Small dungeon rework idea.

Kombinator

Please read the WHOLE before you judge.

First i would reduce DLC dungeon's to base game level.

Then i would introduce 2 new difficulty level. One would be the "solo" difficulty, and the other would be the "elite".

Quest can only be done in solo. On solo difficulty base, and inevitable damage, and health reduced to be played on solo, but AOEs, and avoidable would be very close to normal level. So failing to do certain mechanics on solo would very likely get you killed. Quest reward would remain, because as solo player this would be a tough one.

Elite difficulty would be hard as hell. It would demand strong players, and perfect mechanics knowledge both on base, and DLC dungeons. No longer tank stands in fire, because it won't kill him in Banished Cells. It would deal 50k. each second for example. Level requirement for it would be 300CP, and 3 star gear. So no matter how much cp you got you can't go in low gear.

Beyond that you could not queue dungeons, that you have no achievements for on any of your characters. Normal would be the starter, but above that game would check, if any of your character has achievement for it. If not, then you can't go dungeon finder for it. Random vet., and random elite would not be available until at least 50% of the dungeons unlocked.

Premade groups are not affected. They could go wherever they please. Unlocking higher level achievement would auto unlock lower levels.

Reward difference for elite from vet. would be, that part gear comes as legendary, and droprates in general would be drastically increased (3 times at least). So if you wish for a full set of gear as a high level skilled player, then doing elite would be much better.

Iccotak

added note
Solo mode capped at 2 players (you can strictly play by yourself but its there if you want to play with a friend, it is an MMO after all

Darkenarlol

first impression:

- quest skill points only in solo mode? srsly?

- elite difficulty is "elite" just because of oneshots from every mob sneeze??

- all characters dungeon achieves from all account server check before queue dungeon???


on second thought we have another propose to alienate from dungeon finder

as much not fully dungeons dedicated playerbase as possible

and all this work just to get into 50k-oneshots-from-everithing dungeon

with a bunch of 300cp with "3 star" (BLUE) gear


there are a lot of rude and impolite words in my head now...

so let's just say "no, thanks for your time and effort, but no"

Grianasteri

Kombinator wrote: »

Please read the WHOLE before you judge.

First i would reduce DLC dungeon's to base game level.

Then i would introduce 2 new difficulty level. One would be the "solo" difficulty, and the other would be the "elite".

Quest can only be done in solo. On solo difficulty base, and inevitable damage, and health reduced to be played on solo, but AOEs, and avoidable would be very close to normal level. So failing to do certain mechanics on solo would very likely get you killed. Quest reward would remain, because as solo player this would be a tough one.

Elite difficulty would be hard as hell. It would demand strong players, and perfect mechanics knowledge both on base, and DLC dungeons. No longer tank stands in fire, because it won't kill him in Banished Cells. It would deal 50k. each second for example. Level requirement for it would be 300CP, and 3 star gear. So no matter how much cp you got you can't go in low gear.

Beyond that you could not queue dungeons, that you have no achievements for on any of your characters. Normal would be the starter, but above that game would check, if any of your character has achievement for it. If not, then you can't go dungeon finder for it. Random vet., and random elite would not be available until at least 50% of the dungeons unlocked.

Premade groups are not affected. They could go wherever they please. Unlocking higher level achievement would auto unlock lower levels.

Reward difference for elite from vet. would be, that part gear comes as legendary, and droprates in general would be drastically increased (3 times at least). So if you wish for a full set of gear as a high level skilled player, then doing elite would be much better.

I can understand the issues you are trying to solve. But the problem still rests with the group finder and the numbers, splitting the player base up and locking off content is unlikely to be positive for a variety of reasons. It would likely extend group finder times drastically.

I have often thought that the dungeons difficulties could do with tweaking and/or redesign. The jump from normal to veteran can be drastic, particularly for those DLC dungeons. But we cant split the player base when looking at this issue. Some kind of scaling seems to me a more viable option. Anyoo, props for putting the time and effort into ideas.

Nordic__Knights

Sounds like an easy farm for free gold gear guess purple aint good anymore might have to spend an 100k out the millions in bank to upgrade an set but then how often they nurf gear that might be worth having gold gear as it was free
So other then giving an elite choice for gold gear the rest id say nooooo to but free gold gear that well be nurffed anyway id say why not hell it would make up for all the sets ive golden out then got nurffed

bmnoble

How many of these type of threads are you going to create? This whole gating what dungeons players can queue for or not based on achievements has not gone over well in your other threads:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/511360/new-idea-of-dungeon-advancement#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/511341/dungeon-certificate-and-advanced-tutorial/p1

Solo difficulty, got no issue with them adding a pure story mode for players, what you have written/describe in OP would likely still be too much of a challenge for many of the people wanting that option, can't remember the number of threads that popped up on the forums with people struggling with the Dragon fights during the Elsweyr main quests and prologue quests.

If they make the difficulty on par with public dungeons, I think most who just want to do the story will be able to manage. Don't see a need for limiting the group size to 1 - 2 let up to 4 people do it, if they want to.

Considering your talking about using group finder with this limited group size you could worst case scenario end up with two tanks or healers or a tank and healer, that would be slow going even on a lower difficulty let alone if it happened in the Elite queue.

Elite difficulty, one shots attacks from enemies are the laziest way to increase difficulty in games and the least enjoyable in my opinion, they make the support roles less relevant, healers can't save you from one shots and if tanks can't survive them.

You may as well just try your luck with a DPS group instead, that might be fire for pre-made groups PUG's will get the short end of the stick, with the amount of low damage, DPS in the queue you could end up with plenty of groups that struggle to clear the content.

Legendary drops from dungeons is a bad idea, you would get skilled players that already motif farm, farm the easiest of the Elite dungeons for gold drops to decon to sell.


Splitting up the queues for all these different group category's, would likely add to longer wait times.

Alienoutlaw

1st. Moving DLC dungeons to base game serves no purpose, ESO+ essentially does this already.
2nd. I already have the option to solo a dungeon if i want to
3rd. In regards to "Elite mode" i can already choose to 2man a Vet HM dungeon.
4th. some DLC dungeons already have a 300cp requirement.
5th. No access without achievements. This would add undue pressure to an already struggling system and would only mean more crashes and bugs.
6th. legendary drops? why i came farm normal and just improve the gear, gold is not hard to make.

in conclusion this idea is flawed and would only serve to separate the community even more than it is now, the dungeons and difficulty level are not the problem, the group finder tool needs to be looked at again.

Artim_X

I read the whole thing and tbh I don't like your ideas. Although a solo story mode would be a nice addition.

Kombinator

Darkenarlol wrote: »

first impression:

- quest skill points only in solo mode? srsly?

- elite difficulty is "elite" just because of oneshots from every mob sneeze??

- all characters dungeon achieves from all account server check before queue dungeon???


on second thought we have another propose to alienate from dungeon finder

as much not fully dungeons dedicated playerbase as possible

and all this work just to get into 50k-oneshots-from-everithing dungeon

with a bunch of 300cp with "3 star" (BLUE) gear


there are a lot of rude and impolite words in my head now...

so let's just say "no, thanks for your time and effort, but no"

The first because those who go dungeon finder rarely do it for the quest. They want GEAR. A quester, that carefuly read, and choose mean wasted time. And hardcore players often kick them.

Elite difficulty is for the hardcore players. You know the guys who do trials regulary. It is not for "causals". It is meant for strong parties, and not for fake tanks, no healers, pure dd steamroll, and similar stuff. The reason to add it is to improve variety of hard dungeons for tough players. So they can do more, than 2 trials, that are considered hard.

The achievement checks is for avoiding braindeads, and first timer on above normal difficulty. That means you can't just. Hey i'm 1976 CP. Never in my life did a dungeon, but let's jump into an elite., and ruin everyone's day in there. Yes this is so much better.

3 star is epic, if i remember correctly, but if not, then consider it full epic.

Kombinator

Grianasteri wrote: »

Kombinator wrote: »

Please read the WHOLE before you judge.

First i would reduce DLC dungeon's to base game level.

Then i would introduce 2 new difficulty level. One would be the "solo" difficulty, and the other would be the "elite".

Quest can only be done in solo. On solo difficulty base, and inevitable damage, and health reduced to be played on solo, but AOEs, and avoidable would be very close to normal level. So failing to do certain mechanics on solo would very likely get you killed. Quest reward would remain, because as solo player this would be a tough one.

Elite difficulty would be hard as hell. It would demand strong players, and perfect mechanics knowledge both on base, and DLC dungeons. No longer tank stands in fire, because it won't kill him in Banished Cells. It would deal 50k. each second for example. Level requirement for it would be 300CP, and 3 star gear. So no matter how much cp you got you can't go in low gear.

Beyond that you could not queue dungeons, that you have no achievements for on any of your characters. Normal would be the starter, but above that game would check, if any of your character has achievement for it. If not, then you can't go dungeon finder for it. Random vet., and random elite would not be available until at least 50% of the dungeons unlocked.

Premade groups are not affected. They could go wherever they please. Unlocking higher level achievement would auto unlock lower levels.

Reward difference for elite from vet. would be, that part gear comes as legendary, and droprates in general would be drastically increased (3 times at least). So if you wish for a full set of gear as a high level skilled player, then doing elite would be much better.

I can understand the issues you are trying to solve. But the problem still rests with the group finder and the numbers, splitting the player base up and locking off content is unlikely to be positive for a variety of reasons. It would likely extend group finder times drastically.

I have often thought that the dungeons difficulties could do with tweaking and/or redesign. The jump from normal to veteran can be drastic, particularly for those DLC dungeons. But we cant split the player base when looking at this issue. Some kind of scaling seems to me a more viable option. Anyoo, props for putting the time and effort into ideas.

Why not just erase all requirement from everywhere, and nerf dungeons to dust so that the strongest player can solo veteran? That way you increase the playerbase to every single player in the game. Even more erase the class requirements. Just put players randomly. Who cares if it's 3 tank, and a healer. What a perfect solution to reduce waiting times to the minimum.

Kombinator

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

1st. Moving DLC dungeons to base game serves no purpose, ESO+ essentially does this already.
2nd. I already have the option to solo a dungeon if i want to
3rd. In regards to "Elite mode" i can already choose to 2man a Vet HM dungeon.
4th. some DLC dungeons already have a 300cp requirement.
5th. No access without achievements. This would add undue pressure to an already struggling system and would only mean more crashes and bugs.
6th. legendary drops? why i came farm normal and just improve the gear, gold is not hard to make.

in conclusion this idea is flawed and would only serve to separate the community even more than it is now, the dungeons and difficulty level are not the problem, the group finder tool needs to be looked at again.

And you can just go with full premade guild, or yell for players half an hour in zone chat. So how about erase the dungeon finder as whole. It would be sure easier for ZOS as well.

Also yeah some DLC dungeon are tough, but this would improve the variety of tough dungeons. By your logic we should bring back the leveled zones, and dungeons, because there is that one zone, and 3 dungeon, that are on max level.

Yes you can go solo dungeon, if you want to. And your chance of surviving it is 0 in certain cases. There are DLC dungeons, that are literary impossible to do solo. One example is the first boss in White-Gold tower. Boss cages you, and it's over. If all players are dead, or caged, then it just evades, and full health.

Kombinator

bmnoble wrote: »

How many of these type of threads are you going to create? This whole gating what dungeons players can queue for or not based on achievements has not gone over well in your other threads:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/511360/new-idea-of-dungeon-advancement#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/511341/dungeon-certificate-and-advanced-tutorial/p1

Solo difficulty, got no issue with them adding a pure story mode for players, what you have written/describe in OP would likely still be too much of a challenge for many of the people wanting that option, can't remember the number of threads that popped up on the forums with people struggling with the Dragon fights during the Elsweyr main quests and prologue quests.

If they make the difficulty on par with public dungeons, I think most who just want to do the story will be able to manage. Don't see a need for limiting the group size to 1 - 2 let up to 4 people do it, if they want to.

Considering your talking about using group finder with this limited group size you could worst case scenario end up with two tanks or healers or a tank and healer, that would be slow going even on a lower difficulty let alone if it happened in the Elite queue.

Elite difficulty, one shots attacks from enemies are the laziest way to increase difficulty in games and the least enjoyable in my opinion, they make the support roles less relevant, healers can't save you from one shots and if tanks can't survive them.

You may as well just try your luck with a DPS group instead, that might be fire for pre-made groups PUG's will get the short end of the stick, with the amount of low damage, DPS in the queue you could end up with plenty of groups that struggle to clear the content.

Legendary drops from dungeons is a bad idea, you would get skilled players that already motif farm, farm the easiest of the Elite dungeons for gold drops to decon to sell.


Splitting up the queues for all these different group category's, would likely add to longer wait times.

That's why it's small, and not big rework. Changing a few numbers so that low level dungeons become challenging is much easier, than creating a brand new with 200 new mechanics. Beside those mechanics were once tough. Maybe not onehit, but strong enough to destroy you, if you don't move.

Longer wait time, but very likely better group. What is better? Wait 10 minutes for a group, that 95% chance a success, or wait 2 seconds, and have 30% chance to fail. Or is it better to kick others, and wait 15 minutes for replacement? Or is it better, if the story guy gets kicked, because the rest wana go fast?

The other reason is to increase variety of challenge for those who are on top levels. So that they can stop farming the same trial 1000000000 times, and do something more while waiting for next content.

As for solo. It would have 2 purpose. One is to do the quest, and the other is to teach at least part of the mechanics. If you wana go easy content, then don't go dungeons. SImple as that. But it would also helpful for people who don't wana ruin other's day by going into a dungeon as first timer, and don't even have the ability to ask tactic, or understand english.

FierceSam

Kombinator wrote: »

bmnoble wrote: »

How many of these type of threads are you going to create? This whole gating what dungeons players can queue for or not based on achievements has not gone over well in your other threads:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/511360/new-idea-of-dungeon-advancement#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/511341/dungeon-certificate-and-advanced-tutorial/p1

Solo difficulty, got no issue with them adding a pure story mode for players, what you have written/describe in OP would likely still be too much of a challenge for many of the people wanting that option, can't remember the number of threads that popped up on the forums with people struggling with the Dragon fights during the Elsweyr main quests and prologue quests.

If they make the difficulty on par with public dungeons, I think most who just want to do the story will be able to manage. Don't see a need for limiting the group size to 1 - 2 let up to 4 people do it, if they want to.

Considering your talking about using group finder with this limited group size you could worst case scenario end up with two tanks or healers or a tank and healer, that would be slow going even on a lower difficulty let alone if it happened in the Elite queue.

Elite difficulty, one shots attacks from enemies are the laziest way to increase difficulty in games and the least enjoyable in my opinion, they make the support roles less relevant, healers can't save you from one shots and if tanks can't survive them.

You may as well just try your luck with a DPS group instead, that might be fire for pre-made groups PUG's will get the short end of the stick, with the amount of low damage, DPS in the queue you could end up with plenty of groups that struggle to clear the content.

Legendary drops from dungeons is a bad idea, you would get skilled players that already motif farm, farm the easiest of the Elite dungeons for gold drops to decon to sell.


Splitting up the queues for all these different group category's, would likely add to longer wait times.

That's why it's small, and not big rework. Changing a few numbers so that low level dungeons become challenging is much easier, than creating a brand new with 200 new mechanics. Beside those mechanics were once tough. Maybe not onehit, but strong enough to destroy you, if you don't move.

Longer wait time, but very likely better group. What is better? Wait 10 minutes for a group, that 95% chance a success, or wait 2 seconds, and have 30% chance to fail. Or is it better to kick others, and wait 15 minutes for replacement? Or is it better, if the story guy gets kicked, because the rest wana go fast?

The other reason is to increase variety of challenge for those who are on top levels. So that they can stop farming the same trial 1000000000 times, and do something more while waiting for next content.

As for solo. It would have 2 purpose. One is to do the quest, and the other is to teach at least part of the mechanics. If you wana go easy content, then don't go dungeons. SImple as that. But it would also helpful for people who don't wana ruin other's day by going into a dungeon as first timer, and don't even have the ability to ask tactic, or understand english.

Questing in dungeons is really a case of caring about other players. If you do, you’ll be fine with them reading the quests. If you don’t you’ll simply rampage on oblivious. It should be expected that someone is questing in a normal dungeon and we should all be prepared for that.

There is no need to change the difficulty of basegame dungeons. They are already difficult enough. Maybe not for you or me, but trust me, they’re a genuine challenge for many players and that’s what they should be. There’s literally no call to make FG1 great again.

If you want to do harder content with players who are capable of doing it, it’s out there already. And believe me ZOS are working as hard as they can to keep creating top level difficulty content. The best way to get a group that you won’t feel is full of losers is to form that group yourself rather than expecting ZOS or the group finder to do this for you.

Reworking the entire system just so you don’t have to play with players who aren’t at ‘your’ level is a bit extreme.

Alienoutlaw

Kombinator wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

1st. Moving DLC dungeons to base game serves no purpose, ESO+ essentially does this already.
2nd. I already have the option to solo a dungeon if i want to
3rd. In regards to "Elite mode" i can already choose to 2man a Vet HM dungeon.
4th. some DLC dungeons already have a 300cp requirement.
5th. No access without achievements. This would add undue pressure to an already struggling system and would only mean more crashes and bugs.
6th. legendary drops? why i came farm normal and just improve the gear, gold is not hard to make.

in conclusion this idea is flawed and would only serve to separate the community even more than it is now, the dungeons and difficulty level are not the problem, the group finder tool needs to be looked at again.

And you can just go with full premade guild, or yell for players half an hour in zone chat. So how about erase the dungeon finder as whole. It would be sure easier for ZOS as well.

Also yeah some DLC dungeon are tough, but this would improve the variety of tough dungeons. By your logic we should bring back the leveled zones, and dungeons, because there is that one zone, and 3 dungeon, that are on max level.

Yes you can go solo dungeon, if you want to. And your chance of surviving it is 0 in certain cases. There are DLC dungeons, that are literary impossible to do solo. One example is the first boss in White-Gold tower. Boss cages you, and it's over. If all players are dead, or caged, then it just evades, and full health.

simply not true at all

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

We have recently removed some baiting and non-constructive commentary. We would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.

Grianasteri

Decent players can already solo veteran dungeons, like me, and I am not even that good. I am working my way through the base game dungeons on veteran, its great fun!

Some dungeons mechanics mean that it is probably impossible to solo them, particularly the DLC on vet.

One of the main principles of MMOs, is the division of roles, I think this is a staple and should therefore remain part of the way content is designed.
.

TheGreatBlackBear

The solution is simple. Go beat the dummy till you git gud enough to solo everything. So no matter what potatoes the group finder throws your way you'll be fine.

Agenericname

Kombinator wrote: »

bmnoble wrote: »

How many of these type of threads are you going to create? This whole gating what dungeons players can queue for or not based on achievements has not gone over well in your other threads:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/511360/new-idea-of-dungeon-advancement#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/511341/dungeon-certificate-and-advanced-tutorial/p1

Solo difficulty, got no issue with them adding a pure story mode for players, what you have written/describe in OP would likely still be too much of a challenge for many of the people wanting that option, can't remember the number of threads that popped up on the forums with people struggling with the Dragon fights during the Elsweyr main quests and prologue quests.

If they make the difficulty on par with public dungeons, I think most who just want to do the story will be able to manage. Don't see a need for limiting the group size to 1 - 2 let up to 4 people do it, if they want to.

Considering your talking about using group finder with this limited group size you could worst case scenario end up with two tanks or healers or a tank and healer, that would be slow going even on a lower difficulty let alone if it happened in the Elite queue.

Elite difficulty, one shots attacks from enemies are the laziest way to increase difficulty in games and the least enjoyable in my opinion, they make the support roles less relevant, healers can't save you from one shots and if tanks can't survive them.

You may as well just try your luck with a DPS group instead, that might be fire for pre-made groups PUG's will get the short end of the stick, with the amount of low damage, DPS in the queue you could end up with plenty of groups that struggle to clear the content.

Legendary drops from dungeons is a bad idea, you would get skilled players that already motif farm, farm the easiest of the Elite dungeons for gold drops to decon to sell.


Splitting up the queues for all these different group category's, would likely add to longer wait times.

That's why it's small, and not big rework. Changing a few numbers so that low level dungeons become challenging is much easier, than creating a brand new with 200 new mechanics. Beside those mechanics were once tough. Maybe not onehit, but strong enough to destroy you, if you don't move.

Longer wait time, but very likely better group. What is better? Wait 10 minutes for a group, that 95% chance a success, or wait 2 seconds, and have 30% chance to fail. Or is it better to kick others, and wait 15 minutes for replacement? Or is it better, if the story guy gets kicked, because the rest wana go fast?

The other reason is to increase variety of challenge for those who are on top levels. So that they can stop farming the same trial 1000000000 times, and do something more while waiting for next content.

As for solo. It would have 2 purpose. One is to do the quest, and the other is to teach at least part of the mechanics. If you wana go easy content, then don't go dungeons. SImple as that. But it would also helpful for people who don't wana ruin other's day by going into a dungeon as first timer, and don't even have the ability to ask tactic, or understand english.

It wouldn't be a small rework. The reason why healers aren't needed is because the damage is either very small or death. Good players simply avoid death. Raising the damage from 20-25k when you have 18k health doesn't mean much. So any rework that raised the difficulty in such a manner that it made a noticeable different would need to involve more than simply raising the damage, it would have to involve mechanics.

Hardcore players and questers rarely have a conflict. Questers typically use normal to run their quests on. The few that do quests on vet are typically alts and have done the quests prior or simply do not care. I'm not sure hardcore and normal go well together because normal is rather...normal and thus not hardcore.

I'm all for solo mode if that's what others want. I would be against that being the only way to obtain the skill point though. I typically run the vets the first time to get the skill points and undaunted rep at the same time. I have no interest in running a dungeon on normal, even if solo. Solo should offer the quest and point as should every other mode. If players want a story mode to enjoy the quest, that would make a fine addition, but not substitution.

AlnilamE

Kombinator wrote: »

Quest can only be done in solo.

No.

Mettaricana

Iccotak wrote: »

added note
Solo mode capped at 2 players (you can strictly play by yourself but its there if you want to play with a friend, it is an MMO after all

Id say just add scaling where dungeon reduces dmg or mob health for each player less in group so it can be done solo or duo trio etc say instead of 4man boss having 5mil hp when entered in trio have 4mil health duo 3 mil and solo maybe 2.5 only issue i see are working around party mechanics like gamyu's shades etc

Merlin13KAGL

The queue exists for the benefit of four people, not one.

The option to queue with specific intent would be nice, but not absolutely necessary, and certainly no guarantee of success. (Hard mode, specific achieve, etc.) That's what premades are for.

Even achievements are questionable. The fact you cleared it on a healer doesn't mean you can dps it. The fact you cleared it on a DPS doesn't mean you can tank it.

You want a rating system, of sorts. Going only by that will miss out on some quality players that would otherwise be capable and will simply stop trying. It will also couple you with some people that have been carried for the entirety of their runs.

My stance remains: You know everything you need to know by the first boss/mob pull.