Dungeon certificate, and advanced tutorial

Odovacar

Kombinator wrote: »

Odovacar wrote: »

Everyone plays the game in their own way. Do you honestly think ZOS would ever even for a millisecond consider this, lol?Also, why do you care OP? Anyone halfway decent usually plays with their buddies from guilds. Perma-puging is always a route for major frustration.

By that logic we should remove dungeon finder alltogether. Also remove battlegrounds alltogether, because you can just make PVP guilds clash on Cyrodiil. Also remove quest markers, because you should read the details. We should also remove zone-chat, and guild finder, because you can just run around yelling in cities. Remove all the guild traders, because you can yell for trading stuff. Heck why even tutorial exist? Just let them figure out! Let's reduce the game as much as possible, because begging for help is SKILL!

Lol, ok m8 takerEZ

I enjoy and spend most of time helping others so I can understand your seemingly noble quest to help teach newer players the ropes through your dungeon certificate or advanced tutorial. I just simply disagree with that approach, imo.

With that being said. ZOS has placed many built-in help tutorials. Also, ESO has a plethora of content creators that make super detailed teaching videos and guides that explain the ins and outs of this ENTIRE game. Not to mention the many forms of in-game content that can act as a DPS check like vMA, etc if like your post insinuated they're unaware their damage is too low. Also, CP is just time spent not to be mistaken for how talented they're in their gameplay.

At the end of the day if a newer/sub-par player is lost they need to seek help either through players in-game i.e. a guild or manually through the internet.

zaria

phermitgb wrote: »

I'd love to see a brand new dungeon that goes through all the fundamental tactics we find in dungeons. Single boss, bosses with adds. Bosses with interrupts and blockables - bosses with red zones and red rings and anti-magic zones - all of which is tuned to very low dps, with high spikes, but no so high that they'll one-shot anyone with more than 15k health.

Basically, a trainer dungeon that has enough outgoing damage that you know when you've done something wrong, but won't kill you outright, giving you long enough to figure out each new mechanic.

to cover all the basic boss mechanics, we'd probably have to have at least 3 stages of each boss, each covering one new mechanic - we build a dungeon with 4 major bosses, that way we can get at least 12 of the most fundamental tactics, maybe even a couple of important ones more than once

It'd be light on trash - just enough trash to introduce you to the add mobs and what their tactics are like so that when you face them in a boss fight you'll already be familiar with the add swarms.

Along for the ride would be an NPC, shouting out the fundamental counter to each new mechanic - BLOCK HIS BIG ATTACK! Don't get caught in the ring of fire! INTERRUPT HIM NOW! You know, kind of like the basic combat tutorial, but...bigger stakes, and timing tuned to account for closer to an actual fight, and with multiple people.

It would not only be a nice introduction to combat in general, but a nice introduction to dungeons - throw in something like the level-up rewards, like a mid-range monster helm (not top tier, but not trash) and some set gear good for a leveling up character, and we'd have ourselves at least a better introduction to dungeoning.

Old idea of mine who go a bit more advanced, take DSA, but you have 3 NPC helpers, various stages explains various mechanics.
Fight is a scripted like vMA, if you are an DD nobody else dies unless part of the story like tank dies at one point and you have to res him, if you die, you might be ressed depend on situation,
You get trash including minibosses but this is not so important just to explain how it work, not all bosses have trash
bosses with mechanics like you say, I would rather move on to next boss, but you might get transformed bosses.

DD, healer and tank modes. Also different difficulty levels.Normal vet and vet dlc.
And yes as you say An npc like in vMA but helpful, you might also get calls from you companions, free me, res him and so on.
This will also give some training and testing ground for tanks and healers who will be scripted differently from the DD.
For tank its taunt, blocking, interrupt and pulling in, also at one point healer dies so you are on your own until an DD res him.
Healer its healing, resing, buffing, and resources add interrupt and damage some, fights are now dps races on high difficulty you have to buff and give resources or you can just heal and dps, but just healing will not work in the vet dlc difficulty.
Same as just taunting boss and blocking don'r work for tank there.

FierceSam

Browiseth wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Kombinator wrote: »

redgreensunset wrote: »

No. OP just stop pugging if getting into dungeons with people of very diverse skill levels bother you that much.

So you saying, that teaching players is bad.

Not at all. Forcing players, all players, to do something because a handful are bad, new, unskilled, etc. is though. There are better ways to teach.

I can't remember the last time I saw a dungeon where the group failed to clear it because the dps was too low. With a few exceptions there aren't many true dps checks in the dungeons. There are some, but not nearly the majority.

but i dont think OP is suggesting 'forcing' any player to do anything. OP is suggesting if a player wants to do dungeons they need to 'qualify' for it in some way

forcing would employ there is no choice for you to continue playing the video game elder scrolls online tamriel twelve without getting an A+ on your eso exam

in all fairness OP does use the word 'force' in their post but i think that's more a poor choice of words

Nope ‘forcing’ is saying “you can’t do content until I, elitemonkey, say you have the required qualification”.

Forcing is a rubbish teaching tool in a game.

If you can’t cope with players who don’t meet your standards, go find some like-minded friends and queue for your fandoms with them. Or do you need a tutorial for that?

zaria

maxjam wrote: »

I've almost got 700cp, I enjoy solo questing, crafting and occasionally messing around in Cyrodiil - I have never done a group dungeon mainly because I'd probably get called 'kinda pathetic' by people like the OP.

I'm getting to old to take things to seriously or put up with people that demand (near) flawless runs through dungeons so I really can't be bothered.

I've done some of them solo but others are either to hard for my skill level or have mechanics that require more than 1 person. I'd guess I'd like to complete them all, if for nothing else than to get the achievements but everytime I read posts like this it just makes me more wary.

Unless you do vet dlc dungeons or you are unlucky and end up in an very weak group this is hardly an problem.
Yes I have been in some very bad groups, banished cell 2 has two dps checks, learned that in normal leveling my fist tank
You have idiots who don't listen like the cabbage fight in ICP who I find fun, or one guy who wanted to do nDC2 with 11K health in an low dps group, leaving group is an option.

You have groups out on deep water, farmed Scalecaller for Jorvuld's Guidance on healer, group was all below cp160 one was below level 50. Probably horrible gear, as they had some rotation as in not spamming snipe or hard casting frag and tank taunted boss and had health but very hard to keep alive.
We disused tactics but as I did most of the dps while healing as crazy we agreed to just do another random normal who was flawless, no I did not need an random normal, I wanted the set but they was nice people.

Alpheu5

The fact that they locked the dungeons behind CP barriers has kind of annoyed me. Since the change, I've gotten less garbage runs due to CP40 DPS not knowing how to weave skills together, and more garbage runs due to CP1100+ tanks using Inner Fire on 1 mob and spamming ice staff light attacks.

I think using CP as an indicator of when someone is ready for dungeons is as silly as judging someone's swimming capabilities with how much time they spend at the beach.

kargen27

I don't think a tutorial is needed. The problem was created by player behavior and needs to be fixed by changing player behavior. Good players when they get into an easy dungeon with a group more often than not just run and carry the group whether they want to be carried or not. When a good player gets grouped with people just learning they should slow down and let the inexperienced player participate. Don't do the full damage you could so the new player gets a bit of time to actually go through some kind of rotation and get out of AoE. This is an MMO. Learning dungeon skills ultimately should come from playing with other people. Unfortunately to many forget what it is like to be inexperienced and just run ahead doing everything for the group. That is the problem that needs fixed.

Agenericname

Kombinator wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Kombinator wrote: »

redgreensunset wrote: »

No. OP just stop pugging if getting into dungeons with people of very diverse skill levels bother you that much.

So you saying, that teaching players is bad.

Not at all. Forcing players, all players, to do something because a handful are bad, new, unskilled, etc. is though. There are better ways to teach.

I can't remember the last time I saw a dungeon where the group failed to clear it because the dps was too low. With a few exceptions there aren't many true dps checks in the dungeons. There are some, but not nearly the majority.

but i dont think OP is suggesting 'forcing' any player to do anything. OP is suggesting if a player wants to do dungeons they need to 'qualify' for it in some way

forcing would employ there is no choice for you to continue playing the video game elder scrolls online tamriel twelve without getting an A+ on your eso exam

in all fairness OP does use the word 'force' in their post but i think that's more a poor choice of words

It is gating content, or more specifically gating the use of an ingame function/tool, behind the test.

Qualify is tricky. Since very few of the dungeons have an actual DPS checks, what metric are we using? Some people are never going to be happy no matter how high the DPS. Some would insist on 30k since its reasonably easy to achieve, but not specifically required to complete the content. The truth is, most of those dungeons can be completed in a reasonable amount of time with obscenely low DPS, not as obscenely low as 4 digit, but much lower than the average.

Asking for a test that forced weaving light attacks would alienate a few players. There are quite a few that play without that. ZOS has acknowledged that they here to stay for the most part by adding it to some of the load screens and designing sets around it, but mandating that they be used in order to use a basic function in group content, I highly doubt that we would see that.

I'm all for helping people, but this isn't the way. I start by asking ZOS to pay more attention to these threads and less to streamer to get a good feel for how the game actually is the next time they pick up the nerf hammer.

In my test you would given specified gear, and skillbar. Meaning, that ONLY your personal skill would matter. Nothing more, and nothing less. An NPC would be there to explain stuff, but you couldn't do it, if you have no idea how the game works, and just smash one button. No matter how much CP, level, or gear you got otherwise.

The primary problem in many case is that people has no understanding on how the game works. They fail to use all their skills, because in world content they don't have to. Why should you place debuffs, dots, buffs, if you can just 2 hit an enemy with your biggest casting skill? And has no idea what light attacks for once they got some spammable skills. I would lie if i say, that i knew this last early. It worth a LOT to the dps, and not exactly obvious.

Light attacks, for better or for worse, are part of the game. Personally, I like them, but they're not essential for any 4 person content that I am aware of. They're helpful, and the extra DPS is nice, but not absolutely required and thus shouldn't be required.

I agree that overland doesn't enforce the need to use certain skills, abilities, or actions most of the time. Some may, such as world bosses and such, but by comparison that's a small percentage of content.

The bigger issue imo is, once you've hit a certain level, 300 all of the content is available to you, however you can achieve the CP required without facing any challenge even remotely close. There's no overland content that is remotely close to the difficulty of something like vet MHK while it is possible to wander into that as your first dungeon. In other words there is no clear line of progression to work toward.

A test. if you will, to demonstrate your capability would solve that, however, without addressing the "why" it is like that, it would exclude some from content that they paid for without creating a scenario that prepares them for it. That's not a great business plan.

I do primarily dungeons when I play. Mostly the vet DLCs. Its hands down my favorite content in the game. If nothing else I would prefer that they not lose popularity. I would rather endure DPS, tanks, or healers that may not be completely up to the task than i would ZOS reduce the level of difficulty to accommodate everyone rather than give them the tools to get there.

xXMeowMeowXx

Join an established guild that runs dungeons and trials.

Make friends and get your in depth tutorial there, as well as, the achievements and bop swag.

Good guilds are a part of the social game and are a great resource for players looking to polish up their skills.

Browiseth

FierceSam wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Kombinator wrote: »

redgreensunset wrote: »

No. OP just stop pugging if getting into dungeons with people of very diverse skill levels bother you that much.

So you saying, that teaching players is bad.

Not at all. Forcing players, all players, to do something because a handful are bad, new, unskilled, etc. is though. There are better ways to teach.

I can't remember the last time I saw a dungeon where the group failed to clear it because the dps was too low. With a few exceptions there aren't many true dps checks in the dungeons. There are some, but not nearly the majority.

but i dont think OP is suggesting 'forcing' any player to do anything. OP is suggesting if a player wants to do dungeons they need to 'qualify' for it in some way

forcing would employ there is no choice for you to continue playing the video game elder scrolls online tamriel twelve without getting an A+ on your eso exam

in all fairness OP does use the word 'force' in their post but i think that's more a poor choice of words

Nope ‘forcing’ is saying “you can’t do content until I, elitemonkey, say you have the required qualification”.

Forcing is a rubbish teaching tool in a game.

If you can’t cope with players who don’t meet your standards, go find some like-minded friends and queue for your fandoms with them. Or do you need a tutorial for that?

@FierceSam it is literally not forcing. that is an incorrect use of the word 'force' in order to make your point seem more noble and liberating which is honestly quite a manipulative tactic and misrepresentation of the OP's thoughts i think

this is because nobody is 'forced' to do anything in eso. dungeons too hard? dont play em, dont like a zone? port to a different one. i actually rather like the idea of having to 'put your money where your mouth is' as it were in order to access harder content

the fact people don't like this idea actually speaks to me about how incapable a lot of players are at the game, and the idea that they may have to put effort into achieving the rewards behind difficult content frightens them

ForzaRammer

Op in case you don’t know, apparently there are lots ppl on forum who believe you should carry potatoes and not complain. And it’s elitist even if you treat mediocre players with respect and only trash talk the bottom 10%.

D0PAMINE

Kombinator wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

A tutorial would have helped. Crappy attitude from fellow players would not.

I’m not sure the “no standing in red” is a great example given the number of fights where stacking the entire group in red is actually the most effective strategy.

By "forcing" i mean, that you could not queue for dungeons until you have done the tutorial quest. Instead of the group finder there would be a button to start it. For existing players it would check how many dungeon finished achievements are done, and if the number is great enough, then you can skip it.

Even on world you should learn certain basics. Such as using skills in right order, and basic tutorial should tell you the basic attacks between skills style. As for the red circles. Like in 99% of the cases, if you see a red circle, or line in a boss fight, then you want to avoid it. Or it will hurt you real bad.

The point is, that there should be an advanced tutorial to introduce how to deal GOOD damage, and pay attention to multiple stuff. For tank teaching, to turn the boss away from group, using taunt, de importance of health shields, and different buffs/debuffs, that helps survival, when to block, and when to run/dodge. Healers would given a try to separate attention in doing damage, and keeping everyone alive.

Or we could keep it simple and just explain mechanics if the person doesn't know them. I've been doing that for years.

D0PAMINE

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Op in case you don’t know, apparently there are lots ppl on forum who believe you should carry potatoes and not complain. And it’s elitist even if you treat mediocre players with respect and only trash talk the bottom 10%.

I would be extremely surprised if there was even a single player who has never been carried through content that they were new too.

Paramedicus

I agree that it would be nice if Game put more effort to teach player about important stuff. Even basic mechanics like blocking and interrupting can be completely ignored while playing solo-content (especially when you are ranged class or tanky). I'm sure that significant part of playerbase don't even know that interrupting exists: just run few nMHKs with pugs and you will see that hardly anyone interrupts bosses or trash mobs there (despite 'obvious' reds sparks) - with low DPS group you will get many wipes there just because of that.

This could be fixed easly by making solo-content harder (but in smart way). Some quest bosses should require you to actually avoid red, block or interrupt. To not make it too hard for older or disabled players, game could just give you much more time to react (than in group content) - like 10s maybe? Some friendly NPC could also give you tips i.e. to block, when boss wind-ups his heavy attack or aoe. Group gameplay could be teached too by adding quests where you defeat boss with other NPCs and you pick your role before fight.


Other way is to add tutorials like some mentioned.

Anyway, this is just bad idea to make content too easy, so new players won't learn game mechanics organically + not adding some good in-game tutorials. Devs should decide: either increase importance of mechanics in overland or add tutorials. You can't expect that players will always learn from other players (nope, some people refuse to search youtube for videos about gameplay "because it is just a game bro, ima not nerd lol, take it EZ"), and you can't expect that people who play this game for years will have patience of saint everytime they meet player who "plays how he wants". I PUG often, I don't mind being in group which struggle (actually this may be more fun, than steamrolling content) but sometimes people are so bad and clueless + they make things harder for everyone else (i.e. pulling trash or running away from group, engaging boss without giving you time to explain tactic). Why is it "elitist" to expect that other people respect your time or gameplay experience? Demanding anything from other people is rude somehow? You think it is elitist to expect that other drivers know traffic regulations??

Kombinator

Paramedicus wrote: »

You can't expect that players will always learn from other players (nope, some people refuse to search youtube for videos about gameplay "because it is just a game bro, ima not nerd lol, take it EZ"), and you can't expect that people who play this game for years will have patience of saint everytime they meet player who "plays how he wants".

The questing method also great idea. You don't even feel it forced. It's just part of the content. Also some people simply refuse to learn, and even more refuse to ask. That one also can easily cause wipe.

But i don't remember the game explaining the importance of armor types either, and you can easily go kill stuff on world in heavy armor. Giving you the illusion, that heavy armor is good for dps. Neither i remember anyone explaining what the light, and heavy attacks for. Hell until i read some dd guide i didn't even knew either what light attacks for. I tought, that it's a last resolt, if out of resources, or early game tool, or simply to finish off an enemy for free.

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Or we could keep it simple and just explain mechanics if the person doesn't know them. I've been doing that for years.

You think we don't? You think, that i never explained mechanics, or bosses to anyone? First if you go silently, and don't ask for tactic, then i assume you know, and often that is true. Then you fail at your job 4 times, then i call you stupid. If you didn't knew the mechanics, then because you did not asked. If you knew, then because you failed.

But boss mechanics is not the only thing that makes harder for everyone. Not knowing how to deal proper damage, and wearing ligh armor with a sword also a problem. With all the customes around i don't really have the patience, and time to check everyone's gear, and i can't check their skill bars either. Also while busy doing my own part i won't have time checking why the other guy fails. And there is not one player who does in this game in every dungeon. Not a single one.

Nobody started the game knowing everything, and many has no intention to look for guides. Gating hard content to a tutorial that explains stuff would help both newbies, and inexperienced players to be better, and experienced players in farming stuff. Like seriously it's a win for everyone who plays PUG, and i can assure everyone, that there are a LOT of players who does it. As tank finding guildmates to play anything but trials takes several minutes to hours. Finding players with dungeon finder takes a second.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Sometimes a player is just bad. I’m CP 1170 and never done a single vet DLC or any of the last 4 even on normal mode. I’m just bad at the game. Five years of almost daily playing and I’m still bad at it. Thats why I only PUG, I wouldn’t knowingly inflict myself on anyone I actually know

Eliahnus

So, standing in red circles means you do not know how to play ? Good and well-equipped players know when standing in red circles will really hurt them or not. E.g. in non-DLC dungeons on normal most of the time I do not bother going out of the circle. It's very arrogant to tell other players how they should play; if you are scared of every red circle, you ought to evaluate your build instead. And perhaps your skill too.

Paramedicus

Yes, always standing in red, means you don't know how to play. If can recognize which red won't kill you and can be ignored, then it means that you know how to play.

I hope that more clarification won't be needed.

Septimus_Magna

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Sometimes a player is just bad. I’m CP 1170 and never done a single vet DLC or any of the last 4 even on normal mode. I’m just bad at the game. Five years of almost daily playing and I’m still bad at it. Thats why I only PUG, I wouldn’t knowingly inflict myself on anyone I actually know

Have you ever practiced a rotation on a target dummy?
It might not be the most exciting thing to practice but its worth every minute and potion you spend.
Focus on skill+light attack and keep the speed slow in the beginning, once you get more familiar increase the speed gradually.

It really helped me a lot to improve my dps and survivability.
When you can perform a rotation on auto-pilot it gives you more time to pay attention to the boss mechanics.

Once you get it down its like a repetitive dance for your fingers.

FierceSam

zaria wrote: »

learned that in normal leveling my fist tank

Ouch!

LOL

Kombinator

D0PAMINE wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Op in case you don’t know, apparently there are lots ppl on forum who believe you should carry potatoes and not complain. And it’s elitist even if you treat mediocre players with respect and only trash talk the bottom 10%.

I would be extremely surprised if there was even a single player who has never been carried through content that they were new too.

No player born knowing this game. And ESO is a bit more complicated, than your generic MMO. WoW, or SWTOR does not require too much intellect to be figured out. May not peak efficiency, but common sense, and a bit of reading the skills in-game is enough to be fairly good.

ESO is a bit different with the light, and heavy attacks. and 0 CD mechanism.

It's been a while, but here is a list of stuff, that was NEVER mentioned in the tutorial.

Heavy attack replenish resource instead of draining it, but the damage it deals not worth it for DPS. Use it when required. This is the exact opposite as other TES games work. In other TES games the heavy attack cost a lot, and it's about quickly kill easy enemies.

Light attack cost nothing, and has SEPARATED global cooldown from skills. Use it to increase DPS by doing a light attack between skills.

Red circles are always bad. and sometimes on strong enemies it's critical to stand out from them.

Heavy armor is for tanking, medium armor is for normal weapons, and their skills, and light armor is for staves, and magicka based skills.

The first is not obvious, but can be figured out easily. Second is far from obvious, and i would lie, if i say, that i figured out by experience. Third is obvious for anyone who played other MMO. Last one is obvious, if you bother reading the armor skills.

Naftal

Most quests and definitely all zones should have mechanics you have to do correctly or you can't continue the quest.

Dodging aoes, interrupting, small dps checks, outhealing incoming dps, grouping enemies, etc. and combinations of these.

Juomuuri

I just recently hit 1k CP, and have only ever done one DLC dungeon on veteran. My best DPS is 13k if lucky, mostly it stays around 9k. But I tend to heal or tank anyways so it doesn't matter. Many DLC dungeons have super difficult mechs, and every time I've ran into them, even on normal, none of the players know what to do, ending up wasting time. I think the best option to not have to suffer players not knowing what to do, is to never go with PUGs. A dedicated group can have one person teaching others how to do the dungeon(s).

But, having in-game tutorials on how to use the weird and crypctic mechs in dungeons would be nice, as not everyone can understand video tutorials (I for one have a lot of trouble with that).

Kombinator

PullaStormy wrote: »

I just recently hit 1k CP, and have only ever done one DLC dungeon on veteran. My best DPS is 13k if lucky, mostly it stays around 9k. But I tend to heal or tank anyways so it doesn't matter. Many DLC dungeons have super difficult mechs, and every time I've ran into them, even on normal, none of the players know what to do, ending up wasting time. I think the best option to not have to suffer players not knowing what to do, is to never go with PUGs. A dedicated group can have one person teaching others how to do the dungeon(s).

But, having in-game tutorials on how to use the weird and crypctic mechs in dungeons would be nice, as not everyone can understand video tutorials (I for one have a lot of trouble with that).

Well some basics are common in ALL dungeons. Those at least could be taught. Rest can be figured out, or have one person explain after wipe. Usually, if people are not total braindead 2 try is enough.

Don't stay in front of boss.

If something looks dangerous it usually is. So stand out from fire, lightning, and spinning blades.

Red circles, and lines are bad.

If boss turns at you, then block, and be prepared to dodge. Many boss has random target skills.

snoozy

phermitgb wrote: »

I'd love to see a brand new dungeon that goes through all the fundamental tactics we find in dungeons. Single boss, bosses with adds. Bosses with interrupts and blockables - bosses with red zones and red rings and anti-magic zones - all of which is tuned to very low dps, with high spikes, but no so high that they'll one-shot anyone with more than 15k health.

Basically, a trainer dungeon that has enough outgoing damage that you know when you've done something wrong, but won't kill you outright, giving you long enough to figure out each new mechanic.

to cover all the basic boss mechanics, we'd probably have to have at least 3 stages of each boss, each covering one new mechanic - we build a dungeon with 4 major bosses, that way we can get at least 12 of the most fundamental tactics, maybe even a couple of important ones more than once

It'd be light on trash - just enough trash to introduce you to the add mobs and what their tactics are like so that when you face them in a boss fight you'll already be familiar with the add swarms.

Along for the ride would be an NPC, shouting out the fundamental counter to each new mechanic - BLOCK HIS BIG ATTACK! Don't get caught in the ring of fire! INTERRUPT HIM NOW! You know, kind of like the basic combat tutorial, but...bigger stakes, and timing tuned to account for closer to an actual fight, and with multiple people.

It would not only be a nice introduction to combat in general, but a nice introduction to dungeons - throw in something like the level-up rewards, like a mid-range monster helm (not top tier, but not trash) and some set gear good for a leveling up character, and we'd have ourselves at least a better introduction to dungeoning.

awesome idea, i support this

Darkenarlol

someone finds 15k dps acceptable
someone thinks that 30k is laughably low
all those standards lives only in our heads

btw you can complete most vanilla vet hms
with 3-4k (or even less) total party dps...it just gonna take some time

the only problem we have with DF is people's false expectations
if you have ANY demands to your party (high dps, fast run with trash/boss skipping,
slow but steady clearing with reading dialogs and some RP between fights etc)
just ANY special demands or expectations - don't pug
or at least try to be polite and communicate with your party...or better don't pug

P.S. players who wants to become better will find a way to their goal (guild, friends, guides etc)
but people who plays for fun and have no demands for their party at all shouldn't be
forced to complete some unasked tutorials and qualify races IMO

Mettaricana

Make the undaunted daily amd key quests require you to complete a played out dungeon scenario under each role pr atleast the role you have queued that teaches aoes, dont stand in stupid gimmicks mechanics etc how to heal make it tell ya light armor with a 2 handed sword and a bow back bar does nothing to help you same as no staves and medium armor mages. Also make it show you what the stats of a beginner of that role should look like lvl 50-160 and make another quest test before you can queue for dlc dungeons showing advanced boss mechanics like purges, burn phases crap like velidreths dont move or xal nurs swamp spice. Once cleared can do dlc dungeons would help teach the keyboard rakers and i wear whatever i founders to learn something.

Kombinator

Darkenarlol wrote: »

someone finds 15k dps acceptable
someone thinks that 30k is laughably low
all those standards lives only in our heads

btw you can complete most vanilla vet hms
with 3-4k (or even less) total party dps...it just gonna take some time

the only problem we have with DF is people's false expectations
if you have ANY demands to your party (high dps, fast run with trash/boss skipping,
slow but steady clearing with reading dialogs and some RP between fights etc)
just ANY special demands or expectations - don't pug
or at least try to be polite and communicate with your party...or better don't pug

P.S. players who wants to become better will find a way to their goal (guild, friends, guides etc)
but people who plays for fun and have no demands for their party at all shouldn't be
forced to complete some unasked tutorials and qualify races IMO

In my experience there are 2 type of guilds for PVE.

One is about do whatever you want, and no expectations, or guild events. Basically just a bunch of random playing together, and finding help in farming a dungeon while quick it's barely better, than any PUG.

The other is hardcore players who laughs at you for doing anything in vet. dungeons beyond daily keys. You can ask for help for a half hour, and maybe find 2 players for anything, that isn't a trial.

But honestly as tank i find players for PuG in 2 seconds. From any type of guilds it's several minutes at best, and even then i can get rookies.

A tutorial, that teaches the basics would help literary EVERYONE. Experienced players wouldn't encounter, or at least much less time with braindead players, and newbies would learn how to be more efficient. Part of it even help overworld stuff. Currently paused the dungeon farming, because RNG drives me mad, but few days ago i wiped 7 times in White-Gold tower final boss.

I told the tactic to them 7 times, and still they died from the lightning wall, and from going to edge. One of them still attacked the boss during shield phase, and they still couldn't focus the atronach half of the time.

No offense, but i expect people to have brain, and either know english, and ask about boss tactic, or look into it themselves. Though from 7 tries common sense should be enough to figure out.

thorwyn

I seriously don't understand why people are so keen on what other people can or can not do or how good they are. If people are too slow, uncoordinated or ignorant, they will die a lot and will be kicked from groups a lot. Locking content behind a certificate of qualification is just against the spirit of the game. End game content requires more than the ability to avoid red circles or pull 15k DPS, a lot more than any "tutorial" can cover. The game will sort that out in the long run.
If you don't like playing with weak players, don't do it. If you prefer your runs smooth and fast, kick the weak spots from the group, leave the group, form your own group. At least be honest, don't try to hide your elitist attitude and your demand to preemtively filter out the scrubs from your queue.

No offense, but i expect people to have brain, and either know english, and ask about boss tactic, or look into it themselves.

Try that on EU server... good luck deciphering the incoming wall of cyrillic.

FierceSam

Kombinator wrote: »

No offense, but i expect people to have brain, and either know english, and ask about boss tactic, or look into it themselves. Though from 7 tries common sense should be enough to figure out.

Not everyone speaks English.

And sometimes explanations aren’t enough. You can know what to do, but executing it is another thing entirely. Molag Kena is a good example. You can know you need to avoid the lightning, but actually doing it reliably takes practice. Once you have the knack to do that, it feels really simple.

Bobby_V_Rockit

A repeatable solo quest from the undaunted the encourages and explains strategy and tactics?! Surely you jest!