The case for removing AC from LA weaving

Dusk_Coven

ZeroXFF wrote: »

But in a dungeon, when you were about to cast a spell when you see that the tank lost aggro and you're about to get a heavy attack in your face, you should be able to stop what you were doing and do a block/dodge roll. Since with this approach defense would be the primary use of AC, we'll call it "defensive AC".

Defensive AC should absolutely stay in the game to make sure it retains its fast-paced feel and high degree of control over your character that it is famous for. But LA weaving should not be subject to AC from other offensive actions, because it does not represent a change in strategy.

There's a different paradigm where Defensive AC is allowed, but you don't get to use it all the time. An example of its implementation is a skill that does not respect GCD, BUT you aren't also allowed to spam it whenever you want because it's cooldown is long. It's for emergencies and if you blow it frivolously, too bad you're in trouble when you can't interrupt the boss's charge-up attack or channelled attack.
In some situations, the boss deliberately has so many that it's a coordinated effort from the raid for different people to interrupt, or the healers have to work too hard. In other situations, you are forced to choose which one to cancel or the group gets wiped from the most dangerous abilities, so you have to learn the fight.

Allowing unlimited cancel-to-defense opens up abuses of it, when people cancel not to defend, but to do something else and the resource cost that is supposed to limit the use of cancel-to-defense obviously isn't high enough.
And since a lot of AoEs players can just move out of or briefly sprint (a different type of cancel-to-defense), the number of times you have to legitimately use a cancel-to-defense isn't that frequent. Even if you are a tank trying to hold the boss still so you just stand and block all the heavy attacks, bosses don't typically chain one big attack after another and tanks often have damage mitigations to help, plus healer backup.

A "fast paced game" doesn't have to mean unlimited cancel-to-defense. How about players move and get out of the way sometimes?

ESO_Nightingale

this idea completely ruins the fast paced combat idea. no, just stop.

idk

ZeroXFF wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP recently indicated they no longer play this game. They stated

the proposed changes will not make my return any more likely, but putting LAs on the GCD would

. Granted, this thread is discussing the very reason they claim to not play this game anymore but I am just pointing this out so everyone understands the full picture.

BTW, from serious competitive raiders to very casual players I have never heard of anyone quitting the game because they want a different control on basic attacks than the one we have.

You should quote the rest of that message, otherwise you're just spreading fake news.

I didn't quit because of it. But I know people who were trying out the game, but didn't want to continue because of this clunky mechanic. The quitting because of LA weaving doesn't happen for "raiders", it happens for those trying out the game and seeing how broken it is.

Look again. I provided a link to that post and did not take the message out of context. I never indicated you quit because of it. I clearly noted that you stated you would not return to the game unless LAs were put on a GCD. Those were your words as you stated it so your "fake news" claim is what the real fake story.

As you just said above, you did not quit because of the LAs not being on a GCD and the people you mention are quitting because of a broken game are not doing so due to LAs either. So it is really irrelevant.

Fortunately, we know that Zos wants to keep the action-oriented combat weaving basic attacks brings to the game. That which separates ESO from simplistic combat designs like WoW, FF14, and SWTOR. We know this as fact since they did just say "Combat in ESO is one of the things that truly separates our game from others like it. It’s action oriented, fast-paced, and gives you a lot of freedom over its various mechanics/interactions."

That pretty much means no GCD for basic attacks that already have their own control. No need to complicate matters with a second control. It works very well.

ZeroXFF

idk wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP recently indicated they no longer play this game. They stated

the proposed changes will not make my return any more likely, but putting LAs on the GCD would

. Granted, this thread is discussing the very reason they claim to not play this game anymore but I am just pointing this out so everyone understands the full picture.

BTW, from serious competitive raiders to very casual players I have never heard of anyone quitting the game because they want a different control on basic attacks than the one we have.

You should quote the rest of that message, otherwise you're just spreading fake news.

I didn't quit because of it. But I know people who were trying out the game, but didn't want to continue because of this clunky mechanic. The quitting because of LA weaving doesn't happen for "raiders", it happens for those trying out the game and seeing how broken it is.

Look again. I provided a link to that post and did not take the message out of context. I never indicated you quit because of it. I clearly noted that you stated you would not return to the game unless LAs were put on a GCD. Those were your words as you stated it so your "fake news" claim is what the real fake story.

As you just said above, you did not quit because of the LAs not being on a GCD and the people you mention are quitting because of a broken game are not doing so due to LAs either. So it is really irrelevant.

Fortunately, we know that Zos wants to keep the action-oriented combat weaving basic attacks brings to the game. That which separates ESO from simplistic combat designs like WoW, FF14, and SWTOR. We know this as fact since they did just say "Combat in ESO is one of the things that truly separates our game from others like it. It’s action oriented, fast-paced, and gives you a lot of freedom over its various mechanics/interactions."

That pretty much means no GCD for basic attacks that already have their own control. No need to complicate matters with a second control. It works very well.

Still fake news. I was talking about probabilities, not absolutes. Also the "broken" part is referring to LA weaving, and it should be obvious since that's the thing I'm talking about. Just today one of those friends expressed the desire to play ESO again, and he was shocked when I told him that this hasn't been fixed yet since the last time he tried the game some 3 years ago. And the term "fix" was his, not mine. Don't put words in my mouth, you're still trying to do it here.

Unfortunately ZOS does not hear the feedback of players who never get into the game because of bug-turned-feature mechanics like this. Nobody stays because of LA weaving, because the game is fast-paced without it. But some people leave because of it, since LA weaving is just complicating the controls for no good reason.

And you're also still living in upside down world. My suggestion will not add complexity, it will remove it. Fewer pointless button presses = less complexity that exists merely for the sake of complexity. You wishing it was the other way around will not change that.

And "freedom over various mechanics" means nothing if you don't actually have a choice about whether or not you engage with those mechanics lest you be kicked from the group.

idk

ZeroXFF wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP recently indicated they no longer play this game. They stated

the proposed changes will not make my return any more likely, but putting LAs on the GCD would

. Granted, this thread is discussing the very reason they claim to not play this game anymore but I am just pointing this out so everyone understands the full picture.

BTW, from serious competitive raiders to very casual players I have never heard of anyone quitting the game because they want a different control on basic attacks than the one we have.

You should quote the rest of that message, otherwise you're just spreading fake news.

I didn't quit because of it. But I know people who were trying out the game, but didn't want to continue because of this clunky mechanic. The quitting because of LA weaving doesn't happen for "raiders", it happens for those trying out the game and seeing how broken it is.

Look again. I provided a link to that post and did not take the message out of context. I never indicated you quit because of it. I clearly noted that you stated you would not return to the game unless LAs were put on a GCD. Those were your words as you stated it so your "fake news" claim is what the real fake story.

As you just said above, you did not quit because of the LAs not being on a GCD and the people you mention are quitting because of a broken game are not doing so due to LAs either. So it is really irrelevant.

Fortunately, we know that Zos wants to keep the action-oriented combat weaving basic attacks brings to the game. That which separates ESO from simplistic combat designs like WoW, FF14, and SWTOR. We know this as fact since they did just say "Combat in ESO is one of the things that truly separates our game from others like it. It’s action oriented, fast-paced, and gives you a lot of freedom over its various mechanics/interactions."

That pretty much means no GCD for basic attacks that already have their own control. No need to complicate matters with a second control. It works very well.

Still fake news. I was talking about probabilities, not absolutes. Also the "broken" part is referring to LA weaving, and it should be obvious since that's the thing I'm talking about. Just today one of those friends expressed the desire to play ESO again, and he was shocked when I told him that this hasn't been fixed yet since the last time he tried the game some 3 years ago. And the term "fix" was his, not mine. Don't put words in my mouth, you're still trying to do it here.

Unfortunately ZOS does not hear the feedback of players who never get into the game because of bug-turned-feature mechanics like this. Nobody stays because of LA weaving, because the game is fast-paced without it. But some people leave because of it, since LA weaving is just complicating the controls for no good reason.

And you're also still living in upside down world. My suggestion will not add complexity, it will remove it. Fewer pointless button presses = less complexity that exists merely for the sake of complexity. You wishing it was the other way around will not change that.

And "freedom over various mechanics" means nothing if you don't actually have a choice about whether or not you engage with those mechanics lest you be kicked from the group.

Again, the quote retained it's context so it is you that is creating the fake news. Last post I waste time pointing out the obvious truth.

Judging by this thread and the overwhelming discourse against your idea it would seem you are creating more fake news suggesting Zos is not listening to their players on this issue since few agree with you. Probably why you are focused on twisting what I quoted.

Have fun with whatever game you are playing. Fortunately, Zos has enough sense to not this game's combat into the simplistic styles of WoW/FF14/SWTOR have since that is the reason a great deal of us play this game vs those.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings all,

After removing a few posts that were baiting and bashing, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.

ZeroXFF

idk wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP recently indicated they no longer play this game. They stated

the proposed changes will not make my return any more likely, but putting LAs on the GCD would

. Granted, this thread is discussing the very reason they claim to not play this game anymore but I am just pointing this out so everyone understands the full picture.

BTW, from serious competitive raiders to very casual players I have never heard of anyone quitting the game because they want a different control on basic attacks than the one we have.

You should quote the rest of that message, otherwise you're just spreading fake news.

I didn't quit because of it. But I know people who were trying out the game, but didn't want to continue because of this clunky mechanic. The quitting because of LA weaving doesn't happen for "raiders", it happens for those trying out the game and seeing how broken it is.

Look again. I provided a link to that post and did not take the message out of context. I never indicated you quit because of it. I clearly noted that you stated you would not return to the game unless LAs were put on a GCD. Those were your words as you stated it so your "fake news" claim is what the real fake story.

As you just said above, you did not quit because of the LAs not being on a GCD and the people you mention are quitting because of a broken game are not doing so due to LAs either. So it is really irrelevant.

Fortunately, we know that Zos wants to keep the action-oriented combat weaving basic attacks brings to the game. That which separates ESO from simplistic combat designs like WoW, FF14, and SWTOR. We know this as fact since they did just say "Combat in ESO is one of the things that truly separates our game from others like it. It’s action oriented, fast-paced, and gives you a lot of freedom over its various mechanics/interactions."

That pretty much means no GCD for basic attacks that already have their own control. No need to complicate matters with a second control. It works very well.

Still fake news. I was talking about probabilities, not absolutes. Also the "broken" part is referring to LA weaving, and it should be obvious since that's the thing I'm talking about. Just today one of those friends expressed the desire to play ESO again, and he was shocked when I told him that this hasn't been fixed yet since the last time he tried the game some 3 years ago. And the term "fix" was his, not mine. Don't put words in my mouth, you're still trying to do it here.

Unfortunately ZOS does not hear the feedback of players who never get into the game because of bug-turned-feature mechanics like this. Nobody stays because of LA weaving, because the game is fast-paced without it. But some people leave because of it, since LA weaving is just complicating the controls for no good reason.

And you're also still living in upside down world. My suggestion will not add complexity, it will remove it. Fewer pointless button presses = less complexity that exists merely for the sake of complexity. You wishing it was the other way around will not change that.

And "freedom over various mechanics" means nothing if you don't actually have a choice about whether or not you engage with those mechanics lest you be kicked from the group.

Again, the quote retained it's context so it is you that is creating the fake news. Last post I waste time pointing out the obvious truth.

Judging by this thread and the overwhelming discourse against your idea it would seem you are creating more fake news suggesting Zos is not listening to their players on this issue since few agree with you. Probably why you are focused on twisting what I quoted.

Have fun with whatever game you are playing. Fortunately, Zos has enough sense to not this game's combat into the simplistic styles of WoW/FF14/SWTOR have since that is the reason a great deal of us play this game vs those.

ZOS can't hear feedback of players who never got invested enough in the game to leave feedback. It's important to account for those people too when making design decisions if your goal is to attract more players. That doesn't mean they aren't listening, they are just victims of survivorship bias. I can even point you to older posts where I explicitly said that ZOS is listening. In the terms of the subject at hand, the PTS changes are the equivalent of putting armor on wings of the planes.

So yeah, you still can't get it right, and this is what, the 4th post in this thread alone? Am I supposed to assume this is all unintentional when you try to twist every statement I make? Not to mention the fact that you needed to start this discussion about whether I'm playing the game right now just to poison the well, as if the fact that I got bored a few months ago invalidates my 4 years of experience with the existing game mechanics.

idk

ZeroXFF wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP recently indicated they no longer play this game. They stated

the proposed changes will not make my return any more likely, but putting LAs on the GCD would

. Granted, this thread is discussing the very reason they claim to not play this game anymore but I am just pointing this out so everyone understands the full picture.

BTW, from serious competitive raiders to very casual players I have never heard of anyone quitting the game because they want a different control on basic attacks than the one we have.

You should quote the rest of that message, otherwise you're just spreading fake news.

I didn't quit because of it. But I know people who were trying out the game, but didn't want to continue because of this clunky mechanic. The quitting because of LA weaving doesn't happen for "raiders", it happens for those trying out the game and seeing how broken it is.

Look again. I provided a link to that post and did not take the message out of context. I never indicated you quit because of it. I clearly noted that you stated you would not return to the game unless LAs were put on a GCD. Those were your words as you stated it so your "fake news" claim is what the real fake story.

As you just said above, you did not quit because of the LAs not being on a GCD and the people you mention are quitting because of a broken game are not doing so due to LAs either. So it is really irrelevant.

Fortunately, we know that Zos wants to keep the action-oriented combat weaving basic attacks brings to the game. That which separates ESO from simplistic combat designs like WoW, FF14, and SWTOR. We know this as fact since they did just say "Combat in ESO is one of the things that truly separates our game from others like it. It’s action oriented, fast-paced, and gives you a lot of freedom over its various mechanics/interactions."

That pretty much means no GCD for basic attacks that already have their own control. No need to complicate matters with a second control. It works very well.

Still fake news. I was talking about probabilities, not absolutes. Also the "broken" part is referring to LA weaving, and it should be obvious since that's the thing I'm talking about. Just today one of those friends expressed the desire to play ESO again, and he was shocked when I told him that this hasn't been fixed yet since the last time he tried the game some 3 years ago. And the term "fix" was his, not mine. Don't put words in my mouth, you're still trying to do it here.

Unfortunately ZOS does not hear the feedback of players who never get into the game because of bug-turned-feature mechanics like this. Nobody stays because of LA weaving, because the game is fast-paced without it. But some people leave because of it, since LA weaving is just complicating the controls for no good reason.

And you're also still living in upside down world. My suggestion will not add complexity, it will remove it. Fewer pointless button presses = less complexity that exists merely for the sake of complexity. You wishing it was the other way around will not change that.

And "freedom over various mechanics" means nothing if you don't actually have a choice about whether or not you engage with those mechanics lest you be kicked from the group.

Again, the quote retained it's context so it is you that is creating the fake news. Last post I waste time pointing out the obvious truth.

Judging by this thread and the overwhelming discourse against your idea it would seem you are creating more fake news suggesting Zos is not listening to their players on this issue since few agree with you. Probably why you are focused on twisting what I quoted.

Have fun with whatever game you are playing. Fortunately, Zos has enough sense to not this game's combat into the simplistic styles of WoW/FF14/SWTOR have since that is the reason a great deal of us play this game vs those.

ZOS can't hear feedback of players who never got invested enough in the game to leave feedback. It's important to account for those people too when making design decisions if your goal is to attract more players. That doesn't mean they aren't listening, they are just victims of survivorship bias. I can even point you to older posts where I explicitly said that ZOS is listening. In the terms of the subject at hand, the PTS changes are the equivalent of putting armor on wings of the planes.

Just because Zos does not accept and implement everyone's ideas does not mean they have not heard it. It would be dumb of them to try to be everything to everyone. It would be utterly crazy to try. The fact most that have responded to this thread do not agree with the OP says much.

Further, in this case, basic attacks (LAs are basic attacks) already have a control that determines the results based on how long we hold down the button. A second control is not needed an

Clearly ESO has had the tremendous success that has made this game one of the top 5 major MMORPG games of today. It is posting numbers that are on par with another major MMORPG that is based on a gaming IP that is even older than TES. While performance is not a selling point, Zos is clearly doing something right in other areas and the fact remains that large numbers of players are not leaving the game over the control built into basic attacks. It just aint happening.

Spawniaq

nice one

Ectheliontnacil

How does this "Ctrl + C" argument make any sense?
Eso combat isn't typing lol.

Also: These are dreadful suggestions, absolutely horrible!

Ranger209

I like this idea best of all. I have really never felt more skillful, or that combat is more engaging because I LA weave, merely that I have to do it to maximize dps. Light attacks doing moderate damage, building ultimate, procing enchants, and now possibly restoring resources are plenty of reason for using them. Using them to maximize dps goes too far in my opinion and doesn't feel as it is a choice, but rather a necessity to this end. Putting them on the global cooldown, however does make them a choice. It becomes a sacrifice to dps which you make to build ultimate, proc enchants, and restore resources. This to me seems more their intended purpose, not to be used for dps but to facilitate other things that enrich the combat system.

ZOS_Lunar

We've locked this thread given it's baiting and bashing nature.

Please remember, it’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.