it’s not entirely consistent. But it’s a very significant heal, and makes up a large percentage of a Magplar’s self healing. As an example, let’s just take my current Magplar. I’m going to assume it is no-CP, because that’s the PvP I tend to play, but I don’t think CP would fundamentally affect the following in any significant way.

Fully buffed, my Extended Ritual has a tooltip of 2543 every 2 seconds. That’s 1272 healing per second, which would turn to 636 healing per second with the current Battle Spirit. I have 33.7% crit rate, with 50% critical healing. Taking that into account, Extended Ritual will average 743 healing per second on me.

Meanwhile, my Sweeps tooltip is 2979 per hit (with four hits, obviously), with 43% of damage being returned as healing. Obviously, the amount of healing this does depends on the tankiness of the person I’m attacking. But here’s the deal. In order to only do 743 healing per second while I’m using Sweeps, my Sweeps would have to do only 1728 damage. Assuming an opponent in full impen gear, that would require my opponent to have about 74% damage mitigation on top of Battle Spirit. And I’ve got 8243 spell penetration. Sweeps will almost always do more damage than that—and usually a lot more.

Just to put some color on this, let’s say I’m facing a player who has 30k spell resistance, minor protection, major evasion, and full impen gear (again, all in no-CP, so 30k spell resistance is really high). This is a very tanky individual who will limit the self-heal on Sweeps by mitigating lots of damage. If I hit that person with a full Sweeps, it will on average do 3071 damage. I will therefore average 1321 healing from that. That is still almost *twice* the healing per second on Extended Ritual. Yes, you can construct a scenario where that same person is also on their back bar blocking with a sword and board, and therefore Sweeps actually provides a little less healing than Extended Ritual. And yes, if you only connect on that tanky person with 1 or 2 of the Sweeps hits, then the healing would be lower. And those things do happen. But there’s also many scenarios where you’re hitting multiple people with your Sweeps and the healing scales up even more, as well as many scenarios where you aren’t attacking someone with 30k spell resistance, minor protection, major evasion, and full impen gear.

Overall, it seems quite obvious to me that Magplars that are on the offensive are typically getting significantly more self-healing from their Sweeps than they are from Extended Ritual. So I just don’t see how you’ve concluded that it’s a “pretty small heal” that is overshadowed by Extended Ritual’s healing. It’s just factually incorrect. It’s simply objective fact that the healing from Sweeps is a very significant portion of a Magplar’s self healing when they’re on the attack. And it is self healing that will not be nerfed by this change to Battle Spirit.

3. You’re missing the point about sustained damage

You can classify it as whatever you want. The point is that less healing doesn’t make it easier to kill someone with a burst combo, while it *does* make it easier to kill someone with sustained damage. This is a very obvious fact, since healing is irrelevant to whether a burst combo kills you, while healing obviously mitigates sustained damage. This means that a nerf to healing will benefit classes and builds that rely on sustained damage significantly more than it will benefit ones that rely on burst damage. Magplars do have burst in their kit, but ultimately they rely a lot on Sweeps, which is just inherently a sustained damage ability rather than a burst ability, since it is a multi-hit channel. So nerfs to healing will benefit Sweeps quite a bit, which means Magplars will benefit from it much more than classes whose offensive kit is more based around making a bunch of damage hit all at once.

4. It is not nonsense to say Magplars will be one of the best classes at utilizing Stuhn’s

First of all, I simply did not say that “they are one of a few classes being able to use it reliably.”

That aside, what I did say is that “they are one of the several classes that can basically trigger off balance on demand with a single ability.” And that is true. Yes, stamina classes can also do that, with Dizzying Swing. Realistically, though, that doesn’t apply to Stamplars, because they almost certainly won’t be using Dizzying Swing and therefore will not be able to utilize Stuhn’s very easily. Yes, Magdens can do it too. But Magplars can definitely proc off balance more easily than Magcros, MagSorcs, MagDKs, Magblades, and Stamplars. MagDKs have relatively easy access to off balance, but even that is a two-step process, rather than triggering off balance with a single ability. Magblades have access to off-balance, but it is not reliable, since it doesn’t work if you’re pulled out of cloak. Magcros and MagSorcs basically don’t have directly access to it. And Stamplars don’t have access to an easy off balance trigger unless they abandon Jabs or actually run Toppling Charge despite it being a magicka ability—either of which isn’t really ideal.

And even comparing to Magdens and Stam classes using Dizzying Swing, I’d argue Magplars are better able to utilize Stuhn’s. This is primarily because their off balance trigger also stuns the person at the same time. This will make it easier to actually utilize the burst window that Stuhn’s provides. With both Magdens and Dizzying Swing, there will be some potential counterplay, where you can turtle up and/or avoid the Stuhn’s burst after you’re set off balance. Granted, the window will be very short with Dizzying Swing (since the next one will stun you). But there won’t be any such window with a Magplar, since you will be stunned. And that’s not even mentioning the fact that, compared to Dizzying Swing, Magplars will be able to immediately proc off balance on someone who isn’t already in melee range.

Well your arguments are petty easely countered though...

1. Stamina is overhealing, because they have both strong hots and burst heals, meanwhile magclasses in most cases do not use both. Thanks to the high scaling of weapon damage, vigor, rally and all other stamina heals have innate more healing than their magicka counterparts. An example would be the wardens skill fungal growth. On a typical warden build, the magicka morph is a pretty bad heal, meanwhile the stamina morph on a typical stamina build actually is a decent and viable heal.

Stamina players tend to use their hots mostly proactively, meaning before engaging with a combo to get away with high health after finishing the combo. Mostly they easely just outheal the damage of dots on them, when they enemy i son defense.

2. You just have proven with your math, that sweeps actually heals less than extended ritual. Your end results against a tanky buidl resulted in almost twice the heal from ritual or something along these lines were your words. Now in a normal 1v1 you will never use sweeps every second. Your argument is based on the comparison of hps of sweeps and ritual, but your ritual has 100% uptime in a fight, meanwhile you will never use sweeps as much between all your buffs and other damage skills. In an even matchup we spread the offensive windows evenly, so that you and your enemy both have an offensive window, where your enemy is defending or at least rebuffing. So this means half your time you are offensive and half the time defensive. Your offensive window most likely includes entropy and vamp bane or solar barrage as dor pressure, than puryfying light, followed by an ult when ready a stun and 3-4 times jabs. Basically half the time of your offensive window is jabs, threrefore a 4th of your whole fighting time is jabs. Your own statement is, that jabs has almost twice the hps than extended ritual, but only has an uptime of 25% meanwhile ritual has 100%. This makes extended ritual actually heal more than twice than jabs.

3. Again you say sweeps is a channel and therefore sustained pressure. Lets add two dots and sweeps as you total sustained damage, but isnt that the same as a stamdk with two dots and spamming dizzying swing? both ahve two dots, so basically you are comparing jabs spam with dizzy spam. So basically you are saying spamming a spammable is sustained damage, therefore every class actually has sustained damage. This argument of saying magplar profits from it more because it has sustained damage is therefore nonsense. There is no sustained damage in the form you mean in the game anymore, since dots were nerfed to the ground. Every class tries to burst down people, some have shorter burst combos, some others have longers. Magplars burst comes from the crescent and puryfying light, other classes have their own with blastbones, shalks, curse or whatever. Some classes come closer to one shot combos, meanwhile magplars do not. their burst comes after 6 seconds and they need to fill it up. Normally with precasted dots and the jabs spam, but thats just comparable to somebody spamming dizzy and getting of their shalks or blastbones in between. The concept of sustained pressure just doesnt exist anymore, so all classes benefit the same from the healing reduction.

4. You are right, templars have a cc tool with offbalance, but same counts for every stam class with dizzying swing (if you forgot, that dizzy stuns on second use or every weaved medium attack on offbalance enemies stuns, which actually is more dangerously than being cced by topppling charge, since the cc is off global cooldown and the hard hitting follow up comes immediately and not a second later). Therefore magplar profits the same as all stamclasses and together with a few other magclasses like wardens. Btw many stamplars use toppling charge too. Half of the maglcasses though were left behind, since they have no access to offbalance as easely as magplars. So basically 75% of all classes have an easy and reliable tool to set enemies offbalance.

Tessitura

So after testing it I can honestly say this is a over tuned set. Its basically a free ult, and let me tell you, you have to go on the defensive after it lands or you are dead. It honestly feels like they wanted to punish magicka classes for some reason after playing with it. Most magicka classes i fought I pretty much wipped the floor with them unless they were vamps and mist formed away. When I played magicka with it I had to work much harder to use it, and to get away from it. I am not saying people and magicka can't handle this, it's possible, but the average player is going to get crushed by this set, it's ridiculously harsh and any set that's only counter is to hit your skill cap and work as hard as possible to out play it, is a bad set. The player should be whats making you do that, not the set.

I hope it gets tuned down because of how unhealthy this set will be for build diversity and for your average player. I get that the idea is that it's a bunker buster, but it's not used on just bunkers, it's used on farm houses and villages too.

If I were to give a suggestion on how to change it, it would be to not make it a flat rate of pen, make it scale based on the resist the target has, or just a flat % of pen. Both options punish bunkers and don't murder all none heavy builds instantly. Basically, to sum up, you either make the amount of pen you get directly proportional to the amount the target has, or you get lets say a flat 15-20% pen meaning the higher the pen, the more they are affected by it.

wheem_ESO

Fixing the problem of "unkillable" tank builds will require changes to CP, not simply putting in ridiculous sets that cause non-tanks to get obliterated.

olsborg

Joinovikova wrote: »

Why u create such stupidly OP unbalanced set for what reason? to kill pvp completly?

2 – Adds 129 Weapon Damage
2 – Adds 129 Spell Damage
3 – Adds 1487 Physical Penetration
3 – Adds 1487 Spell Penetration
4 – Adds 129 Weapon Damage
4 – Adds 129 Spell Damage
5 – Increases your Physical and Spell Penetration by 13355 against Off-Balance enemies.

... so Toppling Charge +Elemental Drain and will remove nearly all ALL resistance ...so OP godplar will have kills combo with zero counterplay? WTF?...

Yep, totally agree, there seems to be one set to rule them all in cyrodiil next patch, why bother having any other set for pvp? You need to half the pen on this set and still it would be top notch.

Kolzki

olsborg wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Why u create such stupidly OP unbalanced set for what reason? to kill pvp completly?

2 – Adds 129 Weapon Damage
2 – Adds 129 Spell Damage
3 – Adds 1487 Physical Penetration
3 – Adds 1487 Spell Penetration
4 – Adds 129 Weapon Damage
4 – Adds 129 Spell Damage
5 – Increases your Physical and Spell Penetration by 13355 against Off-Balance enemies.

... so Toppling Charge +Elemental Drain and will remove nearly all ALL resistance ...so OP godplar will have kills combo with zero counterplay? WTF?...

Yep, totally agree, there seems to be one set to rule them all in cyrodiil next patch, why bother having any other set for pvp? You need to half the pen on this set and still it would be top notch.

This is the question. How much lower could the pen bonus be for people to consider running other sets?