As a tank main in pve i think HA change is terrible

ForzaRammer

This change basically force tanks to light attack (which obv require higher apm), similarly healers will need to light attack more as well.
LA weaving will be almost as important for dps anyways, mean while for tanks and healers it will be a lot more important than now.
This changes might lower the gaps for the damage dealers somewhat, but this change will also make LA a chore for tank and healer.
Tank and healer should be the ones cared for because the lack of them, not the low output dps.

Nemesis7884

isnt it easier for tanks to throw in a couple light attacks between skills than being forced to slowly heavy attack?

ForzaRammer

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

isnt it easier for tanks to throw in a couple light attacks between skills than being forced to slowly heavy attack?

no the amount stam restored is not even close, 1 HA in current patch > 5 LA next patch

Nemesis7884

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

isnt it easier for tanks to throw in a couple light attacks between skills than being forced to slowly heavy attack?

no the amount stam restored is not even close, 1 HA in current patch > 5 LA next patch

hmm they have the heavy armor passive that also returns resources on heavy attacks? maybe they can up / finetune this

ForzaRammer

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

isnt it easier for tanks to throw in a couple light attacks between skills than being forced to slowly heavy attack?

no the amount stam restored is not even close, 1 HA in current patch > 5 LA next patch

hmm they have the heavy armor passive that also returns resources on heavy attacks? maybe they can up / finetune this

I am fine if 1 fully charged heavy restore 4-6k stam. Doubt zos will do that.

D0PAMINE

I have always weave LA's on my tank with SnB. It will be trickier with a staff though.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

LMAO. I was just thinking to myself, hey, at least this is a buff for tanks (it most certainly is). Ah well, can't please everyone (or anyone it seems)...

Nevasca

Be honest when was the last time you did a heavy for resources? You barely need that nowadays if you have your setup done correctly.

Tanks already need to la between skills to proc enchants, so tank play shouldn't change much besides not doing heavys.

ForzaRammer

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Be honest when was the last time you did a heavy for resources? You barely need that nowadays if you have your setup done correctly.

Tanks already need to la between skills to proc enchants, so tank play shouldn't change much besides not doing heavys.

no you don't need la for enchant, you have blockade for it

zvavi

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

LMAO. I was just thinking to myself, hey, at least this is a buff for tanks (it most certainly is). Ah well, can't please everyone (or anyone it seems)...

Plz explain how it is a buff. You have to la x5 in a row to get same resources as heavy attack. 11 la that are not in a row. With that much time in non block, you can totally heavy attack.

daemonios

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

isnt it easier for tanks to throw in a couple light attacks between skills than being forced to slowly heavy attack?

My thoughts exactly. I always try to sneak in a heavy attack when possible as tank, but some fights require you to almost perma-block. As long as the amount of resources returned are well balanced, I don't have an issue with light attacking instead of heavy attacking. Quite the opposite.

ForzaRammer

daemonios wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

isnt it easier for tanks to throw in a couple light attacks between skills than being forced to slowly heavy attack?

My thoughts exactly. I always try to sneak in a heavy attack when possible as tank, but some fights require you to almost perma-block. As long as the amount of resources returned are well balanced, I don't have an issue with light attacking instead of heavy attacking. Quite the opposite.

Except your LA restore 300 stam next patch, you HA restore way over 3000 this patch. With new patch you need more time to restore the same amount of stam.

Wing

ForzaRammer wrote: »

I am fine if 1 fully charged heavy restore 4-6k stam. Doubt zos will do that.

***? that resource restore you want is insane, me thinks the problem is on your end. try having some regen, or not perma blocking, jeez.

Starlock

I'm not concerned about it, really.

As it is, I know when (and when not to) drop block for a while to do heavy attacks for resources. My tanking style has never revolved around constantly holding block down at all times. Having the resource return be from light attacks will probably be much easier and more forgiving. It does mean I'll contribute a lot less to damage though. But who cares? That's not my job anyway, right?

ForzaRammer

Wing wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

I am fine if 1 fully charged heavy restore 4-6k stam. Doubt zos will do that.

***? that resource restore you want is insane, me thinks the problem is on your end. try having some regen, or not perma blocking, jeez.

I dunno about you, at least i have cleared all the dlc trials on hm with full sturdy block tank.
And the amount i stated is not that far from the amount in current patch anyways.

ForzaRammer

Starlock wrote: »

I'm not concerned about it, really.

As it is, I know when (and when not to) drop block for a while to do heavy attacks for resources. My tanking style has never revolved around constantly holding block down at all times. Having the resource return be from light attacks will probably be much easier and more forgiving. It does mean I'll contribute a lot less to damage though. But who cares? That's not my job anyway, right?

No, doing LA under new patch will take you more time to get same amount of stam, not less.

Starlock

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

I'm not concerned about it, really.

As it is, I know when (and when not to) drop block for a while to do heavy attacks for resources. My tanking style has never revolved around constantly holding block down at all times. Having the resource return be from light attacks will probably be much easier and more forgiving. It does mean I'll contribute a lot less to damage though. But who cares? That's not my job anyway, right?

No, doing LA under new patch will take you more time to get same amount of stam, not less.

I can't PTS, but I'm still not too concerned. With some of the awesome changes they made to templars - rune focus giving resources back for instance - I have been finding it a LOT easier to not run dry just in general. A slow stream of resources from light attacks will probably work fine for me though it'll certainly be an adjustment. Others mileage may vary, and keep in mind I'm not the leaderboard pushing sort of tank. I mainly do normal/vet 4-persons and very occasionally trials.

daemonios

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

I'm not concerned about it, really.

As it is, I know when (and when not to) drop block for a while to do heavy attacks for resources. My tanking style has never revolved around constantly holding block down at all times. Having the resource return be from light attacks will probably be much easier and more forgiving. It does mean I'll contribute a lot less to damage though. But who cares? That's not my job anyway, right?

No, doing LA under new patch will take you more time to get same amount of stam, not less.

That is not set in stone. They may balance the LA resource return, armour/weapon passives, CP... Saying the resource return at it is now is not enough seems justified. Saying that switching from HA to LA for that purpose is always wrong doesn't.

Nevasca

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Be honest when was the last time you did a heavy for resources? You barely need that nowadays if you have your setup done correctly.

Tanks already need to la between skills to proc enchants, so tank play shouldn't change much besides not doing heavys.

no you don't need la for enchant, you have blockade for it

You need to proc your front bar enchantment as well.

ForzaRammer

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Be honest when was the last time you did a heavy for resources? You barely need that nowadays if you have your setup done correctly.

Tanks already need to la between skills to proc enchants, so tank play shouldn't change much besides not doing heavys.

no you don't need la for enchant, you have blockade for it

You need to proc your front bar enchantment as well.

S&B enchant is half the amount so it is way less important, it is even less if you don't front bar infused.
On top of that HA proc it too, and it also gives resource.

Kadoin

They want to push you to use sets to gain the power they keep stripping.

Also, the game is a DPS race, so its not surprising tanks get shafted all the time ...

Starlock

Kadoin wrote: »

They want to push you to use sets to gain the power they keep stripping.

Also, the game is a DPS race, so its not surprising tanks get shafted all the time ...

Most content isn't, though. If it takes longer to kill a boss because of what group finder threw me in together with, I don't particularly mind. I rather like the randomness and interesting challenges that emerge from non-optimized groups. Maybe I'm weird that way. No, the stuff that bugs me are things like fancy pants damage dealers speedstering through areas and pulling everything... which makes my job that much more difficult and annoying.

actosh

La weaving for tanks is easy as *** and u sustain like hell.

Did test it on the pts. Just need to rethink how u fight.

Wandering_Immigrant

I always light attack weave on my tank, no reason not to. Heavy attacking for resources on a tank on the hand always just feels detrimental to my duties especially when there's a lot going. Though I can't get on PTS to test it I think I'll love these changes for tanking as it'll free me up to just continue tanking.

Healer though you're right. No more heavy attack for double-duty damage+sustain. I think I can live with that though as I like the overall theme of the changes.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

zvavi wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

LMAO. I was just thinking to myself, hey, at least this is a buff for tanks (it most certainly is). Ah well, can't please everyone (or anyone it seems)...

Plz explain how it is a buff. You have to la x5 in a row to get same resources as heavy attack. 11 la that are not in a row. With that much time in non block, you can totally heavy attack.

I weave nearly every skill I fire on my tank, unless I need to specifically block cast something. The most vulnerable I am ever at on my tank is when I am winding up for a HA to help with resources. This completely eliminates the need for that. We will certainly have to see how the numbers ultimately balance, but to me, it feels like a buff. Not sure where you are getting the numbers you mentioned. Keep in mind we are gong to be able to buff light attack resource return with CP.

Now what I will say, the biggest thing this accomplishes is attempting to accomplish is lowering the skill gap across the board (DPS, tanking, pve, pvp, whatever). It certainly requires more skill to ensure you weave most things, and on a tank where you have to block cast, it might end up being more difficult for some, but most of the really good tanks I have spoken to view this as a buff.

You know who I have not spoken to... @code65536 We need an adult. If he says its a nerf, I'll probably agree. He knows mechanics as well as anyone in this game.

ForzaRammer

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

LMAO. I was just thinking to myself, hey, at least this is a buff for tanks (it most certainly is). Ah well, can't please everyone (or anyone it seems)...

Plz explain how it is a buff. You have to la x5 in a row to get same resources as heavy attack. 11 la that are not in a row. With that much time in non block, you can totally heavy attack.

I weave nearly every skill I fire on my tank, unless I need to specifically block cast something. The most vulnerable I am ever at on my tank is when I am winding up for a HA to help with resources. This completely eliminates the need for that. We will certainly have to see how the numbers ultimately balance, but to me, it feels like a buff. Not sure where you are getting the numbers you mentioned. Keep in mind we are gong to be able to buff light attack resource return with CP.

Now what I will say, the biggest thing this accomplishes is lowering the skill gap across the board (DPS, tanking, pve, pvp, whatever). It certainly requires more skill to ensure you weave most things, and on a tank where you have to block cast, it might end up being more difficult for some, but most of the really good tanks I have spoken to view this as a buff.

You know who I have not spoken to... @code65536 We need an adult. If he says its a nerf, I'll probably agree. He knows mechanics as well as anyone in this game.

You don't have the habit of HA when ever is safe doesn't mean it is not common.
And LA on a tank gives you like 2k more dps at most, why would I ever bother do that?
I cleared all the trials on hm on my tank w/o bother to do any LA weave ever.
Doing LA weave to me always been more APM for non-necessary minimal gain.

Danksta

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Be honest when was the last time you did a heavy for resources? You barely need that nowadays if you have your setup done correctly.

Tanks already need to la between skills to proc enchants, so tank play shouldn't change much besides not doing heavys.

no you don't need la for enchant, you have blockade for it

You need to proc your front bar enchantment as well.

You don't use any weapon abilities on your front bar as a tank?

code65536

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

LMAO. I was just thinking to myself, hey, at least this is a buff for tanks (it most certainly is). Ah well, can't please everyone (or anyone it seems)...

Plz explain how it is a buff. You have to la x5 in a row to get same resources as heavy attack. 11 la that are not in a row. With that much time in non block, you can totally heavy attack.

I weave nearly every skill I fire on my tank, unless I need to specifically block cast something. The most vulnerable I am ever at on my tank is when I am winding up for a HA to help with resources. This completely eliminates the need for that. We will certainly have to see how the numbers ultimately balance, but to me, it feels like a buff. Not sure where you are getting the numbers you mentioned. Keep in mind we are gong to be able to buff light attack resource return with CP.

Now what I will say, the biggest thing this accomplishes is lowering the skill gap across the board (DPS, tanking, pve, pvp, whatever). It certainly requires more skill to ensure you weave most things, and on a tank where you have to block cast, it might end up being more difficult for some, but most of the really good tanks I have spoken to view this as a buff.

It's a buff to experienced players who play a tank like they play a DD. People who light-weave their abilities. People who are able to quickly light-attack and then just as quickly re-engage their block. (i.e., "High APM")

But I'd say that for most tanks, this would be a nerf. A lot of people play support roles because they can't manage the high-APM finger gymnastics needed to be a DD.

It also means you can't get a burst of stamina in an emergency. A single heavy attack restores 2830 stamina on my tank--this is with 12% in Tenacity and the Revitalize heavy armor passive. And a heavy attack with a 1H&S is very quick; it's only a 0.8s channel.

So in the span of 0.8s, you can gain 2.8K stamina. There are times when the proverbial brown waste matter is hitting the proverbial fan, when I'm preoccupied with just staying alive, when I'm most likely clenching and permablocking, and during that time, if I notice that I'm getting low on stam, I can usually find an opportunity to drop block for less than a second and I've gotten back a nice burst of stam to sustain me. You can't get a burst of resources like that with light attacks.

So, in some cases, this would be a buff. If it's a high-APM player who doesn't really block-cast and who weaves everything, in a fight where things are going well (and thus they probably won't need a burst of stam in a pinch), yea, I'd say it's a buff.

But it's otherwise a nerf. And I would say that overall, it's a nerf. And a big one at that.

More importantly, it's a change that does the exact opposite of ZOS's stated goal of lowering the effects of skill gaps. The kinds of tanks that will benefit from this are the experienced tanks. And the people hurt by this the most are the new ones who will be permablocking much of the time.

ForzaRammer

code65536 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

LMAO. I was just thinking to myself, hey, at least this is a buff for tanks (it most certainly is). Ah well, can't please everyone (or anyone it seems)...

Plz explain how it is a buff. You have to la x5 in a row to get same resources as heavy attack. 11 la that are not in a row. With that much time in non block, you can totally heavy attack.

I weave nearly every skill I fire on my tank, unless I need to specifically block cast something. The most vulnerable I am ever at on my tank is when I am winding up for a HA to help with resources. This completely eliminates the need for that. We will certainly have to see how the numbers ultimately balance, but to me, it feels like a buff. Not sure where you are getting the numbers you mentioned. Keep in mind we are gong to be able to buff light attack resource return with CP.

Now what I will say, the biggest thing this accomplishes is lowering the skill gap across the board (DPS, tanking, pve, pvp, whatever). It certainly requires more skill to ensure you weave most things, and on a tank where you have to block cast, it might end up being more difficult for some, but most of the really good tanks I have spoken to view this as a buff.

It's a buff to experienced players who play a tank like they play a DD. People who light-weave their abilities. People who are able to quickly light-attack and then just as quickly re-engage their block. (i.e., "High APM")

But I'd say that for most tanks, this would be a nerf. A lot of people play support roles because they can't manage the high-APM finger gymnastics needed to be a DD.

It also means you can't get a burst of stamina in an emergency. A single heavy attack restores 2830 stamina on my tank--this is with 12% in Tenacity and the Revitalize heavy armor passive. And a heavy attack with a 1H&S is very quick; it's only a 0.8s channel.

So in the span of 0.8s, you can gain 2.8K stamina. There are times when the proverbial brown waste matter is hitting the proverbial fan, when I'm preoccupied with just staying alive, when I'm most likely clenching and permablocking, and during that time, if I notice that I'm getting low on stam, I can usually find an opportunity to drop block for less than a second and I've gotten back a nice burst of stam to sustain me. You can't get a burst of resources like that with light attacks.

So, in some cases, this would be a buff. If it's a high-APM player who doesn't really block-cast and who weaves everything, in a fight where things are going well (and thus they probably won't need a burst of stam in a pinch), yea, I'd say it's a buff.

But it's otherwise a nerf. And I would say that overall, it's a nerf. And a big one at that.

More importantly, it's a change that does the exact opposite of ZOS's stated goal of lowering the effects of skill gaps. The kinds of tanks that will benefit from this are the experienced tanks. And the people hurt by this the most are the new ones who will be permablocking much of the time.

well said

bmnoble

For me the most vulnerable my tank tends to be is when doing heavy attacks, so long as they balance the resource return of the light attacks with heavy armor passives and CP, I won't have much of a problem with the changes.

That said they may end up screwing us tanks over when it comes to sustain, due to the heavy armor meta in PVP.

The only time I really heavy attack for resources is when I get a fake healer who provides no resources to the tank via synergies or in fights that have a lot of strong ads I need to keep focused on me like the Orb fight in Depths of Malatar

Have they changed the Tenacity CP on the PTS? or are they testing that later.

Assuming I am not using a skill or holding block and chasing after the DPS, I am usually light attacking to generate ultimate for aggressive warhorn.


Might surprise you but not every tank uses sturdy gear or block cost reduction glyphs, getting a large amount of stam back via heavy attacks is needed in certain situations.

A lot of my tanking gear is in Divines to boost the magic regen mundus stone, my glyphs are also magic regen on jewelry, I block when I need to got no desire to play a perma block build when its rarely needed in dungeons, I don't play trials so can't comment on those.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

ForzaRammer wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

LMAO. I was just thinking to myself, hey, at least this is a buff for tanks (it most certainly is). Ah well, can't please everyone (or anyone it seems)...

Plz explain how it is a buff. You have to la x5 in a row to get same resources as heavy attack. 11 la that are not in a row. With that much time in non block, you can totally heavy attack.

I weave nearly every skill I fire on my tank, unless I need to specifically block cast something. The most vulnerable I am ever at on my tank is when I am winding up for a HA to help with resources. This completely eliminates the need for that. We will certainly have to see how the numbers ultimately balance, but to me, it feels like a buff. Not sure where you are getting the numbers you mentioned. Keep in mind we are gong to be able to buff light attack resource return with CP.

Now what I will say, the biggest thing this accomplishes is lowering the skill gap across the board (DPS, tanking, pve, pvp, whatever). It certainly requires more skill to ensure you weave most things, and on a tank where you have to block cast, it might end up being more difficult for some, but most of the really good tanks I have spoken to view this as a buff.

It's a buff to experienced players who play a tank like they play a DD. People who light-weave their abilities. People who are able to quickly light-attack and then just as quickly re-engage their block. (i.e., "High APM")

But I'd say that for most tanks, this would be a nerf. A lot of people play support roles because they can't manage the high-APM finger gymnastics needed to be a DD.

It also means you can't get a burst of stamina in an emergency. A single heavy attack restores 2830 stamina on my tank--this is with 12% in Tenacity and the Revitalize heavy armor passive. And a heavy attack with a 1H&S is very quick; it's only a 0.8s channel.

So in the span of 0.8s, you can gain 2.8K stamina. There are times when the proverbial brown waste matter is hitting the proverbial fan, when I'm preoccupied with just staying alive, when I'm most likely clenching and permablocking, and during that time, if I notice that I'm getting low on stam, I can usually find an opportunity to drop block for less than a second and I've gotten back a nice burst of stam to sustain me. You can't get a burst of resources like that with light attacks.

So, in some cases, this would be a buff. If it's a high-APM player who doesn't really block-cast and who weaves everything, in a fight where things are going well (and thus they probably won't need a burst of stam in a pinch), yea, I'd say it's a buff.

But it's otherwise a nerf. And I would say that overall, it's a nerf. And a big one at that.

More importantly, it's a change that does the exact opposite of ZOS's stated goal of lowering the effects of skill gaps. The kinds of tanks that will benefit from this are the experienced tanks. And the people hurt by this the most are the new ones who will be permablocking much of the time.

well said

That's why I asked him. Haha. I dont claim to be a tanking expert, but @code65536 is as skilled and knowledgeable about tanking and ESO in general as anyone I know. As I stated, it smelled like a buff to me. I am certainly above average on my APM, and I 100% play a tank like a DPS. I weave everything I can, it's just second nature at this point.