"High APM" is a myth

Lapin_Logic

ESO has Global cooldowns on all skills and light attacks.
You can do 1 skill a second, or 28 light attacks over 20 seconds.

Direction inputs are not APM, Why you ask? because a trials junkie wired on monster energy with a nervous tick who literally can no longer observe "Hold still" mechanics because they can't stop spamming "WASDWASDWASDWASDWASDWASDWASD" Is not helping them attack, nor is it essentially keeping them alive any more than holding D for 3 seconds then A for 4 seconds, they are both moving out of "Red" as adequately as one another.

So now we know APM is limited to roughly 12 inputs over 10 seconds can we drop the desire to make the players think they are Starcraft grand champions, or inflating peoples egos just because they spam direction inputs.

At the end of the day players care about DPS not APM, we lose DPS when skills like "Liquid lightning" spawn their target ring on the floor and then.... DON'T fire the skill, or you engage a group of mobs and drop "Wall of elements" just to find your character doing the Macarena or convulsing and unable to execute %70 of the skills on your bar or a light attack.

If the servers or client is now unable to keep up with the demand the current high population in the game then maybe it is time to completely reform combat, Remove "Weaving" all together or make all high damage come from item sets and not skills (relequen is already this) or make dots last longer or remove light attacks and ramp up skill damage to compensate, but the current system has reached it's capacity and changing "Why" people are Light attack weaving is not going to fix any of the other combat problems.

I miss how the game felt a few years ago when my skills worked promptly and smoothly, I live in hope that the improvement roadmap solves the current issues.

nublife01

edit: not even worth mentioning at this point.

JamieAubrey

This is a fancy dev's way of saying "People are using Macro's"

Banana

Do the actions I try to do but don't work count towards my apm

Lapin_Logic

Banana wrote: »

Do the actions I try to do but don't work count towards my apm

You: 150 APM

Your toon: 10 APM

Lapin_Logic

Banana wrote: »

Do the actions I try to do but don't work count towards my apm

Does drinking tea and scratching myself also count as APM?

FakeFox

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

So now we know APM is limited to roughly 12 inputs over 10 seconds

Uh, no? If you just count skills, light attacks and bar swaps you are already at around two per second.

Apart from that there are very good reasons why endgame players are constantly moving. Being already moving when something is happening is faster then reacting and starting to move and player centred mechanics always spawn with a delay, by moving precariously you use that delay to not be in the centre of an AOE when it spawns.

Lapin_Logic

FakeFox wrote: »

Uh, no? If you just count skills, light attacks and bar swaps you are already at around two per second.

Apart from that there are very good reasons why endgame players are constantly moving. Being already moving when something is happening is faster then reacting and starting to move and player centred mechanics always spawn with a delay, by moving precariously you use that delay to not be in the centre of an AOE when it spawns.

I was exaggerating with Roughly 12

I already said spamming directions = holding a direction in level effectiveness, I was not arguing against "being in motion" just that spamming directions does not magically make you a 350 APM Starcraft champion.

We all do a skill (if it currently fires) and a weave while moving and then bar swap, the devs should be talking about "Attacks per minute" not Actions per minute, Attacks = DPS, Moving, bar swaps, drinking potions and spawning Jubilee cake in front of the tank are just ancillary actions.

A Delve noob spamming Shield, Light attack, Shield, Light attack, WA(eat food)SDW(eat food)ASD(potion)WASD Light Attack. would qualify as a 350 APM player, but they wouldn't be any good and its not really 350 APM

FakeFox

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Uh, no? If you just count skills, light attacks and bar swaps you are already at around two per second.

Apart from that there are very good reasons why endgame players are constantly moving. Being already moving when something is happening is faster then reacting and starting to move and player centred mechanics always spawn with a delay, by moving precariously you use that delay to not be in the centre of an AOE when it spawns.

I was exaggerating with Roughly 12

I already said spamming directions = holding a direction in level effectiveness, I was not arguing against "being in motion" just that spamming directions does not magically make you a 350 APM Starcraft champion.

We all do a skill (if it currently fires) and a weave while moving and then bar swap, the devs should be talking about "Attacks per minute" not Actions per minute, Attacks = DPS, Moving, bar swaps, drinking potions and spawning Jubilee cake in front of the tank are just ancillary actions.

A Delve noob spamming Shield, Light attack, Shield, Light attack, WA(eat food)SDW(eat food)ASD(potion)WASD Light Attack. would qualify as a 350 APM player, but they wouldn't be any good and its not really 350 APM

I can actually somewhat agree with that, but you really weren't good at selling those points.

SidraWillowsky

Had they ever even mentioned APM before the PTS changes last week? I feel like it was literally not ever a thing until then and now that's all they talk about

Skjaldbjorn

JamieAubrey wrote: »

This is a fancy dev's way of saying "People are using Macro's"

No, we're really not lol

Drdeath20

On a test dummy ~90% of my skills, light attacks and bar swaps work as intended.

In a trial ~60% of my skills, light attacks and bar swaps work as intended.

With ultimates the disparity is much larger. There are times where i spend almost 10 seconds of combat spamming my fully loaded ultimate off and it either being unresponsive or it responded and then canceling itself out.

I did not want new content more than anything i wanted the old stuff to make sense.

Knowledge

An average high percentile player log in a veteran trial shows "casts per minute" at about 120 in ESO. In most other MMORPGs it's south of 30cpm/APM

This does not include WASD or movements.

Skjaldbjorn

Knowledge wrote: »

An average high percentile player log in a veteran trial shows "casts per minute" at about 120 in ESO. In most other MMORPGs it's south of 30cpm/APM

This does not include WASD or movements.

Let's dispel a few rumors real quick.

First and foremost, high APM =/ higher DPS, at least not inherently.

Here's a log from a run I was in a couple weeks ago. This is a pretty damn solid group with high DPS that consistently posts top-20 parses on ESOlogs. Here is the direct link to CPM for the Raptors boss;

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Bq2GP83QdfxpryCT#fight=5&type=casts

The first thing you can note there is that I am the lowest CPM in this run. I'm also the third highest DPS overall, and the #1 Mag Necro parse for that fight on esologs currently for overall DPS (not single target). I beat both other Magcros in the group, despite having a significantly lower CPM.

Furthermore, even on ESOlogs which does not record movement, their CPM list does record some...pretty silly things, which you can see by clicking on individual players. Things such as weapon swaps, synergy activation, break free, roll dodge, applying major sorcery apparently, all of these things are being recorded in the CPM block.

To touch on this, I have played EverQuest, World of Warcraft and Guild Wars 2 extensively. I played EQ for 7 1/2 years and WoW for 6 1/2 years. I have never macroed or botted. I am a pure, prideful player who puts value in working my ass off to improve. I had never played a Magcro in my life until about a month ago, and still only play it twice a week for two hours at a time.

Despite the combat style, whether it's EQ's ancient, archaic auto attacks with a handful of abilities, or WoW's auto attacks with a rigid, planned out rotation that never changes, or Guild Wars 2's more chaotic, spastic combat that puts the onus on individual players rather than group compositions, I have never struggled to find myself in the end-game. Ever. I had world first clears in WoW. I led a top-12k world guild. I have seen the end-game from the slower, methodical combat systems, and I have seen it in ESO.

First of all, there's no comparison on a CPM concept between ESO and a game like WoW. There just isn't. WoW skills have CDs outside of the global. That's problem one. I have no idea what MMOs you included in "most other MMORPGs", but most MMOs I have played have express cooldowns on the abilities themselves outside of the GCD. Furthermore, in "most other MMORPGs", skills regularly have cast times or channel durations, something ESO uses very sparingly, and even when they do, they generally line up with the GCD or at least close to so it reduces the "clunky" feel of long cast times other MMOs have.

Two, there is precious little correlation between high LA/sec and higher DPS in trials. In actuality, from my findings doing a damn fair bit of research into this on ESOlogs, LA damage isn't directly connected. It seems to be more about sustain, as I have brought up at least ten times since this patch his the PTS. The "gap" everyone is so worried about isn't LA damage, it's sustain. The proposed changes don't bridge that gap in any meaningful way.

Three, being a "high APM" player, even without movement being counted, is just not that hard. I have severe nerve damage in my right (mouse) hand. My hand tires out fairly quickly, I have to use my middle finger to left click, I can only use my side mouse buttons for simple things like weapon swaps and I struggle with pacing my clicks/LAs directly to my ability casts.

Yet, despite that, despite my physical limitation, despite playing MMOs that auto-attacked and didn't have to learn this skill, I sat in front of a dummy back in Morrowind and learned to properly HA weave cancelling the animation. It took me a lot of time. Hours upon hours. And then, when they switched everything in Summerset to LA weaving, I re-learned how to play classes, re-learned how to weave properly and put in the time.

You can be competitive without being a 130+ CPM player. You can clear high-end content and push scores without being a 130+ CPM player. But all those players have one thing in common - we worked our collective asses off to get better at the game. We invested the time, effort and energy to not coast by on garbage mechanics, and we should be rewarded for that investment.

Is this gap too wide? Yes, and I have expressed that repeatedly. I have no issue bridging the gap, but this is the wrong way to do it because it doesn't actually bridge anything. It hurts end-game players and won't improve lower-end players. It won't. At all. At least not in PVE, I have no idea what this does in PVP.

[Snip]. Most of the people saying it didn't even know what the hell that meant three weeks ago, but end-game players have looked at CPM long before this. We're aware there's a gap there. We're very open to bridging that, but not at the expense of our hard work. We shouldn't take a loogie to the face so some guy who logs on every Saturday for three hours can get Godslayer or get accused of botting/scripting/macroing simply because we actually took the time to get better.

Sorry not sorry.

[Edited for bait]

T3hasiangod

JamieAubrey wrote: »

This is a fancy dev's way of saying "People are using Macro's"

Except not.

TheFM

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

ESO has Global cooldowns on all skills and light attacks.
You can do 1 skill a second, or 28 light attacks over 20 seconds.

Direction inputs are not APM, Why you ask? because a trials junkie wired on monster energy with a nervous tick who literally can no longer observe "Hold still" mechanics because they can't stop spamming "WASDWASDWASDWASDWASDWASDWASD" Is not helping them attack, nor is it essentially keeping them alive any more than holding D for 3 seconds then A for 4 seconds, they are both moving out of "Red" as adequately as one another.

So now we know APM is limited to roughly 12 inputs over 10 seconds can we drop the desire to make the players think they are Starcraft grand champions, or inflating peoples egos just because they spam direction inputs.

At the end of the day players care about DPS not APM, we lose DPS when skills like "Liquid lightning" spawn their target ring on the floor and then.... DON'T fire the skill, or you engage a group of mobs and drop "Wall of elements" just to find your character doing the Macarena or convulsing and unable to execute %70 of the skills on your bar or a light attack.

If the servers or client is now unable to keep up with the demand the current high population in the game then maybe it is time to completely reform combat, Remove "Weaving" all together or make all high damage come from item sets and not skills (relequen is already this) or make dots last longer or remove light attacks and ramp up skill damage to compensate, but the current system has reached it's capacity and changing "Why" people are Light attack weaving is not going to fix any of the other combat problems.

I miss how the game felt a few years ago when my skills worked promptly and smoothly, I live in hope that the improvement roadmap solves the current issues.

So much this. If you actually look at the players fingers doing la weaving, it's incredibly slow.

TheFM

JamieAubrey wrote: »

This is a fancy dev's way of saying "People are using Macro's"

If you go to DC and say people are using macros, I suggest putting on a rain coat, the fan is going to be hit.

Cage_Lizardman

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

First and foremost, high APM =/ higher DPS, at least not inherently.

That log still shows you all have significantly higher CPM -and- DPS compared to the average player, including those capable of vet trials, regardless of any individual differences. That's the gap that matters. This is what I see in most logs, higher CPM generally means higher DPS.

When you say the difference is sustain, are you talking about the gap between a 130 and 100CPM player, or between a 100+ and a 75? I am not sure that the first gap is particularly relevant, and I'd doubt it has the same causes.

I'd also be interested in some hard data on exactly how to define the "gap", where it is and why.

Skjaldbjorn

Cage_Lizardman wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

First and foremost, high APM =/ higher DPS, at least not inherently.

That log still shows you all have significantly higher CPM -and- DPS compared to the average player, including those capable of vet trials, regardless of any individual differences. That's the gap that matters. This is what I see in most logs, higher CPM generally means higher DPS.

When you say the difference is sustain, are you talking about the gap between a 130 and 100CPM player, or between a 100+ and a 75? I am not sure that the first gap is particularly relevant, and I'd doubt it has the same causes.

I'd also be interested in some hard data on exactly how to define the "gap", where it is and why.

@Cage_Lizardman

Yes, we're all long-time end-game players who have worked very hard at improving. Even still, if you dig into the CPM, you start to notice some things. For example, let's look at the top CPM player for that fight, Archo. Archo is crazy talented, probably the best Magblade I have ever seen. His parses are absolutely absurd. Let's look at his CPM, but let's remove casts that aren't actually relevant to DPS;

CPM: 136.4
Non-Damage/Synergy Casts: 35
New CPM: 101.4

Of those casts, here's the breakdown;

Light Attacks: 69
Force Pulse: 14
Assassin's Will: 10
Impale: 10
Mystic Orb: 8
Bash: 8
Unstable Wall: 7
Crippling: 7
Twisting: 6
Soul Harvest: 4
Dark Shade: 4
Barbed Trap: 3
Siphoning: 2
Destro: 1
Merciless: 1

If you remove light attacks and bashes from the equation, Archo performed 77 actual spell casts. He didn't even get a light attack off for each spell cast. Over the 85 second fight, he got off 69 light attacks, which means he had a light attack ratio of .81, which isn't even considered "elite", as many players, particularly magblades, can manage .85+ consistently.

Furthermore, while his LA damage is by far his top skill, that has a great deal to do with the Maelstrom buff. Were he not running that, it's entirely feasible to assume his LAs would have been significantly lower, likely below orb and other skills, as is often seen on stam.

To look into "CPM" a little further, if you assume the "best players" are hitting somewhere between 115-120 CPM, as that is maximum optimization without bash weaving at all, we can see that Archo actually hit 1.2 Casts Per Second on average, which means he's barely even eclipsing 1:1 most of the time, despite weaving in bashes and light weaving reasonably well.

Taleof2Cities

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

You can be competitive without being a 130+ CPM player. You can clear high-end content and push scores without being a 130+ CPM player. But all those players have one thing in common - we worked our collective asses off to get better at the game. We invested the time, effort and energy to not coast by on garbage mechanics, and we should be rewarded for that investment.

OK, so you're saying the change in LA/HA isn't the right way to go about this change, @Skjaldbjorn.

What is your suggestion then to "bridge the gap"?

I'm hoping it isn't something like "no changes to the game ... players need to get better like I did."

Because that isn't going to fly.

Iskiab

In a perfect scenario for top possible dps, every skill GCD (so .9 seconds) a player should be casting a skill, light attacking, and ani cancelling the skill with a bash.

So per minute that’s 66 GCDs and 192 actions per minute.

The parses shown had less, probably because things didn’t fire when pressed.

I don’t understand the thinking that they want things to be skill based but want to stay hostage to lag and sever response. I don’t see what skill there is in light attack weaving either, a macro could probably do it just as well, and if a macro can do something it’s not skill. Getting the timing down for how fast and adapting to the sever timing isn’t skill either, it’s just practice.

Skjaldbjorn

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

OK, so you're saying the change in LA/HA isn't the right way to go about this change, @Skjaldbjorn.

What is your suggestion then to "bridge the gap"?

I'm hoping it isn't something like "no changes to the game ... players need to get better like I did."

Because that isn't going to fly.

@Taleof2Cities Gladly.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/518192/an-alternative-proposal/p1?new=1

Skjaldbjorn

Iskiab wrote: »

I don’t understand the thinking that they want things to be skill based but want to stay hostage to lag and sever response. I don’t see what skill there is in light attack weaving either, a macro could probably do it just as well, and if a macro can do something it’s not skill. Getting the timing down for how fast and adapting to the sever timing isn’t skill either, it’s just practice.

You can create a macro or script to cast each ability in order with perfect timing to maximize DPS. I saw it happen in WoW a fair bit. Apparently no MMO takes skill?

Iskiab

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I don’t understand the thinking that they want things to be skill based but want to stay hostage to lag and sever response. I don’t see what skill there is in light attack weaving either, a macro could probably do it just as well, and if a macro can do something it’s not skill. Getting the timing down for how fast and adapting to the sever timing isn’t skill either, it’s just practice.

You can create a macro or script to cast each ability in order with perfect timing to maximize DPS. I saw it happen in WoW a fair bit. Apparently no MMO takes skill?

Skill is adapting to mechanics, adjusting your rotation on the fly to suit the setting, etc... Being able to dodge and pick things up where you left off, doing mechanics. Things like that. Situational awareness.

Any stack and burn fight is not skill.

Skjaldbjorn

Iskiab wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I don’t understand the thinking that they want things to be skill based but want to stay hostage to lag and sever response. I don’t see what skill there is in light attack weaving either, a macro could probably do it just as well, and if a macro can do something it’s not skill. Getting the timing down for how fast and adapting to the sever timing isn’t skill either, it’s just practice.

You can create a macro or script to cast each ability in order with perfect timing to maximize DPS. I saw it happen in WoW a fair bit. Apparently no MMO takes skill?

Skill is adapting to mechanics, adjusting your rotation on the fly to suit the setting, etc... Being able to dodge and pick things up where you left off, doing mechanics. Things like that. Situational awareness.

Any stack and burn fight is not skill.

Agree to a point. I am a mechanics-driven player. My favorite fights are always mechanics-heavy. I adore Pinnacle Factotum for the chaos it represents. Same with vCR. Controlled chaos is my forte. Back in WoW, I never had the highest numbers, partly because I was raid leading, but I always did the mechanics. Always. I love intensive mechanics.

However, burn fights have a place. DPS checks aren't inherently bad, and it gives players a chance to shine if they have clean mechanics and rotation.

Iskiab

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I don’t understand the thinking that they want things to be skill based but want to stay hostage to lag and sever response. I don’t see what skill there is in light attack weaving either, a macro could probably do it just as well, and if a macro can do something it’s not skill. Getting the timing down for how fast and adapting to the sever timing isn’t skill either, it’s just practice.

You can create a macro or script to cast each ability in order with perfect timing to maximize DPS. I saw it happen in WoW a fair bit. Apparently no MMO takes skill?

Skill is adapting to mechanics, adjusting your rotation on the fly to suit the setting, etc... Being able to dodge and pick things up where you left off, doing mechanics. Things like that. Situational awareness.

Any stack and burn fight is not skill.

Agree to a point. I am a mechanics-driven player. My favorite fights are always mechanics-heavy. I adore Pinnacle Factotum for the chaos it represents. Same with vCR. Controlled chaos is my forte. Back in WoW, I never had the highest numbers, partly because I was raid leading, but I always did the mechanics. Always. I love intensive mechanics.

However, burn fights have a place. DPS checks aren't inherently bad, and it gives players a chance to shine if they have clean mechanics and rotation.

Yea, there has to always be one stack and burn fight to epeen and compete on dps, but it’s the chaotic fights that separate people.

Lord_Eomer

I hate light attack after every ability, sometime you cna not particpate in trials even have best gear, CP etc.

Because you have to light attack faster after every skill, new changes are better.

Jeremy

JamieAubrey wrote: »

This is a fancy dev's way of saying "People are using Macro's"

It is.

And to be fair, that is a real issue that needs to be addressed. But they need to address it in a way that doesn't upend the entire combat system.

Jeremy

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

I hate light attack after every ability, sometime you cna not particpate in trials even have best gear, CP etc.

Because you have to light attack faster after every skill, new changes are better.

You are probably still going to have to use light attacks after your skills if joining those trial groups are a concern of yours. The only difference is that instead of more damage it gives you more sustain - which amounts to the same thing.

Skjaldbjorn

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

I hate light attack after every ability, sometime you cna not particpate in trials even have best gear, CP etc.

Because you have to light attack faster after every skill, new changes are better.

People who think this change somehow ends the need to LA weave make me chuckle so hard. If anything, LA weaving will become more critical to sustain skills and bash weaves. Hilarious.

ecru

JamieAubrey wrote: »

This is a fancy dev's way of saying "People are using Macro's"

no one good uses macros.

Knowledge wrote: »

An average high percentile player log in a veteran trial shows "casts per minute" at about 120 in ESO. In most other MMORPGs it's south of 30cpm/APM

This does not include WASD or movements.

100% not true. ability queueing for priority in some mmos will mean two abilities per second with a 1s gcd. that's 120apm right there, and then you have off gcd abilities.