PTS Feedback (Heavily discussed among friends, Streamers/Youtubers, and the general community)

scottii

This conversation is simple to understand.

Initial input: The community wants improved performance and fixes on bugs that have been around for several months (possible years).
Response: ZOS creates a concept for radical changes to light/heavy attacks.

Conclusion. Our requests were not heard, rather resources were devoted to change the base mechanics of the game.

Mods, before you lock this thread, do note this is "constructive" feedback. All ZOS has to do is take notes and understand the most common request from the community, and then finally fill that request.

price101610

Lol, they don’t wanna manage this game anymore. Trying to kill it. Or make us all questers for new chapter.

JumpmanLane

There’s less and less of a reason to even play this game any more. Combat is BROKEN, on all platforms. Update 25 effectively BROKE high level endgame (PvP, vTrials, vDungeons).

Proposing further changes to a very basic part of the game (combat, COMBAT!) with the state of the game currently is an INSULT...to ME, as a paying customer.

The very IDEA that THOUGHT is being given to LA/HA changes and no evidence of any meaningful work is being done on how the game performs is disheartening.

scottii

JumpmanLane wrote: »

There’s less and less of a reason to even play this game any more. Combat is BROKEN, on all platforms. Update 25 effectively BROKE high level endgame (PvP, vTrials, vDungeons).

Proposing further changes to a very basic part of the game (combat, COMBAT!) with the state of the game currently is an INSULT...to ME, as a paying customer.

The very IDEA that THOUGHT is being given to LA/HA changes and no evidence of any meaningful work is being done on how the game performs is disheartening.

Every time we try to remind the developers, mods remove our posts. I mean how many players does it take to effectively communicate a message?

JumpmanLane

scottii wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

There’s less and less of a reason to even play this game any more. Combat is BROKEN, on all platforms. Update 25 effectively BROKE high level endgame (PvP, vTrials, vDungeons).

Proposing further changes to a very basic part of the game (combat, COMBAT!) with the state of the game currently is an INSULT...to ME, as a paying customer.

The very IDEA that THOUGHT is being given to LA/HA changes and no evidence of any meaningful work is being done on how the game performs is disheartening.

Every time we try to remind the developers, mods remove our posts. I mean how many players does it take to effectively communicate a message?

They don’t care for the message. Easily enough to ignore a message once it’s buried under a mound of outfit and mount threads lol.

ShawnLaRock

Before you know it - Chromium’ll be commonplace; gear sets will be implemented to blanket-fill a meme niche; and maybe there will be a reason that I stashed one of every. set. piece. I have ever found. so far.

But probably not. Durr.

S.

joseayalac

The change sounds great and is long overdue!

Also have you considered that the people that work on performance aren't the same that the ones that work on gameplay? They're still addressing performance.

Paidkilla

So we talking about the 10 commenters on Dottz video, the 5 friends you have on discord, or the 30 or so angry people on these forums? Cause i am sure 85% of the eso community has not discussed this. Why do people on the forums always act like they are the voice of ESO? lol

Vaoh

Paidkilla wrote: »

So we talking about the 10 commenters on Dottz video, the 5 friends you have on discord, or the 30 or so angry people on these forums? Cause i am sure 85% of the eso community has not discussed this. Why do people on the forums always act like they are the voice of ESO? lol

If having most of the major eso content creators make vids hating the changes, most players across the active eso discords hating the changes, the majority of forum players hating the changes, and every player ingame who has read about it in my guilds (a lot of endgame players both PVE and PvP, hundreds) hating the changes isn’t enough.... well idk what metric you want to use. Every avenue of feedback is overwhelming negative for these patch notes.

But hey at least “you’re sure” that 85% of the eso community hasn’t discussed it. Lol

Jjitsuboy98

Paidkilla wrote: »

So we talking about the 10 commenters on Dottz video, the 5 friends you have on discord, or the 30 or so angry people on these forums? Cause i am sure 85% of the eso community has not discussed this. Why do people on the forums always act like they are the voice of ESO? lol

Are you loling at ur own bad post? Post something constructive because yes you are indeed among the minority if you like these changes.

Jjitsuboy98

We want these creators to fix the performance issues. I guess as a group if everything pushes through we need to move on. Sad times.

Paidkilla

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

Paidkilla wrote: »

So we talking about the 10 commenters on Dottz video, the 5 friends you have on discord, or the 30 or so angry people on these forums? Cause i am sure 85% of the eso community has not discussed this. Why do people on the forums always act like they are the voice of ESO? lol

Are you loling at ur own bad post? Post something constructive because yes you are indeed among the minority of you like these changes.

I am the minority? [Snip]. I talk to alot of players in game, none of them visit or post on these forums. Silent Majority will always gank the loudest mouth.

[Edited for baiting]

Jjitsuboy98

Paidkilla wrote: »

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

Paidkilla wrote: »

So we talking about the 10 commenters on Dottz video, the 5 friends you have on discord, or the 30 or so angry people on these forums? Cause i am sure 85% of the eso community has not discussed this. Why do people on the forums always act like they are the voice of ESO? lol

Are you loling at ur own bad post? Post something constructive because yes you are indeed among the minority of you like these changes.

I am the minority? [Snip]. I talk to alot of players in game, none of them visit or post on these forums. Silent Majority will always gank the loudest mouth.
[Edited for baiting]

You role players always get what you want.

Paidkilla

I was pvping in this game before you probably even knew this game was out Bud. I am a full time pvper, i do nothing else. But im not gonna support something selfishly because it may effect my dps, my build, or what i want. I think the changes will be great for the game it opens up tons of possibilities where i don't have to focus on dumb la weaving. Good pvpers will adapt, this is nothing, the ones that depend on stuff like this, guys like you, show fear and throw tantrums on the forums.

Jjitsuboy98

Paidkilla wrote: »

I was pvping in this game before you probably even knew this game was out Bud. I am a full time pvper, i do nothing else. But im not gonna support something selfishly because it may effect my dps, my build, or what i want. I think the changes will be great for the game it opens up tons of possibilities where i don't have to focus on dumb la weaving. Good pvpers will adapt, this is nothing, the ones that depend on stuff like this, guys like you, show fear and throw tantrums on the forums.

No disrespect but I want performance improvements before changes. I can’t play the game hardly as a Pvper. These changes are not necessary. No nerfs, buffs, or changes should happen until this broken mess in cyrodil is fixed

scottii

Paidkilla wrote: »

So we talking about the 10 commenters on Dottz video, the 5 friends you have on discord, or the 30 or so angry people on these forums? Cause i am sure 85% of the eso community has not discussed this. Why do people on the forums always act like they are the voice of ESO? lol

the evidence has been on these forums for almost one year. there is even more via social media. check almost all streamers right now (twitch and youtube) regarding their thoughts on these changes.

heck, two years ago, I was in a pvp guild of roughly 300 active players. out of this many players, there's maybe 2 of us that still plays ESO. this is a really bad churn rate.

Paidkilla

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

Paidkilla wrote: »

I was pvping in this game before you probably even knew this game was out Bud. I am a full time pvper, i do nothing else. But im not gonna support something selfishly because it may effect my dps, my build, or what i want. I think the changes will be great for the game it opens up tons of possibilities where i don't have to focus on dumb la weaving. Good pvpers will adapt, this is nothing, the ones that depend on stuff like this, guys like you, show fear and throw tantrums on the forums.

No disrespect but I want performance improvements before changes. I can’t play the game hardly as a Pvper. These changes are not necessary. No nerfs, buffs, or changes should happen until this broken mess in cyrodil is fixed

These changes are not even concrete, it's also possible different people work on performance, hence them saying at the beggining of their post that is still top priority over everything.

Jjitsuboy98

Paidkilla wrote: »

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

Paidkilla wrote: »

I was pvping in this game before you probably even knew this game was out Bud. I am a full time pvper, i do nothing else. But im not gonna support something selfishly because it may effect my dps, my build, or what i want. I think the changes will be great for the game it opens up tons of possibilities where i don't have to focus on dumb la weaving. Good pvpers will adapt, this is nothing, the ones that depend on stuff like this, guys like you, show fear and throw tantrums on the forums.

No disrespect but I want performance improvements before changes. I can’t play the game hardly as a Pvper. These changes are not necessary. No nerfs, buffs, or changes should happen until this broken mess in cyrodil is fixed

These changes are not even concrete, it's also possible different people work on performance, hence them saying at the beggining of their post that is still top priority over everything.

And you believe them? It’s got worse and worse.

scottii

and I quote myself again from the OP.


resources were devoted to change the base mechanics of the game

Paidkilla

And there's 10 times that amount of new players that have picked up the game if you follow it on social media.

Kadoin

Paidkilla wrote: »

So we talking about the 10 commenters on Dottz video, the 5 friends you have on discord, or the 30 or so angry people on these forums? Cause i am sure 85% of the eso community has not discussed this. Why do people on the forums always act like they are the voice of ESO? lol

Performance is the most important thing. Imagine having to play with someone that can't perform, you would look for someone else wouldn't you (or provide feedback, which is what players are doing but it goes ignored)? Now apply that same exact knowledge to the game in its current state...

Paidkilla

Give it time to be tested instead of getting rash and crazy, been alot of changes people flipped out about in the past that ended up being great and people felt foolish for their quick response. Lets see where this goes and what builds and rotations people come up with, it may be bad. It also may end up being awesome.

scottii

Paidkilla wrote: »

And there's 10 times that amount of new players that have picked up the game if you follow it on social media.

in marketing you value two metrics for growth. one is retention, or customers who keep coming back. the other is active installs after a certain period of time - this can be weeks or months depending on the product.

the worst metric to follow is new installs because this does not imply long term customers.

also an important metric is churn rate, or customers lost.

based on the data that we know as a community, we can agree that ESO's churn rate has steadily increased over time.

scottii

Paidkilla wrote: »

Give it time to be tested instead of getting rash and crazy, been alot of changes people flipped out about in the past that ended up being great and people felt foolish for their quick response. Lets see where this goes and what builds and rotations people come up with, it may be bad. It also may end up being awesome.

and the issues from several months, possibly a year old, that have not been resolved? these are the concerns many of us are deeply worried about.

Jjitsuboy98

Paidkilla wrote: »

Give it time to be tested instead of getting rash and crazy, been alot of changes people flipped out about in the past that ended up being great and people felt foolish for their quick response. Lets see where this goes and what builds and rotations people come up with, it may be bad. It also may end up being awesome.

Every new patch note is forum post rage. If they said we are skipping this new update and applying performance fixes then I think there would be more support.

Paidkilla

scottii wrote: »

Paidkilla wrote: »

And there's 10 times that amount of new players that have picked up the game if you follow it on social media.

in marketing you value two metrics for growth. one is retention, or customers who keep coming back. the other is active installs after a certain period of time - this can be weeks or months depending on the product.

the worst metric to follow is new installs because this does not imply long term customers.

also an important metric is churn rate, or customers lost.

based on the data that we know as a community, we can agree that ESO's churn rate has steadily increased over time.

You have a point, but today i was researching some niche builds, it was taking me to forum posts from 2014 to current, you know how many im quitting, were all leaving, eso is dead posts i saw over the years from changes in the game or gear sets? It was like a broken record of today, and well... here we are.

Jjitsuboy98

Paidkilla wrote: »

scottii wrote: »

Paidkilla wrote: »

And there's 10 times that amount of new players that have picked up the game if you follow it on social media.

in marketing you value two metrics for growth. one is retention, or customers who keep coming back. the other is active installs after a certain period of time - this can be weeks or months depending on the product.

the worst metric to follow is new installs because this does not imply long term customers.

also an important metric is churn rate, or customers lost.

based on the data that we know as a community, we can agree that ESO's churn rate has steadily increased over time.

You have a point, but today i was researching some niche builds, it was taking me to forum posts from 2014 to current, you know how many im quitting, were all leaving, eso is dead posts i saw over the years from changes in the game or gear sets? It was like a broken record of today, and well... here we are.

And yet they pay sypher to host their New Years releases. A guy that only PVPed and was upset about lack of performance and PVP attention a long time ago. They pay him because he has a ton of followers now. He tried to play again but the lag and latency was just to much.

CleymenZero

scottii wrote: »

This conversation is simple to understand.

Initial input: The community wants improved performance and fixes on bugs that have been around for several months (possible years).
Response: ZOS creates a concept for radical changes to light/heavy attacks.

Conclusion. Our requests were not heard, rather resources were devoted to change the base mechanics of the game.

Mods, before you lock this thread, do note this is "constructive" feedback. All ZOS has to do is take notes and understand the most common request from the community, and then finally fill that request.

You guys seem to miss something that becomes painfully obvious once you look at the big picture.

Have you guys ever considered that performance would've been fixed by now if they could've? I really think that performance WILL NEVER IMPROVE with the current state of the game.

Think for a bit, think about all the changes that were put in place over the last years, a bunch of them have been directed at alleviating server load and that's again what they're trying to do with these changes. They discuss the high APM (actions per minute) being a source of DPS gap for example but in reality, the changes are a way to slow down the pace of combat input.

It has always been an issue with APM. Remember the block spam kicking you to the login screen? Have you ever swapped setups really fast with Dressing Room and got kicked to login screen? These are ways the server deals with overwhelming inputs. 1 player doing this is not an issue but any doing it is so that's why you get kicked.

PvP is mostly fine in BGs bar the kinda frequent desync but overland, the moment there are 2 Zergs fighting, people get dc'd. It's an issue with too many inputs at once.

Think about it, if you weave properly, your input is about 2 per second but then, as you perform you rotation on a raid boss for example, the server will eventually have to do dozens of calculations per second per player in a raid.

For a magicka, you got your wall ticking, your orb ticking twice per second, your spammable your class and non-class dots, the effects of some of your abilities (burning etc), the enchant proccing and the list goes on. That's for 1 player but there are 8 dps in that raid plus the healer and its many targets getting healed, the damage intake all this going through formulas taking into account offensive and defensive stats. It's a massive amount of calculations being made. This addictive fast-paced gameplay is the very thing that is degrading performance and I don't think any server could handle it fluidly.

If all it took to fix performance was to "stop running the game on potato servers" and invest in better gear, it would've been done by now.

You think they would risk messing with the code so much if all it took was better servers? You think they'd bother stripping 30gb out of the game and accidentally removing textures in Wrothgar if all they had to do was to get better servers?

I know some of the stuff mentioned in my post doesn't concern you but it's stuff I've read in the forums countless times.

The reality is, as the game is played now, there will never really be performance improvement. They need to rework how it is played to improve the performance.

Paidkilla

Alot of feedback is saying these changes might be revolved around slowing the game down. It could be one of few options they have to fix the performance issue. This may be directly tied to actually fixing the performance if you read some of the debates and research going on in other threads. Funny you bring up Sypher, me and my buddies use to duel this guy in dc area of cyro before he was even a name, right at release. He was the founder of the cheese Dk resto staff build at that time and players could not understand his playstyle. Ol Sypher he loved the cheese. Screaming about nbs spamming gap closer on him when all he did was spam streak on his sorc. The godfather of reflect spam.

Jjitsuboy98

Paidkilla wrote: »

Alot of feedback is saying these changes might be revolved around slowing the game down. It could be one of few options they have to fix the performance issue. This may be directly tied to actually fixing the performance if you read some of the debates and research going on in other threads. Funny you bring up Sypher, me and my buddies use to duel this guy in dc area of cyro before he was even a name, right at release. He was the founder of the cheese Dk resto staff build at that time and players could not understand his playstyle. Ol Sypher he loved the cheese.

Didn’t hide his builds though. Most went straight to YouTube for others to get them nerfed.

Paidkilla

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

Paidkilla wrote: »

Alot of feedback is saying these changes might be revolved around slowing the game down. It could be one of few options they have to fix the performance issue. This may be directly tied to actually fixing the performance if you read some of the debates and research going on in other threads. Funny you bring up Sypher, me and my buddies use to duel this guy in dc area of cyro before he was even a name, right at release. He was the founder of the cheese Dk resto staff build at that time and players could not understand his playstyle. Ol Sypher he loved the cheese.

Didn’t hide his builds though. Most went straight to YouTube for others to get them nerfed.

Your not lying, and boy did they abuse them. I remember his dad was mad he gave up college to be a streamer, best thing he did was leave eso, i hear he has like thousands of followers on fortnite or apex or whatever.