There is another real argument. Some people, including myself, think that only being able to attack once per second makes combat feel too slow and clunky. I don't weave for the dps, I weave because otherwise I feel like I'm fighting under water.
There is another real argument. Some people, including myself, think that only being able to attack once per second makes combat feel too slow and clunky. I don't weave for the dps, I weave because otherwise I feel like I'm fighting under water.
Do the bash weaving thing then, if you're in desperate need of something to click.
And at the end of the day, I don't have a problem if it's decided that the GCD is reduced to 0.7 or 0.5 seconds. I want to be able to make a choice about what I press. How fast the devs decide it should happen, doesn't really matter from my point of view (the StarCraft argument I made).
There is another real argument. Some people, including myself, think that only being able to attack once per second makes combat feel too slow and clunky. I don't weave for the dps, I weave because otherwise I feel like I'm fighting under water.
Do the bash weaving thing then, if you're in desperate need of something to click.
And at the end of the day, I don't have a problem if it's decided that the GCD is reduced to 0.7 or 0.5 seconds. I want to be able to make a choice about what I press. How fast the devs decide it should happen, doesn't really matter from my point of view (the StarCraft argument I made).
Exactly what in the current system prevents you from making a choice wether you want to light attack or use a skill?
There is another real argument. Some people, including myself, think that only being able to attack once per second makes combat feel too slow and clunky. I don't weave for the dps, I weave because otherwise I feel like I'm fighting under water.
Do the bash weaving thing then, if you're in desperate need of something to click.
And at the end of the day, I don't have a problem if it's decided that the GCD is reduced to 0.7 or 0.5 seconds. I want to be able to make a choice about what I press. How fast the devs decide it should happen, doesn't really matter from my point of view (the StarCraft argument I made).
Exactly what in the current system prevents you from making a choice wether you want to light attack or use a skill?
The fact that if I use a skill I have to light attack before it, so I'm never using a skill instead of a light attack. It is not a decision I'm allowed to make under the current system. I explain it in detail in the original post. [Snip].
[Edited for baiting]
There is another real argument. Some people, including myself, think that only being able to attack once per second makes combat feel too slow and clunky. I don't weave for the dps, I weave because otherwise I feel like I'm fighting under water.
Do the bash weaving thing then, if you're in desperate need of something to click.
And at the end of the day, I don't have a problem if it's decided that the GCD is reduced to 0.7 or 0.5 seconds. I want to be able to make a choice about what I press. How fast the devs decide it should happen, doesn't really matter from my point of view (the StarCraft argument I made).
Exactly what in the current system prevents you from making a choice wether you want to light attack or use a skill?
The fact that if I use a skill I have to light attack before it, so I'm never using a skill instead of a light attack. It is not a decision I'm allowed to make under the current system. I explain it in detail in the original post. I think you should read it before responding.
[Snip], you´re not forced to light attack after a skill if you don´t want to. All you´ve to do is not pressing whatever key/button you´ve your skill bound to, and wait for the GCD to finish and you can use your skill again.
If I want to use a skill I press whatever number (1-5) I desire, or I press my left mouse button to do a light attack. If I want to utilize them both I light attack weave between my skills. You´re personally in controll of what pace you do your actions. Nothing forces me to press both in a rapid succession unless there´s some strange compulsive behaviour involved.
[Edited for baiting]
Putting LAs on the GCD:
1. Is lazy combat design.
2. Kinda achieves the stated goals of the devs much better than anything that was proposed to date... Except there is Code's approach on forums which fits for most players and actually meaningful.
3. Allows same flexibility as before in future development.
The only real argument against it would be "but that's how ESO has been since its inception"
Where is this coming from? You certainly have the choice to use skills without light attacking in-between. Will you do less damage? Yes, but light attacks might make up around 20% of your DPS with an optimal rotation. You can certainly complete a ton of content without light attacks if that's how you choose to play.- Light attacks do not represent a choice that you have to make, you must do them, or you're just performing incorrect actions for achieving the results that you want.
First off, LAs already have a GCD. I'm not sure where this narrative that they don't is coming from. If they didn't, then light attacks would be happening at the speed that you click your mouse, which they don't. Anyone who actually knows how to LA weave knows it isn't about how fast you click - it's about timing your light attack with your skills.It is simply more intuitive that actions of the same type are treated the same, which currently is not the case with LAs. Putting LAs on the GCD will fix that problem.
Again, not sure where this narrative comes from that "mindlessly clicking" is how DPS is done. To be a good DPS, you need to make sure your dots are recast at optimal times and you're being strategic about your buffs, which is a challenge particularly for classes where they all have different durations (ie. magblade). For instance, in a fight, channeled acceleration has a cast time - are you casting it at a time when all your dots are placed, or are you going to lose dps because you're casting it when you don't have any dots applied? On a magblade, are you using your soul harvest/incap ultimate when you can stay on your front bar as much as possible to do the most damage, or are you going to have to lose a little bit of dps during the 6 sec duration to switch to your back bar? Is it worth it to maybe let your wall/twisting path fall off for a few seconds in execute? What skills are you choosing to drop in execute and what are you replacing them with? How are you managing the timing to make sure you cast your merciless resolve immediately once it procs, and that you aren't accidentally stuck on the back bar instead? How are you placing your ground aoes so that they hit as many targets as possible? In a raid, are you using your ultimate as much as possible when running a set like Master Architect to buff the group, or are you saving it to use at the optimal time so the group doesn't get overwhelmed by adds?Nobody who is playing "correctly" will be mindlessly clicking the mouse button any more.
Literally no one wants bash weaving. People who bash weave don't even want bash weaving. Having bash weaving in the game as is with the proposed changes slaughters magicka users. So now we have (even more of) a gap between magicka and stamina users. How does that make sense? Where's that gameplay diversity? Why allow for bash weaving but not LA weaving? This goes back to my inconsistency comment earlier.d) The "weavers" who weave more than LAs will still have an edge over everyone else.
Putting LAs on the GCD:
1. Is good design.
2. Achieves the stated goals of the devs much better than anything that was proposed to date.
3. Allows more flexibility in future development.
T3hasiangod wrote: »As everyone else has stated: no.
I don't understand where this misconception that people just spam their light attack button comes from. Surprise we don't.
This is what a typical end-game player does with their mouse. We don't "mindlessly click" the mouse and keyboard.
Excessive clicking may actually hurt your ratio and DPS more than mindful clicking.
T3hasiangod wrote: »As everyone else has stated: no.
I don't understand where this misconception that people just spam their light attack button comes from. Surprise we don't.
This is what a typical end-game player does with their mouse. We don't "mindlessly click" the mouse and keyboard.
Excessive clicking may actually hurt your ratio and DPS more than mindful clicking.
I will never understand how people say that is too fast or " spammy " .
LiquidPony wrote: »Even though I think this is a horrible idea to begin with, supported by flawed "principles", bad analogies, and logical fallacies (I particularly enjoy the petitio principii of "LA weaving is bad design ergo a combat system without LA weaving is good design"), there's one thing in particular that I take issue with ...The only real argument against it would be "but that's how ESO has been since its inception"
No. Just ... no.
This is a fundamental flaw in so many "arguments". You can't make a truly meaningful argument unless you actually understand all sides of the argument. This is the principle of dissoi logoi.
There are many arguments that can be made for why animation canceling in the form of LA weaving belongs in the game:
1. "Fast, action combat" is not really very fast if you are strictly limited to firing off 1 skill every second.
2. LA weaving is fun, engaging, and actually takes more skill than "mindlessly clicking the mouse button" since its timing is dependent on cast times and channels and decisions about whether to LA before doing some other action like bar-swapping (e.g., many stamina DPS will do a skill-->LA-->barswap-->skill rotation, weaving a Jabs rotation has different timing than weaving a Surprise Attack rotation, weaving during execute with Jesus Beam has very different timing).
3. A number of other game mechanics are built around consistently incorporating basic attack damage into a rotation. Enchant procs, status effect procs, poison procs, numerous gear sets but most importantly arguably the most prestigious item in the game the Maelstrom Inferno staff, ultimate generation, etc.
4. Additionally, the very concept of LA weaving is explained in in-game documentation (loading screens and level-up).
5. LA weaving is completely natural and intuitive and fits the paradigm of a "combo", i.e., "weaving" jabs into a larger "rotation" of punches in boxing.
6. Skills like the Warden's Lotus Flower and the Psijic Mend Wounds are completely predicated on the concept of basic attack weaving.
If I were taking the same approach, I could say ... "the only argument for removing animation canceling is that bad and lazy players want to compete with better players without putting any real effort into it". Now I don't actually believe that, but I believe that mirrors the approach you're taking here.
*Also, I find it pretty obnoxious that the forum moderators are in here cleaning out disagreement when that disagreement has tons of agrees/insightfuls/awesomes. This whole off-cycle PTS thing has been over-policed by ZOS, almost like they're trying to squash dissent.
LiquidPony wrote: »Even though I think this is a horrible idea to begin with, supported by flawed "principles", bad analogies, and logical fallacies (I particularly enjoy the petitio principii of "LA weaving is bad design ergo a combat system without LA weaving is good design"), there's one thing in particular that I take issue with ...The only real argument against it would be "but that's how ESO has been since its inception"
No. Just ... no.
This is a fundamental flaw in so many "arguments". You can't make a truly meaningful argument unless you actually understand all sides of the argument. This is the principle of dissoi logoi.
There are many arguments that can be made for why animation canceling in the form of LA weaving belongs in the game:
1. "Fast, action combat" is not really very fast if you are strictly limited to firing off 1 skill every second.
2. LA weaving is fun, engaging, and actually takes more skill than "mindlessly clicking the mouse button" since its timing is dependent on cast times and channels and decisions about whether to LA before doing some other action like bar-swapping (e.g., many stamina DPS will do a skill-->LA-->barswap-->skill rotation, weaving a Jabs rotation has different timing than weaving a Surprise Attack rotation, weaving during execute with Jesus Beam has very different timing).
3. A number of other game mechanics are built around consistently incorporating basic attack damage into a rotation. Enchant procs, status effect procs, poison procs, numerous gear sets but most importantly arguably the most prestigious item in the game the Maelstrom Inferno staff, ultimate generation, etc.
4. Additionally, the very concept of LA weaving is explained in in-game documentation (loading screens and level-up).
5. LA weaving is completely natural and intuitive and fits the paradigm of a "combo", i.e., "weaving" jabs into a larger "rotation" of punches in boxing.
6. Skills like the Warden's Lotus Flower and the Psijic Mend Wounds are completely predicated on the concept of basic attack weaving.
If I were taking the same approach, I could say ... "the only argument for removing animation canceling is that bad and lazy players want to compete with better players without putting any real effort into it". Now I don't actually believe that, but I believe that mirrors the approach you're taking here.
*Also, I find it pretty obnoxious that the forum moderators are in here cleaning out disagreement when that disagreement has tons of agrees/insightfuls/awesomes. This whole off-cycle PTS thing has been over-policed by ZOS, almost like they're trying to squash dissent.
to add to 2. But LA weaving is not fun and not engaging and it is clicking the mouse button in +- same pace.
and to add to 5.No it is not completely natural and intuitive. Calling LA weaving a combo is superexaggeration.
Skills and sets can be changed.
But honestly, they are not and probably are not going to change anything that is really related to combat machanics. Tweaking some numbers and adding additional effects is not destroying LA weave and AC.
T3hasiangod wrote: »As everyone else has stated: no.
I don't understand where this misconception that people just spam their light attack button comes from. Surprise we don't.
This is what a typical end-game player does with their mouse. We don't "mindlessly click" the mouse and keyboard.
Excessive clicking may actually hurt your ratio and DPS more than mindful clicking.
Sanguinor2 wrote: »First of all: No.
Second:
Will spammables be changed to account for the several losses of light attacks having to obey the gcd?
Will all spammables be buffed to make up for the Damage loss?
Will all spammables proc glyphs?
Will all spammables give ult gen?
Will all spammables proc poisons?
Will all sets that interact with light attacks be completely reworked or buffed immensely?
Will class abilities or non class abilities that work with light attacks be completely reworked or buffed immensely?
LiquidPony wrote: »Even though I think this is a horrible idea to begin with, supported by flawed "principles", bad analogies, and logical fallacies (I particularly enjoy the petitio principii of "LA weaving is bad design ergo a combat system without LA weaving is good design"), there's one thing in particular that I take issue with ...The only real argument against it would be "but that's how ESO has been since its inception"
No. Just ... no.
This is a fundamental flaw in so many "arguments". You can't make a truly meaningful argument unless you actually understand all sides of the argument. This is the principle of dissoi logoi.
There are many arguments that can be made for why animation canceling in the form of LA weaving belongs in the game:
1. "Fast, action combat" is not really very fast if you are strictly limited to firing off 1 skill every second.
2. LA weaving is fun, engaging, and actually takes more skill than "mindlessly clicking the mouse button" since its timing is dependent on cast times and channels and decisions about whether to LA before doing some other action like bar-swapping (e.g., many stamina DPS will do a skill-->LA-->barswap-->skill rotation, weaving a Jabs rotation has different timing than weaving a Surprise Attack rotation, weaving during execute with Jesus Beam has very different timing).
3. A number of other game mechanics are built around consistently incorporating basic attack damage into a rotation. Enchant procs, status effect procs, poison procs, numerous gear sets but most importantly arguably the most prestigious item in the game the Maelstrom Inferno staff, ultimate generation, etc.
4. Additionally, the very concept of LA weaving is explained in in-game documentation (loading screens and level-up).
5. LA weaving is completely natural and intuitive and fits the paradigm of a "combo", i.e., "weaving" jabs into a larger "rotation" of punches in boxing.
6. Skills like the Warden's Lotus Flower and the Psijic Mend Wounds are completely predicated on the concept of basic attack weaving.
If I were taking the same approach, I could say ... "the only argument for removing animation canceling is that bad and lazy players want to compete with better players without putting any real effort into it". Now I don't actually believe that, but I believe that mirrors the approach you're taking here.
*Also, I find it pretty obnoxious that the forum moderators are in here cleaning out disagreement when that disagreement has tons of agrees/insightfuls/awesomes. This whole off-cycle PTS thing has been over-policed by ZOS, almost like they're trying to squash dissent.
usmcjdking wrote: »This would only work in the event there was cooldowns, and in that case, there would be an entire rework of the combat system from the ground up.
No thanks.
StrangusMaximus wrote: »No. Even though I'm tempted to leave it there, I'm going to try to address at least some of your points so that others reading understand why so many are responding with, "No."Where is this coming from? You certainly have the choice to use skills without light attacking in-between. Will you do less damage? Yes, but light attacks might make up around 20% of your DPS with an optimal rotation. You can certainly complete a ton of content without light attacks if that's how you choose to play.- Light attacks do not represent a choice that you have to make, you must do them, or you're just performing incorrect actions for achieving the results that you want.
Your keyboard shortcut analogy also doesn't work for this reason. You don't have to use keyboard shortcuts when typing. Is it optimal to do so? Yes. Can you function perfectly fine without them? Also yes. Should we put a limit on how fast people type and what shortcuts they're allowed to use to make everything equal?
If you want to play a game that has auto attacks, then go play one of those other games. There are many mechanics in this game where you shouldn't be auto attacking a boss - ie. Assembly General when he's in the middle of the arena, Calefactors' reflecting damage shield (I've been doing a lot of vHOF lately). It does require "strategy" and "choice" to know when to attack and when to not attack.First off, LAs already have a GCD. I'm not sure where this narrative that they don't is coming from. If they didn't, then light attacks would be happening at the speed that you click your mouse, which they don't. Anyone who actually knows how to LA weave knows it isn't about how fast you click - it's about timing your light attack with your skills.It is simply more intuitive that actions of the same type are treated the same, which currently is not the case with LAs. Putting LAs on the GCD will fix that problem.
Secondly, why create inconsistent design by allowing AC for some abilities and not others? Why is it "more intuitive" to allow for interrupting an animation to roll dodge or block, which you refer to as "defensive AC," than it is for "offensive AC?" Either allow AC for all abilities or none (which we seem to both agree would make combat slow) - inconsistency is unintuitive.Again, not sure where this narrative comes from that "mindlessly clicking" is how DPS is done. To be a good DPS, you need to make sure your dots are recast at optimal times and you're being strategic about your buffs, which is a challenge particularly for classes where they all have different durations (ie. magblade). For instance, in a fight, channeled acceleration has a cast time - are you casting it at a time when all your dots are placed, or are you going to lose dps because you're casting it when you don't have any dots applied? On a magblade, are you using your soul harvest/incap ultimate when you can stay on your front bar as much as possible to do the most damage, or are you going to have to lose a little bit of dps during the 6 sec duration to switch to your back bar? Is it worth it to maybe let your wall/twisting path fall off for a few seconds in execute? What skills are you choosing to drop in execute and what are you replacing them with? How are you managing the timing to make sure you cast your merciless resolve immediately once it procs, and that you aren't accidentally stuck on the back bar instead? How are you placing your ground aoes so that they hit as many targets as possible? In a raid, are you using your ultimate as much as possible when running a set like Master Architect to buff the group, or are you saving it to use at the optimal time so the group doesn't get overwhelmed by adds?Nobody who is playing "correctly" will be mindlessly clicking the mouse button any more.
All of these are just some examples for one class's decisions they have to make in a split second when doing damage. Granted, the magblade example I used is demonstrating a true dynamic rotation, but most mag and some stam rotations are dynamic in some sense. I wouldn't call dynamic rotations "mindless." Even on a dummy with no mechanics, you still need to think about many of these choices to do as much damage as possible.
In a fight, you also need to be following mechanics when making these DPS decisions. I stated examples above of choices for when/how to attack vs. when to not attack. More examples: Olms in vAS jumps - excellent time to "choose" to HA for resources, vMOL backroom - avoiding attacking the dancing cats, even the world boss in Southern Elsweyr where you need to avoid doing aoe attacks and single target focus the boss. In vCR, you need to ensure you're on the right bar when the barswap mechanic happens so that you don't lose out on more damage than necessary, which is, again a decision you have to make to adjust the way you attack. I could go on and on.Literally no one wants bash weaving. People who bash weave don't even want bash weaving. Having bash weaving in the game as is with the proposed changes slaughters magicka users. So now we have (even more of) a gap between magicka and stamina users. How does that make sense? Where's that gameplay diversity? Why allow for bash weaving but not LA weaving? This goes back to my inconsistency comment earlier.d) The "weavers" who weave more than LAs will still have an edge over everyone else.Putting LAs on the GCD:
1. Is good design.
2. Achieves the stated goals of the devs much better than anything that was proposed to date.
3. Allows more flexibility in future development.
Your proposed changes would not achieve any of these goals. Damage in raid groups would go down significantly not because of the loss of LA damage itself, but because of how enchantments work, how buff sets work, the amount of damage that skills do, ulti gen, poisons, etc. Even bash weaving, which you're for whatever reason in favor of, will not do nearly enough damage to mitigate these losses. For achievements like vSS HM that demand a really high DPS threshold, you're just further ostracizing people from being able to complete this content.
Just once more for emphasis - LAs already have a GCD. You always have a choice with what skills you use and when - nothing in the game is preventing this behavior. If you don't want to LA weave, then don't do it. But don't punish everyone because some people are better at the game than others.
This fits right with the analogy I made with typing text. You want to type in all caps? Don't worry, type in all small letters, people will still understand what you wrote, even if you didn't achieve what you set out to do. Yet we still have a caps lock for some reason.Where is this coming from? You certainly have the choice to use skills without light attacking in-between. Will you do less damage? Yes, but light attacks might make up around 20% of your DPS with an optimal rotation.
I didn't argue in favor of auto attacks, I proposed that they are a better solution than LA weaving the way it exists in ESO, but ultimately inferior to treating LAs like skills. But if we are going this route, name me a game where you can't control auto attacks? In those games auto attacks are the same as a caps lock - you can turn them off any time you want, so your argument with raid mechanics is absolutely besides the point, both because I didn't argue in favor of auto attacks, and because you don't know how auto attacks actually work in other games.There are many mechanics in this game where you shouldn't be auto attacking a boss
They do not. They have a cooldown, they do not have a global cooldown. You can't use a LA as fast as you want because it has a cooldown, but it doesn't lock you out of using anything else, because the cooldown is "local" as it were. Skills have a global cooldown, because once you use a skill, you can't use another skill. So you arguing that it would make anything inconsistent is purely a failure of understanding the terms being used. Putting LAs on the same GCD as skills would make LAs equal to skills, reducing inconsistencies.LAs already have a GCD
All of those things would still have to be done with the system I'm proposing, but without mindlessly clicking the mouse button before every single one of those actions. That entire part is a strawman argument, so this is all you get in response to that.Again, not sure where this narrative comes from that "mindlessly clicking" is how DPS is done. To be a good DPS, you need to make sure your dots are recast at optimal times and you're being strategic about your buffs
As someone who LA weaves I can say that "people who LA weave don't even want LA weaving". And unlike with LA weaving that has to be done all the time no matter what, bash weaving is more situational, and I also describe how to make sure it remains situational. I literally addressed this very point in my original post. As for the difference with mag - mag can bash weave too under the proposed system, since they have to be in melee range already for the best DPS.Literally no one wants bash weaving. People who bash weave don't even want bash weaving
Uhm... Buff skills? Not like ZOS isn't doing extreme "balance" passes every 3 months already anyways. I'm tired of this argument being brought up again and again, because this is based on misunderstanding of the cause for it. The problem is not that people do little damage, the problem is that you can't make it challenging for the top players without making it impossible for literally everyone else when there is a big disparity in the performance of various players. If everyone does less (or more) damage, the content (or the damage) can be adjusted to that, but if you have a group where everyone does 50k+ DPS, and another where nobody gets beyond 20k, you can't adjust the content in a way that it works for both groups. This is the very reason they want to shrink this difference, and this is exactly what my proposal would do. Once that is done, adjusting the size of the health bar on bosses and mobs or adjusting the base level of dps is an easy task.For achievements like vSS HM that demand a really high DPS threshold, you're just further ostracizing people from being able to complete this content
Just one more emphasis - LAs have a CD, not a GCD. Big difference.Just once more for emphasis - LAs already have a GCD
T3hasiangod wrote: »As everyone else has stated: no.
I don't understand where this misconception that people just spam their light attack button comes from. Surprise we don't.
This is what a typical end-game player does with their mouse. We don't "mindlessly click" the mouse and keyboard.
Excessive clicking may actually hurt your ratio and DPS more than mindful clicking.
Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Normally I don't like to immediately discount ideas or brush aside concepts, especially without seeing all sides of the argument, but in this case, no. Most end-game players aren't spamming. No one wants a bash weave meta. Bash weaving is even more toxicly exclusive and demanding than LA weaving. Putting LAs on the GCD wasn't a good idea when you brought it up like a week ago and honestly, it's aged like milk.
Everyone here from Strange to Asian has given you all the sound, logical reasons why this would be a horrendously bad idea, and if you still can't grasp why this would absolutely destroy the core functionality of this game, I can't help you. Just say no.
1. The "thesis" ignores that basic attacks already have a control. It is redundant and pointless to add a second control which is exactly what OP is suggesting.
2. It reduced gameplay choices. Who in their right mind would waste a GCD on a basic attack if it did less damage than pretty much everything else in the game? OP's idea would literally only bad players would use a LA. Pure math would say this is a fact.
3. The entire suggestion ignores what sets ESO apart from most games and Zos' statements related to the changes they have us testing on the PTS which verifies that Zos is not interested in slowing down combat in the manner OP wants to see.
I'll go through the responses other than just "no" that I find to be particularly off-mark with their criticism.Sanguinor2 wrote: »First of all: No.
Second:
Will spammables be changed to account for the several losses of light attacks having to obey the gcd?
Will all spammables be buffed to make up for the Damage loss?
Will all spammables proc glyphs?
Will all spammables give ult gen?
Will all spammables proc poisons?
Will all sets that interact with light attacks be completely reworked or buffed immensely?
Will class abilities or non class abilities that work with light attacks be completely reworked or buffed immensely?
Weapon skills already proc glyphs. Ulti gen can be another thing to account for when designing a rotation. See, gameplay depth right there. As for the rest, in one form or another all of those have to be done already, because LA damage is pretty much irrelevant at this point on the PTS.LiquidPony wrote: »Even though I think this is a horrible idea to begin with, supported by flawed "principles", bad analogies, and logical fallacies (I particularly enjoy the petitio principii of "LA weaving is bad design ergo a combat system without LA weaving is good design"), there's one thing in particular that I take issue with ...The only real argument against it would be "but that's how ESO has been since its inception"
No. Just ... no.
This is a fundamental flaw in so many "arguments". You can't make a truly meaningful argument unless you actually understand all sides of the argument. This is the principle of dissoi logoi.
There are many arguments that can be made for why animation canceling in the form of LA weaving belongs in the game:
1. "Fast, action combat" is not really very fast if you are strictly limited to firing off 1 skill every second.
2. LA weaving is fun, engaging, and actually takes more skill than "mindlessly clicking the mouse button" since its timing is dependent on cast times and channels and decisions about whether to LA before doing some other action like bar-swapping (e.g., many stamina DPS will do a skill-->LA-->barswap-->skill rotation, weaving a Jabs rotation has different timing than weaving a Surprise Attack rotation, weaving during execute with Jesus Beam has very different timing).
3. A number of other game mechanics are built around consistently incorporating basic attack damage into a rotation. Enchant procs, status effect procs, poison procs, numerous gear sets but most importantly arguably the most prestigious item in the game the Maelstrom Inferno staff, ultimate generation, etc.
4. Additionally, the very concept of LA weaving is explained in in-game documentation (loading screens and level-up).
5. LA weaving is completely natural and intuitive and fits the paradigm of a "combo", i.e., "weaving" jabs into a larger "rotation" of punches in boxing.
6. Skills like the Warden's Lotus Flower and the Psijic Mend Wounds are completely predicated on the concept of basic attack weaving.
If I were taking the same approach, I could say ... "the only argument for removing animation canceling is that bad and lazy players want to compete with better players without putting any real effort into it". Now I don't actually believe that, but I believe that mirrors the approach you're taking here.
*Also, I find it pretty obnoxious that the forum moderators are in here cleaning out disagreement when that disagreement has tons of agrees/insightfuls/awesomes. This whole off-cycle PTS thing has been over-policed by ZOS, almost like they're trying to squash dissent.
1. It is, because skills aren't the thing that makes a game feel slow, it's the ability to react to things that are happening on the screen. Besides, as I already said, it doesn't have to be 1s, it can be 0.5s. The point is to make it so that LAs don't feel like they are part of a shortcut for activating a skill if you want to do it right. So this "one skill per 1s" argument is absolutely besides the point. I already addressed that when I talked about StarCraft.
2. It doesn't take any more skill than pressing shift before every letter when you're typing text in all caps. The only trick is to wait out the previous skill's CD/animation. If you want it to be timing sensitive, why not make skills unable to fire when used with wrong timing, why just LAs?
3. This change would allow those mechanics to be deliberately chosen by the player rather than just "be there" regardless of what choices you made. This would achieve what ZOS is trying to do with the off-balance changes, except you would actually have control over those procs. So this in fact promotes gameplay diversity, because different people will prioritize different effects.
4. Irrelevant.
5. If you do a jab in boxing, you aren't also doing another attack at the same time. A jab is treated by a boxer as a way to keep going while waiting for a good moment to do a devastating attack - an equivalent of spamming LAs to restore resources while waiting for a moment to lay down a burst attack.
6. One of them wasn't always like that. ESO changes over the years, so arguments from the status quo are not arguements.
The reason I put it there at the end, because all of what I just described, in one way or another, was already addressed by what was written before. So yeah, you could make that argument, but that would only make you look like you didn't read or didn't understand what I was saying.usmcjdking wrote: »This would only work in the event there was cooldowns, and in that case, there would be an entire rework of the combat system from the ground up.
No thanks.
Nope. We have resources to manage, and this would work very well with this paradigm, no cooldowns beyond those that arlready exist would be necessary. In fact the existing ones could even be shortened.StrangusMaximus wrote: »No. Even though I'm tempted to leave it there, I'm going to try to address at least some of your points so that others reading understand why so many are responding with, "No."Where is this coming from? You certainly have the choice to use skills without light attacking in-between. Will you do less damage? Yes, but light attacks might make up around 20% of your DPS with an optimal rotation. You can certainly complete a ton of content without light attacks if that's how you choose to play.- Light attacks do not represent a choice that you have to make, you must do them, or you're just performing incorrect actions for achieving the results that you want.
Your keyboard shortcut analogy also doesn't work for this reason. You don't have to use keyboard shortcuts when typing. Is it optimal to do so? Yes. Can you function perfectly fine without them? Also yes. Should we put a limit on how fast people type and what shortcuts they're allowed to use to make everything equal?
If you want to play a game that has auto attacks, then go play one of those other games. There are many mechanics in this game where you shouldn't be auto attacking a boss - ie. Assembly General when he's in the middle of the arena, Calefactors' reflecting damage shield (I've been doing a lot of vHOF lately). It does require "strategy" and "choice" to know when to attack and when to not attack.First off, LAs already have a GCD. I'm not sure where this narrative that they don't is coming from. If they didn't, then light attacks would be happening at the speed that you click your mouse, which they don't. Anyone who actually knows how to LA weave knows it isn't about how fast you click - it's about timing your light attack with your skills.It is simply more intuitive that actions of the same type are treated the same, which currently is not the case with LAs. Putting LAs on the GCD will fix that problem.
Secondly, why create inconsistent design by allowing AC for some abilities and not others? Why is it "more intuitive" to allow for interrupting an animation to roll dodge or block, which you refer to as "defensive AC," than it is for "offensive AC?" Either allow AC for all abilities or none (which we seem to both agree would make combat slow) - inconsistency is unintuitive.Again, not sure where this narrative comes from that "mindlessly clicking" is how DPS is done. To be a good DPS, you need to make sure your dots are recast at optimal times and you're being strategic about your buffs, which is a challenge particularly for classes where they all have different durations (ie. magblade). For instance, in a fight, channeled acceleration has a cast time - are you casting it at a time when all your dots are placed, or are you going to lose dps because you're casting it when you don't have any dots applied? On a magblade, are you using your soul harvest/incap ultimate when you can stay on your front bar as much as possible to do the most damage, or are you going to have to lose a little bit of dps during the 6 sec duration to switch to your back bar? Is it worth it to maybe let your wall/twisting path fall off for a few seconds in execute? What skills are you choosing to drop in execute and what are you replacing them with? How are you managing the timing to make sure you cast your merciless resolve immediately once it procs, and that you aren't accidentally stuck on the back bar instead? How are you placing your ground aoes so that they hit as many targets as possible? In a raid, are you using your ultimate as much as possible when running a set like Master Architect to buff the group, or are you saving it to use at the optimal time so the group doesn't get overwhelmed by adds?Nobody who is playing "correctly" will be mindlessly clicking the mouse button any more.
All of these are just some examples for one class's decisions they have to make in a split second when doing damage. Granted, the magblade example I used is demonstrating a true dynamic rotation, but most mag and some stam rotations are dynamic in some sense. I wouldn't call dynamic rotations "mindless." Even on a dummy with no mechanics, you still need to think about many of these choices to do as much damage as possible.
In a fight, you also need to be following mechanics when making these DPS decisions. I stated examples above of choices for when/how to attack vs. when to not attack. More examples: Olms in vAS jumps - excellent time to "choose" to HA for resources, vMOL backroom - avoiding attacking the dancing cats, even the world boss in Southern Elsweyr where you need to avoid doing aoe attacks and single target focus the boss. In vCR, you need to ensure you're on the right bar when the barswap mechanic happens so that you don't lose out on more damage than necessary, which is, again a decision you have to make to adjust the way you attack. I could go on and on.Literally no one wants bash weaving. People who bash weave don't even want bash weaving. Having bash weaving in the game as is with the proposed changes slaughters magicka users. So now we have (even more of) a gap between magicka and stamina users. How does that make sense? Where's that gameplay diversity? Why allow for bash weaving but not LA weaving? This goes back to my inconsistency comment earlier.d) The "weavers" who weave more than LAs will still have an edge over everyone else.Putting LAs on the GCD:
1. Is good design.
2. Achieves the stated goals of the devs much better than anything that was proposed to date.
3. Allows more flexibility in future development.
Your proposed changes would not achieve any of these goals. Damage in raid groups would go down significantly not because of the loss of LA damage itself, but because of how enchantments work, how buff sets work, the amount of damage that skills do, ulti gen, poisons, etc. Even bash weaving, which you're for whatever reason in favor of, will not do nearly enough damage to mitigate these losses. For achievements like vSS HM that demand a really high DPS threshold, you're just further ostracizing people from being able to complete this content.
Just once more for emphasis - LAs already have a GCD. You always have a choice with what skills you use and when - nothing in the game is preventing this behavior. If you don't want to LA weave, then don't do it. But don't punish everyone because some people are better at the game than others.This fits right with the analogy I made with typing text. You want to type in all caps? Don't worry, type in all small letters, people will still understand what you wrote, even if you didn't achieve what you set out to do. Yet we still have a caps lock for some reason.Where is this coming from? You certainly have the choice to use skills without light attacking in-between. Will you do less damage? Yes, but light attacks might make up around 20% of your DPS with an optimal rotation.
As for putting limits on how fast people type, I addressed this multiple times, both in the original post, in previous responses, and even in this response. It's not about limits, it's about doing away with unnecessary keypresses that have to always be done to achieve what you set out to do, regardless of any circumstances.I didn't argue in favor of auto attacks, I proposed that they are a better solution than LA weaving the way it exists in ESO, but ultimately inferior to treating LAs like skills. But if we are going this route, name me a game where you can't control auto attacks? In those games auto attacks are the same as a caps lock - you can turn them off any time you want, so your argument with raid mechanics is absolutely besides the point, both because I didn't argue in favor of auto attacks, and because you don't know how auto attacks actually work in other games.There are many mechanics in this game where you shouldn't be auto attacking a bossThey do not. They have a cooldown, they do not have a global cooldown. You can't use a LA as fast as you want because it has a cooldown, but it doesn't lock you out of using anything else, because the cooldown is "local" as it were. Skills have a global cooldown, because once you use a skill, you can't use another skill. So you arguing that it would make anything inconsistent is purely a failure of understanding the terms being used. Putting LAs on the same GCD as skills would make LAs equal to skills, reducing inconsistencies.LAs already have a GCDAll of those things would still have to be done with the system I'm proposing, but without mindlessly clicking the mouse button before every single one of those actions. That entire part is a strawman argument, so this is all you get in response to that.Again, not sure where this narrative comes from that "mindlessly clicking" is how DPS is done. To be a good DPS, you need to make sure your dots are recast at optimal times and you're being strategic about your buffsAs someone who LA weaves I can say that "people who LA weave don't even want LA weaving". And unlike with LA weaving that has to be done all the time no matter what, bash weaving is more situational, and I also describe how to make sure it remains situational. I literally addressed this very point in my original post. As for the difference with mag - mag can bash weave too under the proposed system, since they have to be in melee range already for the best DPS.Literally no one wants bash weaving. People who bash weave don't even want bash weaving
Besides, it's not inconsistent, because bashing is a defensive action. If you find the solutions I propose in my original post unsatisfactory, removing all damage from bashing is also an option - one I have no issue with at all. There you go, absolutely no inconsistencies.Uhm... Buff skills? Not like ZOS isn't doing extreme "balance" passes every 3 months already anyways. I'm tired of this argument being brought up again and again, because this is based on misunderstanding of the cause for it. The problem is not that people do little damage, the problem is that you can't make it challenging for the top players without making it impossible for literally everyone else when there is a big disparity in the performance of various players. If everyone does less (or more) damage, the content (or the damage) can be adjusted to that, but if you have a group where everyone does 50k+ DPS, and another where nobody gets beyond 20k, you can't adjust the content in a way that it works for both groups. This is the very reason they want to shrink this difference, and this is exactly what my proposal would do. Once that is done, adjusting the size of the health bar on bosses and mobs or adjusting the base level of dps is an easy task.For achievements like vSS HM that demand a really high DPS threshold, you're just further ostracizing people from being able to complete this contentJust one more emphasis - LAs have a CD, not a GCD. Big difference.Just once more for emphasis - LAs already have a GCDT3hasiangod wrote: »As everyone else has stated: no.
I don't understand where this misconception that people just spam their light attack button comes from. Surprise we don't.
This is what a typical end-game player does with their mouse. We don't "mindlessly click" the mouse and keyboard.
Excessive clicking may actually hurt your ratio and DPS more than mindful clicking.
"Excessively" and "mindlessly" are different things. Just because you mindlessly sleep-walk doesn't mean you're sprinting everywhere you go. It means that no mental effort is expended on it, and that's exactly what this change would fix. You'd actually have to think about whether you want to do that LA rather than mindlessly doing it every time regardless of the situation.Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Normally I don't like to immediately discount ideas or brush aside concepts, especially without seeing all sides of the argument, but in this case, no. Most end-game players aren't spamming. No one wants a bash weave meta. Bash weaving is even more toxicly exclusive and demanding than LA weaving. Putting LAs on the GCD wasn't a good idea when you brought it up like a week ago and honestly, it's aged like milk.
Everyone here from Strange to Asian has given you all the sound, logical reasons why this would be a horrendously bad idea, and if you still can't grasp why this would absolutely destroy the core functionality of this game, I can't help you. Just say no.
Everyone who responded negatively so far, including Asian, just entirely missed the point, same as you. It hasn't "aged like milk", because there isn't a single argument I heard so far that contradicted the fact that this change would achieve the stated goals much more efficiently and elegantly than anything that was proposed to date, including Code's suggestion (especially considering that he conveniently ignores the biggest "low APM" group that would be disadvantaged the most by his suggestion). If anything, it ages like Nicolaus Copernicus - I'm being burned at the stake by the religious pro-LA weaving lobby that will end up complaining a couple more times about rollercoaster changes that make no sense (i.e. repeat of the Summerset LA buffs after the current nerfs, and then a nerf again, because both changes are supposed to help the same people, but somehow something never fits) until enough people realize that the underlying system is the very cause of the problem.1. The "thesis" ignores that basic attacks already have a control. It is redundant and pointless to add a second control which is exactly what OP is suggesting.
2. It reduced gameplay choices. Who in their right mind would waste a GCD on a basic attack if it did less damage than pretty much everything else in the game? OP's idea would literally only bad players would use a LA. Pure math would say this is a fact.
3. The entire suggestion ignores what sets ESO apart from most games and Zos' statements related to the changes they have us testing on the PTS which verifies that Zos is not interested in slowing down combat in the manner OP wants to see.
1. Please explain, I don't know what you mean.
2. People who need resources. People who decided to build for less sustain to have higher burst, and would benefit from a lower cost rotation when the fight takes longer than they anticipated. People who have always done it (i.e. part of the group that the PTS changes were supposed to help in the first place). People who want to activate the Ulti regen. People who don't have a weapon skill slotted, but would like to activate the enchant. PvPers who would suddenly have the option to control when their enchant procs so that they can line it up with their burst combo instead of having it wasted on reapplying DoTs. There are a lot of people who would use LAs for very different reasons in very different gameplay situations. Something that isn't true when you always have to do LA weaving, because otherwise you're doing it all wrong.
3. I'm not interested in slowing down combat, and this change wouldn't do it, it would just simplify the controls. I explained it at length. If you want to reduce the GCD to 0.5s, I have no problem with that, but I don't want to have to press the same button with every GCD regardless of what I'm trying to do.
EDIT: write-out the term "auto attacks", because for some reason the abbreviation of the term gets censored.
. Granted, this thread is discussing the very reason they claim to not play this game anymore but I am just pointing this out so everyone understands the full picture.the proposed changes will not make my return any more likely, but putting LAs on the GCD would
OP recently indicated they no longer play this game. They stated. Granted, this thread is discussing the very reason they claim to not play this game anymore but I am just pointing this out so everyone understands the full picture.the proposed changes will not make my return any more likely, but putting LAs on the GCD would
BTW, from serious competitive raiders to very casual players I have never heard of anyone quitting the game because they want a different control on basic attacks than the one we have.
LA weaving while staying on target I'm between attacks is an acquired skill.
CAN you stay on target long enough to get both attacks off. If Yes, then you deserve added damage.