are there live people inside the training dummies in cyrodiil when you do the training mission?

Wolf_Eye

Bucky_13 wrote: »

As others have said, pick up the quest and then you can skip the tutorial to complete the quest for some AP and at least unlock Rapid Maneuver. No idea on how to unlock resto without killing anything, but really curious if there's a way.

And a pure pacifist character can be fairly easy if you do it mainly with crafting. Get enough skill points from skyshards for enchanting & alchemy to do master writs, pop a XP scroll and turn them in when you want to gain a bunch of XP. Then unlock and do the daily crafting writs for a smaller but steady stream of XP.

Exploring places for the first time also gives you some xp. And considering the sheer amount of places there are to discover, this can quickly add up. The only downside is dodging mobs without attacking them.

Dagoth_Rac

I think original poster is being too hard on themselves. Siege dummies counting as "kills" is clearly just a side-effect of real-world programming shortcuts. It is similar to how healing buffs can (or at least used to, I have not tried it lately) increase the repairs you do to keep walls. Keep walls are not secretly full of living people that you are healing. The developers just saw no reason to re-invent the wheel when the underlying mathematical algorithms for repairing a wall are so similar to healing a player.

If you are going to let the underlying nuts and bolts of the code impact your role-playing, you are going to find yourself in a lot of a sticky situations. Heck, I believe that "healing" in ESO is actual a form of "negative damage". Or maybe damage is a form of negative healing. Half glass empty/glass half full thing.

I would base these kind of no-kill decisions, or any kind of role-playing decisions, by how it makes sense it terms of the fantasy and the game world. Not how it affects coding decisions made by some person in Maryland 10 years ago. Pretend you really are living in Tamriel. You really are testing out siege equipment in Cyrodiil. Is tossing a boulder at a burlap sack draped over a log killing? Because from a role-playing point of view, that is what you did.

Bucky_13

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

Bucky_13 wrote: »

As others have said, pick up the quest and then you can skip the tutorial to complete the quest for some AP and at least unlock Rapid Maneuver. No idea on how to unlock resto without killing anything, but really curious if there's a way.

And a pure pacifist character can be fairly easy if you do it mainly with crafting. Get enough skill points from skyshards for enchanting & alchemy to do master writs, pop a XP scroll and turn them in when you want to gain a bunch of XP. Then unlock and do the daily crafting writs for a smaller but steady stream of XP.

Exploring places for the first time also gives you some xp. And considering the sheer amount of places there are to discover, this can quickly add up. The only downside is dodging mobs without attacking them.

If you're doing a pacifist run, you want to be a nightblade because of Cloak and Concealed Weapon. I played a few NB characters in the under 50 campaign a few years ago, which meant I didn't want too much xp, but I wanted lots of skill points. With a NB, that meant I avoided a lot of XP by not killing mobs. Later on I made a few alts crafters, so I farmed more skyshards. That went a lot faster on my NBs since they never had to bother with trash mobs. Exploration adds up, but it isn't that much xp I've found out. Master writs adds way more.

Craft a set of Night's Silence for full movement speed in sneak and you can pick up skyshards in most delves and public dungeons without ever killing any mobs as a NB, some you need to be lucky for and have another player kill the mobs. Get some jewelry and make it swift for even faster movement. Then at lvl 50/160cp, get a set of Darloc Brae as well and you can permacloak while moving fast. I'd assume vampire isn't an option for a pacifist run.

I might've talked myself into making a pure pacifist character next....

thissocalledflower

JKorr wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

L2Pissue wrote: »

is this a game breaking issue?

for me it is for this character it is

Out of curiosity, how on Nirn did you manage the tutorial? I know for sure the original opening you have to kill dremora to get out into the Wailing Prison. Plus the Child of Bones. I'm pretty sure the tutorials for the various chapters involve killing guards/slavers/dremora/something to complete them.

on alts you can just skip it.

thissocalledflower

Nestor wrote: »

Coatmagic wrote: »

Bah! This one forgot about the change...

@Coatmagic

Just kill a spider or crawler or other bug with the Resto Staff

yah i think this is what it comes down to but someone mentioned the precursor dummy doesnt count as a kill in the game also. i am yah so i guess i can kill a bug. not ideal. who doesn't want their home free of roaches.... ants i don't mind so much so long as they dont eat the wood... spiders are actually usefull.. those little millipedes could be poisonous after all.... maybe i'll go find a millipede..

newtinmpls

Hallothiel wrote: »

Ok, I am confused. You are playing an RPGMMO where the way to level up is killing things - in fact its the whole focus of the game really, and you are deliberately choosing to play a character that doesn’t kill?

The short and logical answer would be: Healer.

Sylvermynx

Well, as artificial restrictions go, this one's a doozy. Good luck to you @thissocalledflower - I'll be interested to see how you get along.

max_only wrote: »

If those dummies were a problem, even though you know rationally they aren’t real kills, my question is do you harvest butterflies or go fishing? A stricter no kill character wouldn’t even pull the wings off of wasps. .

Do things like that show up in the stats? I admit, I have no clue.... If the OP is only thinking about stats.... hmm.

thissocalledflower

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Well, as artificial restrictions go, this one's a doozy. Good luck to you @thissocalledflower - I'll be interested to see how you get along.

max_only wrote: »

If those dummies were a problem, even though you know rationally they aren’t real kills, my question is do you harvest butterflies or go fishing? A stricter no kill character wouldn’t even pull the wings off of wasps. .

Do things like that show up in the stats? I admit, I have no clue.... If the OP is only thinking about stats.... hmm.

Good question. There's certainly no achievement tied to how many bugs one kills unlike the dummies.... But how to test it to be sure?

So ya, it's two fold... there what you do and what you can say you did. It's one thing not to kill but if you have 5 kills on your achievment, it doesn't discern wheter or not they were target dummies

thissocalledflower

Ok so i just created a new nightblade for testing purposes and using the training sword i killed a snake. now under character this is a nature slayer achievement section there are sections for lizzard and bug type creatures. And while killing the snake with a training sword activated the 2h skill line, my nature slayer count remains at ZERO.

So why cant they do that for the target dummies? Why not use the same coding for the target dummies that they do for snakes? It give 0 confirmed kills AND activates the skill line @ZOS_GinaBruno ? PLease? Tarket dummies are not humanoid kills.

Next i'll try killing a snake with a resto staff... see how that goes? But really if snakes killed with training sword don't count as kills but a resto staff does i am gonna have some issue with that.


Ok so using the flame staff in the caroveneers box i killed a snake. Again nothing added to the nature slayer achievement and also gained the destro staff skill line.

So snakes dont count as lizard like or any other like creatures under that achievement and i couldnt find any achievement attached to it anywhere.


@RaddlemanNumber7 what are your thought about that?

Wolf_Eye

thissocalledflower wrote: »

Ok so i just created a new nightblade for testing purposes and using the training sword i killed a snake. now under character this is a nature slayer achievement section there are sections for lizzard and bug type creatures. And while killing the snake with a training sword activated the 2h skill line, my nature slayer count remains at ZERO.

So why cant they do that for the target dummies? Why not use the same coding for the target dummies that they do for snakes? It give 0 confirmed kills AND activates the skill line @ZOS_GinaBruno ? PLease? Tarket dummies are not humanoid kills.

Next i'll try killing a snake with a resto staff... see how that goes? But really if snakes killed with training sword don't count as kills but a resto staff does i am gonna have some issue with that.


Ok so using the flame staff in the caroveneers box i killed a snake. Again nothing added to the nature slayer achievement and also gained the destro staff skill line.

So snakes dont count as lizard like or any other like creatures under that achievement and i couldnt find any achievement attached to it anywhere.


@RaddlemanNumber7 what are your thought about that?

I think it's because those achievements are only for enemy monsters. Snakes are not aggressive. They do not attack you and so don't "count" as an enemy by the game.

I don't think they can change the dummies' coding because they based the coding off of NPC enemies. It's hard-coded for the game to recognize them as enemies, even if they never attack you.

SteveCampsOut

thissocalledflower wrote: »

Also tried to attack the dummies with resto staff but couldn't get a lock on them to attack....

Hippie4927 wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

nothing is reported in my combat metrics tab

You don't get 'kills' on training dummies. You must have accidently activated your resto staff but you didn't kill anything.

no. right after i fired the first weapon it flashed on my screen big as day gained restoration skill line.

If your had resto staff set as your active weapon while gaining XP it levels the skill line. Plain and simple!

Beardimus

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

Also tried to attack the dummies with resto staff but couldn't get a lock on them to attack....

Hippie4927 wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

nothing is reported in my combat metrics tab

You don't get 'kills' on training dummies. You must have accidently activated your resto staff but you didn't kill anything.

no. right after i fired the first weapon it flashed on my screen big as day gained restoration skill line.

If your had resto staff set as your active weapon while gaining XP it levels the skill line. Plain and simple!

That would be my thought too. It's an XP thing, but I dont know the mechanics to be certain.

Same way repairing a wall counts as 'healing'

I wouldn't worry about it. It's a coding thing rather than it breaking your RP, no one but you will ever see that kill count and you know it's a dummy. That counter is in real life as opposed to your characters world.

I'd be disappointed if ZOS redirected effort to look at this considering PC update is on fire and we have lag etc in Cyrodill across all platforms.

Gd luck tho

RaddlemanNumber7

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

Also tried to attack the dummies with resto staff but couldn't get a lock on them to attack....

Hippie4927 wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

nothing is reported in my combat metrics tab

You don't get 'kills' on training dummies. You must have accidently activated your resto staff but you didn't kill anything.

no. right after i fired the first weapon it flashed on my screen big as day gained restoration skill line.

If your had resto staff set as your active weapon while gaining XP it levels the skill line. Plain and simple!

I tested that. You do indeed gain xp in Resto Staff, but without a kill the skill line never appears in the skill dialogue. So, you can't put any skill points into active or passive skills for the Resto Staff.

thissocalledflower

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

Also tried to attack the dummies with resto staff but couldn't get a lock on them to attack....

Hippie4927 wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

nothing is reported in my combat metrics tab

You don't get 'kills' on training dummies. You must have accidently activated your resto staff but you didn't kill anything.

no. right after i fired the first weapon it flashed on my screen big as day gained restoration skill line.

If your had resto staff set as your active weapon while gaining XP it levels the skill line. Plain and simple!

I tested that. You do indeed gain xp in Resto Staff, but without a kill the skill line never appears in the skill dialogue. So, you can't put any skill points into active or passive skills for the Resto Staff.

So we are left with bugs, frogs and snakes to activate the skill line wihtout incurring a kill count to prove our no kill status enlieu of target dummies that do in fact count as kills. crazy making.

At least when summerset was the starting point everything was happening insdie your toons head and not anything that happened in the actual world but i bet anything killed there went on the kill count too.....

Chaos2088

We are the vestige we have no soul (for the most part) Kill Kill Kill!!! -eye twitch-

RaddlemanNumber7

thissocalledflower wrote: »

Ok so i just created a new nightblade for testing purposes and using the training sword i killed a snake. now under character this is a nature slayer achievement section there are sections for lizzard and bug type creatures. And while killing the snake with a training sword activated the 2h skill line, my nature slayer count remains at ZERO.

So why cant they do that for the target dummies? Why not use the same coding for the target dummies that they do for snakes? It give 0 confirmed kills AND activates the skill line @ZOS_GinaBruno ? PLease? Tarket dummies are not humanoid kills.

Next i'll try killing a snake with a resto staff... see how that goes? But really if snakes killed with training sword don't count as kills but a resto staff does i am gonna have some issue with that.


Ok so using the flame staff in the caroveneers box i killed a snake. Again nothing added to the nature slayer achievement and also gained the destro staff skill line.

So snakes dont count as lizard like or any other like creatures under that achievement and i couldnt find any achievement attached to it anywhere.


@RaddlemanNumber7 what are your thought about that?

In other TES games I used the kill stats as the ultimate test and validation of my efforts. It was mainly a problem solving exercise for me. I did do things like lure draugr into environmental traps to kill them.

But having said that, it seems wrong to just go out and kill a random little critter that is no harm to anyone.

I would be OK killing a rat that was in someone's food though. And it works! Just killed a rat that was in amongst a stack of fruit baskets and grain sacks, got my Resto Staff skill line and kill stats still at zero. And it feels OK, especially for a Khajiit.

But, the choice is yours, of course.

Coppes

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

Ok so i just created a new nightblade for testing purposes and using the training sword i killed a snake. now under character this is a nature slayer achievement section there are sections for lizzard and bug type creatures. And while killing the snake with a training sword activated the 2h skill line, my nature slayer count remains at ZERO.

So why cant they do that for the target dummies? Why not use the same coding for the target dummies that they do for snakes? It give 0 confirmed kills AND activates the skill line @ZOS_GinaBruno ? PLease? Tarket dummies are not humanoid kills.

Next i'll try killing a snake with a resto staff... see how that goes? But really if snakes killed with training sword don't count as kills but a resto staff does i am gonna have some issue with that.


Ok so using the flame staff in the caroveneers box i killed a snake. Again nothing added to the nature slayer achievement and also gained the destro staff skill line.

So snakes dont count as lizard like or any other like creatures under that achievement and i couldnt find any achievement attached to it anywhere.


@RaddlemanNumber7 what are your thought about that?

In other TES games I used the kill stats as the ultimate test and validation of my efforts. It was mainly a problem solving exercise for me. I did do things like lure draugr into environmental traps to kill them.

But having said that, it seems wrong to just go out and kill a random little critter that is no harm to anyone.

I would be OK killing a rat that was in someone's food though. And it works! Just killed a rat that was in amongst a stack of fruit baskets and grain sacks, got my Resto Staff skill line and kill stats still at zero. And it feels OK, especially for a Khajiit.

But, the choice is yours, of course.

That rat was trying to feed it’s family, you monster.

A true pacifist would try to relocate it!

Raisin

Spaceroamer wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

Ok so i just created a new nightblade for testing purposes and using the training sword i killed a snake. now under character this is a nature slayer achievement section there are sections for lizzard and bug type creatures. And while killing the snake with a training sword activated the 2h skill line, my nature slayer count remains at ZERO.

So why cant they do that for the target dummies? Why not use the same coding for the target dummies that they do for snakes? It give 0 confirmed kills AND activates the skill line @ZOS_GinaBruno ? PLease? Tarket dummies are not humanoid kills.

Next i'll try killing a snake with a resto staff... see how that goes? But really if snakes killed with training sword don't count as kills but a resto staff does i am gonna have some issue with that.


Ok so using the flame staff in the caroveneers box i killed a snake. Again nothing added to the nature slayer achievement and also gained the destro staff skill line.

So snakes dont count as lizard like or any other like creatures under that achievement and i couldnt find any achievement attached to it anywhere.


@RaddlemanNumber7 what are your thought about that?

In other TES games I used the kill stats as the ultimate test and validation of my efforts. It was mainly a problem solving exercise for me. I did do things like lure draugr into environmental traps to kill them.

But having said that, it seems wrong to just go out and kill a random little critter that is no harm to anyone.

I would be OK killing a rat that was in someone's food though. And it works! Just killed a rat that was in amongst a stack of fruit baskets and grain sacks, got my Resto Staff skill line and kill stats still at zero. And it feels OK, especially for a Khajiit.

But, the choice is yours, of course.

That rat was trying to feed it’s family, you monster.

A true pacifist would try to relocate it!

His name was Remy and he was on official restaurant business. Who is anyone to assume he wasn't gonna pay?!

DelosTheta

According to my favorite skull, if you make a snowman right, it will develop a tiny, sad soul.

Same with training dummies?

RaddlemanNumber7

Spaceroamer wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

Ok so i just created a new nightblade for testing purposes and using the training sword i killed a snake. now under character this is a nature slayer achievement section there are sections for lizzard and bug type creatures. And while killing the snake with a training sword activated the 2h skill line, my nature slayer count remains at ZERO.

So why cant they do that for the target dummies? Why not use the same coding for the target dummies that they do for snakes? It give 0 confirmed kills AND activates the skill line @ZOS_GinaBruno ? PLease? Tarket dummies are not humanoid kills.

Next i'll try killing a snake with a resto staff... see how that goes? But really if snakes killed with training sword don't count as kills but a resto staff does i am gonna have some issue with that.


Ok so using the flame staff in the caroveneers box i killed a snake. Again nothing added to the nature slayer achievement and also gained the destro staff skill line.

So snakes dont count as lizard like or any other like creatures under that achievement and i couldnt find any achievement attached to it anywhere.


@RaddlemanNumber7 what are your thought about that?

In other TES games I used the kill stats as the ultimate test and validation of my efforts. It was mainly a problem solving exercise for me. I did do things like lure draugr into environmental traps to kill them.

But having said that, it seems wrong to just go out and kill a random little critter that is no harm to anyone.

I would be OK killing a rat that was in someone's food though. And it works! Just killed a rat that was in amongst a stack of fruit baskets and grain sacks, got my Resto Staff skill line and kill stats still at zero. And it feels OK, especially for a Khajiit.

But, the choice is yours, of course.

That rat was trying to feed it’s family, you monster.

A true pacifist would try to relocate it!

...and also treated it with essential oils no doubt in order to stop it spreading leptospirosis, hantavirus, bubonic plague, salmonella, typhus and a whole host of internal and external parasites among the population of Davons Watch.

Number_51

While Nightblade is the obvious choice for a pacifist play-through, I will say I had a lot of fun doing it on a Sorcerer. With potions, gear, and legerdemain skills you should be OK with with the sneaking and hiding. Sorcerer skills provide a lot of opportunity for what I called "stun and run" play.

I did play with the thought that my character would not kill anything, including critters, butterflies, torchbugs, etc. I played my pacifist back when all the skill lines were unlocked from the start though, so not sure how I would have dealt with unlocking whatever skill lines. It wouldn't have really mattered to me though since I refused to even equip a weapon of any sort.

Raudgrani

What could you possibly be doing in Cyrodiil, if you don't intend to kill anything? Heal? Yeah, wearing what? 2 recovery sets doing zero healing? Heavy attacking to recover magicka, is pretty essential for a healer - and to gain the Major Mending buff as well. I easily fill a 40 players bounty quest on a healer over a normal evening, on a healer. Because I weave heavy attacks for Major Mending and magicka restore pretty much all the time on a healer. Even if I don't really try to get kills (except when I see someone on really low health), I get dozens just from HA with resto staff. It's pretty much unavoidable, if you run a somewhat viable build for solid heals.

EDIT: Spelling

xWarbrain

Just think of the target dummy kill as "Hey man, you really killed it out there on that test dummy."

BoraxFlux

Raudgrani wrote: »

What could you possibly be doing in Cyrodiil, if you don't intend to kill anything? Heal? Yeah, wearing what? 2 recovery sets doing zero healing? Heavy attacking to recover magicka, is pretty essential for a healer - and to gain the Major Mending buff as well. I easily fill a 40 players bounty quest on a healer over a normal evening, on a healer. Because I weave heavy attacks for Major Mending and magicka restore pretty much all the time on a healer. Even if I don't really try to get kills (except when I see someone on really low health), I get dozens just from HA with resto staff. It's pretty much unavoidable, if you run a somewhat viable build for solid heals.

EDIT: Spelling

The introduction quest is worth it, It gives 2 skillpoints and access to the alliance skill lines, if I'm not mistaken Rapid Maneuver is unlocked.
Introduction quest can be skipped by talking to the general, that will give you the same rewards I believe.

You can catch fish, find gear, crawl trough delves,finding Skyshards, something like that. Especially those Skyshards behind the scroll-gates.
Maybe even get AP from resources and keep attacks and defence without killing a single soul? Not sure though.

Bucky_13

Raudgrani wrote: »

What could you possibly be doing in Cyrodiil, if you don't intend to kill anything? Heal? Yeah, wearing what? 2 recovery sets doing zero healing? Heavy attacking to recover magicka, is pretty essential for a healer - and to gain the Major Mending buff as well. I easily fill a 40 players bounty quest on a healer over a normal evening, on a healer. Because I weave heavy attacks for Major Mending and magicka restore pretty much all the time on a healer. Even if I don't really try to get kills (except when I see someone on really low health), I get dozens just from HA with resto staff. It's pretty much unavoidable, if you run a somewhat viable build for solid heals.

EDIT: Spelling

You could in theory get to Grand Overlord without ever killing anything, though it'd take ages. First thing, you're the mason and woodworker of your faction. If a wall or door needs repairs, you're the person for it. A LOT of AP can be gained from defense ticks by simply repairing walls and doors. You can scout keeps and call out incoming attacks, a very pacifist thing that other players who just want to fight will appreciate, especially when they can port to the keep to defend it. You can also make yourself useful by putting up Forward Camps and resurrect other players, both are things that can turn a battle around for your alliance but doesn't involve any violent actions on your part.

For attacks, you can put up camps, ress players, scout and call incs to help out, and then once the guards are dead, help flipping the flags.Then repair walls and doors once it's captured. Burning camps could probably also be considered a pacifist action since you're not actively trying to kill someone, you just deny them the chance to resurrect. Might be good to avoid sieges tho since you could accidentally hit an enemy player, rams should be fine though since AFAIK they can't damage players.

You can do all of that as a solo pacifist player, without getting credit for any kills in either the achievements tab or in quests and still get a respectable amount of AP AND be a useful member of your faction.

EDIT: spelling

xxthir13enxx

Heh this reminds me of the beginning of the
tool song

And the angel of the lord came unto me
Snatching me up from my place of slumber
And took me on high and higher still
Until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself
And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own Midwest
And as we descended cries of impending doom rose from the soil
One thousand nay a million voices full of fear
And terror possessed me then
And I begged Angel of the Lord what are these tortured screams?
And the angel said unto me
These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!
You see, Reverend Maynard
Tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust
And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat
Like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared
"Hear me now, I have seen the light!
They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul!
Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!
Can I get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you Jesus

TequilaFire

I miss the days when you could fill soul gems off the siege dummies.
They took away their souls!

Veinblood1965

What would be even more amazing is if there was one Cyrodiil post (I found one but it took hours of grinding with search) where the forum mods didn't have to remove or edit posts for baiting, being rude or non-constructive. A simple fix would be for the forum mods to be able to take your toon and place it IN the dummy's of anyone they have to censor, and you cannot play another toon until you receive 10 million damage. You don't actually die you just get to leave after that mark is hit.

max_only

Next time just skip the Cyrodiil intro quest and you still get the skill points. It’s only lvl 11.

Linaleah

thissocalledflower wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

Also tried to attack the dummies with resto staff but couldn't get a lock on them to attack....

Hippie4927 wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

nothing is reported in my combat metrics tab

You don't get 'kills' on training dummies. You must have accidently activated your resto staff but you didn't kill anything.

no. right after i fired the first weapon it flashed on my screen big as day gained restoration skill line.

If your had resto staff set as your active weapon while gaining XP it levels the skill line. Plain and simple!

I tested that. You do indeed gain xp in Resto Staff, but without a kill the skill line never appears in the skill dialogue. So, you can't put any skill points into active or passive skills for the Resto Staff.

So we are left with bugs, frogs and snakes to activate the skill line wihtout incurring a kill count to prove our no kill status enlieu of target dummies that do in fact count as kills. crazy making.

At least when summerset was the starting point everything was happening insdie your toons head and not anything that happened in the actual world but i bet anything killed there went on the kill count too.....

I think part of it could be because dummies are meant to be attacked repeatedly and have an actual healthpool you need to chew through. while critters have like i don't know.. 1 hit point? looking at the wrong - one shots them. I'm guessing this is something that makes programming different.

personaly, i wouldn't worry too much about achievement pane, but personaly if I were doing something like what you are attempting, it would be for purely roleplay purposes, so i would ignore achievements in general. but... if critters work, then critters work O_O coding is weird somethings.