are there live people inside the training dummies in cyrodiil when you do the training mission?

thissocalledflower

Spaceroamer wrote: »

What’s the point in playing if your not killing anything?

If you’re healing someone then you’re complicit in their act of killing. Which is why companion kills count as your kills in basically every game.

Unless you’re just staying in towns, chatting, or exploring constantly in combat then the only thing you can really do is a no thieving run.

Why do you need to know what i'm doing? If you dont like the way i play my game that i paid for then by all means go play your game that you paid for the way that suits you best.

thissocalledflower

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

@RaddlemanNumber7 have you ever found the book to activate your resto staff on any other atttempt? I fell like i want to start over since those dummies count as kills.


I just feel like this level 11 toon has been ruined by this mechanic with the target dummies. I want delete this one just yet but i am starting over with a new toon and avoiding the seige weapon training. 5 target dummies is 5 kills no matter how it might actually be, it counts as a kill.

There are no skill books for Resto Staff. I checked my oldest characters. Some of them have read all the skill books, except for a couple of the newer ones for Necro and Jewellery, and they haven't ever gained any Resto Staff levels.

SO how do you activate it then without killing when there are no books?

PrimusNephilim

StormeReigns wrote: »

Why... oh why do I have to be deaf would love to hear this! Hopefully new hearing-aid comes in this week (or at the latest next week) I so want to hear this!

Besides miss hearing my daughters (obviously) the subtle things like that, the ambient sounds, noises and voices... pyrite knows they are a wonderful thing!

I have massive hearing problems as well, good luck with the new hearing aids!

L2Pissue

is this a game breaking issue?

thissocalledflower

L2Pissue wrote: »

is this a game breaking issue?

for me it is for this character it is

Coatmagic

Have you tried grouping and healing those that are killing?
That is how you will be levelling after all.

I will reroll another passive char and feel it out. Was very put off after getting to thirty something not having directly killed anything then having that stupid dummy mess it up and not started another (in 3 years!)

PS: I did say there were people in the target dummies

Synaki

thissocalledflower wrote: »

SO how do you activate it then without killing when there are no books?

From the uesp: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Restoration_Staff
The Restoration Staff skill line is granted the first time you kill an enemy with a restoration staff equipped. You can increase your skill by engaging in combat with a restoration staff equipped, or by having Restoration Staff skills slotted. The more skills you have slotted, the faster your skill will increase. Argonians are naturally gifted with Restoration Staves, and will learn the ability more quickly than other races. In addition, you can earn free levels in the skill line by reading Skill Books, which may be found randomly on bookshelves anywhere. Unfortunately, there is only 1 skill book which increase Restoration Staff, as it appears the rest were set to Destruction Staff by mistake:

A Complaint to the Thalmor

JanTanhide

One of the strangest threads I've ever read. Good luck!

Varana

thissocalledflower wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

@RaddlemanNumber7 have you ever found the book to activate your resto staff on any other atttempt? I fell like i want to start over since those dummies count as kills.


I just feel like this level 11 toon has been ruined by this mechanic with the target dummies. I want delete this one just yet but i am starting over with a new toon and avoiding the seige weapon training. 5 target dummies is 5 kills no matter how it might actually be, it counts as a kill.

There are no skill books for Resto Staff. I checked my oldest characters. Some of them have read all the skill books, except for a couple of the newer ones for Necro and Jewellery, and they haven't ever gained any Resto Staff levels.

so there's no way to acivate it without killing something?

In fact, this might be your best shot at doing exactly that: You're activating the skill line without killing something.
You're not killing dummies (they're not alive), so you didn't kill anyone.
At the same time, due to how they are coded in the background, not-killing the dummies still activates the skill line.
This is only a problem if you accept the game's weird coding solutions as "reality". It's your choice to do that, of course; I for one would find it nonsensical from a roleplaying perspective, though.

Levianna

thissocalledflower wrote: »

If so, that aint right...


i mean i wanted to do the training mission to pick up the skill lines but then it gave me credit for a kill i think because it activated my restoration staff.

If the target dummies count as a kill in the game then i have to delete my character and start over as i am trying to do no killing and no theiving on this one.

@ZOS_GinaBruno somebody clarify this for me please....

Weĺl op, please explain me why then are you even training to get skills at the weapons and abilities that you later don't wanna use at npcs or players?
Even if its the part of your RP with that character with whom you act the peace lover who just finds fun in training battle skills that you really don't intend to use anywhere, your attitude toward it is discutabile, because the fact that ZoS counts that as a kill doesn't mean that you actually killed someone (npc or player), because you are aware of the fact that dummy is just a soul-less thing.
Also ZoS might seem to be count this as a kill, but what it really wants is to ensure that your weapons and skills are increasing in the power, what's the goal of the training, isn't it!

RaddlemanNumber7

Synaki wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

SO how do you activate it then without killing when there are no books?

From the uesp: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Restoration_Staff
The Restoration Staff skill line is granted the first time you kill an enemy with a restoration staff equipped. You can increase your skill by engaging in combat with a restoration staff equipped, or by having Restoration Staff skills slotted. The more skills you have slotted, the faster your skill will increase. Argonians are naturally gifted with Restoration Staves, and will learn the ability more quickly than other races. In addition, you can earn free levels in the skill line by reading Skill Books, which may be found randomly on bookshelves anywhere. Unfortunately, there is only 1 skill book which increase Restoration Staff, as it appears the rest were set to Destruction Staff by mistake:

A Complaint to the Thalmor

Just to check, I went to the Thalmor HQ in Woodharth and read "A Complaint to the Thalmor". It announced that I had discovered The Underroot delve, but it did not give my toon a Resto Staff level. The information on UESP appears to be out of date, assuming it was ever correct in the first place.

RaddlemanNumber7

thissocalledflower wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

@RaddlemanNumber7 have you ever found the book to activate your resto staff on any other atttempt? I fell like i want to start over since those dummies count as kills.


I just feel like this level 11 toon has been ruined by this mechanic with the target dummies. I want delete this one just yet but i am starting over with a new toon and avoiding the seige weapon training. 5 target dummies is 5 kills no matter how it might actually be, it counts as a kill.

There are no skill books for Resto Staff. I checked my oldest characters. Some of them have read all the skill books, except for a couple of the newer ones for Necro and Jewellery, and they haven't ever gained any Resto Staff levels.

SO how do you activate it then without killing when there are no books?

At this point I'm stuck. Run out of ideas.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

After removing a few rude and non-constructive posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank your for your understanding.

TigressCreed

Ahhhh if only this was the culmination of my problems I’d be the happiest duck on earth. This takes trolling to a whole other level. Lol “no kill” in a MMO. Let me know how far you make it in game

Danikat

I'm surprised that so many people haven't heard of this type of challenge before. Lots of players will set themselves restrictions or challenges for repeat runs through an RPG, to make it harder or just different. Admittedly 'no kills' is one of the more difficult challenges but it's not really any different to things like no deaths/hard mode where you have to delete the character if they die, stand-alone MMO characters who have to find or make everything they use (nothing bought from other players, nothing from your bank, nothing account-wide etc.) or themed runs like a hardcore RP bosmer who can't use anything made of wood or plant materials and can only eat meat.

I've heard of players doing no killing runs in Oblivion, Skyrim, World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2 and attempting it in one of the Dragon Age games but I think that was actually impossible. I'm sure it happens in other games as well and I just haven't heard about it.

Of course it's not easy to do and involves a lot of convoluted work-arounds or skipping certain quests, but that's usually the point. This type of challenge is aimed at people who have done the game the normal way and know they could do it again, often without even needing to think about it because it's easy for them now, so they're looking for ways to make it harder and to bring some novelty back into it. And no it might not work, finding out what's possible is also part of the fun.

January1171

thissocalledflower wrote: »

If so, that aint right...

Akatosh forbid a game built around killing and combat grants you kills when you kill a training dummy

That's fine if you want to do a no-kill/no-thieving run, play how you want. I'm doing a run right now where I unlock as few skill lines as possible because I think that's interesting. But you're trying to operate in a way that the game was not designed for- that involves working around in-game mechanics. There is no reason for ZOS to change how dummies work when it's a) a part of how they function at a base level, they're basically coded as npcs and b) you're playing in a nonstandard/niche way. ZOS's motto of "Play how you want" means that you can play a no-kill/no-thieving run, but that doesn't mean they have to design the game for that.

thissocalledflower

January1171 wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

If so, that aint right...

Akatosh forbid a game built around killing and combat grants you kills when you kill a training dummy

That's fine if you want to do a no-kill/no-thieving run, play how you want. I'm doing a run right now where I unlock as few skill lines as possible because I think that's interesting. But you're trying to operate in a way that the game was not designed for- that involves working around in-game mechanics. There is no reason for ZOS to change how dummies work when it's a) a part of how they function at a base level, they're basically coded as npcs and b) you're playing in a nonstandard/niche way. ZOS's motto of "Play how you want" means that you can play a no-kill/no-thieving run, but that doesn't mean they have to design the game for that.

well now you're just trying to make sense

thissocalledflower

Levianna wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

If so, that aint right...


i mean i wanted to do the training mission to pick up the skill lines but then it gave me credit for a kill i think because it activated my restoration staff.

If the target dummies count as a kill in the game then i have to delete my character and start over as i am trying to do no killing and no theiving on this one.

@ZOS_GinaBruno somebody clarify this for me please....

Weĺl op, please explain me why then are you even training to get skills at the weapons and abilities that you later don't wanna use at npcs or players?
Even if its the part of your RP with that character with whom you act the peace lover who just finds fun in training battle skills that you really don't intend to use anywhere, your attitude toward it is discutabile, because the fact that ZoS counts that as a kill doesn't mean that you actually killed someone (npc or player), because you are aware of the fact that dummy is just a soul-less thing.
Also ZoS might seem to be count this as a kill, but what it really wants is to ensure that your weapons and skills are increasing in the power, what's the goal of the training, isn't it!

no. it isnt. the support line has a reviving barrier morph that i want. that is all. level 6.

thissocalledflower

Varana wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

thissocalledflower wrote: »

@RaddlemanNumber7 have you ever found the book to activate your resto staff on any other atttempt? I fell like i want to start over since those dummies count as kills.


I just feel like this level 11 toon has been ruined by this mechanic with the target dummies. I want delete this one just yet but i am starting over with a new toon and avoiding the seige weapon training. 5 target dummies is 5 kills no matter how it might actually be, it counts as a kill.

There are no skill books for Resto Staff. I checked my oldest characters. Some of them have read all the skill books, except for a couple of the newer ones for Necro and Jewellery, and they haven't ever gained any Resto Staff levels.

so there's no way to acivate it without killing something?

In fact, this might be your best shot at doing exactly that: You're activating the skill line without killing something.
You're not killing dummies (they're not alive), so you didn't kill anyone.
At the same time, due to how they are coded in the background, not-killing the dummies still activates the skill line.
This is only a problem if you accept the game's weird coding solutions as "reality". It's your choice to do that, of course; I for one would find it nonsensical from a roleplaying perspective, though.

I would agree with you were it not for the fact that i am credited with 5 kills for attacking dummies with seige weapons.

Coppes

thissocalledflower wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

What’s the point in playing if your not killing anything?

If you’re healing someone then you’re complicit in their act of killing. Which is why companion kills count as your kills in basically every game.

Unless you’re just staying in towns, chatting, or exploring constantly in combat then the only thing you can really do is a no thieving run.

Why do you need to know what i'm doing? If you dont like the way i play my game that i paid for then by all means go play your game that you paid for the way that suits you best.

Well, it is a public forum, and you did make two topics on the subject.

I didn’t say you couldn’t play that way. I could care less. I’m just saying it, you’re going to go through a lot of complications.

Number_51

It's unfortunate that the dummies count as a kill. I did my lvl 1-50 pacifist play-through about three years ago after seeing this. I followed the same rule-set, except allowed myself armor (but not weapons), and xp bonuses. Fortunately that thread pointed out the same issue you've just run into, so I knew in advance.

There are a good number of Thieves Guild quests, including the daily job board and heist, you can use for leveling. In fact, as I recall, you can do the entire Thieves Guild line with one kill. I was a bit disappointed that you couldn't get into the al-Danobia treasure vaults without killing the ancient tomb guardian. Your companions and various notes notes throughout al-Danobia tomb mention a "password". If ZoS had actually implemented a password to avoid the fight it would have been fantastic.

Nestor

Its simply really. You get credit for destroying Siege Equipment. Why not use the same mechanism as other kills in the zone rather than throw an entire new scoring system at the problem.

VaranisArano

I've been guessing that the achievement for humanoid kills only matters because that's part of the proof that you've done a non-killing run?

If you just want the skill line, you should be able to skip the intro quest just by talking to your Grand Warlord. It might require you to have done it on at least one character before the skip option is available, but that's an easy workaround.

VaranisArano

Possible Solution:

While the regular skeleton training dummies do count as a humanoid kill, it appears that the Precursor training dummy does not. I double checked on two characters and it does not appear to trigger any of the killing achievements under General in the journal, not even Dwarven Constructs. It does grant the Restoration Staff skill line on "death".

On the other hand, a no-kill character may not appreciate his dialogue as you whale on him when he asks you to "Cease and desist."

Coatmagic

Bah! This one forgot about the change... healing others (even if you get enough xp to loot a mob) does not unlock the resto

So, unless we can find a book, better be a templar or a warden so you have at least class heals.

Alliance war can be unlocked and levelled without killing (don't train at the seige; go straight to the General then repair walls)

Hubby suggested making undead killable targets since they are no longer alive, so there's that also.

This one hopes her second attempt doesn't stumble >^^<

Good luck to you on your quest!

JKorr

thissocalledflower wrote: »

L2Pissue wrote: »

is this a game breaking issue?

for me it is for this character it is

Out of curiosity, how on Nirn did you manage the tutorial? I know for sure the original opening you have to kill dremora to get out into the Wailing Prison. Plus the Child of Bones. I'm pretty sure the tutorials for the various chapters involve killing guards/slavers/dremora/something to complete them.

Wolf_Eye

Danikat wrote: »

Yeah things like this are quite common in games - it's much, much easier for the developers to use an existing creature type as a template if it does everything they need from an object than to create a brand new, unique type of object which may only be used once in the entire game.

This is actually a fairly minor example, it gets much weirder behind the scenes - there's a famous example of a train in a Fallout game which is actually a person with a train shaped hat running below the tracks - because it was far easier to do that and get the same effect than build an entire new system to make a train object run along the track. And it's not just Bethesda/ZOS either, another well known example (and my personal favourite) is that a lot of objects which create effects in World of Warcraft are actually static models and their effects are produced by invisible bunnies casting spells. https://kotaku.com/the-invisible-bunnies-that-power-world-of-warcraft-1791576630

The important point in this context is that it's not even really the game's mechanics that these dummies are human, it's just a vestige of a development process. They are not intended in any way shape or form to be people - they're training dummies - basically a sack on a stick to show the new recruits where to point the dangerous end of their weapons. Attacking them is no more killing something than taking the flour out of a flour sack is killing the sack.

Lol. I'm pretty sure I've met statues in ESO that moved just as I exited a dungeon. Just go to Bahraha's Gloom, enter and exit, then watch as the statues move. They aren't enemies. XD I thought it was funny in a way. "I see you there, statue. I SAW you just move".

I believe the TES 5 Skyrim dummies also were based off of NPC templates....which is why they sometimes....well, wander. Hehehe.

I personally don't mind; it's clear to me that this is a resource saving way of creating statues and dummies and the like. Plus, it has comical side effects :P

But I can sympathize with the OP in the sense that this ALSO means that you cannot always know whether the game will count one such of these dummies as a "person" or not. So you end up with unwelcomed surprises like the one the OP experienced.

Now I think it would be up to the OP to determine whether they want to count it (I personally wouldn't, because a training dummy that behaves like a person is still not a person), or whether they should continue on. If the goal of the OP was to ensure that the restoration class line does NOT show up in spite of using a restoration staff, I would go ahead and start the challenge over with a new character because that did clearly happen. If the goal of the OP was to ensure that no deaths were counted in achievements by the game, then I would again start over because that clearly happened as well. But if it was just the case that they wanted to avoid killing actual enemies, then I would keep going because a training dummy isn't actually an enemy that will ever fight you.

Nestor

Coatmagic wrote: »

Bah! This one forgot about the change...

@Coatmagic

Just kill a spider or crawler or other bug with the Resto Staff

Bradyfjord

If you choose to start over, then next time skip the tutorial in cyrodiil. You can skip the tutorial in dialogue and still get the skill points.

Bucky_13

As others have said, pick up the quest and then you can skip the tutorial to complete the quest for some AP and at least unlock Rapid Maneuver. No idea on how to unlock resto without killing anything, but really curious if there's a way.

And a pure pacifist character can be fairly easy if you do it mainly with crafting. Get enough skill points from skyshards for enchanting & alchemy to do master writs, pop a XP scroll and turn them in when you want to gain a bunch of XP. Then unlock and do the daily crafting writs for a smaller but steady stream of XP.