Congratulations ZOS, you just made vMA completely obsolete.

Hooded_1

Thank you for adding in perfect versions of weapons that are completely useless compared to the non-perfected. Really good design. The only thing that is potentially worth running now is to get the perf. Cruel Flurry, since that is a front bar set and you can actually benefit off of gaining an extra 103 spell damage. I would have hoped that the perfect version would have given a small, yet noticeable difference in DPS (like 3-5%) so that it is actually worth running harder content, but that is clearly not the case. One of the suggestions I would make, which is the same the AsianGod and a couple other people mentioned, for an example, is make the extra weapon crit on the bow active during the skill. And do the same for the spell pen on the staff. And also change spell pen to spell damage or spell crit, because spell pen is a useless stat for mag DPS. This would achieve the goal of giving a small difference in DPS to be noticeable, but not so huge that the normal versions are a joke to run comparatively.

Kurat

And ppl were crying in last few days about having to re grind vMA. Lmfao
What a joke. 100 wep dmg or some extra spell pen on back bar.
If anyone still wants to quit over this, can I have your stuff?

OtarTheMad

Kurat wrote: »

And ppl were crying in last few days about having to re grind vMA. Lmfao
What a joke. 100 wep dmg or some extra spell pen on back bar.
If anyone still wants to quit over this, can I have your stuff?

LMAO, ikr. Talk about overreacting.

xaraan

Kurat wrote: »

And ppl were crying in last few days about having to re grind vMA. Lmfao
What a joke. 100 wep dmg or some extra spell pen on back bar.
If anyone still wants to quit over this, can I have your stuff?

I felt like most people, at least I speak for myself, were mostly pissed b/c of the disrespect of making us re-run vMA to get vMA drops when we just ran vMA to get vMA drops.

I didn't talk to a single player upset about the change that didn't think they would just be one piece pen or damage bonuses.

In fact, I think it's more telling that zos is willing to treat players this way over such 'nothing' change as you guys are making it out to be. If it's not a big deal, then no reason not to give them the weapons, if it is a big deal then it's worth getting upset about, so either way things don't look good for zos from my point of view.

OWLTHEMAD

It would have been a big deal to the min maxers if it had been spell damage or spell crit instead of spell pen on the staff. Those would have made a difference. Spell pen makes 0 difference because everyone is running to hit pen cap anyway.

Im insulted about the approach, but now im annoyed that the perfected isnt actually better except on paper.

Oh well. Might be worth farming a whole bunch of normal maelstrom weapons for new toons now.


For the record i was one of the QQ'ers. Just admitting that for full disclosure.

OtarTheMad

I mean I get it to a point but isn't that what the Perfected weapons that are on live right now do? They just add a bonus like more pen or more damage to it which probably adds a little more dps, maybe like 1k difference.

ZOS openly said that they wanted to raise the floor but also keep that recognition for players who put some hardcore time in to be on top and that's what this is imo.

SidraWillowsky

Do we know for sure that the extra bonuses don't apply when the weapon's not barred or when the skill that the weapon is built around is simply active?

I feel like they might, though I didn't check the numbers. I ask because it boosted my DPS on the six mil but not on the 21 mil, where you get a lot of pen.

I'm a very consistent parser- 48-49k on the 6 mil on live. Not usually lower or higher. I went into the PTS, created an identical character to my main on live, and tested with her. Same 48-49k. I then switched to the perfected vMA staff and left everything else the same. 51k, multiple times. The perfected vMA inferno staff seems to add about 2k DPS if you're self-buffing or in a trial or dungeon group where you're not hitting the pen cap.

Disappointingly -but not unexpectedly- my DPS didn't change on the 21 mil when I changed to the perfected vMA staff. This leads me to think that the "one piece" bonuses apply whenever the skill that the weapon affects is running- Ele Wall for destro, Volley for bow, etc.

Overall, using the perfected vMA destro seems to me akin to using the Lover mundus- it boosts your DPS, but that boost become superfluous in optimized raid groups that are providing other sources of pen. It'll be great for solo stuff and less organized groups though. I find it ironic that the players who would benefit the most from these bonuses aren't the ones who are going to obtain the perfected version of the vMA weapons.

YandereGirlfriend

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I mean I get it to a point but isn't that what the Perfected weapons that are on live right now do? They just add a bonus like more pen or more damage to it which probably adds a little more dps, maybe like 1k difference.

ZOS openly said that they wanted to raise the floor but also keep that recognition for players who put some hardcore time in to be on top and that's what this is imo.

Actually, some of the Perfected sets (such as the Asylum weapons) had superior ability effects instead of numerical stat bonuses.

ZOS' solution to this (which is why the Asylum Destruction Staff is dead) was to nerf the Perfected weapons down to the normal version and then give the Perfected version a trivial stat bonus in return.

In NO way do the meager extra stats make up for the loss of the previous Perfected ability effect, so these weapons have simply been nerfed from where they were.

Blynjubitr

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I mean I get it to a point but isn't that what the Perfected weapons that are on live right now do? They just add a bonus like more pen or more damage to it which probably adds a little more dps, maybe like 1k difference.

ZOS openly said that they wanted to raise the floor but also keep that recognition for players who put some hardcore time in to be on top and that's what this is imo.

Problem is new perfected set effects does not even increase your dps at all. Biggest example, Crushing wall, literally every mag build is already at pen cap and having it on back bar doesn't even allow me to take away some points from CP. It is just outright pointless. Same thing goes for the bow, you just stay for 2 sec on your backbar and therefor bonus cirt doesn't give you anything. So no, no min maxing, no dps increase, right now perfected does absolutely NOTHING.

Runefang

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

It would have been a big deal to the min maxers if it had been spell damage or spell crit instead of spell pen on the staff. Those would have made a difference. Spell pen makes 0 difference because everyone is running to hit pen cap anyway.

Im insulted about the approach, but now im annoyed that the perfected isnt actually better except on paper.

Oh well. Might be worth farming a whole bunch of normal maelstrom weapons for new toons now.


For the record i was one of the QQ'ers. Just admitting that for full disclosure.

Given destro skills get to ignore 10% spell resistance already its a completely stupid one piece bonus. We hit pen cap with non-destro skills.

Banana

Some extra spell pen on the back bar. Nope. I ain't revisiting that toilet for that.

solasub

It was NOT over reacting ; it was not even about running again vMA/ vDSA / vBRP, that for some of us we are still running.

It is about the spirit. Some of those weapons have been got when vMA was far more difficult than now ; and just, abracadabra, those weapons are just now the same that people can get in normal? Which dev could even get that idea????? This is just a malus for older players, reward for casuality, as all the changes for years now. So it's not overreacting ; it's just a "that's enough" feeling, you don't care about us, we wanna look for a game that cares more to its players, that's it.

And other changes (Monster sets nerf, omg, Battle Spirit etc) just confirm that. They are obviously considering us as dumbs ; well we dumbs wanna play another game and that's all ; this lack of consideration is enough.

Saelent

The fact is that some players felt cut off from certain levels of group PvE because they didn’t have the vMA staff, now there won’t be that complaint...those people will just see it was their own lack of skill that didn’t get them the staff originally.

Presumably now people can run vMA to prove themselves better than others but the meta build weapon would be available to everyone.

YandereGirlfriend

Saelent wrote: »

The fact is that some players felt cut off from certain levels of group PvE because they didn’t have the vMA staff, now there won’t be that complaint...those people will just see it was their own lack of skill that didn’t get them the staff originally.

Sadly, those types of players (the ones who blame their gear, the game, balance, basically anyone but themselves) will simply search for a new "reason" why they aren't good at the game.

People who deflect their own shortcomings onto others just aren't the types to do introspection and self-improvement.

llBlack_Heartll

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Saelent wrote: »

The fact is that some players felt cut off from certain levels of group PvE because they didn’t have the vMA staff, now there won’t be that complaint...those people will just see it was their own lack of skill that didn’t get them the staff originally.

Sadly, those types of players (the ones who blame their gear, the game, balance, basically anyone but themselves) will simply search for a new "reason" why they aren't good at the game.

People who deflect their own shortcomings onto others just aren't the types to do introspection and self-improvement.

And now there is no incentive for self improvement, because the perfected version aren’t worth squat for the effort to farm them.
Like they are useless, being mainly back barred.

CleymenZero

Kurat wrote: »

And ppl were crying in last few days about having to re grind vMA. Lmfao
What a joke. 100 wep dmg or some extra spell pen on back bar.
If anyone still wants to quit over this, can I have your stuff?

LOL, if I quit the game, you'd tell me this I would totally send you a video of me buying millions of gold worth of repair kits at 500 gold a pop to sell them back to the same vendor at 5 gold a piece until there would be no gold to speak of.

I would mass decon the hundreds of pieces of PvE (all the bis perfected gear) and PvP gear (most of which have tristats). I'd then destroy all the resulting gold mats.

I'd destroy the tens of thousands of cp 160 crafting materials.

I'd delete all my characters, most of which have most of the skyshards and most skill lines leveled (got probably 15 out of 18 with psijic for example).

It would be grand lol. Then yeah, after that I'd give you my stuff. I'd actually only leave 1 potato and 1 guts. Enjoy.

Of course, I'm not quitting
PvP looks like it might be fun if performance can improve (which I've already almost given up on).

The only think is I don't have much faith, trust and don't have many expectations from them. What drives me crazy the most in life is not being able to understand.

My capacity to understand the most complexe of phenomenon is extremely high. My capacity to visualize complex concepts and to understand the human psychology is also extremely high but I can't understand many of the choices made. The fact that I can't understand where the heck they want to go with all this crap drives me nuts lol. I can only think that they do this for the casual player, to please the masses. The new skills lines also hint at the same thing Imo. I'm getting: "vet players aren't helping the game grow, the casuals do, I'll invest in them".

Jaimeh

solasub wrote: »

It was NOT over reacting ; it was not even about running again vMA/ vDSA / vBRP, that for some of us we are still running.

It is about the spirit. Some of those weapons have been got when vMA was far more difficult than now ; and just, abracadabra, those weapons are just now the same that people can get in normal? Which dev could even get that idea????? This is just a malus for older players, reward for casuality, as all the changes for years now. So it's not overreacting ; it's just a "that's enough" feeling, you don't care about us, we wanna look for a game that cares more to its players, that's it.

And other changes (Monster sets nerf, omg, Battle Spirit etc) just confirm that. They are obviously considering us as dumbs ; well we dumbs wanna play another game and that's all ; this lack of consideration is enough.

I agree, they are indeed rewarding a more casual approach. The thing is, if they're handing rewards for normal completion, with the corresponding vet not being any better, then there's no incentive for people run vet anymore. There's so much talk about the skill gap, but funnily enough it seems that ZOS is trying to diminish the gap by making the game easier, not by pushing players to actually get better.

Sordidfairytale

Jaimeh wrote: »

...There's so much talk about the skill gap, but funnily enough it seems that ZOS is trying to diminish the gap by making the game easier, not by pushing players to actually get better.

Which isn't such a bad idea, from a marketing standpoint, with newer players arriving to the game regularly.

MLGProPlayer

Kurat wrote: »

And ppl were crying in last few days about having to re grind vMA. Lmfao
What a joke. 100 wep dmg or some extra spell pen on back bar.
If anyone still wants to quit over this, can I have your stuff?

The fact that the perfected versions suck doesn't mean the change isn't moronic.

LukosCreyden

All good to me! Now I don't need to feel bad about skipping on the "perfected maelstrom" grind!

MLGProPlayer

LukosCreyden wrote: »

All good to me! Now I don't need to feel bad about skipping on the "perfected maelstrom" grind!

You assume they'll never be buffed. It's still very possible you'll need to re-farm this content at some point in the future.

Jaimeh

Somewhere it was mentioned that they're changing some set bonuses, like Skoria's, because they want pure damage sets to have only damage-related stats, and so on. And then they go and add a pen bonus to the inferno staff. Who even thinks of these things?? They're giving something to the more casual players by adding the weapons to normal chests, why not give something to the vet players by making the extra bonus on the perfected versions actually useful? Like spell damage, for instance. Not that I'm in any way looking forward to re-grind vMA, but now nobody will have a reason to. One of the most formative instances for solo players being rendered obsolete. @ZOS_BrianWheeler

llBlack_Heartll

Jaimeh wrote: »

Somewhere it was mentioned that they're changing some set bonuses, like Skoria's, because they want pure damage sets to have only damage-related stats, and so on. And then they go and add a pen bonus to the inferno staff. Who even thinks of these things?? They're giving something to the more casual players by adding the weapons to normal chests, why not give something to the vet players by making the extra bonus on the perfected versions actually useful? Like spell damage, for instance. Not that I'm in any way looking forward to re-grind vMA, but now nobody will have a reason to. One of the most formative instances for solo players being rendered obsolete. @ZOS_BrianWheeler

A stat bonus is a lazy way of making perfected items. I think they had the right idea with AS and BRP perfected Weapons, where it was a better version of the bonus and it’s something you would want to aim to get but the normal version wasn’t too far off.

validifyedneb18_ESO

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

It would have been a big deal to the min maxers if it had been spell damage or spell crit instead of spell pen on the staff. Those would have made a difference. Spell pen makes 0 difference because everyone is running to hit pen cap anyway.

Im insulted about the approach, but now im annoyed that the perfected isnt actually better except on paper.

Oh well. Might be worth farming a whole bunch of normal maelstrom weapons for new toons now.


For the record i was one of the QQ'ers. Just admitting that for full disclosure.

I dont understand your logic, free pen means you just remove some CP from pen and put it into damage...

This is the whole thing about ESO, stats barely mean anything, there are so many ways to balance yourself optimally that noone REALLY cares if a set gives you "X crit" or whatever, because they just use enchants, CP, sets, mundus, food to counteract it and get the perfect stats they wanted anyway.

OtarTheMad

Blynjubitr wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I mean I get it to a point but isn't that what the Perfected weapons that are on live right now do? They just add a bonus like more pen or more damage to it which probably adds a little more dps, maybe like 1k difference.

ZOS openly said that they wanted to raise the floor but also keep that recognition for players who put some hardcore time in to be on top and that's what this is imo.

Problem is new perfected set effects does not even increase your dps at all. Biggest example, Crushing wall, literally every mag build is already at pen cap and having it on back bar doesn't even allow me to take away some points from CP. It is just outright pointless. Same thing goes for the bow, you just stay for 2 sec on your backbar and therefor bonus cirt doesn't give you anything. So no, no min maxing, no dps increase, right now perfected does absolutely NOTHING.

Well I am sorry people feel cheated and wronged or whatever. That sucks. It also sucks that the Perfected version doesn't really do much for some people. To me though, even though they changed the stat/are now rewarding these weapons for easier content, it doesn't take the achievement away.

I see the change as good, the floor is risen (probably not by much but maybe enough) which could lead to a lot of things. I can see how completing it when it was really hard and getting a reward which is now given at the easiest level is frustrating. I mean I did vMA once, got a crappy weapon that, at the time, was trash so I just decon'd it and never did that again (mainly cause my life got crazy and I couldn't play). But I also see that raising the floor is good. It's too bad those who got these weapons when the content was harder didn't get an automatic upgrade but I also did saw many overreact too, not saying anyone here but some went over the top. They have a right to do that of course but it was just funny after the patch hit.

Blynjubitr

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Blynjubitr wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I mean I get it to a point but isn't that what the Perfected weapons that are on live right now do? They just add a bonus like more pen or more damage to it which probably adds a little more dps, maybe like 1k difference.

ZOS openly said that they wanted to raise the floor but also keep that recognition for players who put some hardcore time in to be on top and that's what this is imo.

Problem is new perfected set effects does not even increase your dps at all. Biggest example, Crushing wall, literally every mag build is already at pen cap and having it on back bar doesn't even allow me to take away some points from CP. It is just outright pointless. Same thing goes for the bow, you just stay for 2 sec on your backbar and therefor bonus cirt doesn't give you anything. So no, no min maxing, no dps increase, right now perfected does absolutely NOTHING.

Well I am sorry people feel cheated and wronged or whatever. That sucks. It also sucks that the Perfected version doesn't really do much for some people. To me though, even though they changed the stat/are now rewarding these weapons for easier content, it doesn't take the achievement away.

I see the change as good, the floor is risen (probably not by much but maybe enough) which could lead to a lot of things. I can see how completing it when it was really hard and getting a reward which is now given at the easiest level is frustrating. I mean I did vMA once, got a crappy weapon that, at the time, was trash so I just decon'd it and never did that again (mainly cause my life got crazy and I couldn't play). But I also see that raising the floor is good. It's too bad those who got these weapons when the content was harder didn't get an automatic upgrade but I also did saw many overreact too, not saying anyone here but some went over the top. They have a right to do that of course but it was just funny after the patch hit.

Running vMA is not the problem, my problem is there is nothing to run it again for. Sure i'll quickly collect perfected ones just to have them in the future but like i said right now they provide nothing. I was expecting more from perfected pieces, i don't really care if other people can have access to MA weaps because if people are not able to finish vMA they will not be able to get big numbers with weapons they got because getting good at rotations is harder than finishing vMA.

OtarTheMad

Blynjubitr wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Blynjubitr wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I mean I get it to a point but isn't that what the Perfected weapons that are on live right now do? They just add a bonus like more pen or more damage to it which probably adds a little more dps, maybe like 1k difference.

ZOS openly said that they wanted to raise the floor but also keep that recognition for players who put some hardcore time in to be on top and that's what this is imo.

Problem is new perfected set effects does not even increase your dps at all. Biggest example, Crushing wall, literally every mag build is already at pen cap and having it on back bar doesn't even allow me to take away some points from CP. It is just outright pointless. Same thing goes for the bow, you just stay for 2 sec on your backbar and therefor bonus cirt doesn't give you anything. So no, no min maxing, no dps increase, right now perfected does absolutely NOTHING.

Well I am sorry people feel cheated and wronged or whatever. That sucks. It also sucks that the Perfected version doesn't really do much for some people. To me though, even though they changed the stat/are now rewarding these weapons for easier content, it doesn't take the achievement away.

I see the change as good, the floor is risen (probably not by much but maybe enough) which could lead to a lot of things. I can see how completing it when it was really hard and getting a reward which is now given at the easiest level is frustrating. I mean I did vMA once, got a crappy weapon that, at the time, was trash so I just decon'd it and never did that again (mainly cause my life got crazy and I couldn't play). But I also see that raising the floor is good. It's too bad those who got these weapons when the content was harder didn't get an automatic upgrade but I also did saw many overreact too, not saying anyone here but some went over the top. They have a right to do that of course but it was just funny after the patch hit.

Running vMA is not the problem, my problem is there is nothing to run it again for. Sure i'll quickly collect perfected ones just to have them in the future but like i said right now they provide nothing. I was expecting more from perfected pieces, i don't really care if other people can have access to MA weaps because if people are not able to finish vMA they will not be able to get big numbers with weapons they got because getting good at rotations is harder than finishing vMA.

Yeah, I agree with that last part to a degree. I mean, right now, I can't get the numbers I once could. In the past I had time to work on my rotation and just get better but now I don't really have the time to work on it so my numbers suffered as I got rustier. I doubt a weapon will improve my numbers to elite end game trial levels but, for me, not really what I am looking for. For me it's not about big numbers, it's about better numbers. My goal is 40k or better DPS, I haven't done a rotation/dummy test since Harrowstorm dropped cause of the ability issues but I was improving before that, hit 33k. Just hard because I usually don't have a ton of time to dedicate to the game.

llBlack_Heartll

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Blynjubitr wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I mean I get it to a point but isn't that what the Perfected weapons that are on live right now do? They just add a bonus like more pen or more damage to it which probably adds a little more dps, maybe like 1k difference.

ZOS openly said that they wanted to raise the floor but also keep that recognition for players who put some hardcore time in to be on top and that's what this is imo.

Problem is new perfected set effects does not even increase your dps at all. Biggest example, Crushing wall, literally every mag build is already at pen cap and having it on back bar doesn't even allow me to take away some points from CP. It is just outright pointless. Same thing goes for the bow, you just stay for 2 sec on your backbar and therefor bonus cirt doesn't give you anything. So no, no min maxing, no dps increase, right now perfected does absolutely NOTHING.

Well I am sorry people feel cheated and wronged or whatever. That sucks. It also sucks that the Perfected version doesn't really do much for some people. To me though, even though they changed the stat/are now rewarding these weapons for easier content, it doesn't take the achievement away.

I see the change as good, the floor is risen (probably not by much but maybe enough) which could lead to a lot of things. I can see how completing it when it was really hard and getting a reward which is now given at the easiest level is frustrating. I mean I did vMA once, got a crappy weapon that, at the time, was trash so I just decon'd it and never did that again (mainly cause my life got crazy and I couldn't play). But I also see that raising the floor is good. It's too bad those who got these weapons when the content was harder didn't get an automatic upgrade but I also did saw many overreact too, not saying anyone here but some went over the top. They have a right to do that of course but it was just funny after the patch hit.

Mate the floor hasn’t even risen, I bet 98% of ppl who farm the weapons on normal, still won’t finish vMA with that weapons slotted.
The problem isn’t the gear, it’s the player, weather it be they just aren’t skilled enough for vet or they are to lazy to learn mechs.

OtarTheMad

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Blynjubitr wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I mean I get it to a point but isn't that what the Perfected weapons that are on live right now do? They just add a bonus like more pen or more damage to it which probably adds a little more dps, maybe like 1k difference.

ZOS openly said that they wanted to raise the floor but also keep that recognition for players who put some hardcore time in to be on top and that's what this is imo.

Problem is new perfected set effects does not even increase your dps at all. Biggest example, Crushing wall, literally every mag build is already at pen cap and having it on back bar doesn't even allow me to take away some points from CP. It is just outright pointless. Same thing goes for the bow, you just stay for 2 sec on your backbar and therefor bonus cirt doesn't give you anything. So no, no min maxing, no dps increase, right now perfected does absolutely NOTHING.

Well I am sorry people feel cheated and wronged or whatever. That sucks. It also sucks that the Perfected version doesn't really do much for some people. To me though, even though they changed the stat/are now rewarding these weapons for easier content, it doesn't take the achievement away.

I see the change as good, the floor is risen (probably not by much but maybe enough) which could lead to a lot of things. I can see how completing it when it was really hard and getting a reward which is now given at the easiest level is frustrating. I mean I did vMA once, got a crappy weapon that, at the time, was trash so I just decon'd it and never did that again (mainly cause my life got crazy and I couldn't play). But I also see that raising the floor is good. It's too bad those who got these weapons when the content was harder didn't get an automatic upgrade but I also did saw many overreact too, not saying anyone here but some went over the top. They have a right to do that of course but it was just funny after the patch hit.

Mate the floor hasn’t even risen, I bet 98% of ppl who farm the weapons on normal, still won’t finish vMA with that weapons slotted.
The problem isn’t the gear, it’s the player, weather it be they just aren’t skilled enough for vet or they are to lazy to learn mechs.

lol maybe not no. With these changes and some of the monster set changes I think the floor rose a bit but also maybe the ceiling as well, not by much but maybe a bit.

FirmamentOfStars

People now can complain, that actually getting BIS gear will be easy as ***, meanwhile they once worked for it. In greymoor every noob gets BIS gear without any effort, since normal arenas are a piece of cake. Up to now it was at least somewhat hard to get good gear. ZOS obviously caters to the noobs and people who do not like to work for something.

- BIS gear available pretty much for everyone
- Bash weaving gutted to close the gap between noobs and the hardcore dds, who actually managed to include bashing into their rotation
- Healing reduction in PvP meaning solo and small scale is less viable

It is just sad how stupidly easy ZOS wants to make the game for new and unskilled players and how veteran playeres get treated.

paulychan

Spell pen on the staff? Lol, that's what they went with? Let me see... which build needs more pen... not one lol. Wow