PvP / Combat talk on the forums, just PM the devs instead.

Wing

know the audience on the forums, know its not going to end well, and just bypass it altogether.

most combat minded people here that play PvP are most likely in the mindset of a small man group (or small raid) and thus you can easily base reactions to ideas with that being the base that your talking too.

if you say:

"small groups need more tools to deal with zergs!"
upvote

"bring back dynamic ult gen!"
upvote

"remove cast times from ultimates!"
upvote

"remove hard CC's!"
upvote

etc.

if you say:

"animation canceling is dumb!"
downvote

"I think BG solo only is a good idea and im looking forward to it!"
downvote

etc.


it all comes down to what is skillful and competitive at the time and in the mindset of the base. people would argue things like animation canceling is skillful because it requires some amount of effort to accomplish, others would argue its not competitive because your essentially trying to hide / cheat what your doing to avoid giving your opponent a chance to react, so skillful, and yet not competitive.

same time you see things like hard CC's come up, most long term pvp players passively block or do things like spam dodge rolls, thus the things that are designed to counter those mechanics (hard CC's, channels, etc) are seen as skill less or dumb, when in fact they are quite completive as that is their intended function to counter a specific action, that it just so happens people might be relying on.

I can animation cancel pretty flawlessly on my stam DK, as its been my main since beta and I just have its timings ingrained from constant use, and when I go to something that has a much harder rotation that either has no weave or a slow weave, do notice and feel the lack of speed and damage.



all that being said.


PVP in ESO is a complete mess right now.

animation canceling does require the innate skill and understanding of game mechanics to pull off, things that are not taught in the game and only perfected through repetition and understanding as well as research from secondary sources and knowledge of how the game prioritizes ability use behind the scenes. it is no coincidence that the majority of players in cyro or PVP are all CP 1000+

it is impossible for a new player of any sort to have a chance to against a seasoned player
(this should be obvious, but the more skill a game requires, the larger and more insurmountable the gap, and thus, the inability to gain new players.)

add to that things like sets and classes were usually experienced players run an awkward combination of sets that provide untended outcomes to gain an advantage. its not talked about, for good reason obviously, but when you see a patch note that's like "fixed X on some obscure set that nobody looked at, talked about, or used." and then all the comments are PvP'ers screaming about "it was fine why are you doing this stop removing options!" etc. and everyone else is just like ". . .what?"

and then we have a crappy ult dump meta on top of it, where groups of any size just kite around until they have ultimate's and proceed to ult dumb some poor sucker that didn't know any better. this has ingrained itself into a meta within ESO itself of:

you can only kill someone, when they cannot fight back.

and thus people build for it, around it, because of it, etc.

small mans group so they can focus down individuals
players use hard CC's because its the only chance to get a kill because people have a brief window of not fighting back
players stack health, mitigation, and healing so they can survive the inevitable window of not being able to fight back so that they CAN fight back
players support animation canceling because they need the edge to actually get kills and cannot afford a system where players can fight back
zergs get bigger so players have a chance to actually fight back
burst becomes the ONLY thing that matters so that players cannot fight back
ult dumping becomes a thing so that victims cannot fight back
players don't want animations because then people can fight back
people build troll tanks because its fun to watch people be unable to fight back
etc.
etc.

most people don't actually want a competitive game, they want to win, that's why things like the ult bomb meta exist, its not really skillful, and it avoids any sort of competitive interaction, but you win. people might hide behind "it requires skill!" when some is required and its a legitimate pillar to defend their way to win, but that's not the same thing as competitive. that's why we call things "cheese"

and its not one thing in ESO, they need to fix:
CP
blocking
certain sets
performance
animations (if they do intend for it to be competitive)
etc.


TL/DR: ESO pvp is a mess.

WldKarde

And that's why I mostly repair walls...

I enjoy PvP...but I seem to get more AP consistently by just doing the above or capturing resources.

ZarkingFrued

Gonna be honest, sounds like you need to play something else

Rave the Histborn

Hey guys remember dont talk about things because some people can't handle it so it's best if we ignore it all together for them.

No.

Wing

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Gonna be honest, sounds like you need to play something else

I play quite a few games, from space trucking sims like elite dangerous to ESO to Forza to shooters etc. I really enjoy games for what they are and try to figure them out from a design perspective too.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Hey guys remember dont talk about things because some people can't handle it so it's best if we ignore it all together for them.

No.

not at all, just posting discussions like "animation canceling is dumb" in a forum where most people will support it (animation canceling) and thus do everything in their power to belittle any point you could make (and the person making it) is silly.

as they say, complain up, I personally PM Brian and Rich about stuff on occasion and try to bring up facts to support my points, sometimes I actually get responses on the subject to the effect of "yeah we were looking at this and working on it internally too."

is always better to complain up, and better still when those above notice it too.

KillsAllElves

Bad players will always be bad players, case in point this thread!!!

Wing

KillsAllElves wrote: »

Bad players will always be bad players, case in point this thread!!!

and this here ladies in gentleman is a classic tactic employed by people that don't really have an argument or defense.

notice he targeted me, the OP, rather then any particular argument or perhaps provide some kind of counter point with facts.

no the tactic is to belittle, berate, insult, or otherwise make look foolish the poster (me) and thus undermine any valid argument that I might make.

for instance if you call in to question animations, and a response would be "I bet you cannot animation cancel" its not an argument of facts, but rather a jab at the author in an attempt to draw them into a personal attack and trap them there.

"no I can animation cancel fine, here is proof *links a video*

they took the bait and fell for the personal attack and had to defend themselves, as you would do in the heat of the moment, HOWEVER, their video has a bad weave in it and is playing a cheese off meta class, this did not help.

"see look at that, cannot weave, needs to learn to play, lulz!"

and most will agree with the personal attack in this situation, because who would stand in front of the form firing squad and look foolish, thus, the original argument, while possibly completely valid was seen as silly, because of personal attacks.

for instance

the poster I quoted is clearly a pvp player, thanks to the pact emblem and name "killsallelves" and clearly hates AD, from this I can surmise and personal attack that he is probably one of the players holding block in his ball group with 35k hp (at minimum) is probably amazing at Xv1, almost never dies when he is with his zerg, and is amazing both at stacking on crown and using his ultimate ability WHEN he is told to.

tada

MartiniDaniels

All of this is caused by lack of any MMR. In other games when more skilled players kills less skilled (by MMR measurement) by creating new accounts or purposefully dropping their MMR it is frowned upon. Nobody considers "smurfs" as good players or any kind of example. In ESO it is praised.
I bet there were ton proposed solutions even for Cyro. Just create MMR ranks and assign them depending of K:D ratio. Mark each kill or death only if 85%+ of damage was done by one player. Give higher AP gains to higher ranks, and for killing higher ranks while consistently lower AP for killing players of lower rank. Show rank on player's alliance shield icon. Problem solved. When Rank10 will be killing Rank1 on video it will be clear that he is slaying newbies and there will be no honor in that as well as no AP.

Raisin

I can handle that. Just need to set a timer and throw a "The message above me is ignorant and the sender needs to L2P" at the devs every few minutes

Edit: Oh wait. Despite the title this is actually just a thread about discussing PVP/combat in the thread. Got confused, sorry.

KillsAllElves

Its obvious you dont like a certain activity in eso. No matter how hard you try to justify your pathetic notions it wont change the fact that PvP'rs are able to use the forums just like the whiney questers are aboe to.

Dont go to pvp if you hate it, or go play another game!

JumpmanLane

Wing wrote: »

know the audience on the forums, know its not going to end well, and just bypass it altogether.

most combat minded people here that play PvP are most likely in the mindset of a small man group (or small raid) and thus you can easily base reactions to ideas with that being the base that your talking too.

if you say:

"small groups need more tools to deal with zergs!"
upvote

"bring back dynamic ult gen!"
upvote

"remove cast times from ultimates!"
upvote

"remove hard CC's!"
upvote

etc.

if you say:

"animation canceling is dumb!"
downvote

"I think BG solo only is a good idea and im looking forward to it!"
downvote

etc.


it all comes down to what is skillful and competitive at the time and in the mindset of the base. people would argue things like animation canceling is skillful because it requires some amount of effort to accomplish, others would argue its not competitive because your essentially trying to hide / cheat what your doing to avoid giving your opponent a chance to react, so skillful, and yet not competitive.

same time you see things like hard CC's come up, most long term pvp players passively block or do things like spam dodge rolls, thus the things that are designed to counter those mechanics (hard CC's, channels, etc) are seen as skill less or dumb, when in fact they are quite completive as that is their intended function to counter a specific action, that it just so happens people might be relying on.

I can animation cancel pretty flawlessly on my stam DK, as its been my main since beta and I just have its timings ingrained from constant use, and when I go to something that has a much harder rotation that either has no weave or a slow weave, do notice and feel the lack of speed and damage.



all that being said.


PVP in ESO is a complete mess right now.

animation canceling does require the innate skill and understanding of game mechanics to pull off, things that are not taught in the game and only perfected through repetition and understanding as well as research from secondary sources and knowledge of how the game prioritizes ability use behind the scenes. it is no coincidence that the majority of players in cyro or PVP are all CP 1000+

it is impossible for a new player of any sort to have a chance to against a seasoned player
(this should be obvious, but the more skill a game requires, the larger and more insurmountable the gap, and thus, the inability to gain new players.)

add to that things like sets and classes were usually experienced players run an awkward combination of sets that provide untended outcomes to gain an advantage. its not talked about, for good reason obviously, but when you see a patch note that's like "fixed X on some obscure set that nobody looked at, talked about, or used." and then all the comments are PvP'ers screaming about "it was fine why are you doing this stop removing options!" etc. and everyone else is just like ". . .what?"

and then we have a crappy ult dump meta on top of it, where groups of any size just kite around until they have ultimate's and proceed to ult dumb some poor sucker that didn't know any better. this has ingrained itself into a meta within ESO itself of:

you can only kill someone, when they cannot fight back.

and thus people build for it, around it, because of it, etc.

small mans group so they can focus down individuals
players use hard CC's because its the only chance to get a kill because people have a brief window of not fighting back
players stack health, mitigation, and healing so they can survive the inevitable window of not being able to fight back so that they CAN fight back
players support animation canceling because they need the edge to actually get kills and cannot afford a system where players can fight back
zergs get bigger so players have a chance to actually fight back
burst becomes the ONLY thing that matters so that players cannot fight back
ult dumping becomes a thing so that victims cannot fight back
players don't want animations because then people can fight back
people build troll tanks because its fun to watch people be unable to fight back
etc.
etc.

most people don't actually want a competitive game, they want to win, that's why things like the ult bomb meta exist, its not really skillful, and it avoids any sort of competitive interaction, but you win. people might hide behind "it requires skill!" when some is required and its a legitimate pillar to defend their way to win, but that's not the same thing as competitive. that's why we call things "cheese"

and its not one thing in ESO, they need to fix:
CP
blocking
certain sets
performance
animations (if they do intend for it to be competitive)
etc.


TL/DR: ESO pvp is a mess.

I agree with what you’re saying except for one thing. It’s not that folks want to win. It’s more they are afraid to die.

It’s not just PvP either...good thread.

D0PAMINE

tbh, im not so sure the devs like the majority of us on here.

Kadoin

Don't forget, players also gravitate towards the most buggy CCs and OP skills they can find, like accelerating drain...

Iskiab

Yea, I basicly agree. Thing is all pvp games since the beginning of time follow the same pattern:

PvP - what wins is burst and cc
PvE - what wins is dots

ESO isn’t much different.

peacenote

I think performance needs to be fixed first or not much else really matters. There is no way to be competitive when the screen slows to a stutter.

After that I think the next thing to focus on would be improving MMR as mentioned earlier in this thread.

I do think it is a bit short sighted to assume that all opinions are binary and that someone expressing an opinion against something considered "required for competitive PvP" is automatically against improving it.

I for one am extremely unhappy with the BG Solo only option. I have posted reasons, as have many others, and most of us would be happy with any kind of accommodation (such as multiple queues) to continue to enjoy BGs. It doesn't mean I am against improving PvP or BGs and if folks immediately dismiss alternative opinions they are, ironically, doing exactly what they feel is being done to them. There is almost ALWAYS more than one way to skin a cat.

We all should try to look at the bigger picture.

When it comes to PvP I think it means two things:

1) Realizing that unless there is a drastic change to ESO, PvP and PvE are always going to be somewhat intertwined (can use the same sets, etc.), and the best solutions to issues are ones that don't sacrifice one type of play over the other. When the developers do not do this and/or don't explain their actions you will see one side raise opinions. That doesn't mean they are against the other style of play but that they want to continue enjoying some other aspect of the game that is being unnecessarily impacted. It shouldn't be a "vs" as many players enjoy both PvP and PvE but it can feel this way when changes negatively impact one side.

2) Realizing that it is better for the long term health of the game when there are inroads into both styles of play for less experienced players. Those of us longtime veterans may have to accept (and should advocate for) certain features, as we sometimes overlook or forget how we ourselves were tempted to first step into a dungeon or Cyrodiil.

Tandor

There's no problem with people putting PvP combat stuff on the forums, but they need to put it on the PvP Combat and Skills forum, not the General Discussion one. Which forum do people think the PvP devs have time to read - hint, it's not this one!

Donny_Vito

as they say, complain up, I personally PM Brian and Rich about stuff on occasion and try to bring up facts to support my points, sometimes I actually get responses on the subject to the effect of "yeah we were looking at this and working on it internally too."

They are thinking now....why did he just name drop us?!? Their inbox is about to get flooded

KillsAllElves

D0PAMINE wrote: »

tbh, im not so sure the devs like the majority of us on here.

Theyre the ones who create the problems we have.

However bad players shouldnt come to the forums and cry about stupid subjects and then tell decent or good players not to come to tye forums and complain even though most decent players complaints are legitimate.

The OP cleaarly thinks the forum should only be used by questers and other socialites.

Rave the Histborn

Wing wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Gonna be honest, sounds like you need to play something else

I play quite a few games, from space trucking sims like elite dangerous to ESO to Forza to shooters etc. I really enjoy games for what they are and try to figure them out from a design perspective too.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Hey guys remember dont talk about things because some people can't handle it so it's best if we ignore it all together for them.

No.

not at all, just posting discussions like "animation canceling is dumb" in a forum where most people will support it (animation canceling) and thus do everything in their power to belittle any point you could make (and the person making it) is silly.

as they say, complain up, I personally PM Brian and Rich about stuff on occasion and try to bring up facts to support my points, sometimes I actually get responses on the subject to the effect of "yeah we were looking at this and working on it internally too."

is always better to complain up, and better still when those above notice it too.

Those aren't answers, those are canned responses