LA/HA Feedback and about APM skill gap

Heimdarm

Hello!

I have 1200+hours in the game, not sure if it's important, I tought I mention it. I play PVE (till HM dungeons) and all of PVP.

The changes are great the direction is great and I hope the devs will go forward on this path. Weaving should not be a thing and we should totally get rid of it.

There are a lot of MMOs on the market and what's in the official post ESO is really true that this is one, if not the most action oriented one. There is a smaller, less popular, more buggy game on the market called Neverwinter. (NOT Neverwinter Nights, just Neverwinter) I mention this game because with all of it's flaws, bugs and mistakes, that game's action system should be the leading example for ESO to stay on top of other MMOs.

In ESO a DPS use 5 skills while continously weaving then bar change for another 5 skills and repeat. This is ridicoulos in an action oriented game. What we call skill in this game is not intelligence based decision making in the 99% of the time. No, what we call player skill here is physical dexterity about pushing as much keys as we can. Playing on a piano is easier than that, and while it's laughable I can compare to the japanase dancing games where extreme dexterity is required.

But in an action oriented game this should not be a thing. Look at Neverwinter, where you use about 4-5 skills and that is all, no more! (except one line of HR) There are even some longer cooldowns on them, and there is no bar change option. In that game I can focus 90% on the combat area (and enjoy gameplay) and only 10% of that few skills and their cooldowns. In this game it is reverse. I know there are a lot of players who are very good at weaving and this is not a problem for them, but there are many who want less keyboard management.

Some players say the game wants to be noob friendly with these changes and with previously introduced armor sets. While it's true that the game is going on the path of an action MMO I would not call myself or other players noobs, who are bad at weaving and want less keyboard management. Of course I can be wrong, but I hardly believe that players can have satisfaction and more gameplay enjoyment in the same combat environment if they need to press more keys next to each other in the same amount of time. For maximum gameplay enjoyment if we talk about a melee class the goal should be using 5 skills. Gap close, spam attack, execute, a self heal skill and a buff/utility. You can't be serious that it gives more enjoyment to press 5 keys/buttons for the same thing than to press one? Again, we are talking about an action mmo, not a wow or swtor style game with long skill cooldowns.

You can still be better than the others. Being a skilled player means you use your intelligence to find the best mix of armor sets, skills for your character, you have experience for your own, and knowledge about other classes and with these you will use your skills on your skillbar in the right time to defeat your opponent. This is skill. Weaving and pushing the keyboard as fast as you can in given order is dexterity. These are totally different things.

Animation cancelling should not be a thing at all in this game, and while the changes are great if they implemented there can be much more to done in the good direction. I think light attack should be completely removed from the game, and bar swap in combat should also not be possible, limiting players to have 5 skills for a combat situation.

Rianai

Heimdarm wrote: »

Being a skilled player means you use your intelligence to find the best mix of armor sets, skills for your character, you have experience for your own, and knowledge about other classes and with these you will use your skills on your skillbar in the right time to defeat your opponent. This is skill. Weaving and pushing the keyboard as fast as you can in given order is dexterity. These are totally different things.

Weaving does not invalidate the need for knowledge, a proper build and efficient use of skills. All those "skillfull" actions are there and important. Weaving just adds another layer of skill and fits perfectly into the "efficient use of your character's abilities" kategory. It also has nothing to do with "mashing your buttons as fast as possible".

eovogtb16_ESO

Sounds to me by reading your description of combat in this game that you do not understand it at all.

"In ESO a DPS use 5 skills while continously weaving then bar change for another 5 skills and repeat. This is ridicoulos in an action oriented game. What we call skill in this game is not intelligence based decision making in the 99% of the time. No, what we call player skill here is physical dexterity about pushing as much keys as we can. Playing on a piano is easier than that, and while it's laughable I can compare to the japanase dancing games where extreme dexterity is required."

Is this what you think a good player does?

Also you people who do not understand what animation canceling is really need to stop complaining about it. It's not some magic thing that lets good players perform more actions than the global cooldown allows. You can't use more than 1 gcd per second and all the animation canceling in the world isn't going to let you do more than that. All good players do is cut off the animations to their light attacks l, that's it. You can go further and bash/block cancel skill animations but that isn't going to help you cast more than the allowed skills.

Zatox

Does my APM increases if I'm jumping in PVP?

Heimdarm

Rianai wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

Being a skilled player means you use your intelligence to find the best mix of armor sets, skills for your character, you have experience for your own, and knowledge about other classes and with these you will use your skills on your skillbar in the right time to defeat your opponent. This is skill. Weaving and pushing the keyboard as fast as you can in given order is dexterity. These are totally different things.

Weaving does not invalidate the need for knowledge, a proper build and efficient use of skills. All those "skillfull" actions are there and important.

I agree. I did not write nowhere weaving invalidates it.

Rianai wrote: »

Weaving just adds another layer of skill and fits perfectly into the "efficient use of your character's abilities" kategory. It also has nothing to do with "mashing your buttons as fast as possible".

No, it does not add a layer of skill. It unnecessary adds a layer of dexterity and the need of muscle memory reflexes.

Imagine a minigame for example for fishing in any other game where you need to push 5 keys + 6th (key for swap) while pushing a mouse button between each key push, but in the right time, and all this to catch the fish. Now imagine an action game other then ESO. Any FPS.. Now, to do as much damage in that FPS as before you need to do this 5+1 key + weaving formula. Will the game be better? Will it give you more enjoyment? No, lol, because it is an action game and the whole mechanism is stupid for an action game...

Heimdarm

eovogtb16_ESO wrote: »

Sounds to me by reading your description of combat in this game that you do not understand it at all.

"In ESO a DPS use 5 skills while continously weaving then bar change for another 5 skills and repeat. This is ridicoulos in an action oriented game. What we call skill in this game is not intelligence based decision making in the 99% of the time. No, what we call player skill here is physical dexterity about pushing as much keys as we can. Playing on a piano is easier than that, and while it's laughable I can compare to the japanase dancing games where extreme dexterity is required."

Is this what you think a good player does?

Partly, yes it is what a good player does. Not just this, but a good DPS player is weaving and keeping his rotation, rarely changes it when needed. If you do not agree, the error is in your device.

eovogtb16_ESO wrote: »

Also you people who do not understand what animation canceling is really need to stop complaining about it. It's not some magic thing that lets good players perform more actions than the global cooldown allows. You can't use more than 1 gcd per second and all the animation canceling in the world isn't going to let you do more than that. All good players do is cut off the animations to their light attacks l, that's it. You can go further and bash/block cancel skill animations but that isn't going to help you cast more than the allowed skills.

I know what animation canceling is, I can use it, I can weave. Noone said it's some magical thing. The topic is about it's not being fun in an action game. If you do not understand what I wrote in the first post, please read it again.

Even running forward can be coded in a way that you need to use 5 buttons to do it. Would it be fun? No.

LadyNalcarya

Heimdarm wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

Being a skilled player means you use your intelligence to find the best mix of armor sets, skills for your character, you have experience for your own, and knowledge about other classes and with these you will use your skills on your skillbar in the right time to defeat your opponent. This is skill. Weaving and pushing the keyboard as fast as you can in given order is dexterity. These are totally different things.

Weaving does not invalidate the need for knowledge, a proper build and efficient use of skills. All those "skillfull" actions are there and important.

I agree. I did not write nowhere weaving invalidates it.

Rianai wrote: »

Weaving just adds another layer of skill and fits perfectly into the "efficient use of your character's abilities" kategory. It also has nothing to do with "mashing your buttons as fast as possible".

No, it does not add a layer of skill. It unnecessary adds a layer of dexterity and the need of muscle memory reflexes.

Imagine a minigame for example for fishing in any other game where you need to push 5 keys + 6th (key for swap) while pushing a mouse button between each key push, but in the right time, and all this to catch the fish. Now imagine an action game other then ESO. Any FPS.. Now, to do as much damage in that FPS as before you need to do this 5+1 key + weaving formula. Will the game be better? Will it give you more enjoyment? No, lol, because it is an action game and the whole mechanism is stupid for an action game...

Dexterity and muscle memory certainly add an extra skill level, though. And even at the highest level, APM in ESO is not even that high compared to games like Starcraft.
It's true that not every player is capable of becoming a top dd. And as someone who will never rival the likes of Liko due to health issues I don't think that it would be fair to bring them down just so I can be as strong as them.

ketsparrowhawk

Anytime I see someone describe LA weaving as "frantic" or anything like that.. I have to imagine they're doing it wrong.

You click your mouse button. Then you activate an ability.

Congrats. You are now light-attack weaving.

LadyNalcarya

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Anytime I see someone describe LA weaving as "frantic" or anything like that.. I have to imagine they're doing it wrong.

You click your mouse button. Then you activate an ability.

Congrats. You are now light-attack weaving.

They are doing it wrong. Whenever I try to help guildies in my social guild, they have a lot of misconceptions and weird ideas about weaving, making it much more complicated than it should be.

Heimdarm

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

Being a skilled player means you use your intelligence to find the best mix of armor sets, skills for your character, you have experience for your own, and knowledge about other classes and with these you will use your skills on your skillbar in the right time to defeat your opponent. This is skill. Weaving and pushing the keyboard as fast as you can in given order is dexterity. These are totally different things.

Weaving does not invalidate the need for knowledge, a proper build and efficient use of skills. All those "skillfull" actions are there and important.

I agree. I did not write nowhere weaving invalidates it.

Rianai wrote: »

Weaving just adds another layer of skill and fits perfectly into the "efficient use of your character's abilities" kategory. It also has nothing to do with "mashing your buttons as fast as possible".

No, it does not add a layer of skill. It unnecessary adds a layer of dexterity and the need of muscle memory reflexes.

Imagine a minigame for example for fishing in any other game where you need to push 5 keys + 6th (key for swap) while pushing a mouse button between each key push, but in the right time, and all this to catch the fish. Now imagine an action game other then ESO. Any FPS.. Now, to do as much damage in that FPS as before you need to do this 5+1 key + weaving formula. Will the game be better? Will it give you more enjoyment? No, lol, because it is an action game and the whole mechanism is stupid for an action game...

Dexterity and muscle memory certainly add an extra skill level, though. And even at the highest level, APM in ESO is not even that high compared to games like Starcraft.
It's true that not every player is capable of becoming a top dd. And as someone who will never rival the likes of Liko due to health issues I don't think that it would be fair to bring them down just so I can be as strong as them.

The game should be fun and accessible. What players should understand that it is not some kind of attack on pro DPS players, and they can have their fun in future just like in the past as well. Nobody takes away anything from a group of players to give it to another group. The game just becomes better, easier in terms of action and more fun. I can not underline enough to check out Neverwinter's combat, players just watch YT videos. The game is mediocre, but the combat system is better, also very similar to ESO's. That's why I say ESO should go live with these changes and change more in future.

LadyNalcarya

Heimdarm wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

Being a skilled player means you use your intelligence to find the best mix of armor sets, skills for your character, you have experience for your own, and knowledge about other classes and with these you will use your skills on your skillbar in the right time to defeat your opponent. This is skill. Weaving and pushing the keyboard as fast as you can in given order is dexterity. These are totally different things.

Weaving does not invalidate the need for knowledge, a proper build and efficient use of skills. All those "skillfull" actions are there and important.

I agree. I did not write nowhere weaving invalidates it.

Rianai wrote: »

Weaving just adds another layer of skill and fits perfectly into the "efficient use of your character's abilities" kategory. It also has nothing to do with "mashing your buttons as fast as possible".

No, it does not add a layer of skill. It unnecessary adds a layer of dexterity and the need of muscle memory reflexes.

Imagine a minigame for example for fishing in any other game where you need to push 5 keys + 6th (key for swap) while pushing a mouse button between each key push, but in the right time, and all this to catch the fish. Now imagine an action game other then ESO. Any FPS.. Now, to do as much damage in that FPS as before you need to do this 5+1 key + weaving formula. Will the game be better? Will it give you more enjoyment? No, lol, because it is an action game and the whole mechanism is stupid for an action game...

Dexterity and muscle memory certainly add an extra skill level, though. And even at the highest level, APM in ESO is not even that high compared to games like Starcraft.
It's true that not every player is capable of becoming a top dd. And as someone who will never rival the likes of Liko due to health issues I don't think that it would be fair to bring them down just so I can be as strong as them.

The game should be fun and accessible. What players should understand that it is not some kind of attack on pro DPS players, and they can have their fun in future just like in the past as well. Nobody takes away anything from a group of players to give it to another group. The game just becomes better, easier in terms of action and more fun. I can not underline enough to check out Neverwinter's combat, players just watch YT videos. The game is mediocre, but the combat system is better, also very similar to ESO's. That's why I say ESO should go live with these changes and change more in future.

The game IS accessible. It's a mostly casual game that doesn't require you to grind 24/7 or to pull off insane combos a-la DMC to be able to clear content. As I said, I cannot compete with top dps players due to chronic health issues, but I still can clear new dungeons and trials, even though I don't play that much. The weaving system is not that difficult to learn if you do it properly.
Also, ruining other people's fun is not fun. It's called gloating. The game has been out for many years now, and there are a lot of people who like its combat system. If they preferred Neverwinter (or BDO, or any other game), they'd play that game instead. It's not an alpha prototype or something, drastically changing existing gameplay features is not a good idea at this point imo.

SidraWillowsky

Have you actually tested this in the PTS?

I feel like SO MANY PEOPLE are praising this without ever having set foot in the PTS.

Heimdarm

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

Being a skilled player means you use your intelligence to find the best mix of armor sets, skills for your character, you have experience for your own, and knowledge about other classes and with these you will use your skills on your skillbar in the right time to defeat your opponent. This is skill. Weaving and pushing the keyboard as fast as you can in given order is dexterity. These are totally different things.

Weaving does not invalidate the need for knowledge, a proper build and efficient use of skills. All those "skillfull" actions are there and important.

I agree. I did not write nowhere weaving invalidates it.

Rianai wrote: »

Weaving just adds another layer of skill and fits perfectly into the "efficient use of your character's abilities" kategory. It also has nothing to do with "mashing your buttons as fast as possible".

No, it does not add a layer of skill. It unnecessary adds a layer of dexterity and the need of muscle memory reflexes.

Imagine a minigame for example for fishing in any other game where you need to push 5 keys + 6th (key for swap) while pushing a mouse button between each key push, but in the right time, and all this to catch the fish. Now imagine an action game other then ESO. Any FPS.. Now, to do as much damage in that FPS as before you need to do this 5+1 key + weaving formula. Will the game be better? Will it give you more enjoyment? No, lol, because it is an action game and the whole mechanism is stupid for an action game...

Dexterity and muscle memory certainly add an extra skill level, though. And even at the highest level, APM in ESO is not even that high compared to games like Starcraft.
It's true that not every player is capable of becoming a top dd. And as someone who will never rival the likes of Liko due to health issues I don't think that it would be fair to bring them down just so I can be as strong as them.

The game should be fun and accessible. What players should understand that it is not some kind of attack on pro DPS players, and they can have their fun in future just like in the past as well. Nobody takes away anything from a group of players to give it to another group. The game just becomes better, easier in terms of action and more fun. I can not underline enough to check out Neverwinter's combat, players just watch YT videos. The game is mediocre, but the combat system is better, also very similar to ESO's. That's why I say ESO should go live with these changes and change more in future.

The game IS accessible. It's a mostly casual game that doesn't require you to grind 24/7 or to pull off insane combos a-la DMC to be able to clear content. As I said, I cannot compete with top dps players due to chronic health issues, but I still can clear new dungeons and trials, even though I don't play that much. The weaving system is not that difficult to learn if you do it properly.
Also, ruining other people's fun is not fun. It's called gloating. The game has been out for many years now, and there are a lot of people who like its combat system. If they preferred Neverwinter (or BDO, or any other game), they'd play that game instead.

Why do you people keep writing that weaving is not difficult? I did not write it is. It is not fun. That is the point. The more skills you use the more variety you have, maybe the more dexterity you have can be very good in a slow tab targeting MMO. But this is an action based MMO with mouselook and fast pace. Nobody ruining anyone's fun, players cry because they don't like the possible changes. When do majority of people like changes anytime in any place? Players who oppose it the most I can compare them to the players who always cry for nerfs. They are the all time negative people. I died because of that so nerf that. ZOS plans to make a big change, blaah it must be bad, it's good as it is now do not change it. - But before the planned change also a lot of people wrote that the animation cancelling should not be a thing and it's a joke. I am sure these are just the all time negative ppl.

The game is fun now and will be fun later as well. You can clear dungeons now, good for you, you can do it later as well. But if the changes go live the game will be better and I hope they stay on this path.

MellowMagic

If you think this change is getting rid of weaving or animation cancelling, its not. Weaving will still be necessary and animation cancelling will still exist. This change will mean that weaving will be necessary for sustain with alot less damage output. I can still block and swap cancel. So players not weaving or Acing are not going feel any difference.

Heimdarm

MellowMagic wrote: »

If you think this change is getting rid of weaving or animation cancelling, its not. Weaving will still be necessary and animation cancelling will still exist. This change will mean that weaving will be necessary for sustain with alot less damage output. I can still block and swap cancel. So players not weaving or Acing are not going feel any difference.

Yes, it's clear that it is not complete end of weaving, but the direction is good ZOS is going.

MellowMagic

Heimdarm wrote: »

MellowMagic wrote: »

If you think this change is getting rid of weaving or animation cancelling, its not. Weaving will still be necessary and animation cancelling will still exist. This change will mean that weaving will be necessary for sustain with alot less damage output. I can still block and swap cancel. So players not weaving or Acing are not going feel any difference.

Yes, it's clear that it is not complete end of weaving, but the direction is good ZOS is going.

Maybe for you, its terrible and just because you hate the idea of weaving ZOS isnt going to get rid of it. This change should make that clear to you, whether its damage or sustain or anything else weaving is integral to eso now. The day they get rid of light attacks or make it another auto attack wow clone is the day this game dies.

LadyNalcarya

Heimdarm wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

Being a skilled player means you use your intelligence to find the best mix of armor sets, skills for your character, you have experience for your own, and knowledge about other classes and with these you will use your skills on your skillbar in the right time to defeat your opponent. This is skill. Weaving and pushing the keyboard as fast as you can in given order is dexterity. These are totally different things.

Weaving does not invalidate the need for knowledge, a proper build and efficient use of skills. All those "skillfull" actions are there and important.

I agree. I did not write nowhere weaving invalidates it.

Rianai wrote: »

Weaving just adds another layer of skill and fits perfectly into the "efficient use of your character's abilities" kategory. It also has nothing to do with "mashing your buttons as fast as possible".

No, it does not add a layer of skill. It unnecessary adds a layer of dexterity and the need of muscle memory reflexes.

Imagine a minigame for example for fishing in any other game where you need to push 5 keys + 6th (key for swap) while pushing a mouse button between each key push, but in the right time, and all this to catch the fish. Now imagine an action game other then ESO. Any FPS.. Now, to do as much damage in that FPS as before you need to do this 5+1 key + weaving formula. Will the game be better? Will it give you more enjoyment? No, lol, because it is an action game and the whole mechanism is stupid for an action game...

Dexterity and muscle memory certainly add an extra skill level, though. And even at the highest level, APM in ESO is not even that high compared to games like Starcraft.
It's true that not every player is capable of becoming a top dd. And as someone who will never rival the likes of Liko due to health issues I don't think that it would be fair to bring them down just so I can be as strong as them.

The game should be fun and accessible. What players should understand that it is not some kind of attack on pro DPS players, and they can have their fun in future just like in the past as well. Nobody takes away anything from a group of players to give it to another group. The game just becomes better, easier in terms of action and more fun. I can not underline enough to check out Neverwinter's combat, players just watch YT videos. The game is mediocre, but the combat system is better, also very similar to ESO's. That's why I say ESO should go live with these changes and change more in future.

The game IS accessible. It's a mostly casual game that doesn't require you to grind 24/7 or to pull off insane combos a-la DMC to be able to clear content. As I said, I cannot compete with top dps players due to chronic health issues, but I still can clear new dungeons and trials, even though I don't play that much. The weaving system is not that difficult to learn if you do it properly.
Also, ruining other people's fun is not fun. It's called gloating. The game has been out for many years now, and there are a lot of people who like its combat system. If they preferred Neverwinter (or BDO, or any other game), they'd play that game instead.

Why do you people keep writing that weaving is not difficult? I did not write it is. It is not fun. That is the point. The more skills you use the more variety you have, maybe the more dexterity you have can be very good in a slow tab targeting MMO. But this is an action based MMO with mouselook and fast pace. Nobody ruining anyone's fun, players cry because they don't like the possible changes. When do majority of people like changes anytime in any place? Players who oppose it the most I can compare them to the players who always cry for nerfs. They are the all time negative people. I died because of that so nerf that. ZOS plans to make a big change, blaah it must be bad, it's good as it is now do not change it. - But before the planned change also a lot of people wrote that the animation cancelling should not be a thing and it's a joke. I am sure these are just the all time negative ppl.

The game is fun now and will be fun later as well. You can clear dungeons now, good for you, you can do it later as well. But if the changes go live the game will be better and I hope they stay on this path.

It's not fun for you, but a lot of players enjoy the level of complexity it adds. So if you nerf/remove it, you'll make the game less fun for those people. Besides, there's not just light attack weaving, there's also bash weaving, so those who are skilled enough to utilize it will do significantly more dps than those who just use light attacks (this is already the case, but resource return+reduced damage on light attacks adds more incentive to do so). So this patch might actually increase the amount of actions per minute for those who want to do good dps.
Yes, people don't like drastic changes in every patch. Change fatigue is real, and it affects average players the most. Top players will always adapt, but an average player does not have enough time or resources to change their playstyle in every patch. The game is 6 years old, it should be more stable at this point. Especially when there's a lot of technical issues that have to be taken care of, such as lags, health desync etc.

TheFM

Oh look, another person that wants to completely rid the game of our playstyle and force us to play a different, far more boring playstyle. How about instead they simply buff heavy attack builds a little, put resource restore on light attacks as well, but far less obviously, and be done with it, instead of gutting our playstyle completely? Ya know, have options? Heresy, I know.

5cript

Have fun LA + Bash weaving then.
I dont think you understand the implications of this change, I think nobody does.

The high end community, whatever will be left of it, will make a new "best" and if you think that will be heavy attacking and abilities only, you are hopeless.

And then people will cry again: "I cant do what this guy does, BUT I WANNA" *baby crying sounds*

And this is not just about pve dps!!!!
ffs. I am a Battleground only player playing this like it is overwatch etc, swapping characters and using skill to best my opponents.
I read a comment today "this is an mmo, you dont need skill for it".
If thats what the ESO community is, then I dont want to be a part of this patheticness.

Alchimiste1

Heimdarm wrote: »

No, what we call player skill here is physical dexterity about pushing as much keys as we can. Playing on a piano is easier than that, .[/b]

Need I say more ?
HAHA

leepalmer95

Imagine thinking weaving is so difficult playing a piano is harder.

I don't understand trying to cater to players so bad and so useless at the game that after 1200 hours they can't get a basic skill down. Its an action game.

They're trying to lower the ceiling to players who don't want to improve, just leave them. There has got to be some incentive to improve in this game. Encourage the average player skill to improve to reduce the gap.

I dont see how its enjoyable pressing a button every 1s and thats it for the combat. Combo's, weaving, cancelling etc.. all make the game much more fast paced.

Miss_MakeItRain

Heimdarm wrote: »

Animation cancelling should not be a thing at all in this game, and while the changes are great if they implemented there can be much more to done in the good direction. I think light attack should be completely removed from the game, and bar swap in combat should also not be possible, limiting players to have 5 skills for a combat situation.

Tbh I didn't bother reading anything after the first paragraph sentence because lol wtf.
But then I saw this gem at the end. Well done on a great troll post hahahahaha.

If not a troll post, then big yikes.

Tessitura

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Imagine thinking weaving is so difficult playing a piano is harder.

I don't understand trying to cater to players so bad and so useless at the game that after 1200 hours they can't get a basic skill down. Its an action game.

They're trying to lower the ceiling to players who don't want to improve, just leave them. There has got to be some incentive to improve in this game. Encourage the average player skill to improve to reduce the gap.

I dont see how its enjoyable pressing a button every 1s and thats it for the combat. Combo's, weaving, cancelling etc.. all make the game much more fast paced.

You know, some of those players might not be as useless if they lowered the bar for being useful in this game. No where did they ever advertise this game as some elite , high skill cap game for pro's only. They are catering to what brings them money and makes the game more fun for the most people. And to be fair, weaving was not a combat method this engine they are using was built to handle well, so getting a grip on it at some point was always going to happen. They don't need to remove it just find a way to get the engine to handle it better. Which is what I think they are trying to do.

SekiMou

What can I say... You don't know how to weave at all AND you have absolutely no idea on how to play a piano... LMAO

Sanguinor2

Tessitura wrote: »

You know, some of those players might not be as useless if they lowered the bar for being useful in this game. No where did they ever advertise this game as some elite , high skill cap game for pro's only. They are catering to what brings them money and makes the game more fun for the most people. And to be fair, weaving was not a combat method this engine they are using was built to handle well, so getting a grip on it at some point was always going to happen. They don't need to remove it just find a way to get the engine to handle it better. Which is what I think they are trying to do.

The engine was also built for clientside calculations and checks. And that will never come back and likely Plays a much bigger role in Performance issues since they moved that stuff to serverside years ago.

Tessitura

So I do not agree with everything the OP says or suggests, for one weaving is a skill, you have to learn, develop, and practice it which fits the definition of a skill. But I do agree that it was a half baked system that resulted in more frustrating moments and less fun for more people then it resulted in fun good times. Not to mention how badly this engine handles it. ( Among so many other things it handles badly. ) So, yes, I am glad they are trying to change something, but the changes so far seem to not being working out, I am waiting to see how this next round of changes goes down before judging if it was the right move or not.

leepalmer95

Tessitura wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Imagine thinking weaving is so difficult playing a piano is harder.

I don't understand trying to cater to players so bad and so useless at the game that after 1200 hours they can't get a basic skill down. Its an action game.

They're trying to lower the ceiling to players who don't want to improve, just leave them. There has got to be some incentive to improve in this game. Encourage the average player skill to improve to reduce the gap.

I dont see how its enjoyable pressing a button every 1s and thats it for the combat. Combo's, weaving, cancelling etc.. all make the game much more fast paced.

You know, some of those players might not be as useless if they lowered the bar for being useful in this game. No where did they ever advertise this game as some elite , high skill cap game for pro's only. They are catering to what brings them money and makes the game more fun for the most people. And to be fair, weaving was not a combat method this engine they are using was built to handle well, so getting a grip on it at some point was always going to happen. They don't need to remove it just find a way to get the engine to handle it better. Which is what I think they are trying to do.

The bar is not that high, the game has one of the lowest skill ceilings in mmo's ive ever seen. The difference between someone pressing a skill every second and pressing a skill light attack isn't hard. I taught a friend how to do it in 10m on a test dummy last patch.

I mean the engine struggling because of cancelling and weaving is a lovely new excuse. People weaved way before the game started having lot of issues and it was fine then. Its an excuse to 'nerf' long term players and buff potato players even further, nothing more.

StaticWave

I find it laughable that many people actually believe this proposed change would somehow lower the skill gap and help them perform better than they currently do. News flash, it wouldn't. People who perfected LA weaving will definitely do less DPS, but their muscle memory is still there as long as animation cancelling exists in the game. If anything, the skill gap will be even wider as experienced players find new ways to regain their DPS loss, while those who have low APM will struggle even more to maintain their current DPS. But go ahead and applaud the change, you'll never be as good as high APM players if all you're doing is asking ZOS to nerf them so you can "hopefully" climb to their level

Tessitura

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Imagine thinking weaving is so difficult playing a piano is harder.

I don't understand trying to cater to players so bad and so useless at the game that after 1200 hours they can't get a basic skill down. Its an action game.

They're trying to lower the ceiling to players who don't want to improve, just leave them. There has got to be some incentive to improve in this game. Encourage the average player skill to improve to reduce the gap.

I dont see how its enjoyable pressing a button every 1s and thats it for the combat. Combo's, weaving, cancelling etc.. all make the game much more fast paced.

You know, some of those players might not be as useless if they lowered the bar for being useful in this game. No where did they ever advertise this game as some elite , high skill cap game for pro's only. They are catering to what brings them money and makes the game more fun for the most people. And to be fair, weaving was not a combat method this engine they are using was built to handle well, so getting a grip on it at some point was always going to happen. They don't need to remove it just find a way to get the engine to handle it better. Which is what I think they are trying to do.

The bar is not that high, the game has one of the lowest skill ceilings in mmo's ive ever seen. The difference between someone pressing a skill every second and pressing a skill light attack isn't hard. I taught a friend how to do it in 10m on a test dummy last patch.

I mean the engine struggling because of cancelling and weaving is a lovely new excuse. People weaved way before the game started having lot of issues and it was fine then. Its an excuse to 'nerf' long term players and buff potato players even further, nothing more.

Man, I have been in this game for a loooooooong time. Weaving was always there true, and guess what, the servers always struggled too, and it got worse after they migrated calculations to be server side, and animation canceling 100% had a huge effect on server speeds after that. Can you guess why? Because the engine is super old and built for a tab target game with cooldowns. The more APM that the server and engine had to process the slower things got and the more crashes and bugs cropped up. Yes, its true animation canceling is not 100% to blame, but it is part of their issue. You can call it a -new- excuse but there as been a lot of us saying it since beta, and especially after the server side change. This change won't solve the issue, but I am glad to see them -try- something.

leepalmer95

Tessitura wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Imagine thinking weaving is so difficult playing a piano is harder.

I don't understand trying to cater to players so bad and so useless at the game that after 1200 hours they can't get a basic skill down. Its an action game.

They're trying to lower the ceiling to players who don't want to improve, just leave them. There has got to be some incentive to improve in this game. Encourage the average player skill to improve to reduce the gap.

I dont see how its enjoyable pressing a button every 1s and thats it for the combat. Combo's, weaving, cancelling etc.. all make the game much more fast paced.

You know, some of those players might not be as useless if they lowered the bar for being useful in this game. No where did they ever advertise this game as some elite , high skill cap game for pro's only. They are catering to what brings them money and makes the game more fun for the most people. And to be fair, weaving was not a combat method this engine they are using was built to handle well, so getting a grip on it at some point was always going to happen. They don't need to remove it just find a way to get the engine to handle it better. Which is what I think they are trying to do.

The bar is not that high, the game has one of the lowest skill ceilings in mmo's ive ever seen. The difference between someone pressing a skill every second and pressing a skill light attack isn't hard. I taught a friend how to do it in 10m on a test dummy last patch.

I mean the engine struggling because of cancelling and weaving is a lovely new excuse. People weaved way before the game started having lot of issues and it was fine then. Its an excuse to 'nerf' long term players and buff potato players even further, nothing more.

Man, I have been in this game for a loooooooong time. Weaving was always there true, and guess what, the servers always struggled too, and it got worse after they migrated calculations to be server side, and animation canceling 100% had a huge effect on server speeds after that. Can you guess why? Because the engine is super old and built for a tab target game with cooldowns. The more APM that the server and engine had to process the slower things got and the more crashes and bugs cropped up. Yes, its true animation canceling is not 100% to blame, but it is part of their issue. You can call it a -new- excuse but there as been a lot of us saying it since beta, and especially after the server side change. This change won't solve the issue, but I am glad to see them -try- something.

I love how everyones suddently using the term apm, now. Most have never even heard of the time and now everything seems to think its the answer to everything.

I don't remember lagging in 1.6/ 1.7? Everyone was weaving back then, heck the pop in pvp was so much larger back then.

Tessitura

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

You know, some of those players might not be as useless if they lowered the bar for being useful in this game. No where did they ever advertise this game as some elite , high skill cap game for pro's only. They are catering to what brings them money and makes the game more fun for the most people. And to be fair, weaving was not a combat method this engine they are using was built to handle well, so getting a grip on it at some point was always going to happen. They don't need to remove it just find a way to get the engine to handle it better. Which is what I think they are trying to do.

The engine was also built for clientside calculations and checks. And that will never come back and likely Plays a much bigger role in Performance issues since they moved that stuff to serverside years ago.

Oh I am very aware, and I agree that it's the larger issue, but like you said, they are not going to ever revert that, so I guess it's good they are exploring ways to reduce the APM on the server. But we both know that will not stop people from weaving. That said, I do think this might result in more build diversity though, not much more but it might be fun to see.