PvP class' stengths/weaknesses graphs - Harrowstorm

Unified_Gaming

Ever wanted to know what each class is good and bad at? Then make sure to check out our graphs. The video provides a break down of each class so you know what they excel at and what they don't and what's more, the ranking system and who has reviewed the graphs are explained in more detail so I'd recommend watching the video.

https://youtu.be/gI2SO2vA3TQ

Enjoy!

preview:



Images at:

https://imgur.com/gallery/l87j9E5

OlumoGarbag

Where on earth do you see mobility on Magicka Warden? Even Magicka necro the second slowest class in the has more mobility due to the fact you can cleanse yourself for free, while magden has to spam netch and still doesent get all snares and roots removed?

MashmalloMan

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Where on earth do you see mobility on Magicka Warden? Even Magicka necro the second slowest class in the has more mobility due to the fact you can cleanse yourself for free, while magden has to spam netch and still doesent get all snares and roots removed?

Not that I can completely agree with the graphs, I think it's impossible to quantify these aspects of classes since you only have so many slots and it largely depends on what you choose to use. Warden has the longest source of major expedtion in the game which is probably why it's higher.

I'm willing to bet cleanse =/= speed when considering graphs like this, even if you did, Warden + Minor Cleansing does seem to have more speed than Necro + Major Cleansing as a direct comparison.

Iskiab

Nice, I always like your videos. Very insightful.

Dracane

So according to your images, magicka sorcerer is top tier in pvp. Alright. And also more defense than templar.
But I still like you and your videos and feel you have good insight.

Tolino

Why does the Stamsorc have the same healing/defence as the Stamden?
Stamsoc doesn't have any defensiv Passives vs 100%Minor Protection + Minor Toupghness...
And how is KritSurge better than Major Mending.
Stamsorc has also better defence than Stamplar... I mean Minor Protection,10%Block Migation, cleans, Spellresistenz are clearly worse than nothing...

Dracane

Tolino wrote: »

Why does the Stamsorc have the same healing/defence as the Stamden?
Stamsoc doesn't have any defensiv Passives vs 100%Minor Protection + Minor Toupghness...
And how is KritSurge better than Major Mending.
Stamsorc has also better defence than Stamplar... I mean Minor Protection,10%Block Migation, cleans, Spellresistenz are clearly worse than nothing...

There is a good deal of wishing and fantasy in these charts for sure.

Unified_Gaming

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Where on earth do you see mobility on Magicka Warden? Even Magicka necro the second slowest class in the has more mobility due to the fact you can cleanse yourself for free, while magden has to spam netch and still doesent get all snares and roots removed?

Major expedition with bird of prey then Betty netch spam to remove snares. You also have a passive to reduce snare strength too. I main magden.

Magnecro is alot slower as a class but can access race against time and see a good damage increase thus helping it.

Tolino wrote: »

Why does the Stamsorc have the same healing/defence as the Stamden?
Stamsoc doesn't have any defensiv Passives vs 100%Minor Protection + Minor Toupghness...
And how is KritSurge better than Major Mending.
Stamsorc has also better defence than Stamplar... I mean Minor Protection,10%Block Migation, cleans, Spellresistenz are clearly worse than nothing...

As for stamina sorcerer - dark deal is like 8k hp and allows you to reset the fight. You then have really high passive healing through crit surge and as you have amplitude to aid your damage, you can afford to use more health regen. Therefore, they have high self healing and defence wise, they have armour buffs like all classes but defense on a stamsorc gets heavily aided by passive healing and more importantly movement. As for minor protection, everyone is slotting temporal guard back bar and so have access to it.

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Why does the Stamsorc have the same healing/defence as the Stamden?
Stamsoc doesn't have any defensiv Passives vs 100%Minor Protection + Minor Toupghness...
And how is KritSurge better than Major Mending.
Stamsorc has also better defence than Stamplar... I mean Minor Protection,10%Block Migation, cleans, Spellresistenz are clearly worse than nothing...

There is a good deal of wishing and fantasy in these charts for sure.

Like with these things, there are always some form of bias but to help mitigate this, I've run them pass many people including zDan, isthereno1else and loads of his discord who include other youtubers like il Lobo il, sniker etc.

All in all, these are aimed at giving people a good indication on what their class is good at and bad at and thus can play to the strengths whilst fixing the weaknesses.

technohic

Posting to just tag and take a look later during "work" from home.

Tolino

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

As for stamina sorcerer - dark deal is like 8k hp and allows you to reset the fight. You then have really high passive healing through crit surge and as you have amplitude to aid your damage, you can afford to use more health regen. Therefore, they have high self healing and defence wise, they have armour buffs like all classes but defense on a stamsorc gets heavily aided by passive healing and more importantly movement. As for minor protection, everyone is slotting temporal guard back bar and so have access to it.

Darkdeal is 4k Hp whit the Battelspirit! And it doesn't allow you to reset the fight. The mobility allows to reset the fight!
You say it yourself: Stamsorc defence comes mostly from mobility!

Iskiab

So for BGs solo and group. Would solo rankings be all new player BGs and group BG rankings be for BG veterans? There isn’t a group queue anymore and in general veterans stick together.

Dracane

Tolino wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

As for stamina sorcerer - dark deal is like 8k hp and allows you to reset the fight. You then have really high passive healing through crit surge and as you have amplitude to aid your damage, you can afford to use more health regen. Therefore, they have high self healing and defence wise, they have armour buffs like all classes but defense on a stamsorc gets heavily aided by passive healing and more importantly movement. As for minor protection, everyone is slotting temporal guard back bar and so have access to it.

Darkdeal is 4k Hp whit the Battelspirit! And it doesn't allow you to reset the fight. The mobility allows to reset the fight!
You say it yourself: Stamsorc defence comes mostly from mobility!

Indeed. Dark Deal is 4k health only and according to the graphs, defense and mobility are 2 different factors.
Yes, their high healing over time and their mobility make stamina sorcerer very hard to take down and even impossible by magicka builds when they use ball of lightning.

But these are not the same according to the graph. When talking about pure tankiness, Templar is significantly tankier than sorcerer, which the graphs do not show as such. According to it, templar has above average tankiness while Sorcerer (magicka) has top level tankiness? I think everyone who has stepped into pvp recently can attest that this is not true. Templar is not just averagely tanky.

Unified_Gaming

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

As for stamina sorcerer - dark deal is like 8k hp and allows you to reset the fight. You then have really high passive healing through crit surge and as you have amplitude to aid your damage, you can afford to use more health regen. Therefore, they have high self healing and defence wise, they have armour buffs like all classes but defense on a stamsorc gets heavily aided by passive healing and more importantly movement. As for minor protection, everyone is slotting temporal guard back bar and so have access to it.

Darkdeal is 4k Hp whit the Battelspirit! And it doesn't allow you to reset the fight. The mobility allows to reset the fight!
You say it yourself: Stamsorc defence comes mostly from mobility!

Indeed. Dark Deal is 4k health only and according to the graphs, defense and mobility are 2 different factors.
Yes, their high healing over time and their mobility make stamina sorcerer very hard to take down and even impossible by magicka builds when they use ball of lightning.

But these are not the same according to the graph. When talking about pure tankiness, Templar is significantly tankier than sorcerer, which the graphs do not show as such. According to it, templar has above average tankiness while Sorcerer (magicka) has top level tankiness? I think everyone who has stepped into pvp recently can attest that this is not true. Templar is not just averagely tanky.

If your fight a templar which doesn't have access to breath of life they are then not as tanky as you think or if you're using defile they drop alot faster. As such, sets like affliction work wonderful against them but I do agree, they are tanky in their own way mainly due to block. 10 is average and templar is 16/20 btw showing they're above average but when they're not in their rune and are blocking, they can drop pretty fast from my experience but I do see your point

As for magicka sorcerer, you can literally stack 2 8k-11k shields and still hit 80% mitigation allowing you to take an absolute beating.

Dracane

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

As for stamina sorcerer - dark deal is like 8k hp and allows you to reset the fight. You then have really high passive healing through crit surge and as you have amplitude to aid your damage, you can afford to use more health regen. Therefore, they have high self healing and defence wise, they have armour buffs like all classes but defense on a stamsorc gets heavily aided by passive healing and more importantly movement. As for minor protection, everyone is slotting temporal guard back bar and so have access to it.

Darkdeal is 4k Hp whit the Battelspirit! And it doesn't allow you to reset the fight. The mobility allows to reset the fight!
You say it yourself: Stamsorc defence comes mostly from mobility!

Indeed. Dark Deal is 4k health only and according to the graphs, defense and mobility are 2 different factors.
Yes, their high healing over time and their mobility make stamina sorcerer very hard to take down and even impossible by magicka builds when they use ball of lightning.

But these are not the same according to the graph. When talking about pure tankiness, Templar is significantly tankier than sorcerer, which the graphs do not show as such. According to it, templar has above average tankiness while Sorcerer (magicka) has top level tankiness? I think everyone who has stepped into pvp recently can attest that this is not true. Templar is not just averagely tanky.

If your fight a templar which doesn't have access to breath of life they are then not as tanky as you think or if you're using defile they drop alot faster. As such, sets like affliction work wonderful against them but I do agree, they are tanky in their own way mainly due to block. 10 is average and templar is 16/20 btw showing they're above average but when they're not in their rune and are blocking, they can drop pretty fast from my experience but I do see your point

As for magicka sorcerer, you can literally stack 2 8k-11k shields and still hit 80% mitigation allowing you to take an absolute beating.

Please allow me a question regarding this. I have seen a video of yours where you had a Battleground Sorcerer build and spoke of 80% damage mitigation+armor. But where does this come from? You have 8% from temporal guard and maybe 10% from the swift set.

I thought you meant those %s from ironclad etc. But it was no cp, so. And then again, everyone has these CP. I just don't understand where people see these mitigation %s

I want 80% mitigation on my Sorcerer. Please tell me how, for I will be immortal. Sadly I only have 8% from temporal guard and my 20k armor which gets melted close to 0 anyway.

Unified_Gaming

Dracane wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

As for stamina sorcerer - dark deal is like 8k hp and allows you to reset the fight. You then have really high passive healing through crit surge and as you have amplitude to aid your damage, you can afford to use more health regen. Therefore, they have high self healing and defence wise, they have armour buffs like all classes but defense on a stamsorc gets heavily aided by passive healing and more importantly movement. As for minor protection, everyone is slotting temporal guard back bar and so have access to it.

Darkdeal is 4k Hp whit the Battelspirit! And it doesn't allow you to reset the fight. The mobility allows to reset the fight!
You say it yourself: Stamsorc defence comes mostly from mobility!

Indeed. Dark Deal is 4k health only and according to the graphs, defense and mobility are 2 different factors.
Yes, their high healing over time and their mobility make stamina sorcerer very hard to take down and even impossible by magicka builds when they use ball of lightning.

But these are not the same according to the graph. When talking about pure tankiness, Templar is significantly tankier than sorcerer, which the graphs do not show as such. According to it, templar has above average tankiness while Sorcerer (magicka) has top level tankiness? I think everyone who has stepped into pvp recently can attest that this is not true. Templar is not just averagely tanky.

If your fight a templar which doesn't have access to breath of life they are then not as tanky as you think or if you're using defile they drop alot faster. As such, sets like affliction work wonderful against them but I do agree, they are tanky in their own way mainly due to block. 10 is average and templar is 16/20 btw showing they're above average but when they're not in their rune and are blocking, they can drop pretty fast from my experience but I do see your point

As for magicka sorcerer, you can literally stack 2 8k-11k shields and still hit 80% mitigation allowing you to take an absolute beating.

Please allow me a question regarding this. I have seen a video of yours where you had a Battleground Sorcerer build and spoke of 80% damage mitigation+armor. But where does this come from? You have 8% from temporal guard and maybe 10% from the swift set.

I thought you meant those %s from ironclad etc. But it was no cp, so. And then again, everyone has these CP. I just don't understand where people see these mitigation %s

I want 80% mitigation on my Sorcerer. Please tell me how, for I will be immortal. Sadly I only have 8% from temporal guard and my 20k armor which gets melted close to 0 anyway.

The build editor is useful to see it as it has the formula built in but in short, in pvp you need to factor in battle spirit, resistances, cp, %damage reduction buffs and then any damage dealt reductions the target has like minor maim. It's easier to use the editor to see it - the reduction we have is due to good armour, % reduction sets/skills and cp as well as being in pvp. If we had minor main on our target then we'd be tankier.

Most pvp builds in cp hit 74-77% with some going over 80%. In the no cp the average is around 67%-72% depending on sets and stuff. My video on how to use the editor has the build linked so worth look

Tolino

@Unified_Gaming
It would be good to give a description of each area. And if you already take mobility as a factor. Why include mobility at defense too?

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Most pvp builds in cp hit 74-77% with some going over 80%. In the no cp the average is around 67%-72% depending on sets and stuff. My video on how to use the editor has the build linked so worth look

Most PvP builds in Cp are over 80%! Magsorc whit 2x Resistance Monsterset + minor Protection is already at 80% (26700 Armor) Any heavy Build whit Bloodspwan has armor.

Dracane

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

As for stamina sorcerer - dark deal is like 8k hp and allows you to reset the fight. You then have really high passive healing through crit surge and as you have amplitude to aid your damage, you can afford to use more health regen. Therefore, they have high self healing and defence wise, they have armour buffs like all classes but defense on a stamsorc gets heavily aided by passive healing and more importantly movement. As for minor protection, everyone is slotting temporal guard back bar and so have access to it.

Darkdeal is 4k Hp whit the Battelspirit! And it doesn't allow you to reset the fight. The mobility allows to reset the fight!
You say it yourself: Stamsorc defence comes mostly from mobility!

Indeed. Dark Deal is 4k health only and according to the graphs, defense and mobility are 2 different factors.
Yes, their high healing over time and their mobility make stamina sorcerer very hard to take down and even impossible by magicka builds when they use ball of lightning.

But these are not the same according to the graph. When talking about pure tankiness, Templar is significantly tankier than sorcerer, which the graphs do not show as such. According to it, templar has above average tankiness while Sorcerer (magicka) has top level tankiness? I think everyone who has stepped into pvp recently can attest that this is not true. Templar is not just averagely tanky.

If your fight a templar which doesn't have access to breath of life they are then not as tanky as you think or if you're using defile they drop alot faster. As such, sets like affliction work wonderful against them but I do agree, they are tanky in their own way mainly due to block. 10 is average and templar is 16/20 btw showing they're above average but when they're not in their rune and are blocking, they can drop pretty fast from my experience but I do see your point

As for magicka sorcerer, you can literally stack 2 8k-11k shields and still hit 80% mitigation allowing you to take an absolute beating.

Please allow me a question regarding this. I have seen a video of yours where you had a Battleground Sorcerer build and spoke of 80% damage mitigation+armor. But where does this come from? You have 8% from temporal guard and maybe 10% from the swift set.

I thought you meant those %s from ironclad etc. But it was no cp, so. And then again, everyone has these CP. I just don't understand where people see these mitigation %s

I want 80% mitigation on my Sorcerer. Please tell me how, for I will be immortal. Sadly I only have 8% from temporal guard and my 20k armor which gets melted close to 0 anyway.

The build editor is useful to see it as it has the formula built in but in short, in pvp you need to factor in battle spirit, resistances, cp, %damage reduction buffs and then any damage dealt reductions the target has like minor maim. It's easier to use the editor to see it - the reduction we have is due to good armour, % reduction sets/skills and cp as well as being in pvp. If we had minor main on our target then we'd be tankier.

Most pvp builds in cp hit 74-77% with some going over 80%. In the no cp the average is around 67%-72% depending on sets and stuff. My video on how to use the editor has the build linked so worth look

But that means everyone can have this. The fact that Battle spirit is even considered for this formula, I did not expect.

Dracane

Tolino wrote: »

@Unified_Gaming
It would be good to give a description of each area. And if you already take mobility as a factor. Why include mobility at defense too?

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Most pvp builds in cp hit 74-77% with some going over 80%. In the no cp the average is around 67%-72% depending on sets and stuff. My video on how to use the editor has the build linked so worth look

Most PvP builds in Cp are over 80%! Magsorc whit 2x Resistance Monsterset + minor Protection is already at 80% (26700 Armor) Any heavy Build whit Bloodspwan has armor.

Because it's folly. Adding 20% resistance from armor to that 50% battle spirit does not amount to 70% damage reduction. Because these 20% are taken from that which is left after battle spirit.

All our tooltips are reduced by 50% in pvp, so that is nothing I would call damage reduction to begin with. After penetration, a Sorcerer maybe has like 18% actual damage reduction in pvp with minor protection. Likely even less.

Tolino

Dracane wrote: »

Because it's folly. Adding 20% resistance from armor to that 50% battle spirit does not amount to 70% damage reduction. Because these 20% are taken from that which is left after battle spirit.

All our tooltips are reduced by 50% in pvp, so that is nothing I would call damage reduction to begin with. After penetration, a Sorcerer maybe has like 18% actual damage reduction in pvp with minor protection. Likely even less.

He is talking about the UESP-Build-editor. Even whitout the 50% Battespirit you have much more than 18%.
whit 20k Armor = 30% reduction
Minor Protection: 8%
Hardy/Elemental defender(43): mostly 10%
Ironclad(56): 20%
0.7x0.92x0.9x0.8=0.46 => 54% dmg reduction
whit Battelspirit 0.46x0.5 =>77% dmg reduction
And that's all things that every class have access to. Whit rather low Armor...
And everyone is wondering why we have a tank meta....

Tommy_The_Gun

So:
- Stamina Nightblade - worst stamina class overall.
- Magicka Nightblade - worst magicka class overall.

It is no nice to have this shown on graph... (not that I am happy about the state of the class, but maybe some ppl will see it and understand why there are so many "buff nb" threads recently).

btw. Nice video ! GJ

MashmalloMan

Class Identity: the lowest of all Graphs.

Accurate

Actually pretty good assestments, but I disagree on Defence here.

Mobility and Self Healing IS Stam Sorc's Defence. Defence should be more about access to Mitigation or Debuffing Damage received, to which Stam Templars and Mag DK definitely have more of yet appear lower/same as Stam Sorc. There is 0 Defence passives or unique debuffs/buffs available to Stam Sorc so I don't understand this aspect of the Graph.

Is it because of BoL? It's indeed strong towards projectiles, but you're then giving up Streak for it. It's not like it's a passive or the clear morph choice for every scenario. I don't think that earns them 7.5/10 for Defence.

Minor Protection on both bars for 100% uptime is much better than only having it available on your back bar as an example. This helps make Templar/Warden's offensive toolkit stronger because they have it up 100% of the time on front bar, they're also able to have access to 2 ultimates instead of 1 allowing for a better Defensive "Oh ***" button than the buggy mess that is Undo. I wouldn't say since every class has access to minor protection via undo, that it negates those classes pro's.

lucky_Sage

magdk charts I agree with completely great at dueling. ok in bg's and small groups and crap at the rest.
when dueling ability shouldn't be looked at in balance.

Dracane

Tolino wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Because it's folly. Adding 20% resistance from armor to that 50% battle spirit does not amount to 70% damage reduction. Because these 20% are taken from that which is left after battle spirit.

All our tooltips are reduced by 50% in pvp, so that is nothing I would call damage reduction to begin with. After penetration, a Sorcerer maybe has like 18% actual damage reduction in pvp with minor protection. Likely even less.

He is talking about the UESP-Build-editor. Even whitout the 50% Battespirit you have much more than 18%.
whit 20k Armor = 30% reduction
Minor Protection: 8%
Hardy/Elemental defender(43): mostly 10%
Ironclad(56): 20%
0.7x0.92x0.9x0.8=0.46 => 54% dmg reduction
whit Battelspirit 0.46x0.5 =>77% dmg reduction
And that's all things that every class have access to. Whit rather low Armor...
And everyone is wondering why we have a tank meta....

Armor is not real damage reduction. I mean, everyone has 10k-17k armor penetration. So 20k armor is almost nothing after that.

I agree though. It is incredibly easy to be super tanky. Defense is also cheaper to maintain than offense. So yea, being defensive is way too easy in pvp. Particularly because damage scales horribly in pvp. All weapon/spell damage you gain is first cut in half by battlespirit and then greatly diminished by enemy resistances.

Means that even with a heavy investment into damage, barely anything gets through. So it is preferable to play tanky, as building for damage does almost nothing except for essentially lowering your damage for you are vulnerable and squishy and barely have time to attack.

Iskiab

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Because it's folly. Adding 20% resistance from armor to that 50% battle spirit does not amount to 70% damage reduction. Because these 20% are taken from that which is left after battle spirit.

All our tooltips are reduced by 50% in pvp, so that is nothing I would call damage reduction to begin with. After penetration, a Sorcerer maybe has like 18% actual damage reduction in pvp with minor protection. Likely even less.

He is talking about the UESP-Build-editor. Even whitout the 50% Battespirit you have much more than 18%.
whit 20k Armor = 30% reduction
Minor Protection: 8%
Hardy/Elemental defender(43): mostly 10%
Ironclad(56): 20%
0.7x0.92x0.9x0.8=0.46 => 54% dmg reduction
whit Battelspirit 0.46x0.5 =>77% dmg reduction
And that's all things that every class have access to. Whit rather low Armor...
And everyone is wondering why we have a tank meta....

Armor is not real damage reduction. I mean, everyone has 10k-17k armor penetration. So 20k armor is almost nothing after that.

I agree though. It is incredibly easy to be super tanky. Defense is also cheaper to maintain than offense. So yea, being defensive is way too easy in pvp. Particularly because damage scales horribly in pvp. All weapon/spell damage you gain is first cut in half by battlespirit and then greatly diminished by enemy resistances.

Means that even with a heavy investment into damage, barely anything gets through. So it is preferable to play tanky, as building for damage does almost nothing except for essentially lowering your damage for you are vulnerable and squishy and barely have time to attack.

Sort of. Most defense is from self healing so if you’re too tanky you’ll never get through someone’s hots. Being really tanky is moreso a small scale thing I think; you can be tanky because a group Ult dump by multiple people will still be able to kill someone.

I don’t mean go stamblade divines with 18k health garbage, I just mean offense vs defense is a balancing act. More max stats also means better self healing so sacrificing too much for defense doesn’t work too well imo.

pieratsos

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

As for stamina sorcerer - dark deal is like 8k hp and allows you to reset the fight. You then have really high passive healing through crit surge and as you have amplitude to aid your damage, you can afford to use more health regen. Therefore, they have high self healing and defence wise, they have armour buffs like all classes but defense on a stamsorc gets heavily aided by passive healing and more importantly movement. As for minor protection, everyone is slotting temporal guard back bar and so have access to it.

Darkdeal is 4k Hp whit the Battelspirit! And it doesn't allow you to reset the fight. The mobility allows to reset the fight!
You say it yourself: Stamsorc defence comes mostly from mobility!

Indeed. Dark Deal is 4k health only and according to the graphs, defense and mobility are 2 different factors.
Yes, their high healing over time and their mobility make stamina sorcerer very hard to take down and even impossible by magicka builds when they use ball of lightning.

But these are not the same according to the graph. When talking about pure tankiness, Templar is significantly tankier than sorcerer, which the graphs do not show as such. According to it, templar has above average tankiness while Sorcerer (magicka) has top level tankiness? I think everyone who has stepped into pvp recently can attest that this is not true. Templar is not just averagely tanky.

If your fight a templar which doesn't have access to breath of life they are then not as tanky as you think or if you're using defile they drop alot faster. As such, sets like affliction work wonderful against them but I do agree, they are tanky in their own way mainly due to block. 10 is average and templar is 16/20 btw showing they're above average but when they're not in their rune and are blocking, they can drop pretty fast from my experience but I do see your point

As for magicka sorcerer, you can literally stack 2 8k-11k shields and still hit 80% mitigation allowing you to take an absolute beating.

Please allow me a question regarding this. I have seen a video of yours where you had a Battleground Sorcerer build and spoke of 80% damage mitigation+armor. But where does this come from? You have 8% from temporal guard and maybe 10% from the swift set.

I thought you meant those %s from ironclad etc. But it was no cp, so. And then again, everyone has these CP. I just don't understand where people see these mitigation %s

I want 80% mitigation on my Sorcerer. Please tell me how, for I will be immortal. Sadly I only have 8% from temporal guard and my 20k armor which gets melted close to 0 anyway.

The build editor is useful to see it as it has the formula built in but in short, in pvp you need to factor in battle spirit, resistances, cp, %damage reduction buffs and then any damage dealt reductions the target has like minor maim. It's easier to use the editor to see it - the reduction we have is due to good armour, % reduction sets/skills and cp as well as being in pvp. If we had minor main on our target then we'd be tankier.

Most pvp builds in cp hit 74-77% with some going over 80%. In the no cp the average is around 67%-72% depending on sets and stuff. My video on how to use the editor has the build linked so worth look

And when u do take account all that all classes have similar ridiculous dmg reduction right?

Unified_Gaming

pieratsos wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

As for stamina sorcerer - dark deal is like 8k hp and allows you to reset the fight. You then have really high passive healing through crit surge and as you have amplitude to aid your damage, you can afford to use more health regen. Therefore, they have high self healing and defence wise, they have armour buffs like all classes but defense on a stamsorc gets heavily aided by passive healing and more importantly movement. As for minor protection, everyone is slotting temporal guard back bar and so have access to it.

Darkdeal is 4k Hp whit the Battelspirit! And it doesn't allow you to reset the fight. The mobility allows to reset the fight!
You say it yourself: Stamsorc defence comes mostly from mobility!

Indeed. Dark Deal is 4k health only and according to the graphs, defense and mobility are 2 different factors.
Yes, their high healing over time and their mobility make stamina sorcerer very hard to take down and even impossible by magicka builds when they use ball of lightning.

But these are not the same according to the graph. When talking about pure tankiness, Templar is significantly tankier than sorcerer, which the graphs do not show as such. According to it, templar has above average tankiness while Sorcerer (magicka) has top level tankiness? I think everyone who has stepped into pvp recently can attest that this is not true. Templar is not just averagely tanky.

If your fight a templar which doesn't have access to breath of life they are then not as tanky as you think or if you're using defile they drop alot faster. As such, sets like affliction work wonderful against them but I do agree, they are tanky in their own way mainly due to block. 10 is average and templar is 16/20 btw showing they're above average but when they're not in their rune and are blocking, they can drop pretty fast from my experience but I do see your point

As for magicka sorcerer, you can literally stack 2 8k-11k shields and still hit 80% mitigation allowing you to take an absolute beating.

Please allow me a question regarding this. I have seen a video of yours where you had a Battleground Sorcerer build and spoke of 80% damage mitigation+armor. But where does this come from? You have 8% from temporal guard and maybe 10% from the swift set.

I thought you meant those %s from ironclad etc. But it was no cp, so. And then again, everyone has these CP. I just don't understand where people see these mitigation %s

I want 80% mitigation on my Sorcerer. Please tell me how, for I will be immortal. Sadly I only have 8% from temporal guard and my 20k armor which gets melted close to 0 anyway.

The build editor is useful to see it as it has the formula built in but in short, in pvp you need to factor in battle spirit, resistances, cp, %damage reduction buffs and then any damage dealt reductions the target has like minor maim. It's easier to use the editor to see it - the reduction we have is due to good armour, % reduction sets/skills and cp as well as being in pvp. If we had minor main on our target then we'd be tankier.

Most pvp builds in cp hit 74-77% with some going over 80%. In the no cp the average is around 67%-72% depending on sets and stuff. My video on how to use the editor has the build linked so worth look

And when u do take account all that all classes have similar ridiculous dmg reduction right?

Yes - some classes are more bulkier than others like dragonkights and necromancer because of passives or extra effects like 10% damage reduction. As with these things, all classes fall within the range and some we be at varying ends of it.

Unified_Gaming

Iskiab wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Because it's folly. Adding 20% resistance from armor to that 50% battle spirit does not amount to 70% damage reduction. Because these 20% are taken from that which is left after battle spirit.

All our tooltips are reduced by 50% in pvp, so that is nothing I would call damage reduction to begin with. After penetration, a Sorcerer maybe has like 18% actual damage reduction in pvp with minor protection. Likely even less.

He is talking about the UESP-Build-editor. Even whitout the 50% Battespirit you have much more than 18%.
whit 20k Armor = 30% reduction
Minor Protection: 8%
Hardy/Elemental defender(43): mostly 10%
Ironclad(56): 20%
0.7x0.92x0.9x0.8=0.46 => 54% dmg reduction
whit Battelspirit 0.46x0.5 =>77% dmg reduction
And that's all things that every class have access to. Whit rather low Armor...
And everyone is wondering why we have a tank meta....

Armor is not real damage reduction. I mean, everyone has 10k-17k armor penetration. So 20k armor is almost nothing after that.

I agree though. It is incredibly easy to be super tanky. Defense is also cheaper to maintain than offense. So yea, being defensive is way too easy in pvp. Particularly because damage scales horribly in pvp. All weapon/spell damage you gain is first cut in half by battlespirit and then greatly diminished by enemy resistances.

Means that even with a heavy investment into damage, barely anything gets through. So it is preferable to play tanky, as building for damage does almost nothing except for essentially lowering your damage for you are vulnerable and squishy and barely have time to attack.

Sort of. Most defense is from self healing so if you’re too tanky you’ll never get through someone’s hots. Being really tanky is moreso a small scale thing I think; you can be tanky because a group Ult dump by multiple people will still be able to kill someone.

I don’t mean go stamblade divines with 18k health garbage, I just mean offense vs defense is a balancing act. More max stats also means better self healing so sacrificing too much for defense doesn’t work too well imo.

The thing people never talk about is that there becomes a point where stacking more damage proves pointless.

Iskiab

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Because it's folly. Adding 20% resistance from armor to that 50% battle spirit does not amount to 70% damage reduction. Because these 20% are taken from that which is left after battle spirit.

All our tooltips are reduced by 50% in pvp, so that is nothing I would call damage reduction to begin with. After penetration, a Sorcerer maybe has like 18% actual damage reduction in pvp with minor protection. Likely even less.

He is talking about the UESP-Build-editor. Even whitout the 50% Battespirit you have much more than 18%.
whit 20k Armor = 30% reduction
Minor Protection: 8%
Hardy/Elemental defender(43): mostly 10%
Ironclad(56): 20%
0.7x0.92x0.9x0.8=0.46 => 54% dmg reduction
whit Battelspirit 0.46x0.5 =>77% dmg reduction
And that's all things that every class have access to. Whit rather low Armor...
And everyone is wondering why we have a tank meta....

Armor is not real damage reduction. I mean, everyone has 10k-17k armor penetration. So 20k armor is almost nothing after that.

I agree though. It is incredibly easy to be super tanky. Defense is also cheaper to maintain than offense. So yea, being defensive is way too easy in pvp. Particularly because damage scales horribly in pvp. All weapon/spell damage you gain is first cut in half by battlespirit and then greatly diminished by enemy resistances.

Means that even with a heavy investment into damage, barely anything gets through. So it is preferable to play tanky, as building for damage does almost nothing except for essentially lowering your damage for you are vulnerable and squishy and barely have time to attack.

Sort of. Most defense is from self healing so if you’re too tanky you’ll never get through someone’s hots. Being really tanky is moreso a small scale thing I think; you can be tanky because a group Ult dump by multiple people will still be able to kill someone.

I don’t mean go stamblade divines with 18k health garbage, I just mean offense vs defense is a balancing act. More max stats also means better self healing so sacrificing too much for defense doesn’t work too well imo.

The thing people never talk about is that there becomes a point where stacking more damage proves pointless.

Can you elaborate? Do you mean penentration type builds specifically or max stat builds?

Unified_Gaming

Iskiab wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Because it's folly. Adding 20% resistance from armor to that 50% battle spirit does not amount to 70% damage reduction. Because these 20% are taken from that which is left after battle spirit.

All our tooltips are reduced by 50% in pvp, so that is nothing I would call damage reduction to begin with. After penetration, a Sorcerer maybe has like 18% actual damage reduction in pvp with minor protection. Likely even less.

He is talking about the UESP-Build-editor. Even whitout the 50% Battespirit you have much more than 18%.
whit 20k Armor = 30% reduction
Minor Protection: 8%
Hardy/Elemental defender(43): mostly 10%
Ironclad(56): 20%
0.7x0.92x0.9x0.8=0.46 => 54% dmg reduction
whit Battelspirit 0.46x0.5 =>77% dmg reduction
And that's all things that every class have access to. Whit rather low Armor...
And everyone is wondering why we have a tank meta....

Armor is not real damage reduction. I mean, everyone has 10k-17k armor penetration. So 20k armor is almost nothing after that.

I agree though. It is incredibly easy to be super tanky. Defense is also cheaper to maintain than offense. So yea, being defensive is way too easy in pvp. Particularly because damage scales horribly in pvp. All weapon/spell damage you gain is first cut in half by battlespirit and then greatly diminished by enemy resistances.

Means that even with a heavy investment into damage, barely anything gets through. So it is preferable to play tanky, as building for damage does almost nothing except for essentially lowering your damage for you are vulnerable and squishy and barely have time to attack.

Sort of. Most defense is from self healing so if you’re too tanky you’ll never get through someone’s hots. Being really tanky is moreso a small scale thing I think; you can be tanky because a group Ult dump by multiple people will still be able to kill someone.

I don’t mean go stamblade divines with 18k health garbage, I just mean offense vs defense is a balancing act. More max stats also means better self healing so sacrificing too much for defense doesn’t work too well imo.

The thing people never talk about is that there becomes a point where stacking more damage proves pointless.

Can you elaborate? Do you mean penentration type builds specifically or max stat builds?

Basically people seem to think that stacking damage is the way and it isn't. For example, a mate wanted to use newmoon + fury on a stamplar with bloodspawn. He made it and said he was hitting really hard but had sustain issues. I told him to drop fury for bone pirate and he called me crazy but once he did he noticed that for 50-60% of the fight his damage was higher and even when fury overtook due to 12 stacks + then did he get more damage. The total difference on dizzy swing between fury and bone pirate on the build was 1200 tool tip approx which after reductions etc is about 400 more damage a hit. He concluded that bone pirate worked better as it gave him sustain and equitable damage of which he killed people in the same time frame.

This is also true for magicka too on the whole, my magicka warden build has an 18k deeper fissure tool tip buffed before continous with necro + alfique and around 20k armour with 1500 regen. On my resistor build, it has a deep fissure tool tip of 16.8k buffed without continuous but has 1800 regen and 28k armour. So in an actual fight, having an extra 1200-1700 on a tool tip instead of 8k more armour and 300 more regen isn't worth it because at the end of the day, that extra 400 after battle spirit will not get the difference between getting a kill or not.

I found that the game is designed to allow you to run 1 of each set and be highly effective - damage, sustain and defence and then use glyphs and mundus stone to refine it, building around racial bonuses.

My stamina necromancer is an example of this, new moon + bone pirate with bloodspawn and I still have a blast bones tool top of over 20k. As such, my point is that stacking into damage although helpful early on gets heavily diminished and so I would take slightly less damage for more defence and regen.

Make sense?

Reverb

Actual pvp rankings by build:

1) Desyncs
2) Lag
3) Loadscreens
4) Players

Unified_Gaming

Reverb wrote: »

Actual pvp rankings by build:

1) Desyncs
2) Lag
3) Loadscreens
4) Players

What about crashes??