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Small scalers get another nerf
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Sylosi✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »SavageChain wrote: »It only makes sense that one guy can take on several opponents, if he outskills them.
Nothing makes sense about players with significantly different levels of skill/experience/attitude playing against each other in a PvP game. As all it leads to is largely low skilled, dull PvP with impossible balance issues and a dying game(mode).
Which is why most PvP games dropped that model long ago and is a big part of why PvP fails miserably in games like ESO (and in MMORPGs generally).
Because that's how survival of the fittest works. Always has, always will. It's never going to be "fair".
Sorry, I don't roleplay.
Neither do I, I PVP. If you're red, you're dead.
Sounds like more roleplay to me...Edited by Sylosi on April 24, 2020 8:03PM3 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭it is ridiculous how many PvP players cant perform a burst combo but have double the population of Greenland in AVA kills.
oh god that's a good one ROFLMAO!
is spin to win still a thing? its reduced range right? spin to win with Blackrose dual wield?Smal scale => Batleground/ IC
Zerg/Ballgroup => Cyro
Why would you go to cyro for "smal scaling"[ snip]
[edited for baiting]
Because zerg pounding as a solo sport is the stuff of legends, that's like saying "you've only got one harpoon gun, why would you go hunt whales when you can hunt sea bass."
My formal stance on this is that the game has shifted too hard into passive stats. It's why CP is broken, and it's why gear is too significant.
Active skills aren't playing a strong enough role, both defensively and offensively. If I'm getting slammed, I should have to use active skills to counter being slammed, which should mitigate even crazy excess damage for short durations, as long as I can sustain them.
What players should not be able to do, is stand still and survive getting pounded indefinitely.
agreed.
1vX should be very hard to master, but it shouldn't be downright impossible thanks to zerg healing.
Cheers brother.Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
Ultrawide ESO Adventure Screenshots - 7680 x 1080 Resolution
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Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kidgangster101 wrote: »SavageChain wrote: »Kidgangster101 wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »The healing in PVP is absurd. A group of 4 people shouldn't have the healing potential of a group of 12. The game for years has facilitated the ability to be your own pocket healer on top of being tanky and having high damage, which is out of control. If you build to be a deadicated healer then your heals should be great. If you build for damage, you should not be able to heal yourself as well as a dedicated healer, nor come close.
Whether or not nerfing heal output is the right thing to do to fix this, at least it's something. Really what they should do is increase the cost of heals by a lot, all heals...stamina and magicka heals....and force people to have to build into recoveries to effectively utilize them.
I've said it a lot they need to make "healing" its own stat that you need to spec into rather than having it being tied to mag/spell damage and stam/weapon damage.......
A 6k+ weapon damage vigor covers both insane damage and survivability in 1 stat same with magic toons.
This is the biggest problem with PVP there should be choices playing alone. You shouldn't be a tank/healer/dps in one spec and if you go that round you should be only ok at them. Jack of a trade master of none..... But somehow we have master of all in this game.
You know that such a change again only favors bigger groups? A solo player would lose damage to gain reasonable healing, therefore have much less killing power and hardere times to kill the zerglings. Meanwhile in bigger groups and zergs, youc an just specc into one thing, since your groupmembers will cover the other thing. You can be the annoying healer with zero damage and that is perfectly fine in groups. Or you are specced into damage and *** healing, but your group will cover up the healing somewhere with a healer. Only soloers and small scalers will be hit by such a change, because they need to specc in everything.
Lol so it is not okay to take it away because it hurts solo players ability to fight/kill ENTIRE ZERGS ALONE?
It is crazy that 1 person can kill an entire group. I pretty much only play small scale PVP and I find it crazy me and my wife together can kill 8+ alone. That is not okay lol.
PEOPLE CHOOSE TO PLAY SOLO, why should you be as powerful as an entire group because YOU CHOOSE that route?
Because this is a videogame, PvP is a competitive arena, not a calculation, because 1vX makes for EPIC gameplay. If you can 2v8 YOU EARNED IT. If you can 2v50 YOU EARNED IT. That's why we have chess masters, that's why we have people who do great things, who go above and beyond.
Empower people to go above and beyond.Kidgangster101 wrote: »SavageChain wrote: »Kidgangster101 wrote: »SavageChain wrote: »Kidgangster101 wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »The healing in PVP is absurd. A group of 4 people shouldn't have the healing potential of a group of 12. The game for years has facilitated the ability to be your own pocket healer on top of being tanky and having high damage, which is out of control. If you build to be a deadicated healer then your heals should be great. If you build for damage, you should not be able to heal yourself as well as a dedicated healer, nor come close.
Whether or not nerfing heal output is the right thing to do to fix this, at least it's something. Really what they should do is increase the cost of heals by a lot, all heals...stamina and magicka heals....and force people to have to build into recoveries to effectively utilize them.
I've said it a lot they need to make "healing" its own stat that you need to spec into rather than having it being tied to mag/spell damage and stam/weapon damage.......
A 6k+ weapon damage vigor covers both insane damage and survivability in 1 stat same with magic toons.
This is the biggest problem with PVP there should be choices playing alone. You shouldn't be a tank/healer/dps in one spec and if you go that round you should be only ok at them. Jack of a trade master of none..... But somehow we have master of all in this game.
You know that such a change again only favors bigger groups? A solo player would lose damage to gain reasonable healing, therefore have much less killing power and hardere times to kill the zerglings. Meanwhile in bigger groups and zergs, youc an just specc into one thing, since your groupmembers will cover the other thing. You can be the annoying healer with zero damage and that is perfectly fine in groups. Or you are specced into damage and *** healing, but your group will cover up the healing somewhere with a healer. Only soloers and small scalers will be hit by such a change, because they need to specc in everything.
Lol so it is not okay to take it away because it hurts solo players ability to fight/kill ENTIRE ZERGS ALONE?
It is crazy that 1 person can kill an entire group. I pretty much only play small scale PVP and I find it crazy me and my wife together can kill 8+ alone. That is not okay lol.
PEOPLE CHOOSE TO PLAY SOLO, why should you be as powerful as an entire group because YOU CHOOSE that route?
Wow lol that argument. If you and your wife together killed so many, than it means they were terrible. So why shouldnt you be able to kill several unskilled players alone?
It only makes sense that one guy can take on several opponents, if he outskills them. Thats the same thing as if a martial arts athlete fights several children, which will probably result in the same.
Soloers are not as strong as a group, because they choose so. They have chosen solo play to challenge themselves, but skill and knowledge let them overwhelm their enemies. Skill and experience, two things gathered by long practicing. Somebody spending lots of time into that should just be stronger than new players, even if they outnumber him.
They should be stronger yes, but to do as good healing as the dedicated healer, to be as tanky as an actual pve tank, to do the damage of a top tier dps all at once should not be allowed lol.
That fighter you are talking about in your example, how often are they the best kicker in the world along with being the best grappler in the world and also the best boxer in the world? VERY RARE to be the best at everything so again I ask why is it okay to be the BEST at everything in a game just because your out of hand stats allow it?
PS: edited to let you know you play solo for a "challenge" and this would definitely let you have a better "challenge"......
I don't see this as a problem with having too much of everything, as much as I see it as a problem with the relative mathematics of the elements of the game at a core level. As I mentioned earlier for example, if I can rez teammates faster than they can die, then it is impossible to come out on top solo. As just one example.
Part of the problem is we moved off softcaps and this seriously broke the limits on what any one player can do.Goregrinder wrote: »SavageChain wrote: »It only makes sense that one guy can take on several opponents, if he outskills them.
Nothing makes sense about players with significantly different levels of skill/experience/attitude playing against each other in a PvP game. As all it leads to is largely low skilled, dull PvP with impossible balance issues and a dying game(mode).
Which is why most PvP games dropped that model long ago and is a big part of why PvP fails miserably in games like ESO (and in MMORPGs generally).
Because that's how survival of the fittest works. Always has, always will. It's never going to be "fair".
In quoting this part, my perspective is a response to all of the layers of this quote. This is a VIDEOGAME. Also I agree, it never is going to be fair. The point is not for it to be fair according to the laws of natural selection. I can summon a magical bubble that stops magical fireballs from hurting me. Natural selection is just a limit you are superimposing on the game, to justify the perspective that better player/team or stronger player/team = must win.
I love this game, I love winning, I hate losing, just like everyone. I don't expect to win all the time, but I don't expect to lose all the time either. The bigger fish wins paradigm reinforces smaller fish losing all the time in its current state, and most particularly at a solo level.Edited by Cathexis on April 25, 2020 4:50AMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
Ultrawide ESO Adventure Screenshots - 7680 x 1080 Resolution
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Sneaky-Snurr✭✭✭✭✭
@Kidgangster101Kidgangster101 wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »The healing in PVP is absurd. A group of 4 people shouldn't have the healing potential of a group of 12. The game for years has facilitated the ability to be your own pocket healer on top of being tanky and having high damage, which is out of control. If you build to be a deadicated healer then your heals should be great. If you build for damage, you should not be able to heal yourself as well as a dedicated healer, nor come close.
Whether or not nerfing heal output is the right thing to do to fix this, at least it's something. Really what they should do is increase the cost of heals by a lot, all heals...stamina and magicka heals....and force people to have to build into recoveries to effectively utilize them.
I've said it a lot they need to make "healing" its own stat that you need to spec into rather than having it being tied to mag/spell damage and stam/weapon damage.......
A 6k+ weapon damage vigor covers both insane damage and survivability in 1 stat same with magic toons.
This is the biggest problem with PVP there should be choices playing alone. You shouldn't be a tank/healer/dps in one spec and if you go that round you should be only ok at them. Jack of a trade master of none..... But somehow we have master of all in this game.
That's not a viable change to go for if you want to nerf some group healing.
I've suggested to reduce healing received and limiting the number of healing from players via Battle Spirit instead as explained in my thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/521939/so-is-everyone-going-to-ignore-battle-spirit-changes-which-is-uncalled-for/p1
That way, solo heals would become untouched and hurts big groups & zergs. It is a more effective adjustment.The Order of the Shadows: Nightmare-
EP CP810 Nightblade
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AD CP810 Templar
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AD CP810 Dragon Knight
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AD Lvl 25 Sorceror
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DC Lvl 23 Nightblade
Shadow hide you. -Unknown
There is no clean fight in a war. -Shun Izaki0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »
@Kidgangster101Kidgangster101 wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »The healing in PVP is absurd. A group of 4 people shouldn't have the healing potential of a group of 12. The game for years has facilitated the ability to be your own pocket healer on top of being tanky and having high damage, which is out of control. If you build to be a deadicated healer then your heals should be great. If you build for damage, you should not be able to heal yourself as well as a dedicated healer, nor come close.
Whether or not nerfing heal output is the right thing to do to fix this, at least it's something. Really what they should do is increase the cost of heals by a lot, all heals...stamina and magicka heals....and force people to have to build into recoveries to effectively utilize them.
I've said it a lot they need to make "healing" its own stat that you need to spec into rather than having it being tied to mag/spell damage and stam/weapon damage.......
A 6k+ weapon damage vigor covers both insane damage and survivability in 1 stat same with magic toons.
This is the biggest problem with PVP there should be choices playing alone. You shouldn't be a tank/healer/dps in one spec and if you go that round you should be only ok at them. Jack of a trade master of none..... But somehow we have master of all in this game.
That's not a viable change to go for if you want to nerf some group healing.
I've suggested to reduce healing received and limiting the number of healing from players via Battle Spirit instead as explained in my thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/521939/so-is-everyone-going-to-ignore-battle-spirit-changes-which-is-uncalled-for/p1
That way, solo heals would become untouched and hurts big groups & zergs. It is a more effective adjustment.
This is a brilliant suggestion and they should run with it, it would be a very strong step in the right direction.
On a similar line of thinking, and as I have suggest in general relation to group buffs as well, the proportional benefit of group effects to solo effects is too strong. Personal effects should be strong, so survival is largely determined by the individual, while team effects should be lowered to a smaller margin, and enhancements to group effects should reflect a rational proportion and tradeoff for single benefits as well. (As I see it, in terms of scaling to rational proportions for competitive play, not because I just want it to be that way).Edited by Cathexis on April 25, 2020 4:55AMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
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Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »SavageChain wrote: »It only makes sense that one guy can take on several opponents, if he outskills them.
Nothing makes sense about players with significantly different levels of skill/experience/attitude playing against each other in a PvP game. As all it leads to is largely low skilled, dull PvP with impossible balance issues and a dying game(mode).
Which is why most PvP games dropped that model long ago and is a big part of why PvP fails miserably in games like ESO (and in MMORPGs generally).
Because that's how survival of the fittest works. Always has, always will. It's never going to be "fair".
Sorry, I don't roleplay.
Neither do I, I PVP. If you're red, you're dead.
Sounds like more roleplay to me...
Roleplay requires pretending...the changes ZOS is making to heals is not pretend. No roleplay here.0 -
FirmamentOfStars✭✭✭✭✭Kidgangster101 wrote: »SavageChain wrote: »Kidgangster101 wrote: »SavageChain wrote: »Kidgangster101 wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »The healing in PVP is absurd. A group of 4 people shouldn't have the healing potential of a group of 12. The game for years has facilitated the ability to be your own pocket healer on top of being tanky and having high damage, which is out of control. If you build to be a deadicated healer then your heals should be great. If you build for damage, you should not be able to heal yourself as well as a dedicated healer, nor come close.
Whether or not nerfing heal output is the right thing to do to fix this, at least it's something. Really what they should do is increase the cost of heals by a lot, all heals...stamina and magicka heals....and force people to have to build into recoveries to effectively utilize them.
I've said it a lot they need to make "healing" its own stat that you need to spec into rather than having it being tied to mag/spell damage and stam/weapon damage.......
A 6k+ weapon damage vigor covers both insane damage and survivability in 1 stat same with magic toons.
This is the biggest problem with PVP there should be choices playing alone. You shouldn't be a tank/healer/dps in one spec and if you go that round you should be only ok at them. Jack of a trade master of none..... But somehow we have master of all in this game.
You know that such a change again only favors bigger groups? A solo player would lose damage to gain reasonable healing, therefore have much less killing power and hardere times to kill the zerglings. Meanwhile in bigger groups and zergs, youc an just specc into one thing, since your groupmembers will cover the other thing. You can be the annoying healer with zero damage and that is perfectly fine in groups. Or you are specced into damage and *** healing, but your group will cover up the healing somewhere with a healer. Only soloers and small scalers will be hit by such a change, because they need to specc in everything.
Lol so it is not okay to take it away because it hurts solo players ability to fight/kill ENTIRE ZERGS ALONE?
It is crazy that 1 person can kill an entire group. I pretty much only play small scale PVP and I find it crazy me and my wife together can kill 8+ alone. That is not okay lol.
PEOPLE CHOOSE TO PLAY SOLO, why should you be as powerful as an entire group because YOU CHOOSE that route?
Wow lol that argument. If you and your wife together killed so many, than it means they were terrible. So why shouldnt you be able to kill several unskilled players alone?
It only makes sense that one guy can take on several opponents, if he outskills them. Thats the same thing as if a martial arts athlete fights several children, which will probably result in the same.
Soloers are not as strong as a group, because they choose so. They have chosen solo play to challenge themselves, but skill and knowledge let them overwhelm their enemies. Skill and experience, two things gathered by long practicing. Somebody spending lots of time into that should just be stronger than new players, even if they outnumber him.
They should be stronger yes, but to do as good healing as the dedicated healer, to be as tanky as an actual pve tank, to do the damage of a top tier dps all at once should not be allowed lol.
That fighter you are talking about in your example, how often are they the best kicker in the world along with being the best grappler in the world and also the best boxer in the world? VERY RARE to be the best at everything so again I ask why is it okay to be the BEST at everything in a game just because your out of hand stats allow it?
PS: edited to let you know you play solo for a "challenge" and this would definitely let you have a better "challenge"......
I see what you mean, but actually you kind if lost the focus. 1vXers do not have the best sustain, tankyness and damage at the same time. It might seem so, since they hardly take damage, do high damage combos and does not seem to run out of resources. But it only seems like that.
Actually it is very easy to do more damage than them, if you adjust your build to do so. A glasscanon build always will do more damage than a tankier spec. If you really want to build for it, you can be tankier than them, have better sustain or healing than them or more damage.
What you see is their skill and their experience. They seem to be tanky, because they avoid damage by losing, dodging the right attacks and block when needed combined with continous healing lets them look like tankier than everything. Also they know their burst combos and could perform them with closed eyes. They do that much damage, because they hit you when you are not ready for it, maybe unbuffed, maybe you dropped your hots, because you were too focussed on damaging them.
They do not excel at everything, therefore they are not climber, fighter and grappler at the same time. They are fighters knowing when the avoid hits, how to avoid them, when to rest and when to hit back and that is all you need to perform better than the unskilled enemies.4 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭@SavageChain there is an added component to this which is that there is variability among players as to how hard they are focused on average that plays into their defense requirements.Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
Ultrawide ESO Adventure Screenshots - 7680 x 1080 Resolution
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