Dungeon certificate, and advanced tutorial

Kombinator

thorwyn wrote: »

I seriously don't understand why people are so keen on what other people can or can not do or how good they are. If people are too slow, uncoordinated or ignorant, they will die a lot and will be kicked from groups a lot. Locking content behind a certificate of qualification is just against the spirit of the game. End game content requires more than the ability to avoid red circles or pull 15k DPS, a lot more than any "tutorial" can cover. The game will sort that out in the long run.
If you don't like playing with weak players, don't do it. If you prefer your runs smooth and fast, kick the weak spots from the group, leave the group, form your own group. At least be honest, don't try to hide your elitist attitude and your demand to preemtively filter out the scrubs from your queue.

No offense, but i expect people to have brain, and either know english, and ask about boss tactic, or look into it themselves.

Try that on EU server... good luck deciphering the incoming wall of cyrillic.

And as we know there is only endgame content, and overworld. There is nothing between them such as normal, and vet dungeons right? When you enter the game for the first time, then finding a guild takes 2 seconds, grinding up your blue, then purple dungeon gear is 2 hours, because as we know all the hardcore players are so eager to help you farm it, and then you can go trials.

Well in my experience the hardcore players won't give a ***** about your lower gear. Just grind it on dungeon finder and leave them to do trials. And for that having a tutorial would help everyone immensly. Also kicking out others is half solution.

First some players fails to understand the neccessity of it. I had to leave several dungeons, because they failed to realize, that the guy is braindead, and we must get rid of him. So i simply told them, that either him, or me. The other reason is just how critically slow to get players in ongoing dungeons. Once i had a group where one left on first adds. We queued for replacement, and killed 2 boss by the time we got a dps. It took 15 minutes to find a single dd! Man that healer, and dd were seriously strong.

I know, that giving quick replacement would encourage kicking players, but 15 minutes for a single dd is just ridicilous. Especially when we did not kicked anyone. I would make a 5 minutes delay, if you kicked someone to discourage such behaviour, but if someone leaves on it's own, then i would make a phased system. 1. leaver gives no delay. 2 leaver gives 3 minutes, 3. leaver gives 5, and 10 for any more.

Kombinator

FierceSam wrote: »

Kombinator wrote: »

No offense, but i expect people to have brain, and either know english, and ask about boss tactic, or look into it themselves. Though from 7 tries common sense should be enough to figure out.

Not everyone speaks English.

And sometimes explanations aren’t enough. You can know what to do, but executing it is another thing entirely. Molag Kena is a good example. You can know you need to avoid the lightning, but actually doing it reliably takes practice. Once you have the knack to do that, it feels really simple.

For the firs time i went normal. Why? Because i don't like ruining vet. player's runs for going there as a rookie. We died like 3, or 4 times. Beside me there was one rookie who had no idea about the mechanics.

But it was NORMAL! I don't expect veteran players on normal. But i expect veteran players on vet. and do you know why?

Because it's in the name. "veteran dungeon"

Mayrael

Back in the days when I was levling my undaunted guild for my PvP toons I remember at least dozen of dungs where I dragged "PvE" players through some vet dungs (soloing final vet bosses including) and never had issues with that, it is very satisfying to help people who wouldn't be able to do it on their own.

Yet it would be nice to have some optional ingame tutorials which would give us achievements (like reaching 20, 40, 60k dps), surviving certain amount of time in prepared enviorment (tanks) or healing check. Then you could share your achievements as a "certificate" when LFG. Additionaly those tutorials could give you some uniqe rewards like skin, outfit style or mount as a incentive for players to finish it: "I don't have to do it to run dungs, but this skin/outfit style/mount is so awesome that I'll do anything to have it, improving my gameplay included"

Kombinator

Mayrael wrote: »

Back in the days when I was levling my undaunted guild for my PvP toons I remember at least dozen of dungs where I dragged "PvE" players through some vet dungs (soloing final vet bosses including) and never had issues with that, it is very satisfying to help people who wouldn't be able to do it on their own.

Yet it would be nice to have some optional ingame tutorials which would give us achievements (like reaching 20, 40, 60k dps), surviving certain amount of time in prepared enviorment (tanks) or healing check. Then you could share your achievements as a "certificate" when LFG. Additionaly those tutorials could give you some uniqe rewards like skin, outfit style or mount as a incentive for players to finish it: "I don't have to do it to run dungs, but this skin/outfit style/mount is so awesome that I'll do anything to have it, improving my gameplay included"

Well using achievements would allow to give a different limitations. Specifically. You couldn't do any dungeon without having a lover difficulty achievement in group finder, and couldn't queue random vet. until you have enough normal dungeon achievement.

Normal dungeon as starter would be excluded of course. You could start any of that. Also these achievements would be account wide, and if you do it on vet. with a premade group, then you auto unlock the normal one too.

zvavi

Kombinator wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Back in the days when I was levling my undaunted guild for my PvP toons I remember at least dozen of dungs where I dragged "PvE" players through some vet dungs (soloing final vet bosses including) and never had issues with that, it is very satisfying to help people who wouldn't be able to do it on their own.

Yet it would be nice to have some optional ingame tutorials which would give us achievements (like reaching 20, 40, 60k dps), surviving certain amount of time in prepared enviorment (tanks) or healing check. Then you could share your achievements as a "certificate" when LFG. Additionaly those tutorials could give you some uniqe rewards like skin, outfit style or mount as a incentive for players to finish it: "I don't have to do it to run dungs, but this skin/outfit style/mount is so awesome that I'll do anything to have it, improving my gameplay included"

Well using achievements would allow to give a different limitations. Specifically. You couldn't do any dungeon without having a lover difficulty achievement in group finder, and couldn't queue random vet. until you have enough normal dungeon achievement.

Normal dungeon as starter would be excluded of course. You could start any of that. Also these achievements would be account wide, and if you do it on vet. with a premade group, then you auto unlock the normal one too.

I dont want that idea, especially since they seem to not want want to implement accountwide achievements. I am going to shoot my leg doing all the dlc dungeons on normal just so i can do them on vet on every character, but ye, the small solo dungeon with 3 different phases and mechanics (shouldn't be much more than two dps checks in it too, and both should be on last boss) is a pretty good idea, and depending on where you can reach you will be able to queue, and if you follow mechanics properly and can blast through in 5 minutes is even better, and sometimes will help experienced players understand if they are ready for the higher difficulty on that specific character.

Kombinator

zvavi wrote: »

Kombinator wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Back in the days when I was levling my undaunted guild for my PvP toons I remember at least dozen of dungs where I dragged "PvE" players through some vet dungs (soloing final vet bosses including) and never had issues with that, it is very satisfying to help people who wouldn't be able to do it on their own.

Yet it would be nice to have some optional ingame tutorials which would give us achievements (like reaching 20, 40, 60k dps), surviving certain amount of time in prepared enviorment (tanks) or healing check. Then you could share your achievements as a "certificate" when LFG. Additionaly those tutorials could give you some uniqe rewards like skin, outfit style or mount as a incentive for players to finish it: "I don't have to do it to run dungs, but this skin/outfit style/mount is so awesome that I'll do anything to have it, improving my gameplay included"

Well using achievements would allow to give a different limitations. Specifically. You couldn't do any dungeon without having a lover difficulty achievement in group finder, and couldn't queue random vet. until you have enough normal dungeon achievement.

Normal dungeon as starter would be excluded of course. You could start any of that. Also these achievements would be account wide, and if you do it on vet. with a premade group, then you auto unlock the normal one too.

I dont want that idea, especially since they seem to not want want to implement accountwide achievements. I am going to shoot my leg doing all the dlc dungeons on normal just so i can do them on vet on every character, but ye, the small solo dungeon with 3 different phases and mechanics (shouldn't be much more than two dps checks in it too, and both should be on last boss) is a pretty good idea, and depending on where you can reach you will be able to queue, and if you follow mechanics properly and can blast through in 5 minutes is even better, and sometimes will help experienced players understand if they are ready for the higher difficulty on that specific character.

Since i would assume, that you already done on vet. it wouldn't affect you much unless you make a new account. If you have the vet, achievement, then you would auto unlock the normal. Also it's not necessarily account wide achievements. It's more like the game checks if any of your character has the required achievement. You would still get to each character separatedly, but you would be denied, if none of them has it.

zvavi

Kombinator wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Kombinator wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Back in the days when I was levling my undaunted guild for my PvP toons I remember at least dozen of dungs where I dragged "PvE" players through some vet dungs (soloing final vet bosses including) and never had issues with that, it is very satisfying to help people who wouldn't be able to do it on their own.

Yet it would be nice to have some optional ingame tutorials which would give us achievements (like reaching 20, 40, 60k dps), surviving certain amount of time in prepared enviorment (tanks) or healing check. Then you could share your achievements as a "certificate" when LFG. Additionaly those tutorials could give you some uniqe rewards like skin, outfit style or mount as a incentive for players to finish it: "I don't have to do it to run dungs, but this skin/outfit style/mount is so awesome that I'll do anything to have it, improving my gameplay included"

Well using achievements would allow to give a different limitations. Specifically. You couldn't do any dungeon without having a lover difficulty achievement in group finder, and couldn't queue random vet. until you have enough normal dungeon achievement.

Normal dungeon as starter would be excluded of course. You could start any of that. Also these achievements would be account wide, and if you do it on vet. with a premade group, then you auto unlock the normal one too.

I dont want that idea, especially since they seem to not want want to implement accountwide achievements. I am going to shoot my leg doing all the dlc dungeons on normal just so i can do them on vet on every character, but ye, the small solo dungeon with 3 different phases and mechanics (shouldn't be much more than two dps checks in it too, and both should be on last boss) is a pretty good idea, and depending on where you can reach you will be able to queue, and if you follow mechanics properly and can blast through in 5 minutes is even better, and sometimes will help experienced players understand if they are ready for the higher difficulty on that specific character.

Since i would assume, that you already done on vet. it wouldn't affect you much unless you make a new account. If you have the vet, achievement, then you would auto unlock the normal.

Yes but for example people that mainly tank/heal sometimes cant deal damage, and vise versa, i mean, the idea is cute, but it doesn't stop players that are not ready for queuing to things they cant complete. 4h run of vBRF that they didnt even get to 3 atros, is really, really, boring as a tank. (Really). But on normal they probably could have done it.

The tutorial idea is much better tbh, and the undaunted are the best place to implement it. If you exclude people screaming that we are elitists for even wanting people that cant do mechs not to queue for things where they need to do them (while providing a way to teach to do it) there weren't even any arguments against it.

Aznarb

I don't do pug anymore except if no choice.
Not because how bad they are, we all was bad as start in our 1st vet.
But because most of them don't make a single effort to read strat or tips we write on chat.

I've started MMORPG in L2, everything was in English, mine was atrocious, but I've Internet and google.
I learned, it's easy to learn in MMORPG cuz term are mostly the same for every thing.
But most people don't put any effort and just wait to be carry.
THIS is why I don't pug.

I've a guild with a lot of low skill player who try to improve and I've no problem to run with them cuz they put effort to learn so it's fun for everyone even on difficult content for newbie like Moon hunter keep.
We've only 2 progression run session/week cuz all of us work and have family, but it's enough for them to progress.

It doesn't matter all the tutorial we got (the elsweyr one is pretty decent), they don't care.
Any people who actually care to learn gonna use google like I do in every game I enjoy.

I've seen someone speaking about CP that it's not easy and all. Why ? I've make all mine alone, calculated and tested everything I can and now I'm very close to what people use and until now, in every hm trial I never had to move them cuz they're well balanced (I only move them for vHof cuz it heurt a bit).

Player don't need ton of tutorial to improve, they just need to move their a** like every decent player did.
You don't need to be an "elite/no-life/choose the insult" to be decent/good/very good at the game, it's just, time, practice and investment.

Last, If you want a "tuto" vMaelstrom & vDSA are very good tutorial since all mechanic are here and will for you to have to paid attention and learn to progress + no need insane DPS.

zvavi

Aznarb wrote: »

I don't do pug anymore except if no choice.

This, we are trying to semi fix it. Fixing fake healers. fixing fake tanks. fixing fake dds. helping the community. I agree that vMA is a great tutorial. and i recommend all damage dealers to pass it. Since i passed it at around 370~ cp i can say that i undeniably got much better in the spawn of few days i did it.
But i wouldn't put it as a requirement for queuing for dungeons. Healers exist, tanks exist, dds that dont self heal exist, etc.

I mean ye sure, most players that are qualified yo do the vDLC are those who decided to "move their a**es" as you said, but providing a way for players to learn without external help, fixing a bit fake healers dds and tanks, and allowing people to queue for few roles on one character is all good things that can be done with the tutorial idea, and i think is healthy for the game.

Waynerx8

Kombinator wrote: »

I don't know how, but i see so many people with high champion level, and skill of a newbie. I mean these guys reached over 300 champion level without ever doing dungeons, or bought their accounts. Regardless it would be nice to put some quest, that forces you at least once on an account through an advanced tutorial.

Stuff like standing out from the red circles, and how to deal proper dps using skills+light attack, and a test, that you understood. When i see a DD dealing 6k. dps with over 200 champion level it's kinda pathetic. I can do 4k. in my tank gear, and skillset to single target, if no self defense required.

How about we stop telling people what they need to do, it's a game, they paid for it, don't like go do something else, really would like to know what type of people they are in the real world given this type of attitude.

ThePlayer

The only 2 ways to complete the dlc veteran dungeons at the moment are:

1) have a lot of luck and find suitable players;
2) form a group of players capable of completing veteran dlc.

The dungeons system does not work, as you say you would need dungeons certificates, because often there are players who have never completed vet Fungal Grotto 2 (even 1) in the veteran dlc, this is too stupid and the game should have a training dungeons similar to the one present in FF14 but further improved.

Donny_Vito

ThePlayer wrote: »

The only 2 ways to complete the dlc veteran dungeons at the moment are:

1) have a lot of luck and find suitable players;
2) form a group of players capable of completing veteran dlc.

The dungeons system does not work, as you say you would need dungeons certificates, because often there are players who have never completed vet Fungal Grotto 2 (even 1) in the veteran dlc, this is too stupid and the game should have a training dungeons similar to the one present in FF14 but further improved.

I'm not sure I would blame the dungeon system, or peoples expectations. The Vet DLCs are not made for everyone and some people just cannot understand that. Not everything in this game needs to be completed, nor should it be, by every single player.

Kombinator

ThePlayer wrote: »

The only 2 ways to complete the dlc veteran dungeons at the moment are:

1) have a lot of luck and find suitable players;
2) form a group of players capable of completing veteran dlc.

The dungeons system does not work, as you say you would need dungeons certificates, because often there are players who have never completed vet Fungal Grotto 2 (even 1) in the veteran dlc, this is too stupid and the game should have a training dungeons similar to the one present in FF14 but further improved.

That's the point of blocking greater content behind certain stuff. If you don't improve, then you can't do it. It's like a driving license. If you don't go through all the tests, and certificitates, then you can't legally drive.

You don't need that much luck though. Usually around 1 from 6 is a total lost, and 1 from 5 is a steamroll. Everything else is somewhere in-between. That means we can do it SLOWLY.

A tutorial would reduce the 1 from 6 part, because truly braindead people couldn't even finish the tutorial. They would be DENIED from going into vet. dungeons. If they don't like to put effort, then they shouldn't ruin others' game. And it would help the in-between by improving the raw power of players by knowing what should they do. Even if it's not on the pro hardcore below 0,001s., and 0% error rate. So instead of that 4k. dps we would have an 8k. at least. The healer wouldn't stand around jerking off while the pro tank takes all the damage but instead would help the dd a bit.

victory.immortalb16_ESO

A tutorial running through dungeon mechanics would be a great idea. However, it shouldn't be a requirement or a need to pass it before entering vet dungeons- some people are just better at learning in real life situations than in simulators.

As for myself, I'm in the mid 650's, mainly log in to do one daily atm, finished undaunted without ever going into a dungeon (just be doing dailies), haven't done dungeons at all yet, and know none of the mechanics.

But having said that, I wouldn't dream of joining a non-guild vet anything or pugging anything without first learning the mechanics of my role by watching some videos of runs through and grasping the basics of the mechanics and pumping up my DPS. Failing to prepare is preparing to fail.

I'm just not that interested at the moment. Maybe when I hit 810 I'll start...

Donny_Vito

victory.immortalb16_ESO wrote: »

A tutorial running through dungeon mechanics would be a great idea. However, it shouldn't be a requirement or a need to pass it before entering vet dungeons- some people are just better at learning in real life situations than in simulators.

As for myself, I'm in the mid 650's, mainly log in to do one daily atm, finished undaunted without ever going into a dungeon (just be doing dailies), haven't done dungeons at all yet, and know none of the mechanics.

But having said that, I wouldn't dream of joining a non-guild vet anything or pugging anything without first learning the mechanics of my role by watching some videos of runs through and grasping the basics of the mechanics and pumping up my DPS. Failing to prepare is preparing to fail.

I'm just not that interested at the moment. Maybe when I hit 810 I'll start...

Words to live by.

I am always amazed when I get someone in a PUG that has no clue about mechanics, especially in Vet DLCs. You don't see that person say..."hey guys, I don't know the mechanics, can you teach me?" They continue on and want to hurt the group while they just learn as they go. If this is a normal dungeon or a base-game vet dungeon, then fine. No big deal. But failing to prepare for a Vet DLC is hurting your other players as well, and I'm not sure how people can just do that. You can Google 'How do I complete {X} dungeon" and within 5 minutes you'll have read all the mechanics on the fight to at least give a competitive try. Or ask a guild mate to teach you. Or ask a friend to teach you. Or go into normal and learn the mechanics. Or as a last resort ask in group chat for help.

MEBengalsFan2001

Here is an idea that could improve the game dungeon system and provide players the ability to complete the dungeon solo from the story side that many are asking the developers to provide in game.

You have a solo instance for each dungeon that is based on the role the player has selected. That solo instance takes the player through the dungeon, teaches the player the mechanics needed for the boss fights by the selected role, etc... If you beat the solo instance the normal dungeon unlocks for you and a solo veteran instance unlocks. To unlock the Vet dungeon you have to beat the veteran solo instance.

This now ensures that damage dealers, healers and tanks have at least completed a solo dungeon that illustrates the role and what is expected for that role in the dungeon. Each role also will have to go back and show they can do the solo veteran level of the dungeon to open up the veteran dungeon.

Adding this to the game would provide players the solo dungeon story instance many are asking the developers to create and it would provide the training that is needed for each dungeon.

It gets better. If you change your role from damage dealer to healer, you would have to rerun the solo instance since playing as a healer is different than being a damage dealer. etc...

During the solo instance it will provide ques on what each role should do. Such as it will put up text telling the healer that they have to run a HoT now to ensure that the DD and tank don't die. For tanks it will tell you to taunt the boss, what to look for to stop a specific attack that may target a DD or a healer, etc.. For DD there would be teaching of mechanics on when to block, dodge roll, etc.. for the Veteran solo it adds a DPS check to ensure that the damage dealer is doing enough damage to be in the Vet Dungeon.

This update would impact all players old and new, even if you beat the dungeon 1,000 times. You still would have to go through the solo instance. A great example of how this could be implemented is that the first undaunted quest is simply go to X dungeon and return. Instead, the quest would be go to X dungeon and beat the solo and return once completed.

Maybe this is something that can be considered and added after they ZoS finishes their updates to improve system performance.

AlnilamE

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Here is an idea that could improve the game dungeon system and provide players the ability to complete the dungeon solo from the story side that many are asking the developers to provide in game.

You have a solo instance for each dungeon that is based on the role the player has selected. That solo instance takes the player through the dungeon, teaches the player the mechanics needed for the boss fights by the selected role, etc... If you beat the solo instance the normal dungeon unlocks for you and a solo veteran instance unlocks. To unlock the Vet dungeon you have to beat the veteran solo instance.

This now ensures that damage dealers, healers and tanks have at least completed a solo dungeon that illustrates the role and what is expected for that role in the dungeon. Each role also will have to go back and show they can do the solo veteran level of the dungeon to open up the veteran dungeon.

Adding this to the game would provide players the solo dungeon story instance many are asking the developers to create and it would provide the training that is needed for each dungeon.

It gets better. If you change your role from damage dealer to healer, you would have to rerun the solo instance since playing as a healer is different than being a damage dealer. etc...

During the solo instance it will provide ques on what each role should do. Such as it will put up text telling the healer that they have to run a HoT now to ensure that the DD and tank don't die. For tanks it will tell you to taunt the boss, what to look for to stop a specific attack that may target a DD or a healer, etc.. For DD there would be teaching of mechanics on when to block, dodge roll, etc.. for the Veteran solo it adds a DPS check to ensure that the damage dealer is doing enough damage to be in the Vet Dungeon.

This update would impact all players old and new, even if you beat the dungeon 1,000 times. You still would have to go through the solo instance. A great example of how this could be implemented is that the first undaunted quest is simply go to X dungeon and return. Instead, the quest would be go to X dungeon and beat the solo and return once completed.

Maybe this is something that can be considered and added after they ZoS finishes their updates to improve system performance.

I'm sorry, but this is an MMO. I don't want group content locked behind solo content. If I want to spent time killing things by myself, I can go run vMA, which I've never completed because it's too boring and annoying.

MorganaLaVey

.

Nerouyn

Kombinator wrote: »

I don't know how, but i see so many people with high champion level, and skill of a newbie. I mean these guys reached over 300 champion level without ever doing dungeons, or bought their accounts. Regardless it would be nice to put some quest, that forces you at least once on an account through an advanced tutorial.

Stuff like standing out from the red circles, and how to deal proper dps using skills+light attack, and a test, that you understood. When i see a DD dealing 6k. dps with over 200 champion level it's kinda pathetic. I can do 4k. in my tank gear, and skillset to single target, if no self defense required.

I'm laughing.

Hard.

Wildstar made this very mistake. Look at how it worked out for them. They're now dead.

Players don't need to be "taught" how to do dungeon - aka rat-in-a-maze - content.

The developers need to stop desperately trying to force players into content they don't want to play, with tickets, holiday achievements, housing unlocks etc.

Do that and those poor souls who enjoy being rats in a maze could do so only with other like minded souls.

Kombinator

Nerouyn wrote: »

Kombinator wrote: »

I don't know how, but i see so many people with high champion level, and skill of a newbie. I mean these guys reached over 300 champion level without ever doing dungeons, or bought their accounts. Regardless it would be nice to put some quest, that forces you at least once on an account through an advanced tutorial.

Stuff like standing out from the red circles, and how to deal proper dps using skills+light attack, and a test, that you understood. When i see a DD dealing 6k. dps with over 200 champion level it's kinda pathetic. I can do 4k. in my tank gear, and skillset to single target, if no self defense required.

I'm laughing.

Hard.

Wildstar made this very mistake. Look at how it worked out for them. They're now dead.

Players don't need to be "taught" how to do dungeon - aka rat-in-a-maze - content.

The developers need to stop desperately trying to force players into content they don't want to play, with tickets, holiday achievements, housing unlocks etc.

Do that and those poor souls who enjoy being rats in a maze could do so only with other like minded souls.

I wouldn't force this upon those who don't want dungeons, but if you press on the dungeon finder, then that tutorial is the first thing you should go through once in an account.

Bradyfjord

Content in mmo's is designed around mechanics. So, for dungeon/trial certifications to hold any meaning the player would need specific certifications for each mechanic in question. Basically, if you have all the achievements from the content in question, then you have been 'certified'. There is no other benchmark to know if a player can handle any specific dungeon/trial mechanics but to see it for themselves. And even that can be cheesed if a player is carried (friends/paid runs).

That said, all it takes to learn mechanics is to play more. And this is why dedicated groups are always superior in every way. Even when a dedicated group of friends is having an off day, it is still fun for them because they are enjoying each others' company. This is something beyond the scope of automated systems designed to facilitate solo play styles in group oriented content.

That said, I don't wish players a bad time. The best thing for a person that pugs a lot is to set up a discord server, and invite pug players into their voice server. This facilitates communication, and can do wonders to overcome challenges in game.

zvavi

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Content in mmo's is designed around mechanics. So, for dungeon/trial certifications to hold any meaning the player would need specific certifications for each mechanic in question. Basically, if you have all the achievements from the content in question, then you have been 'certified'. There is no other benchmark to know if a player can handle any specific dungeon/trial mechanics but to see it for themselves. And even that can be cheesed if a player is carried (friends/paid runs).

That said, all it takes to learn mechanics is to play more. And this is why dedicated groups are always superior in every way. Even when a dedicated group of friends is having an off day, it is still fun for them because they are enjoying each others' company. This is something beyond the scope of automated systems designed to facilitate solo play styles in group oriented content.

That said, I don't wish players a bad time. The best thing for a person that pugs a lot is to set up a discord server, and invite pug players into their voice server. This facilitates communication, and can do wonders to overcome challenges in game.

A lot of mechanics for dds are focus specific add, dont stand in specific red, interrupt, block an attack, dodge an attack, dps check, kite adds to stack. Those 7 are generally base knowledge when it comes to dlc dungeons, and i think all dlc dungeons have at least 5 of them every dungeon, and i think asking dds to be able to do at least those things, is not too much.

Kombinator

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Content in mmo's is designed around mechanics. So, for dungeon/trial certifications to hold any meaning the player would need specific certifications for each mechanic in question. Basically, if you have all the achievements from the content in question, then you have been 'certified'. There is no other benchmark to know if a player can handle any specific dungeon/trial mechanics but to see it for themselves. And even that can be cheesed if a player is carried (friends/paid runs).

That said, all it takes to learn mechanics is to play more. And this is why dedicated groups are always superior in every way. Even when a dedicated group of friends is having an off day, it is still fun for them because they are enjoying each others' company. This is something beyond the scope of automated systems designed to facilitate solo play styles in group oriented content.

That said, I don't wish players a bad time. The best thing for a person that pugs a lot is to set up a discord server, and invite pug players into their voice server. This facilitates communication, and can do wonders to overcome challenges in game.

There are certain rules, that are common in like 90% of the case, and not critical fail if you do it in other 9%.

Simple rules are:

Adds are priority over boss. Certain bosses can be rushed without it, but i don't know a single one where doing such means critical fail.

If something looks dangerous, then usually it is. Red circles are almost always dangerous.

If boss turns at you, then block, and be ready to dodge. Some boss abilities are random targeted. Does not apply if boss ignores taunt in general, but you can see that in the individual fight.

The method of doing dps is same for not just all bosses, but to all content in general. Doing effectively helps on world content as well. And for some bosses it is critical, that you deal more, than 4k. as dd.

Learning about a few useful skills as tank also great for tanks. Such as the pulling skill from warrior's guild, the ranged taunt from Undaunted, and the importance of health, and health shields.

In general a few tips about the equipment you should wear. Such as wear light armor as healer/spell dps. For some this is just common sense, but not for everyone.

stevenyaub16_ESO

I see alot of people saying they play for fun and that they don't want to invest the time etc. Which is totally fine.

But what the OP suggests can't hurt the game but instead gives players an in-game tool to help guide players and build confidence.

So the question is why not have some sort of advanced endgame tutorial?

One reason I can think of is DD training
being a problem. If explained well, It's not the most pleasant experience at first glance and I could imagine it being both visually and mechanically jarring for alot of players. It's one of the most decisive issue that splits the playerbase.

The other is that tanking almost a different game from non-DLC to vet DLC. It really changes everything you thought about tanking once you step over that threshold.

Paramedicus

All this talk, and reading some older topics about same issue made me wonder why ZoS never fixed this. I don't believe they are that lazy, so probably it will be never changed because tutorials etc would be contrary to the idea of "play how you want". ZoS must be afraid that adding more clear and direct hints about gameplay, would shatter this illusion of being able to play this game with your ill-considered, quester build and tourist-like attitude. I don't call this attitude 'casual', because 'casual' doesnt imply being deliberately thoughtless about gameplay. Some players really don't get that this is multiplayer game and you shouldn't try to ruin other people experience, because you want to "explore" vet dung with your "tank" w/o taunt, but with two handed weapons both bar (because they look cool). And if some other players dare to admit that they would vote-kick this "tank", you gonna see those tourists calling them "elitist" etc. Sometimes they even write directly that they are entitled to play "how they want" because they paid for game (as other players were ZoS eployeers or room service?). And discussing ideas about making overland harder, adding tutorials or locking some content is similar offense I guess.

So it seems that devs became hostages of their own promises and nothing will be changed.

FierceSam

Kombinator wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Kombinator wrote: »

No offense, but i expect people to have brain, and either know english, and ask about boss tactic, or look into it themselves. Though from 7 tries common sense should be enough to figure out.

Not everyone speaks English.

And sometimes explanations aren’t enough. You can know what to do, but executing it is another thing entirely. Molag Kena is a good example. You can know you need to avoid the lightning, but actually doing it reliably takes practice. Once you have the knack to do that, it feels really simple.

For the firs time i went normal. Why? Because i don't like ruining vet. player's runs for going there as a rookie. We died like 3, or 4 times. Beside me there was one rookie who had no idea about the mechanics.

But it was NORMAL! I don't expect veteran players on normal. But i expect veteran players on vet. and do you know why?

Because it's in the name. "veteran dungeon"

If only normal dungeons prepared players for the vet ones....

But they don’t.

If only one vet dungeon prepared players for all the other vet dungeons....

But they don’t.

If only players who’d got so used to doing a particular dungeon that they found it ‘easy’ would remember the time when they didn’t....

But they don’t.

So here we are.