PTS Feedback (Heavily discussed among friends, Streamers/Youtubers, and the general community)

Jjitsuboy98

Paidkilla wrote: »

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

Paidkilla wrote: »

Alot of feedback is saying these changes might be revolved around slowing the game down. It could be one of few options they have to fix the performance issue. This may be directly tied to actually fixing the performance if you read some of the debates and research going on in other threads. Funny you bring up Sypher, me and my buddies use to duel this guy in dc area of cyro before he was even a name, right at release. He was the founder of the cheese Dk resto staff build at that time and players could not understand his playstyle. Ol Sypher he loved the cheese.

Didn’t hide his builds though. Most went straight to YouTube for others to get them nerfed.

Your not lying, and boy did they abuse them. I remember his dad was mad he gave up college to be a streamer, best thing he did was leave eso, i hear he has like thousands of followers on fortnite or apex or whatever.

Yep was super successful after leaving ESO.

Paidkilla

I do know one thing, back in them days the population was massive, la weaving was not really a thing, or animation cancelling, it had not really taken off, maybe a few did it but it was not public knowledge, and you know what? there was no cyro lag, like the lag of today.

Cirantille

price101610 wrote: »

Lol, they don’t wanna manage this game anymore. Trying to kill it. Or make us all questers for new chapter.

I guess it didnt sell enough lol

I persoanlly didnt buy it and dont know any of my friends who bought it too

Sanguinor2

Paidkilla wrote: »

I do know one thing, back in them days the population was massive, la weaving was not really a thing, or animation cancelling, it had not really taken off, maybe a few did it but it was not public knowledge, and you know what? there was no cyro lag, like the lag of today.

You know what also wasnt a Thing back when Performance worked? Serverside checks and anti cheat protection.

You know what was a a Thing back when Performance worked? Cheat engine going completely unchecked because everything was on clientside, not to Mention bots and Gold sellers.

Raudgrani

Masking this as a kind gesture towards disabled people, is simply a rude gesture towards everyone not disabled. If they want this game to be played by HA/LA attacking disabled questers, I think they are on the right way. Sad to see the game go down like this. I think we've had a good community, with young/old, very good/not so good, disabled/non-disabled gamers; we all had something to do - now they are sort of starting to exclude people, they never did before.

I know people in their 70'ies who play this game, I know a few people with handicaps who play this game, and they all had a place. Now it's like they try to standardize and drag down everyone to an "equal level". It's turning into some turn based questing game. In their attempt to please everyone, they end up pleasing no one.

Jaraal

I think the whole plan is to give players something to worry about besides performance. They've proven that "performance increase" is just an empty promise. So here's a nice distraction to take your mind off the continuing train wreck. You'd think this team would want to put out the fires, but no.... go grab some gas cans and let's have some fun!


Welcome to "If it ain't broke, fix it anyway 2.0."

relentless_turnip

I don't care either way...

My question is why? How does this help new and inexperienced players?
Anyone with experience know's how to adapt to this change, a new player doesn't even know there has been a change.

Overall of course it is a nerf to over all dps potential.
PVP death recap complaints will go up.
Burst kills players, not the light attacks in between them.
You are encouraging us to increase each tooltip by 800-900,by giving us 400 free recovery via muscle memory.
Heavy attacks now do as much damage as a spammable for 2 x GCD. Except they don't return resource if you run a heavy attack build.

What happens to sustain races? sustain sets? won't they only be utilised by heavy attack builds?
I don't understand the point of these changes and who they help.

I think more tutorials in game explaining advanced mechanics would achieve a lot more than messing with core mechanics.
Apparently a high percentage of player don't even use buff food!! They need educating not cuddling.

As I said I don't mind either way, but you will upset more people than you help with this change I feel.

L_Nici

I feel like that change will make Heavy attacks pointless, they already take longer and won't recover ressources anymore if that is done, I would rather do 3 Light Attacks than one heavy in that scenario, even if the overall damage of heavy attacks gets buffed. The only weapon where heavy attacks will be strong af is bow, because they reduce the casttime by 0.55 seconds and allow you to move normal speed. And if you argue about the off balance stun, you already get it with a medium attack, so there is absolutely no reason to go all the way to a heavy one.

Only classes like the DK who gets a buff on Heavy attacks will use it and that to insane amount of damage. 3000 more just because you have a passive.

zDan

Who genuinely asked for such a huge change? A huge change in core mechanics of 6 years that nobody really complained about? Maybe if they focused all of this energy into things that experienced players have been complaining about then the game would be on the road to success.

Jaraal

L_Nici wrote: »

I would rather do 3 Light Attacks than one heavy in that scenario, even if the overall damage of heavy attacks gets buffed.

Problem with that is, light attack does 78% less damage with the new system.

Light attack spammers will become the new PUG insta-kicks.

scottii

Paidkilla wrote: »

scottii wrote: »

Paidkilla wrote: »

And there's 10 times that amount of new players that have picked up the game if you follow it on social media.

in marketing you value two metrics for growth. one is retention, or customers who keep coming back. the other is active installs after a certain period of time - this can be weeks or months depending on the product.

the worst metric to follow is new installs because this does not imply long term customers.

also an important metric is churn rate, or customers lost.

based on the data that we know as a community, we can agree that ESO's churn rate has steadily increased over time.

You have a point, but today i was researching some niche builds, it was taking me to forum posts from 2014 to current, you know how many im quitting, were all leaving, eso is dead posts i saw over the years from changes in the game or gear sets? It was like a broken record of today, and well... here we are.

do you remember the days when healers had almost instant queue in the dungeon finder? better yet, do you remember when DPS, yes D P S, had instant queue? Well I do very clearly, and this was only about two years ago prior to Morrowind was released.

Another proof to this evidence is Cyrodiil. Two years ago there was 2-3 campaigns for CP 30 day, depending on the time ZOS opened up servers. Each server was almost always full. Now days we have one CP 30 day that's usually full during prime time only.

I understand your argument sir, and whether you agree or not, I'm only supporting mine with evidence we can use to help turn this game around.

scottii

CleymenZero wrote: »

scottii wrote: »

This conversation is simple to understand.

Initial input: The community wants improved performance and fixes on bugs that have been around for several months (possible years).
Response: ZOS creates a concept for radical changes to light/heavy attacks.

Conclusion. Our requests were not heard, rather resources were devoted to change the base mechanics of the game.

Mods, before you lock this thread, do note this is "constructive" feedback. All ZOS has to do is take notes and understand the most common request from the community, and then finally fill that request.

You guys seem to miss something that becomes painfully obvious once you look at the big picture.

Have you guys ever considered that performance would've been fixed by now if they could've? I really think that performance WILL NEVER IMPROVE with the current state of the game.

Think for a bit, think about all the changes that were put in place over the last years, a bunch of them have been directed at alleviating server load and that's again what they're trying to do with these changes. They discuss the high APM (actions per minute) being a source of DPS gap for example but in reality, the changes are a way to slow down the pace of combat input.

It has always been an issue with APM. Remember the block spam kicking you to the login screen? Have you ever swapped setups really fast with Dressing Room and got kicked to login screen? These are ways the server deals with overwhelming inputs. 1 player doing this is not an issue but any doing it is so that's why you get kicked.

PvP is mostly fine in BGs bar the kinda frequent desync but overland, the moment there are 2 Zergs fighting, people get dc'd. It's an issue with too many inputs at once.

Think about it, if you weave properly, your input is about 2 per second but then, as you perform you rotation on a raid boss for example, the server will eventually have to do dozens of calculations per second per player in a raid.

For a magicka, you got your wall ticking, your orb ticking twice per second, your spammable your class and non-class dots, the effects of some of your abilities (burning etc), the enchant proccing and the list goes on. That's for 1 player but there are 8 dps in that raid plus the healer and its many targets getting healed, the damage intake all this going through formulas taking into account offensive and defensive stats. It's a massive amount of calculations being made. This addictive fast-paced gameplay is the very thing that is degrading performance and I don't think any server could handle it fluidly.

If all it took to fix performance was to "stop running the game on potato servers" and invest in better gear, it would've been done by now.

You think they would risk messing with the code so much if all it took was better servers? You think they'd bother stripping 30gb out of the game and accidentally removing textures in Wrothgar if all they had to do was to get better servers?

I know some of the stuff mentioned in my post doesn't concern you but it's stuff I've read in the forums countless times.

The reality is, as the game is played now, there will never really be performance improvement. They need to rework how it is played to improve the performance.

Wasn't just about 1.5 months ago, and performance was much more reliable than it is now? The issue is with the number of calculations the server has. In coding, the more variables there are, the more latency a process can become. One significant example would be the number of gear sets that are in game right now - most of which are not even used. However, there are some players that use these "gear sets". Since there is a huge variation between sets, actions, etc., this causes more calculations.

In the PTS notes, it appears the developers goal is not to improve performance but to introduce new base combat mechanics that evens the playing field for highly skilled players and those who are not. There are some who are ok with the changes.
Some who do not care. But the issue is with many community member who share the same frustration of lack of performance improvements where performance has gotten worse, not better as identified in TESO's roadmap.

scottii

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Paidkilla wrote: »

I do know one thing, back in them days the population was massive, la weaving was not really a thing, or animation cancelling, it had not really taken off, maybe a few did it but it was not public knowledge, and you know what? there was no cyro lag, like the lag of today.

You know what also wasnt a Thing back when Performance worked? Serverside checks and anti cheat protection.

You know what was a a Thing back when Performance worked? Cheat engine going completely unchecked because everything was on clientside, not to Mention bots and Gold sellers.

those were the days. =P

scottii

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I don't care either way...

My question is why? How does this help new and inexperienced players?
Anyone with experience know's how to adapt to this change, a new player doesn't even know there has been a change.

Overall of course it is a nerf to over all dps potential.
PVP death recap complaints will go up.
Burst kills players, not the light attacks in between them.
You are encouraging us to increase each tooltip by 800-900,by giving us 400 free recovery via muscle memory.
Heavy attacks now do as much damage as a spammable for 2 x GCD. Except they don't return resource if you run a heavy attack build.

What happens to sustain races? sustain sets? won't they only be utilised by heavy attack builds?
I don't understand the point of these changes and who they help.

I think more tutorials in game explaining advanced mechanics would achieve a lot more than messing with core mechanics.
Apparently a high percentage of player don't even use buff food!! They need educating not cuddling.

As I said I don't mind either way, but you will upset more people than you help with this change I feel.

very good question. imagine if PUBG wanted to level the playing field by making it possible for everyone to have auto-aim.

Ascarl

I can fully understand that ZOS is more interested in making the casual playerbase happy. For them the difference is a large number of people generate much revenue and little trouble and a small hardcore crowd that is generate littler revenue but much trouble.
Which group would you prefer IRL?

scottii

Ascarl wrote: »

I can fully understand that ZOS is more interested in making the casual playerbase happy. For them the difference is a large number of people generate much revenue and little trouble and a small hardcore crowd that is generate littler revenue but much trouble.
Which group would you prefer IRL?

I remember when WOW did this in Cataclysm by introducing a LFR (Looking for Raid). Level 85 players could get end-game gear in about 1 week with little to no effort. The only better gear was slightly better by maybe 1%.

The result was not good for the population as many players completed their objective and moved on to other games. Some came back, but that was only during new patches or expansions.

Marcus_Thracius

Cooldown scrolls online
Here I come !

Lole

Am I missing something ? I honestly don’t understand that qqing about the changes...

How is it going to drive Away vet players ?It’s not a hard mechanic at all, it’s also for me personally not a fun mechanic to lightweave... it was a necessary evil and nothing else, but is it hard to do so ? No it’s not at all... took my friends that were new to the game less then 1h to practice decent lightweaving

And if I understand it correctly you still need to lightweave to stay Gucci in your reaource department no ?

Aside from that I like all changes to heavy attacks, especially for the destro and healstaffs...
The deletion of the movementspeed Penalty feels really good...
Also the buff to lightening stuffs feels really nice


Overall the changes look much better than some people try to make them look like.
But humans don’t like to change

visionality

Paidkilla wrote: »

I do know one thing, back in them days the population was massive, la weaving was not really a thing, or animation cancelling, it had not really taken off, maybe a few did it but it was not public knowledge, and you know what? there was no cyro lag, like the lag of today.

Seriously, the majority of PVPers doesnt do la weaving today. I'm not talking about the few 'pros' but the mass of little zerglings that are happy to hit with a solo light attack or activate a skill every now and then. Most players are far below the level where they can weave AND survive in Cyordiil. Not to mention that the lag considerably breaks weaving. A lot of weaved skills simply dont go off.

My best bet for the horrid performance since last patch is actually something that seems rather small but might hide a mountain of addional background checks: The fix of false sound signs, e.g. when drinking a potion during battle (the game gave you a little ping sound that you did but actually didnt activate the potion im most cases). I'd bet that ZOS didnt reprogram the sound alert but just added another little in-game check: "If player pressed button for X and you need to ring sound Y, wait for server confirmation for skill Z before ringing sound Y". And voilá, every player is stuck in a perpetual feedback loop, doubling calculation load for every single skill.

Just a wild guess ofc, I'm not a programmer and didnt check program code to understand what ZOS did.

When it comes to overall performance, I 100% agree with @CleymenZero: If performance could be improved, ZOS would have done it ages ago. There is simply no reason to have unhappy customers if you can provide them with a better product for the same price.

Malmai

They always do this when people are pissed at performance,they do something to hate more than performance. Year after year

Sylosi

scottii wrote: »

very good question. imagine if PUBG wanted to level the playing field by making it possible for everyone to have auto-aim.

PUBG actually highlights Zenimax's problem in regard to PvP and skill gap.

PUGB like the majority of actual PvP games has matchmaking, this is a big factor in producing skilled and maybe more importantly fun PvP.

Now look at Cyrodil, you have a game mode with no matchmaking, so you have:

- Players with 10k hours vs those with 100 hours.
- Tryhard vs casual.
- 16 year olds vs 60 year olds

and so on...

This produces bad, low skilled PvP (only baddies think beating up on some guy who has played the game a tenth of the time is "skilled" or fun). Which essentially is why RvR fails in every game that tries it, it only appeals to those who are fine with what is low quality, uncompetitive, low skilled PvP.

And it is why MOBAs, Shooters, RTS, Fighting games, etc which have MMR, leagues, etc can cope with massive skill gaps (far larger than this game), but produce good, healthy PvP and actually grow. Whilst RvR and largely PvP in general fails miserably in MMORPGs and why even much smaller skill gaps in games like this present a problem for the health of the game.

Raudgrani

Ascarl wrote: »

I can fully understand that ZOS is more interested in making the casual playerbase happy. For them the difference is a large number of people generate much revenue and little trouble and a small hardcore crowd that is generate littler revenue but much trouble.
Which group would you prefer IRL?

I don't see why there's always this "who would you chose"? If ZOS feels unskilled "casual" players are not doing well enough, and needs to increase their recovery through light attacks, I can't see why they need to cut the damage with such a huge chunk - AND REMOVE heavy attack restore?
Why not just keep heavy attack restore, perhaps decrease it with some 20-40% (I genuinely HATE these "... by 70%" changes ZOS always does, why never a gradual change!?), keeping the same light attack damage, or perhaps decreasing it by some 20% and leave heavy attack damage unchanged?

I feel genuinely sorry for people facing my petsorc if this comes through as suggested. With the suggested numbers, my heavy attack tooltip is 78k damage, even if I switch one of the sets for a sustain one - in order to still be viable when my heavy attacks doesn't restore magicka anymore. I already kill people on industrial level in big fights, using nothing but heavy attacks.

This idea that ZOS have, that we should all be ok (or even HAPPY) with changing how we basically play the game every 3 months, is mind boggling. The time we need to grind new sets, and all the gold and resources we need to perfect them, it's like nothing else I've seen in any game before. This needs to stop.

Ri_Khan

Until I try it out it's hard to say, but it seems to me that this change will actually be a step in the right direction. If my HD had enough space, I'd be on the PTS right now checking it out instead of reading all these drama queen qq threads.

If it also happens to cause an exodus of all these self-proclaimed "skilled" players (most likely the same try-hards that take advantage of every single exploit, cheese build, e-z mode add-on and macro available) ... no real loss.

TheFM

Paidkilla wrote: »

So we talking about the 10 commenters on Dottz video, the 5 friends you have on discord, or the 30 or so angry people on these forums? Cause i am sure 85% of the eso community has not discussed this. Why do people on the forums always act like they are the voice of ESO? lol

Go to cyro, or talk to any end game guild. All are pissed. Move outside your bubble.

mikemacon

Yawn.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

Since there is already a thread discussing the combat changes that are on PTS, we are going to go ahead and close this discussion. Please keep in mind that our goal in moderating our forums is not to silence anyone's feedback, but to ensure that discussion remains civil and constructive. Please continue the discussion here.

Thank you for your understanding