"High APM" is a myth

MentalxHammer

JamieAubrey wrote: »

This is a fancy dev's way of saying "People are using Macro's"

Negative ghost rider. Macros unnecessary for this simple command.

TheFM

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

I hate light attack after every ability, sometime you cna not particpate in trials even have best gear, CP etc.

Because you have to light attack faster after every skill, new changes are better.

its 2 button presses per second. Thats not fast by any measure.

ecru

TheFM wrote: »

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

I hate light attack after every ability, sometime you cna not particpate in trials even have best gear, CP etc.

Because you have to light attack faster after every skill, new changes are better.

its 2 button presses per second. Thats not fast by any measure.

This, it isn't fast at all, especially considering how simple rotations are in ESO. The people complaining that ESO combat is too hard would be even worse off in more traditional MMOs with much more complex rotations than what we have in ESO. ESO is very simple with no cooldowns besides ults, you just use your spammable and refresh dots for the most part, or use a proc once in awhile, and that's it. It's extremely forgiving and for good players the biggest obstacle in front of achieving 99.9% of potential dps is lag, not screwing up their rotation. In other MMOs, it's the opposite--you need an absolutely perfect rotation to maximize dps (lined up with raid/group cooldowns for good group dps too) and one or two mistakes can ruin a parse. ESO isn't like that, and players who aren't great at the game, or games in general, should be thankful for that.

Honestly I suspect a lot of the people who have problems with weaving have never played another MMO. In Rift dps gaps were as wide as the grand canyon because of how perfect rotations would need to be on top of them already being extremely complicated, and WoW used to be the same, but I can't speak on how it is now since I haven't touched it in years. "Average" players have it realllllllly good in ESO.

Iskiab

ecru wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

I hate light attack after every ability, sometime you cna not particpate in trials even have best gear, CP etc.

Because you have to light attack faster after every skill, new changes are better.

its 2 button presses per second. Thats not fast by any measure.

This, it isn't fast at all, especially considering how simple rotations are in ESO. The people complaining that ESO combat is too hard would be even worse off in more traditional MMOs with much more complex rotations than what we have in ESO. ESO is very simple with no cooldowns besides ults, you just use your spammable and refresh dots for the most part, or use a proc once in awhile, and that's it. It's extremely forgiving and for good players the biggest obstacle in front of achieving 99.9% of potential dps is lag, not screwing up their rotation. In other MMOs, it's the opposite--you need an absolutely perfect rotation to maximize dps (lined up with raid/group cooldowns for good group dps too) and one or two mistakes can ruin a parse. ESO isn't like that, and players who aren't great at the game, or games in general, should be thankful for that.

Honestly I suspect a lot of the people who have problems with weaving have never played another MMO. In Rift dps gaps were as wide as the grand canyon because of how perfect rotations would need to be on top of them already being extremely complicated, and WoW used to be the same, but I can't speak on how it is now since I haven't touched it in years. "Average" players have it realllllllly good in ESO.

I played Rift and world of wankers. The rotations weren’t that bad, it was pretty easy. The only hard part was figuring out the best spec and stat weights. I think it was wildly easier to achieve high dps in those games just because there was an ability queue.

ESO is different in that you need to get the timing down for the GCD plus adjust for lag. The other part that makes it more difficult is nothing is explained or intuitive. Even in these threads you can see people are doing it wrong and talk about skill then LA and not the other way around.

The other part that’s a bit messed up is skills don’t fire until the animation is over. All the recent changes to block and skills are likely for pvp, so if you see the animation you have the opportunity to block, so animation canceling is being discouraged but it’s creating more problems then it’s fixing.

Now things like rock humping is worse than ever, speed lets you dodge out of melee range, skills don’t fire at all. It’d probably be best at this point to get rid of the reasons animation cancelling was effective, i.e. make it so you press the button and something happens immediately. Every ability essentially being a cast time attack isn’t working well.

ecru

Iskiab wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

I hate light attack after every ability, sometime you cna not particpate in trials even have best gear, CP etc.

Because you have to light attack faster after every skill, new changes are better.

its 2 button presses per second. Thats not fast by any measure.

This, it isn't fast at all, especially considering how simple rotations are in ESO. The people complaining that ESO combat is too hard would be even worse off in more traditional MMOs with much more complex rotations than what we have in ESO. ESO is very simple with no cooldowns besides ults, you just use your spammable and refresh dots for the most part, or use a proc once in awhile, and that's it. It's extremely forgiving and for good players the biggest obstacle in front of achieving 99.9% of potential dps is lag, not screwing up their rotation. In other MMOs, it's the opposite--you need an absolutely perfect rotation to maximize dps (lined up with raid/group cooldowns for good group dps too) and one or two mistakes can ruin a parse. ESO isn't like that, and players who aren't great at the game, or games in general, should be thankful for that.

Honestly I suspect a lot of the people who have problems with weaving have never played another MMO. In Rift dps gaps were as wide as the grand canyon because of how perfect rotations would need to be on top of them already being extremely complicated, and WoW used to be the same, but I can't speak on how it is now since I haven't touched it in years. "Average" players have it realllllllly good in ESO.

I played Rift and world of wankers. The rotations weren’t that bad, it was pretty easy. The only hard part was figuring out the best spec and stat weights. I think it was wildly easier to achieve high dps in those games just because there was an ability queue.

ESO is different in that you need to get the timing down for the GCD plus adjust for lag. The other part that makes it more difficult is nothing is explained or intuitive. Even in these threads you can see people are doing it wrong and talk about skill then LA and not the other way around.

The other part that’s a bit messed up is skills don’t fire until the animation is over. All the recent changes to block and skills are likely for pvp, so if you see the animation you have the opportunity to block, so animation canceling is being discouraged but it’s creating more problems then it’s fixing.

Now things like rock humping is worse than ever, speed lets you dodge out of melee range, skills don’t fire at all. It’d probably be best at this point to get rid of the reasons animation cancelling was effective, i.e. make it so you press the button and something happens immediately. Every ability essentially being a cast time attack isn’t working well.

lol

Here are some details from my old macros from Rift

CD block macro. Spam it when DF/ROTN come up, MB is up, and Jolt proc is up. Use it for two gcd's and then follow with main phys macro to use PS (PS needs to be off cd for 3rd gcd of DF for this to work), that way DF is MB/Jolt/PS.

Second Phys macro, use this to rotate phys/nonphys while holding off on PS and MB so they're both up for your cd block, only ever used a handful of gcd's before DF/ROTN. Need to be careful using this too early so FW doesn't drop off from not using PS to refresh it before your cd block.

and some old bar setups just for funzies

Compared to ESO which is refresh dots and use spammable, there is quite a bit of difference here. I'll say it again, ESO players have it very, very easy.

Iskiab

ecru wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

I hate light attack after every ability, sometime you cna not particpate in trials even have best gear, CP etc.

Because you have to light attack faster after every skill, new changes are better.

its 2 button presses per second. Thats not fast by any measure.

This, it isn't fast at all, especially considering how simple rotations are in ESO. The people complaining that ESO combat is too hard would be even worse off in more traditional MMOs with much more complex rotations than what we have in ESO. ESO is very simple with no cooldowns besides ults, you just use your spammable and refresh dots for the most part, or use a proc once in awhile, and that's it. It's extremely forgiving and for good players the biggest obstacle in front of achieving 99.9% of potential dps is lag, not screwing up their rotation. In other MMOs, it's the opposite--you need an absolutely perfect rotation to maximize dps (lined up with raid/group cooldowns for good group dps too) and one or two mistakes can ruin a parse. ESO isn't like that, and players who aren't great at the game, or games in general, should be thankful for that.

Honestly I suspect a lot of the people who have problems with weaving have never played another MMO. In Rift dps gaps were as wide as the grand canyon because of how perfect rotations would need to be on top of them already being extremely complicated, and WoW used to be the same, but I can't speak on how it is now since I haven't touched it in years. "Average" players have it realllllllly good in ESO.

I played Rift and world of wankers. The rotations weren’t that bad, it was pretty easy. The only hard part was figuring out the best spec and stat weights. I think it was wildly easier to achieve high dps in those games just because there was an ability queue.

ESO is different in that you need to get the timing down for the GCD plus adjust for lag. The other part that makes it more difficult is nothing is explained or intuitive. Even in these threads you can see people are doing it wrong and talk about skill then LA and not the other way around.

The other part that’s a bit messed up is skills don’t fire until the animation is over. All the recent changes to block and skills are likely for pvp, so if you see the animation you have the opportunity to block, so animation canceling is being discouraged but it’s creating more problems then it’s fixing.

Now things like rock humping is worse than ever, speed lets you dodge out of melee range, skills don’t fire at all. It’d probably be best at this point to get rid of the reasons animation cancelling was effective, i.e. make it so you press the button and something happens immediately. Every ability essentially being a cast time attack isn’t working well.

lol

Here are some details from my old macros from Rift

CD block macro. Spam it when DF/ROTN come up, MB is up, and Jolt proc is up. Use it for two gcd's and then follow with main phys macro to use PS (PS needs to be off cd for 3rd gcd of DF for this to work), that way DF is MB/Jolt/PS.

Second Phys macro, use this to rotate phys/nonphys while holding off on PS and MB so they're both up for your cd block, only ever used a handful of gcd's before DF/ROTN. Need to be careful using this too early so FW doesn't drop off from not using PS to refresh it before your cd block.

and some old bar setups just for funzies

Compared to ESO which is refresh dots and use spammable, there is quite a bit of difference here. I'll say it again, ESO players have it very, very easy.

I was the highest parsing rogue in that game for quite some time. I was also in this thing (that was short lived) where they had players test out some changes they were going to make to the game ahead of time... probably because I’m good at finding broken things, I found that sabdancer build though another dude fine tuned it.

I liked the PvE in that game and switched from starting it as PvP because it was all mechanics based; as in movement, stacking movement, jumping around on mounds, avoiding waves, etc... It wasn’t so much getting the timing down on the skill GCD and then LA - skill - bash while staying stacked. Macros were easy enough to do, just look at GCDs and order what can be ordered if you can. It took more time to fine tune builds, but that game was mainly raid logging or spending time on a dummy trying to break *** for more dps.

StShoot

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

ESO has Global cooldowns on all skills and light attacks.
You can do 1 skill a second, or 28 light attacks over 20 seconds.

Direction inputs are not APM, Why you ask? because a trials junkie wired on monster energy with a nervous tick who literally can no longer observe "Hold still" mechanics because they can't stop spamming "WASDWASDWASDWASDWASDWASDWASD" Is not helping them attack, nor is it essentially keeping them alive any more than holding D for 3 seconds then A for 4 seconds, they are both moving out of "Red" as adequately as one another.

So now we know APM is limited to roughly 12 inputs over 10 seconds can we drop the desire to make the players think they are Starcraft grand champions, or inflating peoples egos just because they spam direction inputs.

At the end of the day players care about DPS not APM, we lose DPS when skills like "Liquid lightning" spawn their target ring on the floor and then.... DON'T fire the skill, or you engage a group of mobs and drop "Wall of elements" just to find your character doing the Macarena or convulsing and unable to execute %70 of the skills on your bar or a light attack.

If the servers or client is now unable to keep up with the demand the current high population in the game then maybe it is time to completely reform combat, Remove "Weaving" all together or make all high damage come from item sets and not skills (relequen is already this) or make dots last longer or remove light attacks and ramp up skill damage to compensate, but the current system has reached it's capacity and changing "Why" people are Light attack weaving is not going to fix any of the other combat problems.

I miss how the game felt a few years ago when my skills worked promptly and smoothly, I live in hope that the improvement roadmap solves the current issues.

There isnt even a way to measure your apm in eso ... no one knows how walking etc is calculated...

I totaly agree with you zos heard that apm phrase in other game and though COOOOOOOOOOOL lets ask ower playerbase how many apm they have.
I mean the base game doesnt even have a tool that shows you your skills per minute

Skjaldbjorn

StShoot wrote: »

There isnt even a way to measure your apm in eso ... no one knows how walking etc is calculated...

I totaly agree with you zos heard that apm phrase in other game and though COOOOOOOOOOOL lets ask ower playerbase how many apm they have.
I mean the base game doesnt even have a tool that shows you your skills per minute

ESOlogs shows Casts Per Minute.