PvP class' stengths/weaknesses graphs - Harrowstorm

Reverb

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Actual pvp rankings by build:

1) Desyncs
2) Lag
3) Loadscreens
4) Players

What about crashes??

Hmm, good question. Should Crashing go before or after Loadscreens? The crashing is more abrupt than the others, but also less frequent. Maybe Crash boss slides in at #3

Dracane

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Because it's folly. Adding 20% resistance from armor to that 50% battle spirit does not amount to 70% damage reduction. Because these 20% are taken from that which is left after battle spirit.

All our tooltips are reduced by 50% in pvp, so that is nothing I would call damage reduction to begin with. After penetration, a Sorcerer maybe has like 18% actual damage reduction in pvp with minor protection. Likely even less.

He is talking about the UESP-Build-editor. Even whitout the 50% Battespirit you have much more than 18%.
whit 20k Armor = 30% reduction
Minor Protection: 8%
Hardy/Elemental defender(43): mostly 10%
Ironclad(56): 20%
0.7x0.92x0.9x0.8=0.46 => 54% dmg reduction
whit Battelspirit 0.46x0.5 =>77% dmg reduction
And that's all things that every class have access to. Whit rather low Armor...
And everyone is wondering why we have a tank meta....

Armor is not real damage reduction. I mean, everyone has 10k-17k armor penetration. So 20k armor is almost nothing after that.

I agree though. It is incredibly easy to be super tanky. Defense is also cheaper to maintain than offense. So yea, being defensive is way too easy in pvp. Particularly because damage scales horribly in pvp. All weapon/spell damage you gain is first cut in half by battlespirit and then greatly diminished by enemy resistances.

Means that even with a heavy investment into damage, barely anything gets through. So it is preferable to play tanky, as building for damage does almost nothing except for essentially lowering your damage for you are vulnerable and squishy and barely have time to attack.

Sort of. Most defense is from self healing so if you’re too tanky you’ll never get through someone’s hots. Being really tanky is moreso a small scale thing I think; you can be tanky because a group Ult dump by multiple people will still be able to kill someone.

I don’t mean go stamblade divines with 18k health garbage, I just mean offense vs defense is a balancing act. More max stats also means better self healing so sacrificing too much for defense doesn’t work too well imo.

The thing people never talk about is that there becomes a point where stacking more damage proves pointless.

Can you elaborate? Do you mean penentration type builds specifically or max stat builds?

Basically people seem to think that stacking damage is the way and it isn't. For example, a mate wanted to use newmoon + fury on a stamplar with bloodspawn. He made it and said he was hitting really hard but had sustain issues. I told him to drop fury for bone pirate and he called me crazy but once he did he noticed that for 50-60% of the fight his damage was higher and even when fury overtook due to 12 stacks + then did he get more damage. The total difference on dizzy swing between fury and bone pirate on the build was 1200 tool tip approx which after reductions etc is about 400 more damage a hit. He concluded that bone pirate worked better as it gave him sustain and equitable damage of which he killed people in the same time frame.

This is also true for magicka too on the whole, my magicka warden build has an 18k deeper fissure tool tip buffed before continous with necro + alfique and around 20k armour with 1500 regen. On my resistor build, it has a deep fissure tool tip of 16.8k buffed without continuous but has 1800 regen and 28k armour. So in an actual fight, having an extra 1200-1700 on a tool tip instead of 8k more armour and 300 more regen isn't worth it because at the end of the day, that extra 400 after battle spirit will not get the difference between getting a kill or not.

I found that the game is designed to allow you to run 1 of each set and be highly effective - damage, sustain and defence and then use glyphs and mundus stone to refine it, building around racial bonuses.

My stamina necromancer is an example of this, new moon + bone pirate with bloodspawn and I still have a blast bones tool top of over 20k. As such, my point is that stacking into damage although helpful early on gets heavily diminished and so I would take slightly less damage for more defence and regen.

Make sense?

This is truth. All this damage is so heavily reduced, that barely anything remains. On the other hand, having more resistance and sustain, means your damage is more constant and that you are not pressured into defence so heavily.

So in reality, building for full damage costs you damage in the end.

Thraben

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Class Identity: the lowest of all Graphs.

.

1) This graph shows some major problems with scale.

Let´s give an example:

Single target burst potential:

StamNecro, MagSorc, Magblade (!!!), Stemplar, Magplar, StamWarden and possibly Stamblade beat a StamSorc in that department. After the patch, the StamDK, too. If we strictly use ranks we have a scale of 1-12, with 1 being lowest. According to such a scale, a StamSorc would be somewhere between 4 and 6, probably 5. Even in the best case scenario, the StamSorc would rank as 6/12. Which is apparently quite far away from the 7/10 given.

So on a cardinal/ ordinal scale 7/10 is not a correct assessment.

And on a metric scale, even more so, as there are massive burst gaps between Necro and Warden on the one side, and the other classes on the other.

Necroes and Wardens have an additional skill that hits as hard as Dizzy.
Necroes have an additional self-synergy that, again, hits harder than a Dizzy.

In short: With the same weapon skill combo (just assume a Twohander) a StamNecro outbursts a StamSorc by 10k-15k. That's more than twice the damage in the same 3 seconds. And it's more than an Ultimate does.

To make up for that, StamSorcs have 5-10% more base damage and a poor man's Grim Focus. It would be an extraordinary effort to get a 7/10 here, i.e. 70% of the StamNecro's burst damage. Maybe a lucky double crit or something.


2) Obvious mistakes:

- Group heal strength: Must be higher. In fact, 14 StamSorcs in a group outheal everything that doesn't one-hit them. Of course, they are no wardens or templars, but this is a case of "Know your skills", nonetheless.

- damage potential from DoTs is higher, as non- purgable Dots are more valuable than purgable ones.

- single target damage must be higher than single target burst potential

3) hint:

In an optimized 6-man- group a StamSorc has no place at all (since it consists of 3 Wardens, 1 Templar 1 DK and one MagSorc/ Necro); 4/5 aka "good" is s/he only in a Duo with a StamWarden/ StamNecro.

Iskiab

Thraben wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Class Identity: the lowest of all Graphs.

.

1) This graph shows some major problems with scale.

Let´s give an example:

Single target burst potential:

StamNecro, MagSorc, Magblade (!!!), Stemplar, Magplar, StamWarden and possibly Stamblade beat a StamSorc in that department. After the patch, the StamDK, too. If we strictly use ranks we have a scale of 1-12, with 1 being lowest. According to such a scale, a StamSorc would be somewhere between 4 and 6, probably 5. Even in the best case scenario, the StamSorc would rank as 6/12. Which is apparently quite far away from the 7/10 given.

So on a cardinal/ ordinal scale 7/10 is not a correct assessment.

And on a metric scale, even more so, as there are massive burst gaps between Necro and Warden on the one side, and the other classes on the other.

Necroes and Wardens have an additional skill that hits as hard as Dizzy.
Necroes have an additional self-synergy that, again, hits harder than a Dizzy.

In short: With the same weapon skill combo (just assume a Twohander) a StamNecro outbursts a StamSorc by 10k-15k. That's more than twice the damage in the same 3 seconds. And it's more than an Ultimate does.

To make up for that, StamSorcs have 5-10% more base damage and a poor man's Grim Focus. It would be an extraordinary effort to get a 7/10 here, i.e. 70% of the StamNecro's burst damage. Maybe a lucky double crit or something.


2) Obvious mistakes:

- Group heal strength: Must be higher. In fact, 14 StamSorcs in a group outheal everything that doesn't one-hit them. Of course, they are no wardens or templars, but this is a case of "Know your skills", nonetheless.

- damage potential from DoTs is higher, as non- purgable Dots are more valuable than purgable ones.

- single target damage must be higher than single target burst potential

3) hint:

In an optimized 6-man- group a StamSorc has no place at all (since it consists of 3 Wardens, 1 Templar 1 DK and one MagSorc/ Necro); 4/5 aka "good" is s/he only in a Duo with a StamWarden/ StamNecro.

I’d say stamsorc is higher burst than a stamblade, magblade, and stamplar.

Dracane

Iskiab wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Class Identity: the lowest of all Graphs.

.

1) This graph shows some major problems with scale.

Let´s give an example:

Single target burst potential:

StamNecro, MagSorc, Magblade (!!!), Stemplar, Magplar, StamWarden and possibly Stamblade beat a StamSorc in that department. After the patch, the StamDK, too. If we strictly use ranks we have a scale of 1-12, with 1 being lowest. According to such a scale, a StamSorc would be somewhere between 4 and 6, probably 5. Even in the best case scenario, the StamSorc would rank as 6/12. Which is apparently quite far away from the 7/10 given.

So on a cardinal/ ordinal scale 7/10 is not a correct assessment.

And on a metric scale, even more so, as there are massive burst gaps between Necro and Warden on the one side, and the other classes on the other.

Necroes and Wardens have an additional skill that hits as hard as Dizzy.
Necroes have an additional self-synergy that, again, hits harder than a Dizzy.

In short: With the same weapon skill combo (just assume a Twohander) a StamNecro outbursts a StamSorc by 10k-15k. That's more than twice the damage in the same 3 seconds. And it's more than an Ultimate does.

To make up for that, StamSorcs have 5-10% more base damage and a poor man's Grim Focus. It would be an extraordinary effort to get a 7/10 here, i.e. 70% of the StamNecro's burst damage. Maybe a lucky double crit or something.


2) Obvious mistakes:

- Group heal strength: Must be higher. In fact, 14 StamSorcs in a group outheal everything that doesn't one-hit them. Of course, they are no wardens or templars, but this is a case of "Know your skills", nonetheless.

- damage potential from DoTs is higher, as non- purgable Dots are more valuable than purgable ones.

- single target damage must be higher than single target burst potential

3) hint:

In an optimized 6-man- group a StamSorc has no place at all (since it consists of 3 Wardens, 1 Templar 1 DK and one MagSorc/ Necro); 4/5 aka "good" is s/he only in a Duo with a StamWarden/ StamNecro.

I’d say stamsorc is higher burst than a stamblade, magblade, and stamplar.

I bet you are jesting again.
Stamsorc only has the basics. Dizzying Swing and Onslaught, nothing else. A roughly 5% damage from Amplitude is not nearly as much as everyone here claims.

Iskiab

Dracane wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Class Identity: the lowest of all Graphs.

.

1) This graph shows some major problems with scale.

Let´s give an example:

Single target burst potential:

StamNecro, MagSorc, Magblade (!!!), Stemplar, Magplar, StamWarden and possibly Stamblade beat a StamSorc in that department. After the patch, the StamDK, too. If we strictly use ranks we have a scale of 1-12, with 1 being lowest. According to such a scale, a StamSorc would be somewhere between 4 and 6, probably 5. Even in the best case scenario, the StamSorc would rank as 6/12. Which is apparently quite far away from the 7/10 given.

So on a cardinal/ ordinal scale 7/10 is not a correct assessment.

And on a metric scale, even more so, as there are massive burst gaps between Necro and Warden on the one side, and the other classes on the other.

Necroes and Wardens have an additional skill that hits as hard as Dizzy.
Necroes have an additional self-synergy that, again, hits harder than a Dizzy.

In short: With the same weapon skill combo (just assume a Twohander) a StamNecro outbursts a StamSorc by 10k-15k. That's more than twice the damage in the same 3 seconds. And it's more than an Ultimate does.

To make up for that, StamSorcs have 5-10% more base damage and a poor man's Grim Focus. It would be an extraordinary effort to get a 7/10 here, i.e. 70% of the StamNecro's burst damage. Maybe a lucky double crit or something.


2) Obvious mistakes:

- Group heal strength: Must be higher. In fact, 14 StamSorcs in a group outheal everything that doesn't one-hit them. Of course, they are no wardens or templars, but this is a case of "Know your skills", nonetheless.

- damage potential from DoTs is higher, as non- purgable Dots are more valuable than purgable ones.

- single target damage must be higher than single target burst potential

3) hint:

In an optimized 6-man- group a StamSorc has no place at all (since it consists of 3 Wardens, 1 Templar 1 DK and one MagSorc/ Necro); 4/5 aka "good" is s/he only in a Duo with a StamWarden/ StamNecro.

I’d say stamsorc is higher burst than a stamblade, magblade, and stamplar.

I bet you are jesting again.
Stamsorc only has the basics. Dizzying Swing and Onslaught, nothing else. A roughly 5% damage from Amplitude is not nearly as much as everyone here claims.

Nah. I’ve been bursted down quickly by a stamsorc before, they can hurt. Magblades and stamblades have to use some glassy gank build to accomplish the same thing. Stamplars are usually tanky and not bursty.

Crixus8000

Iskiab wrote: »

Nah. I’ve been bursted down quickly by a stamsorc before, they can hurt. Magblades and stamblades have to use some glassy gank build to accomplish the same thing. Stamplars are usually tanky and not bursty.

Just because you have been bursted down by stamsorcs doesn't magically give them more burst than a class that has an extra skill to combo with. Stamsorc has 2 damage passives and that isn't as good as having an extra burst skill.

I love my stamsorc, but damage is the weak point of the class.

Unified_Gaming

Thraben wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Class Identity: the lowest of all Graphs.

.

1) This graph shows some major problems with scale.

Let´s give an example:

Single target burst potential:

StamNecro, MagSorc, Magblade (!!!), Stemplar, Magplar, StamWarden and possibly Stamblade beat a StamSorc in that department. After the patch, the StamDK, too. If we strictly use ranks we have a scale of 1-12, with 1 being lowest. According to such a scale, a StamSorc would be somewhere between 4 and 6, probably 5. Even in the best case scenario, the StamSorc would rank as 6/12. Which is apparently quite far away from the 7/10 given.

So on a cardinal/ ordinal scale 7/10 is not a correct assessment.

And on a metric scale, even more so, as there are massive burst gaps between Necro and Warden on the one side, and the other classes on the other.

Necroes and Wardens have an additional skill that hits as hard as Dizzy.
Necroes have an additional self-synergy that, again, hits harder than a Dizzy.

In short: With the same weapon skill combo (just assume a Twohander) a StamNecro outbursts a StamSorc by 10k-15k. That's more than twice the damage in the same 3 seconds. And it's more than an Ultimate does.

To make up for that, StamSorcs have 5-10% more base damage and a poor man's Grim Focus. It would be an extraordinary effort to get a 7/10 here, i.e. 70% of the StamNecro's burst damage. Maybe a lucky double crit or something.


2) Obvious mistakes:

- Group heal strength: Must be higher. In fact, 14 StamSorcs in a group outheal everything that doesn't one-hit them. Of course, they are no wardens or templars, but this is a case of "Know your skills", nonetheless.

- damage potential from DoTs is higher, as non- purgable Dots are more valuable than purgable ones.

- single target damage must be higher than single target burst potential

3) hint:

In an optimized 6-man- group a StamSorc has no place at all (since it consists of 3 Wardens, 1 Templar 1 DK and one MagSorc/ Necro); 4/5 aka "good" is s/he only in a Duo with a StamWarden/ StamNecro.

Group heal strength = your ability to heal other players.

As for their burst potential, when using new moon + fury + bs, you can get 24k+ dawbreakers and 22k+ onslaights with 18k dizzy swings easily. This is before amplitude and so yes they on papy look like they hit less like stamdk when you count the number of skills but their skills hit harder to offset it. The only saving grace to their combo is onslaught as it allowed them to benefit from the 10% physical damage and the amplitude passives without any penalty.

A good stamsorc will he evasive and hard to kill due to high healing and will then land some of the highest burst when the target is at full hp but as the target gets lower, yes their damage output drops heavily. However, if the stars align you can 1 shot someone and this is coming from someone whose used them this patch, fought against them and have also discussed with many 1 v x players like zdan, isthereno1else and others.

Do they have issues, yes but damage wise, if you combo and land it correctly then you can punish someone - dizzy, heavy attack then onslaught and you melt people. It isn't as good as stamden, stamcro or stamdk but it isn't bad and a damn sight higher than most mag specs.

Aedaryl

This is busted really.

pieratsos

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

As for stamina sorcerer - dark deal is like 8k hp and allows you to reset the fight. You then have really high passive healing through crit surge and as you have amplitude to aid your damage, you can afford to use more health regen. Therefore, they have high self healing and defence wise, they have armour buffs like all classes but defense on a stamsorc gets heavily aided by passive healing and more importantly movement. As for minor protection, everyone is slotting temporal guard back bar and so have access to it.

Darkdeal is 4k Hp whit the Battelspirit! And it doesn't allow you to reset the fight. The mobility allows to reset the fight!
You say it yourself: Stamsorc defence comes mostly from mobility!

Indeed. Dark Deal is 4k health only and according to the graphs, defense and mobility are 2 different factors.
Yes, their high healing over time and their mobility make stamina sorcerer very hard to take down and even impossible by magicka builds when they use ball of lightning.

But these are not the same according to the graph. When talking about pure tankiness, Templar is significantly tankier than sorcerer, which the graphs do not show as such. According to it, templar has above average tankiness while Sorcerer (magicka) has top level tankiness? I think everyone who has stepped into pvp recently can attest that this is not true. Templar is not just averagely tanky.

If your fight a templar which doesn't have access to breath of life they are then not as tanky as you think or if you're using defile they drop alot faster. As such, sets like affliction work wonderful against them but I do agree, they are tanky in their own way mainly due to block. 10 is average and templar is 16/20 btw showing they're above average but when they're not in their rune and are blocking, they can drop pretty fast from my experience but I do see your point

As for magicka sorcerer, you can literally stack 2 8k-11k shields and still hit 80% mitigation allowing you to take an absolute beating.

Please allow me a question regarding this. I have seen a video of yours where you had a Battleground Sorcerer build and spoke of 80% damage mitigation+armor. But where does this come from? You have 8% from temporal guard and maybe 10% from the swift set.

I thought you meant those %s from ironclad etc. But it was no cp, so. And then again, everyone has these CP. I just don't understand where people see these mitigation %s

I want 80% mitigation on my Sorcerer. Please tell me how, for I will be immortal. Sadly I only have 8% from temporal guard and my 20k armor which gets melted close to 0 anyway.

The build editor is useful to see it as it has the formula built in but in short, in pvp you need to factor in battle spirit, resistances, cp, %damage reduction buffs and then any damage dealt reductions the target has like minor maim. It's easier to use the editor to see it - the reduction we have is due to good armour, % reduction sets/skills and cp as well as being in pvp. If we had minor main on our target then we'd be tankier.

Most pvp builds in cp hit 74-77% with some going over 80%. In the no cp the average is around 67%-72% depending on sets and stuff. My video on how to use the editor has the build linked so worth look

And when u do take account all that all classes have similar ridiculous dmg reduction right?

Yes - some classes are more bulkier than others like dragonkights and necromancer because of passives or extra effects like 10% damage reduction. As with these things, all classes fall within the range and some we be at varying ends of it.

I know but that is actually my point. That is kinda misleading to use that 70-80% dmg reduction as an argument about how tanky a class is considering that its prety much the baseline for all classes. You'd need to look mostly on class specific mechanics to categorize them and compare them in all aspects. Specific "broken" builds which are results of itemization being out of control really have nothing to do with classes themselves and how a top tier player is going to play the class and "translate" mobility into tankiness is also kinda irrelevant unless u are also going to create a new chart based on content (not just rankings).

When u use the term defence on a class u need to look exactly that. What makes the class bulky. Like synergy with block, dmg mitigation passives, resistances, purge etc. You cant put a class with essentially no passvies related to tankiness as a top tier tanky class and then say but its mobile and mobility in the right hands is a top tier defence mechanic when u literally also have a different category where u rank the classes based on their mobility as well or say that u can stack hp regen if u use a set like troll king or whatever.

When u use the term self healing on a class u need to look at exactly that. Hots, burst heals, healing passives etc. You cant put a class with one burst heal and basically nothing else related to healing above every class with burst heals, hots and healing passives and say but u can defile them or that other class is mobile and it has time to recover or whatever. You are essentially mixing everything this way and skewing the results.

I understand that the combat system is too complex and that u cant simply put tags on every class and that no matter what u say its probably going to be wrong unless u make a 10 pages essay with a million different charts and a detailed explanation of how each class plays but again if u are going to keep it in the simplest of forms u need to at least do that.

OrderoftheDarkness

pieratsos wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

As for stamina sorcerer - dark deal is like 8k hp and allows you to reset the fight. You then have really high passive healing through crit surge and as you have amplitude to aid your damage, you can afford to use more health regen. Therefore, they have high self healing and defence wise, they have armour buffs like all classes but defense on a stamsorc gets heavily aided by passive healing and more importantly movement. As for minor protection, everyone is slotting temporal guard back bar and so have access to it.

Darkdeal is 4k Hp whit the Battelspirit! And it doesn't allow you to reset the fight. The mobility allows to reset the fight!
You say it yourself: Stamsorc defence comes mostly from mobility!

Indeed. Dark Deal is 4k health only and according to the graphs, defense and mobility are 2 different factors.
Yes, their high healing over time and their mobility make stamina sorcerer very hard to take down and even impossible by magicka builds when they use ball of lightning.

But these are not the same according to the graph. When talking about pure tankiness, Templar is significantly tankier than sorcerer, which the graphs do not show as such. According to it, templar has above average tankiness while Sorcerer (magicka) has top level tankiness? I think everyone who has stepped into pvp recently can attest that this is not true. Templar is not just averagely tanky.

If your fight a templar which doesn't have access to breath of life they are then not as tanky as you think or if you're using defile they drop alot faster. As such, sets like affliction work wonderful against them but I do agree, they are tanky in their own way mainly due to block. 10 is average and templar is 16/20 btw showing they're above average but when they're not in their rune and are blocking, they can drop pretty fast from my experience but I do see your point

As for magicka sorcerer, you can literally stack 2 8k-11k shields and still hit 80% mitigation allowing you to take an absolute beating.

Please allow me a question regarding this. I have seen a video of yours where you had a Battleground Sorcerer build and spoke of 80% damage mitigation+armor. But where does this come from? You have 8% from temporal guard and maybe 10% from the swift set.

I thought you meant those %s from ironclad etc. But it was no cp, so. And then again, everyone has these CP. I just don't understand where people see these mitigation %s

I want 80% mitigation on my Sorcerer. Please tell me how, for I will be immortal. Sadly I only have 8% from temporal guard and my 20k armor which gets melted close to 0 anyway.

The build editor is useful to see it as it has the formula built in but in short, in pvp you need to factor in battle spirit, resistances, cp, %damage reduction buffs and then any damage dealt reductions the target has like minor maim. It's easier to use the editor to see it - the reduction we have is due to good armour, % reduction sets/skills and cp as well as being in pvp. If we had minor main on our target then we'd be tankier.

Most pvp builds in cp hit 74-77% with some going over 80%. In the no cp the average is around 67%-72% depending on sets and stuff. My video on how to use the editor has the build linked so worth look

And when u do take account all that all classes have similar ridiculous dmg reduction right?

Yes - some classes are more bulkier than others like dragonkights and necromancer because of passives or extra effects like 10% damage reduction. As with these things, all classes fall within the range and some we be at varying ends of it.

I know but that is actually my point. That is kinda misleading to use that 70-80% dmg reduction as an argument about how tanky a class is considering that its prety much the baseline for all classes. You'd need to look mostly on class specific mechanics to categorize them and compare them in all aspects. Specific "broken" builds which are results of itemization being out of control really have nothing to do with classes themselves and how a top tier player is going to play the class and "translate" mobility into tankiness is also kinda irrelevant unless u are also going to create a new chart based on content (not just rankings).

When u use the term defence on a class u need to look exactly that. What makes the class bulky. Like synergy with block, dmg mitigation passives, resistances, purge etc. You cant put a class with essentially no passvies related to tankiness as a top tier tanky class and then say but its mobile and mobility in the right hands is a top tier defence mechanic when u literally also have a different category where u rank the classes based on their mobility as well or say that u can stack hp regen if u use a set like troll king or whatever.

When u use the term self healing on a class u need to look at exactly that. Hots, burst heals, healing passives etc. You cant put a class with one burst heal and basically nothing else related to healing above every class with burst heals, hots and healing passives and say but u can defile them or that other class is mobile and it has time to recover or whatever. You are essentially mixing everything this way and skewing the results.

I understand that the combat system is too complex and that u cant simply put tags on every class and that no matter what u say its probably going to be wrong unless u make a 10 pages essay with a million different charts and a detailed explanation of how each class plays but again if u are going to keep it in the simplest of forms u need to at least do that.

I understand that this is my point of view, but it's actually much simpler. Regardless of how you try to disguise the message by surrounding it with clever details and wordplay, you can't say that mobility is not tankiness, because there are only three directions in the game: damage, tankiness, and healing. Following these three Golden rules, even evade is tankiness.
You can imagine as much as you want, that a class with mobility is a high level of skill, but there is an obvious fact - this is the only thing that does not have a counter. The nightblades don't see a prospect in teleport strike to fight this.

Iskiab

Aedaryl wrote: »

This is busted really.

Heavy attack changes and vampire will change everything anyways. Dizzy - heavy - ult (would you even need onslaught?) will be nasty post patch. Vampire will be predominantly mag.. maybe, might help stam more... so destro heavies might be good? Who knows. Point being everything will change after this patch I think.

pieratsos

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

As for stamina sorcerer - dark deal is like 8k hp and allows you to reset the fight. You then have really high passive healing through crit surge and as you have amplitude to aid your damage, you can afford to use more health regen. Therefore, they have high self healing and defence wise, they have armour buffs like all classes but defense on a stamsorc gets heavily aided by passive healing and more importantly movement. As for minor protection, everyone is slotting temporal guard back bar and so have access to it.

Darkdeal is 4k Hp whit the Battelspirit! And it doesn't allow you to reset the fight. The mobility allows to reset the fight!
You say it yourself: Stamsorc defence comes mostly from mobility!

Indeed. Dark Deal is 4k health only and according to the graphs, defense and mobility are 2 different factors.
Yes, their high healing over time and their mobility make stamina sorcerer very hard to take down and even impossible by magicka builds when they use ball of lightning.

But these are not the same according to the graph. When talking about pure tankiness, Templar is significantly tankier than sorcerer, which the graphs do not show as such. According to it, templar has above average tankiness while Sorcerer (magicka) has top level tankiness? I think everyone who has stepped into pvp recently can attest that this is not true. Templar is not just averagely tanky.

If your fight a templar which doesn't have access to breath of life they are then not as tanky as you think or if you're using defile they drop alot faster. As such, sets like affliction work wonderful against them but I do agree, they are tanky in their own way mainly due to block. 10 is average and templar is 16/20 btw showing they're above average but when they're not in their rune and are blocking, they can drop pretty fast from my experience but I do see your point

As for magicka sorcerer, you can literally stack 2 8k-11k shields and still hit 80% mitigation allowing you to take an absolute beating.

Please allow me a question regarding this. I have seen a video of yours where you had a Battleground Sorcerer build and spoke of 80% damage mitigation+armor. But where does this come from? You have 8% from temporal guard and maybe 10% from the swift set.

I thought you meant those %s from ironclad etc. But it was no cp, so. And then again, everyone has these CP. I just don't understand where people see these mitigation %s

I want 80% mitigation on my Sorcerer. Please tell me how, for I will be immortal. Sadly I only have 8% from temporal guard and my 20k armor which gets melted close to 0 anyway.

The build editor is useful to see it as it has the formula built in but in short, in pvp you need to factor in battle spirit, resistances, cp, %damage reduction buffs and then any damage dealt reductions the target has like minor maim. It's easier to use the editor to see it - the reduction we have is due to good armour, % reduction sets/skills and cp as well as being in pvp. If we had minor main on our target then we'd be tankier.

Most pvp builds in cp hit 74-77% with some going over 80%. In the no cp the average is around 67%-72% depending on sets and stuff. My video on how to use the editor has the build linked so worth look

And when u do take account all that all classes have similar ridiculous dmg reduction right?

Yes - some classes are more bulkier than others like dragonkights and necromancer because of passives or extra effects like 10% damage reduction. As with these things, all classes fall within the range and some we be at varying ends of it.

I know but that is actually my point. That is kinda misleading to use that 70-80% dmg reduction as an argument about how tanky a class is considering that its prety much the baseline for all classes. You'd need to look mostly on class specific mechanics to categorize them and compare them in all aspects. Specific "broken" builds which are results of itemization being out of control really have nothing to do with classes themselves and how a top tier player is going to play the class and "translate" mobility into tankiness is also kinda irrelevant unless u are also going to create a new chart based on content (not just rankings).

When u use the term defence on a class u need to look exactly that. What makes the class bulky. Like synergy with block, dmg mitigation passives, resistances, purge etc. You cant put a class with essentially no passvies related to tankiness as a top tier tanky class and then say but its mobile and mobility in the right hands is a top tier defence mechanic when u literally also have a different category where u rank the classes based on their mobility as well or say that u can stack hp regen if u use a set like troll king or whatever.

When u use the term self healing on a class u need to look at exactly that. Hots, burst heals, healing passives etc. You cant put a class with one burst heal and basically nothing else related to healing above every class with burst heals, hots and healing passives and say but u can defile them or that other class is mobile and it has time to recover or whatever. You are essentially mixing everything this way and skewing the results.

I understand that the combat system is too complex and that u cant simply put tags on every class and that no matter what u say its probably going to be wrong unless u make a 10 pages essay with a million different charts and a detailed explanation of how each class plays but again if u are going to keep it in the simplest of forms u need to at least do that.

I understand that this is my point of view, but it's actually much simpler. Regardless of how you try to disguise the message by surrounding it with clever details and wordplay, you can't say that mobility is not tankiness, because there are only three directions in the game: damage, tankiness, and healing. Following these three Golden rules, even evade is tankiness.
You can imagine as much as you want, that a class with mobility is a high level of skill, but there is an obvious fact - this is the only thing that does not have a counter. The nightblades don't see a prospect in teleport strike to fight this.

Im not trying to disguise anything in clever details and wordplay. Im saying it as it is. And i never said that mobility isnt tankiness. It is tankiness, in fact its probably the best "version" of tankiness in the game. However, when u start mixing up the mechanics and how they interact with each other you are skewing the results no matter how correct you are because you give a false representation of what each class excels at which is the whole freaking point of the chart.

You actually prove my point with the three golden rules. Evade is indeed tankiness. And guess what, stamblades are very evasive and they can be incredibly hard to kill. Does that mean they get a top rating at defence? No. They are rogues ffs, not tanks. Lets bring itemization into this too. Its relevant right? Ok, i can make a stamblade build and be a brawler so it could get a top tier defence rating right? No. But why not? Well i dont know, why not give everyone a top rating in sustain too? I mean i can stack sustain on any class and have seemingly infinite sustain. Why not give everyone a top rating in burst too? I can stack dmg on any class too. Why does a class goes from low tier healing rating to top tier healing rating with just one burst heal addition but then a class with hots, burst heals and healing passives gets mediocre healing rating at best? Why does this class gets this and this class gets that? You get where this is going? Yeah that was exactly my point. That you are skewing the results and misinform someone about what each class excels at.

So yeah it is actually much simpler. You use a chart to describe the advantages and disadvantages of each class. A player gets the chart, see what each class excels at and its up to him/her to play around those advantages and achieve the actual correct results. Meaning, good defence on a mobile class because he played the class as it should be played. But when you put a god tier rating on sorc's defence and a very good defence rating on NBs guess what is going to happen. A new player will see that chart get his NB/sorc to PVP thinking he is some kind of a tank monster and gets his head bashed in, in 2 seconds. And thats alright we all start somewhere. But the problem is that poor guy wont even know where to begin because he actually thinks he is supposed to be a tank. Well newsflash, they are not tanks. They kite to achieve their defence capabilities. They dont brawl.

JumpmanLane

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Because it's folly. Adding 20% resistance from armor to that 50% battle spirit does not amount to 70% damage reduction. Because these 20% are taken from that which is left after battle spirit.

All our tooltips are reduced by 50% in pvp, so that is nothing I would call damage reduction to begin with. After penetration, a Sorcerer maybe has like 18% actual damage reduction in pvp with minor protection. Likely even less.

He is talking about the UESP-Build-editor. Even whitout the 50% Battespirit you have much more than 18%.
whit 20k Armor = 30% reduction
Minor Protection: 8%
Hardy/Elemental defender(43): mostly 10%
Ironclad(56): 20%
0.7x0.92x0.9x0.8=0.46 => 54% dmg reduction
whit Battelspirit 0.46x0.5 =>77% dmg reduction
And that's all things that every class have access to. Whit rather low Armor...
And everyone is wondering why we have a tank meta....

Armor is not real damage reduction. I mean, everyone has 10k-17k armor penetration. So 20k armor is almost nothing after that.

I agree though. It is incredibly easy to be super tanky. Defense is also cheaper to maintain than offense. So yea, being defensive is way too easy in pvp. Particularly because damage scales horribly in pvp. All weapon/spell damage you gain is first cut in half by battlespirit and then greatly diminished by enemy resistances.

Means that even with a heavy investment into damage, barely anything gets through. So it is preferable to play tanky, as building for damage does almost nothing except for essentially lowering your damage for you are vulnerable and squishy and barely have time to attack.

Sort of. Most defense is from self healing so if you’re too tanky you’ll never get through someone’s hots. Being really tanky is moreso a small scale thing I think; you can be tanky because a group Ult dump by multiple people will still be able to kill someone.

I don’t mean go stamblade divines with 18k health garbage, I just mean offense vs defense is a balancing act. More max stats also means better self healing so sacrificing too much for defense doesn’t work too well imo.

The thing people never talk about is that there becomes a point where stacking more damage proves pointless.

Can you elaborate? Do you mean penentration type builds specifically or max stat builds?

Basically people seem to think that stacking damage is the way and it isn't. For example, a mate wanted to use newmoon + fury on a stamplar with bloodspawn. He made it and said he was hitting really hard but had sustain issues. I told him to drop fury for bone pirate and he called me crazy but once he did he noticed that for 50-60% of the fight his damage was higher and even when fury overtook due to 12 stacks + then did he get more damage. The total difference on dizzy swing between fury and bone pirate on the build was 1200 tool tip approx which after reductions etc is about 400 more damage a hit. He concluded that bone pirate worked better as it gave him sustain and equitable damage of which he killed people in the same time frame.

This is also true for magicka too on the whole, my magicka warden build has an 18k deeper fissure tool tip buffed before continous with necro + alfique and around 20k armour with 1500 regen. On my resistor build, it has a deep fissure tool tip of 16.8k buffed without continuous but has 1800 regen and 28k armour. So in an actual fight, having an extra 1200-1700 on a tool tip instead of 8k more armour and 300 more regen isn't worth it because at the end of the day, that extra 400 after battle spirit will not get the difference between getting a kill or not.

I found that the game is designed to allow you to run 1 of each set and be highly effective - damage, sustain and defence and then use glyphs and mundus stone to refine it, building around racial bonuses.

My stamina necromancer is an example of this, new moon + bone pirate with bloodspawn and I still have a blast bones tool top of over 20k. As such, my point is that stacking into damage although helpful early on gets heavily diminished and so I would take slightly less damage for more defence and regen.

Make sense?

I was always taught, if you can add anything add damage. So, I always ran high pen/ high damage builds.

Lately, I’ve been running more solid builds just as you’ve said. 100% spot on I’d say. Good post.

Iskiab

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Because it's folly. Adding 20% resistance from armor to that 50% battle spirit does not amount to 70% damage reduction. Because these 20% are taken from that which is left after battle spirit.

All our tooltips are reduced by 50% in pvp, so that is nothing I would call damage reduction to begin with. After penetration, a Sorcerer maybe has like 18% actual damage reduction in pvp with minor protection. Likely even less.

He is talking about the UESP-Build-editor. Even whitout the 50% Battespirit you have much more than 18%.
whit 20k Armor = 30% reduction
Minor Protection: 8%
Hardy/Elemental defender(43): mostly 10%
Ironclad(56): 20%
0.7x0.92x0.9x0.8=0.46 => 54% dmg reduction
whit Battelspirit 0.46x0.5 =>77% dmg reduction
And that's all things that every class have access to. Whit rather low Armor...
And everyone is wondering why we have a tank meta....

Armor is not real damage reduction. I mean, everyone has 10k-17k armor penetration. So 20k armor is almost nothing after that.

I agree though. It is incredibly easy to be super tanky. Defense is also cheaper to maintain than offense. So yea, being defensive is way too easy in pvp. Particularly because damage scales horribly in pvp. All weapon/spell damage you gain is first cut in half by battlespirit and then greatly diminished by enemy resistances.

Means that even with a heavy investment into damage, barely anything gets through. So it is preferable to play tanky, as building for damage does almost nothing except for essentially lowering your damage for you are vulnerable and squishy and barely have time to attack.

Sort of. Most defense is from self healing so if you’re too tanky you’ll never get through someone’s hots. Being really tanky is moreso a small scale thing I think; you can be tanky because a group Ult dump by multiple people will still be able to kill someone.

I don’t mean go stamblade divines with 18k health garbage, I just mean offense vs defense is a balancing act. More max stats also means better self healing so sacrificing too much for defense doesn’t work too well imo.

The thing people never talk about is that there becomes a point where stacking more damage proves pointless.

Can you elaborate? Do you mean penentration type builds specifically or max stat builds?

Basically people seem to think that stacking damage is the way and it isn't. For example, a mate wanted to use newmoon + fury on a stamplar with bloodspawn. He made it and said he was hitting really hard but had sustain issues. I told him to drop fury for bone pirate and he called me crazy but once he did he noticed that for 50-60% of the fight his damage was higher and even when fury overtook due to 12 stacks + then did he get more damage. The total difference on dizzy swing between fury and bone pirate on the build was 1200 tool tip approx which after reductions etc is about 400 more damage a hit. He concluded that bone pirate worked better as it gave him sustain and equitable damage of which he killed people in the same time frame.

This is also true for magicka too on the whole, my magicka warden build has an 18k deeper fissure tool tip buffed before continous with necro + alfique and around 20k armour with 1500 regen. On my resistor build, it has a deep fissure tool tip of 16.8k buffed without continuous but has 1800 regen and 28k armour. So in an actual fight, having an extra 1200-1700 on a tool tip instead of 8k more armour and 300 more regen isn't worth it because at the end of the day, that extra 400 after battle spirit will not get the difference between getting a kill or not.

I found that the game is designed to allow you to run 1 of each set and be highly effective - damage, sustain and defence and then use glyphs and mundus stone to refine it, building around racial bonuses.

My stamina necromancer is an example of this, new moon + bone pirate with bloodspawn and I still have a blast bones tool top of over 20k. As such, my point is that stacking into damage although helpful early on gets heavily diminished and so I would take slightly less damage for more defence and regen.

Make sense?

I was always taught, if you can add anything add damage. So, I always ran high pen/ high damage builds.

Lately, I’ve been running more solid builds just as you’ve said. 100% spot on I’d say. Good post.

Yea, one caveat. High damage stats means high healing too. Pen is pure damage, but max stats have a defensive nature as well, same with crit. I’ve made some tanky builds wearing no defensive set purely from high self healing going for max stats. It worked better when button presses worked reliably, but classes with good self healing and good defensive abilities can pull it off.

YandereGirlfriend

Tolino wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Because it's folly. Adding 20% resistance from armor to that 50% battle spirit does not amount to 70% damage reduction. Because these 20% are taken from that which is left after battle spirit.

All our tooltips are reduced by 50% in pvp, so that is nothing I would call damage reduction to begin with. After penetration, a Sorcerer maybe has like 18% actual damage reduction in pvp with minor protection. Likely even less.

He is talking about the UESP-Build-editor. Even whitout the 50% Battespirit you have much more than 18%.
whit 20k Armor = 30% reduction
Minor Protection: 8%
Hardy/Elemental defender(43): mostly 10%
Ironclad(56): 20%
0.7x0.92x0.9x0.8=0.46 => 54% dmg reduction
whit Battelspirit 0.46x0.5 =>77% dmg reduction
And that's all things that every class have access to. Whit rather low Armor...
And everyone is wondering why we have a tank meta....

What this says to me is that CP Cyrodiil should simply be chucked into the garbage and all PvP should be BG-style with no CP.

Not only would it be more performant but people would actually have to make hard tradeoffs between damage, sustain, and tankiness instead of getting it for free via CP.

Unified_Gaming

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Because it's folly. Adding 20% resistance from armor to that 50% battle spirit does not amount to 70% damage reduction. Because these 20% are taken from that which is left after battle spirit.

All our tooltips are reduced by 50% in pvp, so that is nothing I would call damage reduction to begin with. After penetration, a Sorcerer maybe has like 18% actual damage reduction in pvp with minor protection. Likely even less.

He is talking about the UESP-Build-editor. Even whitout the 50% Battespirit you have much more than 18%.
whit 20k Armor = 30% reduction
Minor Protection: 8%
Hardy/Elemental defender(43): mostly 10%
Ironclad(56): 20%
0.7x0.92x0.9x0.8=0.46 => 54% dmg reduction
whit Battelspirit 0.46x0.5 =>77% dmg reduction
And that's all things that every class have access to. Whit rather low Armor...
And everyone is wondering why we have a tank meta....

What this says to me is that CP Cyrodiil should simply be chucked into the garbage and all PvP should be BG-style with no CP.

Not only would it be more performant but people would actually have to make hard tradeoffs between damage, sustain, and tankiness instead of getting it for free via CP.

I agree in parts. I think cp is nice for sustain and movement - i would sacrifice the blue and red in favour of keeping the green cost reductions but add then as a base to battle spirit. So you get 20% break free cost, 10% roll and block cost and sprint reduction with 10% sustain. It's the green cp tree that is the kicker for most people as well as the extra health and stats which make people tankier.

OrderoftheDarkness

pieratsos wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

As for stamina sorcerer - dark deal is like 8k hp and allows you to reset the fight. You then have really high passive healing through crit surge and as you have amplitude to aid your damage, you can afford to use more health regen. Therefore, they have high self healing and defence wise, they have armour buffs like all classes but defense on a stamsorc gets heavily aided by passive healing and more importantly movement. As for minor protection, everyone is slotting temporal guard back bar and so have access to it.

Darkdeal is 4k Hp whit the Battelspirit! And it doesn't allow you to reset the fight. The mobility allows to reset the fight!
You say it yourself: Stamsorc defence comes mostly from mobility!

Indeed. Dark Deal is 4k health only and according to the graphs, defense and mobility are 2 different factors.
Yes, their high healing over time and their mobility make stamina sorcerer very hard to take down and even impossible by magicka builds when they use ball of lightning.

But these are not the same according to the graph. When talking about pure tankiness, Templar is significantly tankier than sorcerer, which the graphs do not show as such. According to it, templar has above average tankiness while Sorcerer (magicka) has top level tankiness? I think everyone who has stepped into pvp recently can attest that this is not true. Templar is not just averagely tanky.

If your fight a templar which doesn't have access to breath of life they are then not as tanky as you think or if you're using defile they drop alot faster. As such, sets like affliction work wonderful against them but I do agree, they are tanky in their own way mainly due to block. 10 is average and templar is 16/20 btw showing they're above average but when they're not in their rune and are blocking, they can drop pretty fast from my experience but I do see your point

As for magicka sorcerer, you can literally stack 2 8k-11k shields and still hit 80% mitigation allowing you to take an absolute beating.

Please allow me a question regarding this. I have seen a video of yours where you had a Battleground Sorcerer build and spoke of 80% damage mitigation+armor. But where does this come from? You have 8% from temporal guard and maybe 10% from the swift set.

I thought you meant those %s from ironclad etc. But it was no cp, so. And then again, everyone has these CP. I just don't understand where people see these mitigation %s

I want 80% mitigation on my Sorcerer. Please tell me how, for I will be immortal. Sadly I only have 8% from temporal guard and my 20k armor which gets melted close to 0 anyway.

The build editor is useful to see it as it has the formula built in but in short, in pvp you need to factor in battle spirit, resistances, cp, %damage reduction buffs and then any damage dealt reductions the target has like minor maim. It's easier to use the editor to see it - the reduction we have is due to good armour, % reduction sets/skills and cp as well as being in pvp. If we had minor main on our target then we'd be tankier.

Most pvp builds in cp hit 74-77% with some going over 80%. In the no cp the average is around 67%-72% depending on sets and stuff. My video on how to use the editor has the build linked so worth look

And when u do take account all that all classes have similar ridiculous dmg reduction right?

Yes - some classes are more bulkier than others like dragonkights and necromancer because of passives or extra effects like 10% damage reduction. As with these things, all classes fall within the range and some we be at varying ends of it.

I know but that is actually my point. That is kinda misleading to use that 70-80% dmg reduction as an argument about how tanky a class is considering that its prety much the baseline for all classes. You'd need to look mostly on class specific mechanics to categorize them and compare them in all aspects. Specific "broken" builds which are results of itemization being out of control really have nothing to do with classes themselves and how a top tier player is going to play the class and "translate" mobility into tankiness is also kinda irrelevant unless u are also going to create a new chart based on content (not just rankings).

When u use the term defence on a class u need to look exactly that. What makes the class bulky. Like synergy with block, dmg mitigation passives, resistances, purge etc. You cant put a class with essentially no passvies related to tankiness as a top tier tanky class and then say but its mobile and mobility in the right hands is a top tier defence mechanic when u literally also have a different category where u rank the classes based on their mobility as well or say that u can stack hp regen if u use a set like troll king or whatever.

When u use the term self healing on a class u need to look at exactly that. Hots, burst heals, healing passives etc. You cant put a class with one burst heal and basically nothing else related to healing above every class with burst heals, hots and healing passives and say but u can defile them or that other class is mobile and it has time to recover or whatever. You are essentially mixing everything this way and skewing the results.

I understand that the combat system is too complex and that u cant simply put tags on every class and that no matter what u say its probably going to be wrong unless u make a 10 pages essay with a million different charts and a detailed explanation of how each class plays but again if u are going to keep it in the simplest of forms u need to at least do that.

I understand that this is my point of view, but it's actually much simpler. Regardless of how you try to disguise the message by surrounding it with clever details and wordplay, you can't say that mobility is not tankiness, because there are only three directions in the game: damage, tankiness, and healing. Following these three Golden rules, even evade is tankiness.
You can imagine as much as you want, that a class with mobility is a high level of skill, but there is an obvious fact - this is the only thing that does not have a counter. The nightblades don't see a prospect in teleport strike to fight this.

Im not trying to disguise anything in clever details and wordplay. Im saying it as it is. And i never said that mobility isnt tankiness. It is tankiness, in fact its probably the best "version" of tankiness in the game. However, when u start mixing up the mechanics and how they interact with each other you are skewing the results no matter how correct you are because you give a false representation of what each class excels at which is the whole freaking point of the chart.

You actually prove my point with the three golden rules. Evade is indeed tankiness. And guess what, stamblades are very evasive and they can be incredibly hard to kill. Does that mean they get a top rating at defence? No. They are rogues ffs, not tanks. Lets bring itemization into this too. Its relevant right? Ok, i can make a stamblade build and be a brawler so it could get a top tier defence rating right? No. But why not? Well i dont know, why not give everyone a top rating in sustain too? I mean i can stack sustain on any class and have seemingly infinite sustain. Why not give everyone a top rating in burst too? I can stack dmg on any class too. Why does a class goes from low tier healing rating to top tier healing rating with just one burst heal addition but then a class with hots, burst heals and healing passives gets mediocre healing rating at best? Why does this class gets this and this class gets that? You get where this is going? Yeah that was exactly my point. That you are skewing the results and misinform someone about what each class excels at.

So yeah it is actually much simpler. You use a chart to describe the advantages and disadvantages of each class. A player gets the chart, see what each class excels at and its up to him/her to play around those advantages and achieve the actual correct results. Meaning, good defence on a mobile class because he played the class as it should be played. But when you put a god tier rating on sorc's defence and a very good defence rating on NBs guess what is going to happen. A new player will see that chart get his NB/sorc to PVP thinking he is some kind of a tank monster and gets his head bashed in, in 2 seconds. And thats alright we all start somewhere. But the problem is that poor guy wont even know where to begin because he actually thinks he is supposed to be a tank. Well newsflash, they are not tanks. They kite to achieve their defence capabilities. They dont brawl.

Thanks for clarifying. I apologize if I misunderstood you.

I meant that there is a counter against Nbs, which is relies on the cloak(let's call it a Nbs kind of tankiness). As for Sorcs, Streak does not have a counter, especially in combination with Dark Exchange. The only counter we can see in another class is Teleport Strike, but what can it do against Shields Sorcs or Stam sorcs that spam Streak(CCs) + Dark Exchange. It's not the first time I've said that Nbs is characterized as a Sorcs counter, but they don't do their job. That's why I agree with the diagram. Perhaps there are not enough special details, but the meaning is transmitted correctly. Although you're right, if a new player sees this chart, they might actually get confused.

P. S. I think to some extent Sorcs really is a god tier defense. I can give you an example of How BGS is dominated by teams from Sorcs. Let's even exclude Deathmatch from the example. In other BGs modes, all the conditions are created for the Sorcs game.
Following this logic, there is no need for other BG mods, because one class can do better than all the others - relics, Chaos Ball, teleportation between flags. If Sorcs are good and are on the same team, nothing can stop them(they calmly exclude healers, full tanks, etc). For example Nbs will not run with a relic or with Chaos ball in a cloak.

RedFireDisco

Haha,

Magblade is complete garbage. Sounds about right.

Just hop on buildeditor and kit out your sets and change each class. Watch how low NB tooltips are. What's the point of rolling one? Sorc does everything better.

Just roll a Sorc for trials.