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The HYPOCRISY and over all Confusing direction of weapon skill line. Magic vs stamina

  • Lughlongarm
    Lughlongarm
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    Looking over last year events, we are obviously at the start-middle of a transition period. I was expecting big changes for 2020 but I suspect that it will not be ready due to changes in priorities(performance issue and such) and the magnitude to the changes.

    Several major changes have already started to be implanted, and it will probably be an ongoing process.

    1)Standardization of skills.
    2)addition of stamina morphs for magcika skills, addition of skills that scale both with magicka and stamina.
    3)Addition of strong "Hybrid sets.

    What I take from the above directions and the developer's article about class identity(https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025) , is that they want classes to be less and less relied on "weapon skills" and make the class kits more open and accessible to different play styles(for both magicka and stamina).

    I think that Because Stamina builds originally have always been heavily relied on weapon skills, the devs couldn't just handicap it too hard without giving enough alternatives. So we are in this transition period, as Stamina builds are getting more options from class kits and not much is being taken away, while magicka builds are not getting new options and some its stronger weapon skills are being gutted(like clench).

    This is by the way, a huge shift in direction, ESO vision was always play what you want, but it was also like, 'you want to be a healer? grab a resto staff and be a healer"(they always gave the same example of the NB healer).

    Their new vision is: "our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines"

    The devs even hinted a "system" that could be driven force behind this kind of a direction shift.
    "We consider these changes to be stop-gap measures while the team evaluates more holistic improvements for each class in the future." (this is my take on it as I still fantasize a "spell crafting" system).

    And ofc, there is still the big mystery of the CP future and how it will be tied together with the ongoing vision.

    So ya, your confusion is somewhat justified, "the magicka VS stamina war" is not a real thing, claims of "BIAS" /"HYPOCRISY " and such are not part to a game design discussion.

    The off-balance change is annoying and creates many problems, but I have a feeling there is a bigger reason for this change which we are unaware of.

    Hum, that will be interesting if they follow this kind of thinking. From what you’ve said I’ve gathered Templar = Healer, DK = Tank, etc... and more traditional roles.

    If that’s the case some classes will be dead. Tankiness and healing is too important to be a class feature, damage has been fairly equalized because of pve, if some classes are left tankier or with better heals pvp will never be balanced.

    Hi, this is not what I said at all. If anything, I wrote the opposite.

    Their new vision is: "our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines"

    The all "templar healer, DK= tank, Sorc = AOE dps, NB= single target dps" thingi - If anything, was the original orientation of how the classes were at launch(as they were the optimal classes for those specific roles) The addition of new classes somewhat disrupted this structure, and the gaps between classes at specific roles is getting smaller, smaller. I remember the devs saying something on line of that they are aiming for ~5% difference s between classes.

    Not sure you noticed the trends but also healing is on the process of being equalized and standardize. Sorc having a huge mutli target healing ability(pet heal) and the changes to Power Surge, are examples for this new vision.

    My hope is hat they will be able to proceed with this vision without making the classes too generic. For example, I would have preferred that Sorc supportive abilities will be tied to magick shields and not heals.
  • Fur_like_snow
    Fur_like_snow
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    Until CP is reworked or removed any ideas are just wishful thinking.
  • phoenixkungfu
    phoenixkungfu
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    Until CP is reworked or removed any ideas are just wishful thinking.

    I'm not in the loop of the when of when and dates of when. So if cp rework is not by next patch release and performance update patch doesn't fix the lag.(which it won't let's just be honest) pull smoke and mirror move. Make player believe in magic. ADJUST abilities for lag. Create the illusion of smooth gameplay. Adjust abilities so move with stun dont lead to a player being killed but the follow up does. This will give player reaction time. Make pvp focus on dangerous pre moves that can land. Moves light Fisher should change colors before going off. Give the same treatment to power of the light, curse make it the loudest brightest color in the rainbow. Lower melee range and design gap closer as a pre look out reaction time move.
    Change the gameplay to play through the lag. Rather than design for no lag.
    Edited by phoenixkungfu on February 20, 2020 4:03PM
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Until CP is reworked or removed any ideas are just wishful thinking.

    I'm not in the loop of the when of when and dates of when. So if cp rework is not by next patch release and performance update patch doesn't fix the lag.(which it won't let's just be honest) pull smoke and mirror move. Make player believe in magic. ADJUST abilities for lag. Create the illusion of smooth gameplay. Adjust abilities so move with stun dont lead to a player being killed but the follow up does. This will give player reaction time. Make pvp focus on dangerous pre moves that can land. Moves light Fisher should change colors before going off. Give the same treatment to power of the light, curse make it the loudest brightest color in the rainbow. Lower melee range and design gap closer as a pre look out reaction time move.
    Change the gameplay to play through the lag. Rather than design for no lag.

    Everyone experiences different levels of lag. Its highly variable from person to person and even from night to night in Cyrodiil. 12 people in the same group in Cyrodiil can have widely different experiences with lag.

    For example, in the same fight, I was dealing with seeing my group rubber band back and forth in position so half the time I was moving where I thought the group was headed, another player was only seeing half the enemies render, and one of the healers was seeing a couple seconds delay on their Purge while my Purge appeared to go off instantly.

    Its not so simple to say "change the gameplay to play through lag" when lag is different for everyone.
  • phoenixkungfu
    phoenixkungfu
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    Until CP is reworked or removed any ideas are just wishful thinking.

    I'm not in the loop of the when of when and dates of when. So if cp rework is not by next patch release and performance update patch doesn't fix the lag.(which it won't let's just be honest) pull smoke and mirror move. Make player believe in magic. ADJUST abilities for lag. Create the illusion of smooth gameplay. Adjust abilities so move with stun dont lead to a player being killed but the follow up does. This will give player reaction time. Make pvp focus on dangerous pre moves that can land. Moves light Fisher should change colors before going off. Give the same treatment to power of the light, curse make it the loudest brightest color in the rainbow. Lower melee range and design gap closer as a pre look out reaction time move.
    Change the gameplay to play through the lag. Rather than design for no lag.

    Everyone experiences different levels of lag. Its highly variable from person to person and even from night to night in Cyrodiil. 12 people in the same group in Cyrodiil can have widely different experiences with lag.

    For example, in the same fight, I was dealing with seeing my group rubber band back and forth in position so half the time I was moving where I thought the group was headed, another player was only seeing half the enemies render, and one of the healers was seeing a couple seconds delay on their Purge while my Purge appeared to go off instantly.

    Its not so simple to say "change the gameplay to play through lag" when lag is different for everyone.

    Sure it is. Just think less like a dev and more like a consumer. Test lag during high times. Then after getting that data. Create a Lag simulator program and base abilities around that. Eazy peezy. think outside the box.
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
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    Until CP is reworked or removed any ideas are just wishful thinking.

    I'm not in the loop of the when of when and dates of when. So if cp rework is not by next patch release and performance update patch doesn't fix the lag.(which it won't let's just be honest) pull smoke and mirror move. Make player believe in magic. ADJUST abilities for lag. Create the illusion of smooth gameplay. Adjust abilities so move with stun dont lead to a player being killed but the follow up does. This will give player reaction time. Make pvp focus on dangerous pre moves that can land. Moves light Fisher should change colors before going off. Give the same treatment to power of the light, curse make it the loudest brightest color in the rainbow. Lower melee range and design gap closer as a pre look out reaction time move.
    Change the gameplay to play through the lag. Rather than design for no lag.

    Everyone experiences different levels of lag. Its highly variable from person to person and even from night to night in Cyrodiil. 12 people in the same group in Cyrodiil can have widely different experiences with lag.

    For example, in the same fight, I was dealing with seeing my group rubber band back and forth in position so half the time I was moving where I thought the group was headed, another player was only seeing half the enemies render, and one of the healers was seeing a couple seconds delay on their Purge while my Purge appeared to go off instantly.

    Its not so simple to say "change the gameplay to play through lag" when lag is different for everyone.

    Sure it is. Just think less like a dev and more like a consumer. Test lag during high times. Then after getting that data. Create a Lag simulator program and base abilities around that. Eazy peezy. think outside the box.

    These problems are more difficult than you presently comprehend. Take some more time to consider them.
    Edited by Toc de Malsvi on February 20, 2020 6:37PM
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • Lirkin
    Lirkin
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    Eliminating the uniqueness of classes will make the game boring. Why make different characters if they can all do the same skills. They did this with the nightblade class moving a bunch of the unique skills to the medium armor skills.

    This vision that the devs have better make sure they don't end up with a boring game.

    PVP will never be balanced in this game! They don't what to do what is needed to make it balanced but think that nerfing skills is going to get them there.

    They keep nerfing things to try and do this but all they get is more limited PVE variability in builds.

  • iCaliban
    iCaliban
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    Looking over last year events, we are obviously at the start-middle of a transition period. I was expecting big changes for 2020 but I suspect that it will not be ready due to changes in priorities(performance issue and such) and the magnitude to the changes.

    Several major changes have already started to be implanted, and it will probably be an ongoing process.

    1)Standardization of skills.
    2)addition of stamina morphs for magcika skills, addition of skills that scale both with magicka and stamina.
    3)Addition of strong "Hybrid sets.

    What I take from the above directions and the developer's article about class identity(https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025) , is that they want classes to be less and less relied on "weapon skills" and make the class kits more open and accessible to different play styles(for both magicka and stamina).

    I think that Because Stamina builds originally have always been heavily relied on weapon skills, the devs couldn't just handicap it too hard without giving enough alternatives. So we are in this transition period, as Stamina builds are getting more options from class kits and not much is being taken away, while magicka builds are not getting new options and some its stronger weapon skills are being gutted(like clench).

    This is by the way, a huge shift in direction, ESO vision was always play what you want, but it was also like, 'you want to be a healer? grab a resto staff and be a healer"(they always gave the same example of the NB healer).

    Their new vision is: "our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines"

    The devs even hinted a "system" that could be driven force behind this kind of a direction shift.
    "We consider these changes to be stop-gap measures while the team evaluates more holistic improvements for each class in the future." (this is my take on it as I still fantasize a "spell crafting" system).

    And ofc, there is still the big mystery of the CP future and how it will be tied together with the ongoing vision.

    So ya, your confusion is somewhat justified, "the magicka VS stamina war" is not a real thing, claims of "BIAS" /"HYPOCRISY " and such are not part to a game design discussion.

    The off-balance change is annoying and creates many problems, but I have a feeling there is a bigger reason for this change which we are unaware of.

    Hum, that will be interesting if they follow this kind of thinking. From what you’ve said I’ve gathered Templar = Healer, DK = Tank, etc... and more traditional roles.

    If that’s the case some classes will be dead. Tankiness and healing is too important to be a class feature, damage has been fairly equalized because of pve, if some classes are left tankier or with better heals pvp will never be balanced.

    Honestly I can balance pvp in a week with 1 meeting, 1 conversation, 1 direction 1 road map. AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH class balance in term of how they been going about it. My only issue with writing a game changing healthy gameplay balance post, is Preception. Will the preception be I want your job and you should just hire me for my creative vision. And development team be like "who do this guy think he is..". Or will it be wow how come we didn't think of that and he is right. my style is more of a chief Ramsay. I would tell and fire but that just because my experience is life works like that. But I think in this case, I will attach more bee's with honey. I'm honestly trying to just not damage any ego's. So I will post a Road map to how to fix pvp tonight.

    Your post is precisely whats wrong with the world. The ignorant and stupid believe that complex issues can be solved with simple answers.

    "One conversation" to fix balance in game with tens of thousands of possible builds and gear combinations. Thats going up there with "build a wall so your obsolete manufacturing jobs come back"
  • Moonsorrow
    Moonsorrow
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    Pure PhoenixKungfu classic stuff again.. i still urge you to get experienced with ALL classes/specs to really understand them and the why certain things (mechanics & class and spec differences) are as they are because without that understanding - you will just end up burnouting yourself with views, opinions and ideas to improve the game from just one very limited perspective, as you currently do.

    You often worry about MagSorc - when i play it i love it always - it is a destroyer with a fast kill combo (that has big deadly numbers on tool tips AND in reality to kill experienced opponents too, even with like 2 sustain sets on and 1 damage set). I kite stam brawlers with too heavy hits (Streak is LOVE), and take them out then with a trap & timing, turning the kite movement that looks like escaping to offensive when Ulti is up. ;)

    MagSorc can "brawl" (move around like a Lightning Goddess) with any Stam, even with competitive ones in tight specs, you just need movement and very good sustain to force them out of their off stat (magicka) defense pool so they cannot "spam" things like Shimmering up anymore and then you go all in with a proper combo.

    Again i say, the game does not need to change for one players needs, the one player can change & get better at the game way easier if just wants to.

    I wish you no harm Phoenix, your stuff always atleast brings sort of a smile when reading and that "not sure if trolling or serious" thought to my head heh. Stop stressing too much about ESO Combat and Sorc vs Others especially - you just end up salty in the end on that road.

    I wish you PhoenixKungfu and others on this topic a great day! :)
  • coradaelu
    coradaelu
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    Until CP is reworked or removed any ideas are just wishful thinking.

    I'm not in the loop of the when of when and dates of when. So if cp rework is not by next patch release and performance update patch doesn't fix the lag.(which it won't let's just be honest) pull smoke and mirror move. Make player believe in magic. ADJUST abilities for lag. Create the illusion of smooth gameplay. Adjust abilities so move with stun dont lead to a player being killed but the follow up does. This will give player reaction time. Make pvp focus on dangerous pre moves that can land. Moves light Fisher should change colors before going off. Give the same treatment to power of the light, curse make it the loudest brightest color in the rainbow. Lower melee range and design gap closer as a pre look out reaction time move.
    Change the gameplay to play through the lag. Rather than design for no lag.

    Everyone experiences different levels of lag. Its highly variable from person to person and even from night to night in Cyrodiil. 12 people in the same group in Cyrodiil can have widely different experiences with lag.

    For example, in the same fight, I was dealing with seeing my group rubber band back and forth in position so half the time I was moving where I thought the group was headed, another player was only seeing half the enemies render, and one of the healers was seeing a couple seconds delay on their Purge while my Purge appeared to go off instantly.

    Its not so simple to say "change the gameplay to play through lag" when lag is different for everyone.

    Lag really killed this game, a Lot of my friends stopped playing for this reason, some of them back time to time but they realize it's still unplayable on prime time and just log out, i like play heavy burst damage sets but its not possible all the time with this lag one mistake can make you dead and the server response its so bad, I think this is the reason why many people build tank on Cyro.. "change the gameplay to play through lag"
  • Moonsorrow
    Moonsorrow
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    coradaelu wrote: »
    Until CP is reworked or removed any ideas are just wishful thinking.

    I'm not in the loop of the when of when and dates of when. So if cp rework is not by next patch release and performance update patch doesn't fix the lag.(which it won't let's just be honest) pull smoke and mirror move. Make player believe in magic. ADJUST abilities for lag. Create the illusion of smooth gameplay. Adjust abilities so move with stun dont lead to a player being killed but the follow up does. This will give player reaction time. Make pvp focus on dangerous pre moves that can land. Moves light Fisher should change colors before going off. Give the same treatment to power of the light, curse make it the loudest brightest color in the rainbow. Lower melee range and design gap closer as a pre look out reaction time move.
    Change the gameplay to play through the lag. Rather than design for no lag.

    Everyone experiences different levels of lag. Its highly variable from person to person and even from night to night in Cyrodiil. 12 people in the same group in Cyrodiil can have widely different experiences with lag.

    For example, in the same fight, I was dealing with seeing my group rubber band back and forth in position so half the time I was moving where I thought the group was headed, another player was only seeing half the enemies render, and one of the healers was seeing a couple seconds delay on their Purge while my Purge appeared to go off instantly.

    Its not so simple to say "change the gameplay to play through lag" when lag is different for everyone.

    Lag really killed this game, a Lot of my friends stopped playing for this reason, some of them back time to time but they realize it's still unplayable on prime time and just log out, i like play heavy burst damage sets but its not possible all the time with this lag one mistake can make you dead and the server response its so bad, I think this is the reason why many people build tank on Cyro.. "change the gameplay to play through lag"

    The Lag is a real killer yes, when skills not respond, bar not swap fast enough to defensive bar and so on, you die fast on "glass cannon(ish) setups like on me on my Magblade, its pure damage but atleast a bit defensive back bar, but.. 1 second lag and often i get either zerg killed or burst comboed/health desynced to death during that 1 second or the next when my bar finally swaps but the gcd on me pressing the emergency skill does not activate also fast enough. :|

    So yeah, on many of my characters i have to to take that into consideration and build a bit more tanky so can (sometimes) survive the lag and random loadscreens like when keep flips but your enemy does not get loadscreen but has during me loadscreening hammered me to death. Always nice to see a blue screen of death recap when loading done (like 5 seconds loadscreens randomly inside keeps/resources.

    And also random short loadscreens especially at the north side of Cyrodiil map even at the snowy wilderness where is nothing. No idea why there more than at other sides of map? Or is it just me?
  • Stibbons
    Stibbons
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    Magic and stamina are both the same. With stamina you can pulse healing around you or shoot stamina fireballs :D They really have thinked the skills in stamina and magic visuals etc and the whole consept. Still you can only Dodge with stamina and brake cc with stamina and block with stamina. Huge advantage of being stamina char in any pvp content.
  • SaucyMcSauceface
    SaucyMcSauceface
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    iCaliban wrote: »
    Iskiab wrote: »
    Looking over last year events, we are obviously at the start-middle of a transition period. I was expecting big changes for 2020 but I suspect that it will not be ready due to changes in priorities(performance issue and such) and the magnitude to the changes.

    Several major changes have already started to be implanted, and it will probably be an ongoing process.

    1)Standardization of skills.
    2)addition of stamina morphs for magcika skills, addition of skills that scale both with magicka and stamina.
    3)Addition of strong "Hybrid sets.

    What I take from the above directions and the developer's article about class identity(https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025) , is that they want classes to be less and less relied on "weapon skills" and make the class kits more open and accessible to different play styles(for both magicka and stamina).

    I think that Because Stamina builds originally have always been heavily relied on weapon skills, the devs couldn't just handicap it too hard without giving enough alternatives. So we are in this transition period, as Stamina builds are getting more options from class kits and not much is being taken away, while magicka builds are not getting new options and some its stronger weapon skills are being gutted(like clench).

    This is by the way, a huge shift in direction, ESO vision was always play what you want, but it was also like, 'you want to be a healer? grab a resto staff and be a healer"(they always gave the same example of the NB healer).

    Their new vision is: "our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines"

    The devs even hinted a "system" that could be driven force behind this kind of a direction shift.
    "We consider these changes to be stop-gap measures while the team evaluates more holistic improvements for each class in the future." (this is my take on it as I still fantasize a "spell crafting" system).

    And ofc, there is still the big mystery of the CP future and how it will be tied together with the ongoing vision.

    So ya, your confusion is somewhat justified, "the magicka VS stamina war" is not a real thing, claims of "BIAS" /"HYPOCRISY " and such are not part to a game design discussion.

    The off-balance change is annoying and creates many problems, but I have a feeling there is a bigger reason for this change which we are unaware of.

    Hum, that will be interesting if they follow this kind of thinking. From what you’ve said I’ve gathered Templar = Healer, DK = Tank, etc... and more traditional roles.

    If that’s the case some classes will be dead. Tankiness and healing is too important to be a class feature, damage has been fairly equalized because of pve, if some classes are left tankier or with better heals pvp will never be balanced.

    Honestly I can balance pvp in a week with 1 meeting, 1 conversation, 1 direction 1 road map. AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH class balance in term of how they been going about it. My only issue with writing a game changing healthy gameplay balance post, is Preception. Will the preception be I want your job and you should just hire me for my creative vision. And development team be like "who do this guy think he is..". Or will it be wow how come we didn't think of that and he is right. my style is more of a chief Ramsay. I would tell and fire but that just because my experience is life works like that. But I think in this case, I will attach more bee's with honey. I'm honestly trying to just not damage any ego's. So I will post a Road map to how to fix pvp tonight.

    Your post is precisely whats wrong with the world. The ignorant and stupid believe that complex issues can be solved with simple answers.

    "One conversation" to fix balance in game with tens of thousands of possible builds and gear combinations. Thats going up there with "build a wall so your obsolete manufacturing jobs come back"

    The formal name for what we see here is the Dunning-Kruger effect. We should feel pity for those unable to see that their ideas are so deeply flawed...
  • Tigerseye
    Tigerseye
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    In regards to weapon abilities, I believe they're scaling them back because class abilities should be stronger.

    But, why is that the case?

    Shouldn't everything you can pick from be equal, otherwise what's the point?

    They're just red herrings.

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