Does this bother anyone else?

Nanfoodle

People are human. Being human we should also be understanding of that fact.

starkerealm

Nanfoodle wrote: »

People are human. Being human we should also be understanding of that fact.

I am. If It's who I think, he's good people, but I'd still crack jokes at him over it.

Ksariyu

Not me at least. I myself do tend to put forth some effort to ensure my spelling is correct (Though I won't pretend to be perfect like the OP), but it doesn't drive a stake through my heart if someone else doesn't take that same care.
Pretentious people are just pretentious.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

When you played WoW for 15 years or more and when you spend most of ur time arguing with Russian pvpers that dont know English and can only say suc mai *****….yeah I feel that this is award worthy English.

CassandraGemini

Ksariyu wrote: »

Not me at least. I myself do tend to put forth some effort to ensure my spelling is correct (Though I won't pretend to be perfect like the OP), but it doesn't drive a stake through my heart if someone else doesn't take that same care.
Pretentious people are just pretentious.

Reading this I can't help but wonder what has happened to this world that it is seen as pretentious nowadays to expect correct spelling and grammar, especially from a big company like Zenimax. Sure, we're all human and humans make mistakes - which is why you proofread stuff like this before you put it out there. Is that really so strange or too much to ask?

Radiance

I hadn't noticed until you pointed it out... But then again I'm one of those who doesn't know when there's been an update despite there being a list of them on the Client Launcher. 😂

Jaraal

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Reading this I can't help but wonder what has happened to this world that it is seen as pretentious nowadays to expect correct spelling and grammar, especially from a big company like Zenimax. Sure, we're all human and humans make mistakes - which is why you proofread stuff like this before you put it out there. Is that really so strange or too much to ask?

There are still a number of spelling, punctuation, and other grammatical errors in the game, as well as quests and other dialogue that make no sense because of lore changes made after the fact. You would think that correcting such errors that portray your company in a bad light and may indirectly affect your earnings due to negative perception from your customers would be a priority to fix, but there appears to be a good amount of "the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing" taking place behind the scenes. And this is yet another faux pas that made it past the test server and onto live.

Yes, we are all human, and make mistakes. But mistakes also have consequences, and you would think that if your public image has a significant impact on your livelihood and the potential earning of your shareholders, that you would at least hire someone who's primary responsibility is to make sure that all text and game dialogue is correct and doesn't subject your product to unnecessary negative impressions in the eyes of your consumers.

Brandathorbel

Agenericname wrote: »

xbobx15 wrote: »

The one that bothers me that so many people do is spelling losing as loosing. Or using loose for lose. Alcast website it littered with it.

I'm fairly certain that it's not his native language. No matter what his native language is, he speaks mine far better than I do his.

It bothers me less than the DOT meta and the abrupt shift back, but I did notice it.

i know, i did point it out to him a while back but he ignored it. But the problem is everywhere. I even read that websters dictionary actually put the word loosing in it because so many people used it they just gave up and added the word

Ksariyu

Loulong wrote: »

I guess having two English teachers for parents made me a gud spelr.

CassandraGemini wrote: »

andreasv wrote: »

Even though, or maybe because of, me not being a native speaker those small things bother me. Especially when a product or service should look professional on all levels. But I guess EOS doesn't care for that.

I'm not a native speaker either, and I know exactly what you mean. Every time I see someone say "could/should/would of" instead of "have" or the other popular mistakes like effect/affect, their/there/they're and your/you're, and I can be pretty certain it comes from a native speaker I can't help but die a little inside.

CassandraGemini wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

I really wonder how it is possible that so many native English speakers have such immense trouble with their own language. It's just really weird to me

Written English makes very little sense, not least because just as spelling was being fixed English was shifting from old English to modern English, dropping most word flexion (keeping only the plural and the possessive) and undergoing phonetic changes. Also at that time Latin was used extensively in monastic/academic circles, and French in court. Modern spelling often reflects how words used to sound, but don't any more. For instance, "gaol" and "jail" now sound and mean exactly the same, but the "gaol" spelling is closer to how the word was pronounced when it was borrowed from the French. Long story short, I think English spelling is bad for natives because it has to be memorised almost word for word. As a native Portuguese speaker, I find that spelling is much closer to how a word sounds. Spanish is even closer, you can basically tell how any word is pronounced from how it's spelled.

As an aside, in my experience the French are the worst writers of their own native language. Far worse than English speakers. Word endings are essentially randomly determined on a case by case basis from one of the dozens of spellings that all sound the same, but even discounting that spelling in French websites is atrocious.

I guess what I just don't understand is, why this seems to make such a difference for native speakers. If we, as non-natives, can learn the language correctly, why can't the natives do it just as well? That just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me and I have to admit that, in my mind, it kind of translates into a "just don't care" attitude.

Which is probably fine, I guess, if it doesn't spell any problems for people (pun intended). I just can't help but imagine what my boss and co-workers would think, if everything I write at work on a daily basis was riddled with spelling and grammar mistakes. Nothing good, that's for sure. I know I would frown if I saw a presentation, for example, that had more than very few spelling/grammar errors where you could see that they're more than just typos. Maybe we just value these things higher here, I don't know.

Edited for bad quoting.

It's not the fact that you expect proper spelling and grammar from professional organizations. To some extent I do too. It's the way you portray yourself while pointing it out. Yes, Zenimax is a large company. Zenimax Online Studios, however, is a comparably very small branch of that company, and one we know to have many internal issues (Not unlike its parent). There's maybe only a few people working on the massive amounts of dialogue in the game, plus a couple more for the PR front, and you're going to crucify them for some very easy-to-make spelling mistakes while trying to pretend you've never made any yourself. Then on top of that, you go on to pretend like its some systemic problem that no native English speakers can spell properly, while also boasting that non-natives somehow never make those mistakes (What an outrageous lie by the way). That's the part I consider to be exceptionally pretentious.
Novels written by professional writers, published by teams of professional editors, go out with errors every day. It happens. If such simple things cause you such grief, I can't imagine how you get by with your day to day life.

@CassandraGemini

CassandraGemini

Ksariyu wrote: »

Loulong wrote: »

I guess having two English teachers for parents made me a gud spelr.

CassandraGemini wrote: »

andreasv wrote: »

Even though, or maybe because of, me not being a native speaker those small things bother me. Especially when a product or service should look professional on all levels. But I guess EOS doesn't care for that.

I'm not a native speaker either, and I know exactly what you mean. Every time I see someone say "could/should/would of" instead of "have" or the other popular mistakes like effect/affect, their/there/they're and your/you're, and I can be pretty certain it comes from a native speaker I can't help but die a little inside.

CassandraGemini wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

I really wonder how it is possible that so many native English speakers have such immense trouble with their own language. It's just really weird to me

Written English makes very little sense, not least because just as spelling was being fixed English was shifting from old English to modern English, dropping most word flexion (keeping only the plural and the possessive) and undergoing phonetic changes. Also at that time Latin was used extensively in monastic/academic circles, and French in court. Modern spelling often reflects how words used to sound, but don't any more. For instance, "gaol" and "jail" now sound and mean exactly the same, but the "gaol" spelling is closer to how the word was pronounced when it was borrowed from the French. Long story short, I think English spelling is bad for natives because it has to be memorised almost word for word. As a native Portuguese speaker, I find that spelling is much closer to how a word sounds. Spanish is even closer, you can basically tell how any word is pronounced from how it's spelled.

As an aside, in my experience the French are the worst writers of their own native language. Far worse than English speakers. Word endings are essentially randomly determined on a case by case basis from one of the dozens of spellings that all sound the same, but even discounting that spelling in French websites is atrocious.

I guess what I just don't understand is, why this seems to make such a difference for native speakers. If we, as non-natives, can learn the language correctly, why can't the natives do it just as well? That just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me and I have to admit that, in my mind, it kind of translates into a "just don't care" attitude.

Which is probably fine, I guess, if it doesn't spell any problems for people (pun intended). I just can't help but imagine what my boss and co-workers would think, if everything I write at work on a daily basis was riddled with spelling and grammar mistakes. Nothing good, that's for sure. I know I would frown if I saw a presentation, for example, that had more than very few spelling/grammar errors where you could see that they're more than just typos. Maybe we just value these things higher here, I don't know.

Edited for bad quoting.

It's not the fact that you expect proper spelling and grammar from professional organizations. To some extent I do too. It's the way you portray yourself while pointing it out. Yes, Zenimax is a large company. Zenimax Online Studios, however, is a comparably very small branch of that company, and one we know to have many internal issues (Not unlike its parent). There's maybe only a few people working on the massive amounts of dialogue in the game, plus a couple more for the PR front, and you're going to crucify them for some very easy-to-make spelling mistakes while trying to pretend you've never made any yourself. Then on top of that, you go on to pretend like its some systemic problem that no native English speakers can spell properly, while also boasting that non-natives somehow never make those mistakes (What an outrageous lie by the way). That's the part I consider to be exceptionally pretentious.
Novels written by professional writers, published by teams of professional editors, go out with errors every day. It happens. If such simple things cause you such grief, I can't imagine how you get by with your day to day life.

@CassandraGemini

Okay, so first: I never claimed not to make mistakes in English, since, as I said, it is not my native language. And whether it is "pretend" that I don't usually make mistakes in my native language, you would not know, because you have never talked to me in it, or seen me use it. And yes, I stand by what I said: Proper language use is important to me, I was raised that way and I value it highly. I also said, though (and you even quoted it) that this is a whole different thing when we're talking about people in their private life. Not everyone has the same priorities and I don't "crucify" anyone because they have different ones than I do.

However, when it comes to public texts like everything that appears in a video game as large and well-known as ESO, this doesn't apply anymore. And it doesn't really matter, if Zenimax Online Studios is a smaller branch of a big company - they still represent their company and the things they publish reflect that. This has nothing to do with "ZOS bashing" or anything like that, I would say the exact same thing about any official text on a website (a company's website of course) for example. It just looks careless to publish spelling/grammar mistakes.

And to address the last point: No, of course this is not a systemic problem and if I made it sound like I believe that no native-speaker can speak - or rather write - proper English, I sincerely apologize, that was not my intention. But I also hope that you won't try to deny that you see the things that I mentioned in my first post here extremely often in places like the comment section of Youtube or on Reddit, for instance. Especially the "would/could/should of" has increased tremendously over the last few years, and I really just wonder why that is? Because yes, I admit that I'm pretty certain that this is a mistake that is indeed mostly made by natives and not foreign learners - hence my comment about non-native speakers, which was not supposed to mean that non-natives are flawless, because that would be absurd.

Well, anyway, we don't have to agree on everything, but, I hope that I was able to clear some things up at least

Agenericname

xbobx15 wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

xbobx15 wrote: »

The one that bothers me that so many people do is spelling losing as loosing. Or using loose for lose. Alcast website it littered with it.

I'm fairly certain that it's not his native language. No matter what his native language is, he speaks mine far better than I do his.

It bothers me less than the DOT meta and the abrupt shift back, but I did notice it.

i know, i did point it out to him a while back but he ignored it. But the problem is everywhere. I even read that websters dictionary actually put the word loosing in it because so many people used it they just gave up and added the word

There's some debate over certain words in the dictionaries, "Literally" for example is often substituted in place of virtually or metaphorically. As it turns out the lexicographers chronicle the use of the word, not always the correct definition.

Sylvermynx

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Ksariyu wrote: »

Not me at least. I myself do tend to put forth some effort to ensure my spelling is correct (Though I won't pretend to be perfect like the OP), but it doesn't drive a stake through my heart if someone else doesn't take that same care.
Pretentious people are just pretentious.

Reading this I can't help but wonder what has happened to this world that it is seen as pretentious nowadays to expect correct spelling and grammar, especially from a big company like Zenimax. Sure, we're all human and humans make mistakes - which is why you proofread stuff like this before you put it out there. Is that really so strange or too much to ask?

You know, I'm a native American English speaker, a writer, and have spent all my life (70 some years now) doing my best to speak, spell, and use grammar correctly. It does bother me that others are less inclined to do so, but it seems endemic here in the last perhaps 20 years.

I've had people I know well tell me it bothers them that I never make grammatical mistakes, and that I embarrass them because I'm precise about language. I just shrug. Living in Utah, I've had to get used to very sloppy English usage, sloppy grammar, and absolutely horrendous misspellings.

The worst ones lately have been on the local news channels. Talk about needing proofreaders! Too bad I'm not wanting a job....

CassandraGemini

Sylvermynx wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Ksariyu wrote: »

Not me at least. I myself do tend to put forth some effort to ensure my spelling is correct (Though I won't pretend to be perfect like the OP), but it doesn't drive a stake through my heart if someone else doesn't take that same care.
Pretentious people are just pretentious.

Reading this I can't help but wonder what has happened to this world that it is seen as pretentious nowadays to expect correct spelling and grammar, especially from a big company like Zenimax. Sure, we're all human and humans make mistakes - which is why you proofread stuff like this before you put it out there. Is that really so strange or too much to ask?

You know, I'm a native American English speaker, a writer, and have spent all my life (70 some years now) doing my best to speak, spell, and use grammar correctly. It does bother me that others are less inclined to do so, but it seems endemic here in the last perhaps 20 years.

I've had people I know well tell me it bothers them that I never make grammatical mistakes, and that I embarrass them because I'm precise about language. I just shrug. Living in Utah, I've had to get used to very sloppy English usage, sloppy grammar, and absolutely horrendous misspellings.

The worst ones lately have been on the local news channels. Talk about needing proofreaders! Too bad I'm not wanting a job....

I know what you mean. I've had people tell me the same thing, friends even. From what I observe people who are not too nitpicky about language are seen as more approachable, and that, apparently, it makes you seem arrogant when you do care. Well, what can I say, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't bother me (and, just to be clear, I'm speaking just as much, if not more, for my native language here), just to appear in a certain way, when it is just not true. This has always been a pet peeve of mine for as long as I can remember, and I won't lie and say that it's not, just because someone might think me "pretentious" for it.

People don't have to agree with that, of course, to each their own. But I'm not going to change my opinion either, not now and not ever, even if this should become the new standard. I will still try and be as precise about everything language-related as I possibly can.

Sylvermynx

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Ksariyu wrote: »

Not me at least. I myself do tend to put forth some effort to ensure my spelling is correct (Though I won't pretend to be perfect like the OP), but it doesn't drive a stake through my heart if someone else doesn't take that same care.
Pretentious people are just pretentious.

Reading this I can't help but wonder what has happened to this world that it is seen as pretentious nowadays to expect correct spelling and grammar, especially from a big company like Zenimax. Sure, we're all human and humans make mistakes - which is why you proofread stuff like this before you put it out there. Is that really so strange or too much to ask?

You know, I'm a native American English speaker, a writer, and have spent all my life (70 some years now) doing my best to speak, spell, and use grammar correctly. It does bother me that others are less inclined to do so, but it seems endemic here in the last perhaps 20 years.

I've had people I know well tell me it bothers them that I never make grammatical mistakes, and that I embarrass them because I'm precise about language. I just shrug. Living in Utah, I've had to get used to very sloppy English usage, sloppy grammar, and absolutely horrendous misspellings.

The worst ones lately have been on the local news channels. Talk about needing proofreaders! Too bad I'm not wanting a job....

I know what you mean. I've had people tell me the same thing, friends even. From what I observe people who are not too nitpicky about language are seen as more approachable, and that, apparently, it makes you seem arrogant when you do care. Well, what can I say, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't bother me (and, just to be clear, I'm speaking just as much, if not more, for my native language here), just to appear in a certain way, when it is just not true. This has always been a pet peeve of mine for as long as I can remember, and I won't lie and say that it's not, just because someone might think me "pretentious" for it.

People don't have to agree with that, of course, to each their own. But I'm not going to change my opinion either, not now and not ever, even if this should become the new standard. I will still try and be as precise about everything language-related as I possibly can.

Yes, as I try to be precise no matter to whom I'm speaking (or posting....) And of course, at my age, I am certainly not going to change my opinion, or my mode of speaking/writing! Hmm. I doubt, for me, that's even possible.

Now I do admit to slangish usages sometimes when it's a one-off joking reply. I think that's "okay" for me, given the posting atmosphere here (and elsewhere).

Ratzkifal

Agenericname wrote: »

xbobx15 wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

xbobx15 wrote: »

The one that bothers me that so many people do is spelling losing as loosing. Or using loose for lose. Alcast website it littered with it.

I'm fairly certain that it's not his native language. No matter what his native language is, he speaks mine far better than I do his.

It bothers me less than the DOT meta and the abrupt shift back, but I did notice it.

i know, i did point it out to him a while back but he ignored it. But the problem is everywhere. I even read that websters dictionary actually put the word loosing in it because so many people used it they just gave up and added the word

There's some debate over certain words in the dictionaries, "Literally" for example is often substituted in place of virtually or metaphorically. As it turns out the lexicographers chronicle the use of the word, not always the correct definition.

Literally is literally used instead of figuratively when people want to say figuratively, literally.

Recent

I kinda like it that zos employees are human and make spelling errors which proves that zenimax is not run by robots😆😆😆

Cundu_Ertur

JimmyJuJu wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

andreasv wrote: »

Even though, or maybe because of, me not being a native speaker those small things bother me. Especially when a product or service should look professional on all levels. But I guess EOS doesn't care for that.

I'm not a native speaker either, and I know exactly what you mean. Every time I see someone say "could/should/would of" instead of "have" or the other popular mistakes like effect/affect, their/there/they're and your/you're, and I can be pretty certain it comes from a native speaker I can't help but die a little inside. Maybe it is because I have a bit of an obsession with grammar and spelling myself (I always edit my comments when I notice I've made a typo) but I really wonder how it is possible that so many native english speakers have such immense trouble with their own language. It's just really weird to me

Or the good ol' classic than/then.

"learnt" gets me every time

Learnt is absolutely valid in England - you know, where people speak English (because it's England...see how that works?). Same applies for other non-American English-speaking countries (Canada, Australia, et al). Indeed, one - who is not American - might say Americans spell the past-tense form of "learn" incorrectly.

In any case, spell-check would have helped here.

Learnt is used in parts of the US. Spell-check likes it, too.

Aigym_Hlervu

Sylvermynx wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Ksariyu wrote: »

Not me at least. I myself do tend to put forth some effort to ensure my spelling is correct (Though I won't pretend to be perfect like the OP), but it doesn't drive a stake through my heart if someone else doesn't take that same care.
Pretentious people are just pretentious.

Reading this I can't help but wonder what has happened to this world that it is seen as pretentious nowadays to expect correct spelling and grammar, especially from a big company like Zenimax. Sure, we're all human and humans make mistakes - which is why you proofread stuff like this before you put it out there. Is that really so strange or too much to ask?

You know, I'm a native American English speaker, a writer, and have spent all my life (70 some years now) doing my best to speak, spell, and use grammar correctly. It does bother me that others are less inclined to do so, but it seems endemic here in the last perhaps 20 years.

I've had people I know well tell me it bothers them that I never make grammatical mistakes, and that I embarrass them because I'm precise about language. I just shrug. Living in Utah, I've had to get used to very sloppy English usage, sloppy grammar, and absolutely horrendous misspellings.

The worst ones lately have been on the local news channels. Talk about needing proofreaders! Too bad I'm not wanting a job....

I know what you mean. I've had people tell me the same thing, friends even. From what I observe people who are not too nitpicky about language are seen as more approachable, and that, apparently, it makes you seem arrogant when you do care. Well, what can I say, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't bother me (and, just to be clear, I'm speaking just as much, if not more, for my native language here), just to appear in a certain way, when it is just not true. This has always been a pet peeve of mine for as long as I can remember, and I won't lie and say that it's not, just because someone might think me "pretentious" for it.

People don't have to agree with that, of course, to each their own. But I'm not going to change my opinion either, not now and not ever, even if this should become the new standard. I will still try and be as precise about everything language-related as I possibly can.

Yes, as I try to be precise no matter to whom I'm speaking (or posting....) And of course, at my age, I am certainly not going to change my opinion, or my mode of speaking/writing! Hmm. I doubt, for me, that's even possible.

Now I do admit to slangish usages sometimes when it's a one-off joking reply. I think that's "okay" for me, given the posting atmosphere here (and elsewhere).

I thought that was my local news channels problem only.. Illiterate editors, burry hosts.. What a cruel language English is - even that "burry" word contains an "r" in it. Back in my days hosts and editors were way more correct. When I was a school boy we were taught to write correctly, point. Modern youth seems to be taught to write correctly when it comes up for some documents only. I've never understood that strange psychology of feeling the necessity to write correctly business letters while making mistakes in some personal correspondence. It's like questions "Why do I have to know the multiplication table? I'm not a mathematician! It's the 21st century, we have those calculator apps in our smart phones, you know?". Things we thought were incorrect yesterday, today become standard practice. I won't be surprised to know we may officialy use those "d' Bus", "d' Karotte" instead of "der Bus" and "die Karotte" here because we might have to make it all as neutral as possible. Bluntness is everywhere. I guess you and me had to study worse in order to be less educated but also less bothered men today . It is an ancient philosophical issue: what's better, to get through life being a happy idiot or to end it up early being an unhappy genius ?

There is a modern Russian joke I've read some years ago: it's WW2, German power is supreme, a German officer (a disguised Soviet spy) Otto von Stierlitz pays a morning business visit to a high-ranking officer Heinrich Müller. Müller seems to be depressed. "Why so gloomy, gruppenführer? Have the Russians entered Berlin already?" - Stierlitz asked. "None of your little jokes, Stierlitz. I had a terrible nightmare.. I've seen some total ***. You won't believe it: I've seen Germany ruled by a female chancellor, our foreign office minister was a gay, hordes of Turkish people worked for Daimler-Benz, gay pride parades in our streets instead of the torch-light processions, we paid Greek and Spanish debts and followed orders of a black man from America, Volvo was a Chinese company, Russia was at odds with Ukraine while Germany, fancy that, Stierlitz, GERMANY begged them to abstain from fighting!". "Oh, my.. It's a total *** indeed.." - Stierlitz answered.

GenjiraX

There are so many misspellings in the game I think it's immersive.

These days I do start emails with "Hope your well... is overflowing with joy/happiness/relief etc." when someone sends me a "Hope your well."

It rattles my cage far more when the inflexion by voice actors in the game is completely at odds with what the text is saying.

Ysbriel

Maybe its a word other than the one you are thinking about.

Jaraal

GenjiraX wrote: »

There are so many misspellings in the game I think it's immersive.

These days I do start emails with "Hope your well... is overflowing with joy/happiness/relief etc." when someone sends me a "Hope your well."

It rattles my cage far more when the inflexion by voice actors in the game is completely at odds with what the text is saying.

Not only that, but occasionally the words in the text are completely different from the voice file. Very disconcerting!

barney2525

Inaya wrote: »

eklhaftb16_ESO wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

I really wonder how it is possible that so many native english speakers have such immense trouble with their own language. It's just really weird to me

That's quite simple: they're learning their language by listening to their parents, long before they even learn how to write. On the other hand, non-native speakers are learning the spoken and the written form at the same time (and some even learn solely by reading; for example, I learned my English mostly by playing Ultima )

So it is not really their fault... due to the convoluted and unpredictable nature of English spelling (reading both "g" and "j" as "dzh"; reading "c" variably as "k" or as "s"; and many other similar insanities), it is only natural they have no damn idea how to properly write down their own language.

It's their fault for being lazy and not caring. The English language is not unpredictable and though you say convoluted it really is just simple rules that once learned and memorized is not more complicated than any other.

uh huh

then why does ' sovereign ' have a frikkin G in it ?

Shardaxx

haha wow how did that get through quality control?

GenjiraX

Shardaxx wrote: »

haha wow how did that get through quality control?

Get through what, now?

daemonios

barney2525 wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

eklhaftb16_ESO wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

I really wonder how it is possible that so many native english speakers have such immense trouble with their own language. It's just really weird to me

That's quite simple: they're learning their language by listening to their parents, long before they even learn how to write. On the other hand, non-native speakers are learning the spoken and the written form at the same time (and some even learn solely by reading; for example, I learned my English mostly by playing Ultima )

So it is not really their fault... due to the convoluted and unpredictable nature of English spelling (reading both "g" and "j" as "dzh"; reading "c" variably as "k" or as "s"; and many other similar insanities), it is only natural they have no damn idea how to properly write down their own language.

It's their fault for being lazy and not caring. The English language is not unpredictable and though you say convoluted it really is just simple rules that once learned and memorized is not more complicated than any other.

uh huh

then why does ' sovereign ' have a frikkin G in it ?

Also, you could write "fish" as "ghoti" by following the rules.

"Gh" sounds like "f" in "tough";
"o" sounds like "i" in "women";
"ti" sounds like "sh" in "action".

I blame the silly English k-niggits.

Elsonso

daemonios wrote: »

Also, you could write "fish" as "ghoti" by following the rules.

"Gh" sounds like "f" in "tough";
"o" sounds like "i" in "women";
"ti" sounds like "sh" in "action".

I blame the silly English k-niggits.

English is a great language for getting naughty words past censor software. I would demonstrate, but I don't want a time out.

starkerealm

barney2525 wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

eklhaftb16_ESO wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

I really wonder how it is possible that so many native english speakers have such immense trouble with their own language. It's just really weird to me

That's quite simple: they're learning their language by listening to their parents, long before they even learn how to write. On the other hand, non-native speakers are learning the spoken and the written form at the same time (and some even learn solely by reading; for example, I learned my English mostly by playing Ultima )

So it is not really their fault... due to the convoluted and unpredictable nature of English spelling (reading both "g" and "j" as "dzh"; reading "c" variably as "k" or as "s"; and many other similar insanities), it is only natural they have no damn idea how to properly write down their own language.

It's their fault for being lazy and not caring. The English language is not unpredictable and though you say convoluted it really is just simple rules that once learned and memorized is not more complicated than any other.

uh huh

then why does ' sovereign ' have a frikkin G in it ?

Because of the Latin, "regnum," which would eventually become "reign." "Reign" was compounded into the French word, "soverain," becoming "sovereign," in Middle English. I guess we're stuck with it now.

Cundu_Ertur

starkerealm wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

eklhaftb16_ESO wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

I really wonder how it is possible that so many native english speakers have such immense trouble with their own language. It's just really weird to me

That's quite simple: they're learning their language by listening to their parents, long before they even learn how to write. On the other hand, non-native speakers are learning the spoken and the written form at the same time (and some even learn solely by reading; for example, I learned my English mostly by playing Ultima )

So it is not really their fault... due to the convoluted and unpredictable nature of English spelling (reading both "g" and "j" as "dzh"; reading "c" variably as "k" or as "s"; and many other similar insanities), it is only natural they have no damn idea how to properly write down their own language.

It's their fault for being lazy and not caring. The English language is not unpredictable and though you say convoluted it really is just simple rules that once learned and memorized is not more complicated than any other.

uh huh

then why does ' sovereign ' have a frikkin G in it ?

Because of the Latin, "regnum," which would eventually become "reign." "Reign" was compounded into the French word, "soverain," becoming "sovereign," in Middle English. I guess we're stuck with it now.

But the question is still valid: the word came from French without a 'g' but got one in English. In the early modern phase of English, there was a movement by scholars to make English more like Latin, so some words got silent letters to reflect a Latin connection: sovereign got its 'g,' debt got its 'b,' island got its 's,' and there are more examples. The funny part is that island and debt weren't derived from Latin, but were developed out of Germanic cognates to Latin words.

The root cause of English's spelling woes is that English has an orthographic system that is a hodge-podge of Anglo-Saxon, Old Norse/Viking, Norman French, Standard French, Latin, and Greek orthographies. This reflects the history of the development of the English language as a whole: Anglo-Saxon, partially creolized with Viking Norse in the Danelaw, almost fully creolized with Norman French after Billy ***'s Usurpation in 1066, modified by continued influence from Angevin and Picard royal alliances, eventually becoming Middle English. New scientific and technological developments were described with Greek and Latin words after this point, adding their own complexities.

edit to add: wait, I can't call Billy *** "Billy ***?" That's the guy's NAME. Can I call him Billy FitzRobert? It's the same thing.

Aigym_Hlervu

"Receive", "recieve".. A novice in English can make mistakes while writing, say, 8798, because it's hard not to make a misprint in those "eight thousand seven hundred ninety-eight".. German is good for it is read the same way it is written. It's hard to make a misprint when you write that 8798 as "acht­tausend­sieben­hundert­acht­und­neunzig" . Not that beautiful as "Donaudampfschifffahrtselektrizitätenhauptbetriebswerkbauunterbeamtengesellschaft" or "Rinderkennzeichnungsundrindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz" of course, but still it's not that hard to write it correctly .

The English word "misanthropy" is dull and boring, but it becomes much more cheery in German - "die Menschenfeindlichkeit". The real display of misanthropy to me is French. I've never learned it because I've never understood two things: 1. That "Muludujee tilasydusyd ladoodee rumalesee" for every phrase they say and the thing with those "Renault", "Peugeot", "Bordeaux" - three words written absolutely differently but they all sound almost the same. It's some kind of black magic..

Cundu_Ertur

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

"Receive", "recieve".. A novice in English can make mistakes while writing, say, 8798, because it's hard not to make a misprint in those "eight thousand seven hundred ninety-eight".. German is good for it is read the same way it is written. It's hard to make a misprint when you write that 8798 as "acht­tausend­sieben­hundert­acht­und­neunzig" . Not that beautiful as "Donaudampfschifffahrtselektrizitätenhauptbetriebswerkbauunterbeamtengesellschaft" or "Rinderkennzeichnungsundrindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz" of course, but still it's not that hard to write it correctly .

The English word "misanthropy" is dull and boring, but it becomes much more cheery in German - "die Menschenfeindlichkeit". The real display of misanthropy to me is French. I've never learned it because I've never understood two things: 1. That "Muludujee tilasydusyd ladoodee rumalesee" for every phrase they say and the thing with those "Renault", "Peugeot", "Bordeaux" - three words written absolutely differently but they all sound almost the same. It's some kind of black magic..

The whole string-a-bunch-of-words-together-to-make-a-single-grammatical-unit-thing is something we can do in English, but we usually use hyphens to show that we're doing that.

edit to add: while I can appreciate Menschenfeindlichkeit = People-inimical-ness, I think Fingerhut = Finger-hat = Thimble is a neat example, too. Also, English doesn't have 'enemyly' as a word, we have to use 'inimical' instead. Which is weird if you think about it.

edit later to add yet again: also you can't fairly blame us for 'misanthrope,' we stole that from the Greeks fair and square.