Raise the DoT Standard

Derra

satanio wrote: »

They cannot, or otherwise PvE meta will shift into only dots rotations and many would weep.

Here we have it guys, because of oversaturation of dots we cannot have nice dot skills.

Not really - the issue with 2.5 dotstandard in scalebreaker was dots on average being between 8 and 10s duration.

However zos did not only lower the dot standard but they also increased dot duration by 2 to 4 seconds depending on which dot you use - which is the right move regarding pve because even with a higher dot standard it would prevent dot only rotations.
This obviously creates issues again regarding pvp and purges...

wastelandexplorer1

I agree make my stam dk a god again I ran claw breath carve blood craze and maelstrom axe back bar ad master axe front bar nothing live

TheFM

Nyladreas wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

All dot damage should go through armor or something like that. "BOOM - TANK META DEAD."

Bleeds went through armor. People cried to get it nerfed.

That's why we need a simple system increasing dot damage significantly the more defense you have. EZ PZ.

Feels like I'm speaking alien language whenever I bring the idea up though.

Resistances aren't the issue, it's the constant and easy a cess to major and minor protection

StShoot

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

DoTs dumb down combat. I'd rather them address the tank meta in a way that doesn't further reduce the skill ceiling.

yeah but since we have a classspec in this game that is considered to be the dot class (you know slow af, no finisher) , they should have more impact in the game.

In my opinion dots need a diffrent ballance approach.

1. Melee dots should be stronger and cheaper than ranged dots, you take a risk when you aply them, that is true in pvp and pve.
2. Class dots should be stronger than the generic dots. Classes that have acces to more dots than other classes should have an advantage against classes who just slot generic dots (class identety)
3. dots should be cheaper in general. Curently they cost way to much and do way to less

TheBonesXXX

StShoot wrote: »

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

DoTs dumb down combat. I'd rather them address the tank meta in a way that doesn't further reduce the skill ceiling.

yeah but since we have a classspec in this game that is considered to be the dot class (you know slow af, no finisher) , they should have more impact in the game.

In my opinion dots need a diffrent ballance approach.

1. Melee dots should be stronger and cheaper than ranged dots, you take a risk when you aply them, that is true in pvp and pve.
2. Class dots should be stronger than the generic dots. Classes that have acces to more dots than other classes should have an advantage against classes who just slot generic dots (class identety)
3. dots should be cheaper in general. Curently they cost way to much and do way to less

I think Bleeds should act slightly different than all the other dots.

usmcjdking

NobleX35 wrote: »

Dots play an integral role in all settings of the game. One of the primary functions of dots in pvp is to provide additional pressure between burst combinations, and act as a counter to HoTs. Additionally dots help counter the tank meta through additional pressure so that the targets health can reach a sufficient level where a burst combo can more reliably finish off the target.

We are currently experiencing one of the worst tank metas in the history of the game, and one of the primary reasons is due to the fact that dots simply do not provide enough pressure at the moment. This becomes obviously apparent when many builds for certain dot based classes (stamdk) don’t even to bother investing many points (if any) into dot damage.

The base standard for dot damage created in scalebreaker was 2.5x damage of a traditional spammable. The issue is that 2.5x was clearly too high, so the standard was nerfed down to 1.33x (iirc). 1.33x damage was obviously too low, so the standard was buffed to 1.5x; however, even 1.5x is still too low.

With all that said, raising the dot standard to 1.75x might due the trick and bring dots back to a reasonable level where they can better perform their intended function.

This solution will not work anymore than it has before. Not saying that DOTs aren't important, I actually agree with raising DOT damage by a reasonable margin, but not for the intended purpose of burning down tanks more effectively. Whilst that might be your intended purpose, the actual outcome is that people will simply build tankier because the host of 24-25khp MA/LA builds out there are disproportionately affected by DOT damage increases.

If the goal is to reduce tankiness, then target things which specifically allow for tankiness.

MincVinyl

Again the issue everyone seems to have is the Tank meta, personally I do not seem to feel the same way since I have always played a burst style build instead of a burn style. Now when it comes to something like burn/suffocation mechanics you must be careful with what you ask. If people ask for blanket buffs to kill tanks you will end up just making it even easier to kill average/squishy targets.

We saw this with the old bleeds, the intent of bleeds was to be able to kill targets regardless of their resists. So essentially it was just true damage that didn't care how tanky something was, it would always have the same effect on the target. When dots got buffed, then you had so many people who were not tanks have no possible counterplay to the dot damage and would essentially lose in character select. Any time a group would hit an average player, that player would have within that one dot rotation to purge before they die.

I am not saying we cannot buff dot damage, what I am saying is that you must think of ways to not let dogpiles from abusing suffocation methods and make sure that if your method to kill tanks does not work to the same degree to kill squishy people.

---

example from my earlier post:

To stop dots being abused by larger groups against a solo player: make dots not stack on each other> then raise damage standard (this will reduce server calculations as well, and helps bring back solo/small scale pvp)

To make a dot mechanic that hurts tanks and not squishy/average players, you have options to
-make defile scale with the player's hps instead of a flat percent
-make bleeds scale off resists (this balanced means an average player should be getting hit with the dot standard)

---

The cast times on ults also are causing issues with tanky players. When burst windows are artificially spread out and reduce the skill gap in the game, now you have players easily able to counter burst.(discussion for one of the 50+ cast time threads though)

TheBonesXXX

MincVinyl wrote: »

Again the issue everyone seems to have is the Tank meta, personally I do not seem to feel the same way since I have always played a burst style build instead of a burn style. Now when it comes to something like burn/suffocation mechanics you must be careful with what you ask. If people ask for blanket buffs to kill tanks you will end up just making it even easier to kill average/squishy targets.

We saw this with the old bleeds, the intent of bleeds was to be able to kill targets regardless of their resists. So essentially it was just true damage that didn't care how tanky something was, it would always have the same effect on the target. When dots got buffed, then you had so many people who were not tanks have no possible counterplay to the dot damage and would essentially lose in character select. Any time a group would hit an average player, that player would have within that one dot rotation to purge before they die.

I am not saying we cannot buff dot damage, what I am saying is that you must think of ways to not let dogpiles from abusing suffocation methods and make sure that if your method to kill tanks does not work to the same degree to kill squishy people.

---

example from my earlier post:

To stop dots being abused by larger groups against a solo player: make dots not stack on each other> then raise damage standard (this will reduce server calculations as well, and helps bring back solo/small scale pvp)

To make a dot mechanic that hurts tanks and not squishy/average players, you have options to
-make defile scale with the player's hps instead of a flat percent
-make bleeds scale off resists (this balanced means an average player should be getting hit with the dot standard)

---

The cast times on ults also are causing issues with tanky players. When burst windows are artificially spread out and reduce the skill gap in the game, now you have players easily able to counter burst.(discussion for one of the 50+ cast time threads though)

I don't disagree, I play pressure builds. I think dots support pressure builds more so burst windows.
.
Rapid Strikes/Bloodthirst is the start of the pressure for melee players.

I don't like burst style play at all in ESO.

Dr_Ganknstein

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

Again the issue everyone seems to have is the Tank meta, personally I do not seem to feel the same way since I have always played a burst style build instead of a burn style. Now when it comes to something like burn/suffocation mechanics you must be careful with what you ask. If people ask for blanket buffs to kill tanks you will end up just making it even easier to kill average/squishy targets.

We saw this with the old bleeds, the intent of bleeds was to be able to kill targets regardless of their resists. So essentially it was just true damage that didn't care how tanky something was, it would always have the same effect on the target. When dots got buffed, then you had so many people who were not tanks have no possible counterplay to the dot damage and would essentially lose in character select. Any time a group would hit an average player, that player would have within that one dot rotation to purge before they die.

I am not saying we cannot buff dot damage, what I am saying is that you must think of ways to not let dogpiles from abusing suffocation methods and make sure that if your method to kill tanks does not work to the same degree to kill squishy people.

---

example from my earlier post:

To stop dots being abused by larger groups against a solo player: make dots not stack on each other> then raise damage standard (this will reduce server calculations as well, and helps bring back solo/small scale pvp)

To make a dot mechanic that hurts tanks and not squishy/average players, you have options to
-make defile scale with the player's hps instead of a flat percent
-make bleeds scale off resists (this balanced means an average player should be getting hit with the dot standard)

---

The cast times on ults also are causing issues with tanky players. When burst windows are artificially spread out and reduce the skill gap in the game, now you have players easily able to counter burst.(discussion for one of the 50+ cast time threads though)

I don't disagree, I play pressure builds. I think dots support pressure builds more so burst windows.
.
Rapid Strikes/Bloodthirst is the start of the pressure for melee players.

I don't like burst style play at all in ESO.

I agree. Like 80% of 1vsX videos is a guy surviving long enough to land onslaught and executioner.

TheBonesXXX

Icky wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

Again the issue everyone seems to have is the Tank meta, personally I do not seem to feel the same way since I have always played a burst style build instead of a burn style. Now when it comes to something like burn/suffocation mechanics you must be careful with what you ask. If people ask for blanket buffs to kill tanks you will end up just making it even easier to kill average/squishy targets.

We saw this with the old bleeds, the intent of bleeds was to be able to kill targets regardless of their resists. So essentially it was just true damage that didn't care how tanky something was, it would always have the same effect on the target. When dots got buffed, then you had so many people who were not tanks have no possible counterplay to the dot damage and would essentially lose in character select. Any time a group would hit an average player, that player would have within that one dot rotation to purge before they die.

I am not saying we cannot buff dot damage, what I am saying is that you must think of ways to not let dogpiles from abusing suffocation methods and make sure that if your method to kill tanks does not work to the same degree to kill squishy people.

---

example from my earlier post:

To stop dots being abused by larger groups against a solo player: make dots not stack on each other> then raise damage standard (this will reduce server calculations as well, and helps bring back solo/small scale pvp)

To make a dot mechanic that hurts tanks and not squishy/average players, you have options to
-make defile scale with the player's hps instead of a flat percent
-make bleeds scale off resists (this balanced means an average player should be getting hit with the dot standard)

---

The cast times on ults also are causing issues with tanky players. When burst windows are artificially spread out and reduce the skill gap in the game, now you have players easily able to counter burst.(discussion for one of the 50+ cast time threads though)

I don't disagree, I play pressure builds. I think dots support pressure builds more so burst windows.
.
Rapid Strikes/Bloodthirst is the start of the pressure for melee players.

I don't like burst style play at all in ESO.

I agree. Like 80% of 1vsX videos is a guy surviving long enough to land onslaught and executioner.

It's pugstomping, it's not impressive. Onlsaught + X + Executioner is easy.

NobleX35

usmcjdking wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Dots play an integral role in all settings of the game. One of the primary functions of dots in pvp is to provide additional pressure between burst combinations, and act as a counter to HoTs. Additionally dots help counter the tank meta through additional pressure so that the targets health can reach a sufficient level where a burst combo can more reliably finish off the target.

We are currently experiencing one of the worst tank metas in the history of the game, and one of the primary reasons is due to the fact that dots simply do not provide enough pressure at the moment. This becomes obviously apparent when many builds for certain dot based classes (stamdk) don’t even to bother investing many points (if any) into dot damage.

The base standard for dot damage created in scalebreaker was 2.5x damage of a traditional spammable. The issue is that 2.5x was clearly too high, so the standard was nerfed down to 1.33x (iirc). 1.33x damage was obviously too low, so the standard was buffed to 1.5x; however, even 1.5x is still too low.

With all that said, raising the dot standard to 1.75x might due the trick and bring dots back to a reasonable level where they can better perform their intended function.

This solution will not work anymore than it has before. Not saying that DOTs aren't important, I actually agree with raising DOT damage by a reasonable margin, but not for the intended purpose of burning down tanks more effectively. Whilst that might be your intended purpose, the actual outcome is that people will simply build tankier because the host of 24-25khp MA/LA builds out there are disproportionately affected by DOT damage increases.

If the goal is to reduce tankiness, then target things which specifically allow for tankiness.

Burning down tanks more effectively is only part of the reason. Again, consistent pressure plays an important element in combating player tankiness. Why do you suppose the tank meta is probably the worst it has ever been?

Low dot damage, few options for major defile, and of course...cast times...are all significant contributors to the tank meta.

People cant just keep saying “players will just build tankier,” because eventually diminshing returns kick in and the player starts to lack in other essential areas.

Dots were overpowered in scalebreaker, but with that said, the tank meta was at its weakest point in years. I’m not advocating to return to scalebreaker, my proposal was to return to a state roughly equivalent to elsweyr.

The tank meta has almost always been an issue; however, it was not as ridiculous when the aforementioned reasons were not contributing factors.

ecru

NobleX35 wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

PvP StamDK here... I don't run Vclaw. Most times Noxious, dswing, part heavy into a leap is enough to kill most targets. I kind of miss the attrition style dot builds but burst is king and dots are so weak you're never going to kill anything even with 4-6 dots ticking on a target. Healing is too outrageous right now in pvp for dots to be a thing.

Its not so much that healing is too outrageous at the moment (excluding cross healing and group healing) as it is that dots are simply too weak. If dots were stronger, then healing wouldnt appear to be as much of a problem.

In a side note, cross healing and group healing is definitely too strong at the moment and that should be addressed as well, thought that is not directly related to dots/pressure.

It's definitely both. Two people with a resto staff is basically equal to having two vigors ticking on them almost 100% of the time (if they're competent) because of RR. RR is probably the biggest counter to dots next to purges. Allowing a heal as strong as vigor (which is really strong now) to be placed on both yourself and your teammates over and over again was a really bad idea. One cast of RR has a ~20k tooltip which is enough to mitigate the damage of ~3 dots, if there's a second RR ticking on your target, forget ever moving their health with any amount of dots. RR itself really should only work on the person casting it, just like Vigor.

exeeter702 wrote: »

*** man, I just want to play a shadow priest / affliction lock, madness inquisitor archetype caster that deals with dot application, burst setup and stealing health and can effectively kite on occasion. A tried and true mmo class archetype that has existed for nearly 2 decades that I have always enjoyed playing as.

But in eso it's a *** absolute Incompatable playstyle in pvp since almost the games entire life span. Either they introduce sets that make it possible and everyone and their mother uses them until they get nerfed or they are worthless from the very start and never see any form of viable play.

Everyone is so obsessed with particular execution where each and every button pressed has to be elaborately combed into something else and if ever the scenario exists where passive damage application is possible, people cry for nerfs as if zos killed their dog.

There is nothing wrong in practice with dots regardless of range, being a viable form of pressure. The issue is ESOs uniformal policy of skills requiring being balanced around a single GCD (purge) , targeting (small scale no prob, larger groups and your basically playing wack a mole with zero yeild), and the fact that most options outside of class skill lines are universally available to all making particular balance of dot builds almost impossible.

@exeeter702, I actually agree with you on this, despite suggesting ranged dots were too strong/shouldn't be equal to melee dots. I played Warlock in Rift which was solely dot based, with channels that increased in damage based on the amount of dots on your target, and Shaman which was dot focused melee, so dot stacking has always kind of been my thing. Unfortunately in ESO the combat mechanics don't lend itself towards all ranged having access to powerful dots outside of class abilities because almost all dps have access to significant burst damage (crystal frags, shalks, blastbones, purifying light/sweep, etc). There are some exceptions, like StamDK, which is why StamDK seems like the optimal class to have good stacking dots. ZOS giving really strong stacking dots (in some cases, stronger than melee) to all mag which also has access to burst was a really weird decision that didn't make a lot of sense, and lead to way too much passive pressure being available to classes that also had access to other forms of damage.

There also weren't (and still aren't) any real dot focused mechanics, like an increase in damage based on x amount of class dots on your target, but that would be something I'd like to see. With no real synergy between dots and class abilities (for example, the buffed flame reach, entropy, and soul trap) it felt like a thoughtless change in which the only goal was to "make dots good, I guess", regardless of anything else. MagDK and StamDK would be good candidates to implement some real synergy with class dots/abilities IMO. Also, giving them some way to bypass purges/making their dots unpurgeable would also be a good addition to make their dots feel more useful/worthwhile.

NobleX35

ecru wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

PvP StamDK here... I don't run Vclaw. Most times Noxious, dswing, part heavy into a leap is enough to kill most targets. I kind of miss the attrition style dot builds but burst is king and dots are so weak you're never going to kill anything even with 4-6 dots ticking on a target. Healing is too outrageous right now in pvp for dots to be a thing.

Its not so much that healing is too outrageous at the moment (excluding cross healing and group healing) as it is that dots are simply too weak. If dots were stronger, then healing wouldnt appear to be as much of a problem.

In a side note, cross healing and group healing is definitely too strong at the moment and that should be addressed as well, thought that is not directly related to dots/pressure.

It's definitely both. Two people with a resto staff is basically equal to having two vigors ticking on them almost 100% of the time (if they're competent) because of RR. RR is probably the biggest counter to dots next to purges. Allowing a heal as strong as vigor (which is really strong now) to be placed on both yourself and your teammates over and over again was a really bad idea. One cast of RR has a ~20k tooltip which is enough to mitigate the damage of ~3 dots, if there's a second RR ticking on your target, forget ever moving their health with any amount of dots. RR itself really should only work on the person casting it, just like Vigor.

RR would fall under "excluding cross healing and group healing"...

TheBonesXXX

I think Bleeds would function better if they ticket every half second and were in shorter duration.

pieratsos

NobleX35 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Dots play an integral role in all settings of the game. One of the primary functions of dots in pvp is to provide additional pressure between burst combinations, and act as a counter to HoTs. Additionally dots help counter the tank meta through additional pressure so that the targets health can reach a sufficient level where a burst combo can more reliably finish off the target.

We are currently experiencing one of the worst tank metas in the history of the game, and one of the primary reasons is due to the fact that dots simply do not provide enough pressure at the moment. This becomes obviously apparent when many builds for certain dot based classes (stamdk) don’t even to bother investing many points (if any) into dot damage.

The base standard for dot damage created in scalebreaker was 2.5x damage of a traditional spammable. The issue is that 2.5x was clearly too high, so the standard was nerfed down to 1.33x (iirc). 1.33x damage was obviously too low, so the standard was buffed to 1.5x; however, even 1.5x is still too low.

With all that said, raising the dot standard to 1.75x might due the trick and bring dots back to a reasonable level where they can better perform their intended function.

This solution will not work anymore than it has before. Not saying that DOTs aren't important, I actually agree with raising DOT damage by a reasonable margin, but not for the intended purpose of burning down tanks more effectively. Whilst that might be your intended purpose, the actual outcome is that people will simply build tankier because the host of 24-25khp MA/LA builds out there are disproportionately affected by DOT damage increases.

If the goal is to reduce tankiness, then target things which specifically allow for tankiness.

Burning down tanks more effectively is only part of the reason. Again, consistent pressure plays an important element in combating player tankiness. Why do you suppose the tank meta is probably the worst it has ever been?

Low dot damage, few options for major defile, and of course...cast times...are all significant contributors to the tank meta.

People cant just keep saying “players will just build tankier,” because eventually diminshing returns kick in and the player starts to lack in other essential areas.

Dots were overpowered in scalebreaker, but with that said, the tank meta was at its weakest point in years. I’m not advocating to return to scalebreaker, my proposal was to return to a state roughly equivalent to elsweyr.

The tank meta has almost always been an issue; however, it was not as ridiculous when the aforementioned reasons were not contributing factors.

You can still say that people will just build tanker. It's actually easier than it has ever been before to build a tank and next patch procs are making a return which benefits tanks even more.

ArcVelarian

And at least for DK DoTs if they are cleansed they should then "explode", dealing their remaining damage and spreading DoTs to nearby players.

Altyrann

DoTs could definitely use a nudge to get a clearer gap over spammable abilities. As well as pure damage, interesting secondary effects would help make them more useful again.

Personally I preferred having DoTs meaningfully stronger because you were at least rewarded for managing them rather than just stacking passives.

TheBonesXXX

I

Altyrann wrote: »

DoTs could definitely use a nudge to get a clearer gap over spammable abilities. As well as pure damage, interesting secondary effects would help make them more useful again.

Personally I preferred having DoTs meaningfully stronger because you were at least rewarded for managing them rather than just stacking passives.

I think they definitely need a secondary effect.

Altyrann

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

I

Altyrann wrote: »

DoTs could definitely use a nudge to get a clearer gap over spammable abilities. As well as pure damage, interesting secondary effects would help make them more useful again.

Personally I preferred having DoTs meaningfully stronger because you were at least rewarded for managing them rather than just stacking passives.

I think they definitely need a secondary effect.

This is particularly true where the alternative to slotting a DoT is adding an unused ability to the bar just to get a passive buff (fighters guild, inner light etc.)

TheBonesXXX

Altyrann wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

I

Altyrann wrote: »

DoTs could definitely use a nudge to get a clearer gap over spammable abilities. As well as pure damage, interesting secondary effects would help make them more useful again.

Personally I preferred having DoTs meaningfully stronger because you were at least rewarded for managing them rather than just stacking passives.

I think they definitely need a secondary effect.

This is particularly true where the alternative to slotting a DoT is adding an unused ability to the bar just to get a passive buff (fighters guild, inner light etc.)

I just think Bleeds need to function different from other dots. Maybe tick every .5 seconds or .25 seconds, but that'd eat the hamsters.

Ragnarock41

Dots are in a pathetic state. Not only they do terrible damage but their cost efficiency is so HORRIBLE that you're better off using abilities that buff you instead, such as camo hunter.

Its no secret that cloak absorbs dot damage and purges are more common than ever, in such meta they increased dot costs and decreased their damage by so friggin much.

It killed the game for a lot of people and dumbed down the combat to tank till you have burst. Cause without dots there is really no pressure.

Xvorg

exeeter702 wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

*** man, I just want to play a shadow priest / affliction lock, madness inquisitor archetype caster that deals with dot application, burst setup and stealing health and can effectively kite on occasion. A tried and true mmo class archetype that has existed for nearly 2 decades that I have always enjoyed playing as.

But in eso it's a *** absolute Incompatable playstyle in pvp since almost the games entire life span. Either they introduce sets that make it possible and everyone and their mother uses them until they get nerfed or they are worthless from the very start and never see any form of viable play.

Everyone is so obsessed with particular execution where each and every button pressed has to be elaborately combed into something else and if ever the scenario exists where passive damage application is possible, people cry for nerfs as if zos killed their dog.

There is nothing wrong in practice with dots regardless of range, being a viable form of pressure. The issue is ESOs uniformal policy of skills requiring being balanced around a single GCD (purge) , targeting (small scale no prob, larger groups and your basically playing wack a mole with zero yeild), and the fact that most options outside of class skill lines are universally available to all making particular balance of dot builds almost impossible.

actually back in the early days this playstyle was directly embedded in the magblades toolkit. Back when the bloodmages and saptanks were still a thing. Since 2.0 they continually stripped elemets of this playstyle from the class, loosing vital passives, healing, kiteability and resource management up to the point we are now, where nightblade are completly useless outside of ganking and bombing. Back in the days noone was complaining about bloodmages standing their ground and witheling away opponents, ironically everyone is whining about nightblades now that they are pigeonholed into cloak playstyles...

SMH

Ive been here since day 1. It was not. There are issues with the play style at the fundamental level of this games combat system. In large part due to gap closers and space creators and how CC breaking works. Early magblade had access to one of the stronger single target dots in the game in cripple at the time, from a tooltip standpoint, but you were still beholden to cloak at that time because it was impossible to allow ranged pressure to build while you interfacing with merc resolve procs because kiting was borderline impossible. Magblades came close and its why to this day i have roughly 10k hours clocked on that single spec alone. It has never truly achieved the type of archetypal play style.

The stand your ground healing based magblade ranged build only really came to life WAY later when morrowind launched. But that is still not really the play style i was truly looking for. Most of my time in ESO has been me settling for what i can get out of that with magblade, which eventually resulted in me healing on magblade even before 1T.

I'm quite sure I saw sap tanks before 1T... maybe during Orsinum... in fact I think SapTanks was one of the recomended specs for VMSA

Ragnarock41

Xvorg wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

*** man, I just want to play a shadow priest / affliction lock, madness inquisitor archetype caster that deals with dot application, burst setup and stealing health and can effectively kite on occasion. A tried and true mmo class archetype that has existed for nearly 2 decades that I have always enjoyed playing as.

But in eso it's a *** absolute Incompatable playstyle in pvp since almost the games entire life span. Either they introduce sets that make it possible and everyone and their mother uses them until they get nerfed or they are worthless from the very start and never see any form of viable play.

Everyone is so obsessed with particular execution where each and every button pressed has to be elaborately combed into something else and if ever the scenario exists where passive damage application is possible, people cry for nerfs as if zos killed their dog.

There is nothing wrong in practice with dots regardless of range, being a viable form of pressure. The issue is ESOs uniformal policy of skills requiring being balanced around a single GCD (purge) , targeting (small scale no prob, larger groups and your basically playing wack a mole with zero yeild), and the fact that most options outside of class skill lines are universally available to all making particular balance of dot builds almost impossible.

actually back in the early days this playstyle was directly embedded in the magblades toolkit. Back when the bloodmages and saptanks were still a thing. Since 2.0 they continually stripped elemets of this playstyle from the class, loosing vital passives, healing, kiteability and resource management up to the point we are now, where nightblade are completly useless outside of ganking and bombing. Back in the days noone was complaining about bloodmages standing their ground and witheling away opponents, ironically everyone is whining about nightblades now that they are pigeonholed into cloak playstyles...

SMH

Ive been here since day 1. It was not. There are issues with the play style at the fundamental level of this games combat system. In large part due to gap closers and space creators and how CC breaking works. Early magblade had access to one of the stronger single target dots in the game in cripple at the time, from a tooltip standpoint, but you were still beholden to cloak at that time because it was impossible to allow ranged pressure to build while you interfacing with merc resolve procs because kiting was borderline impossible. Magblades came close and its why to this day i have roughly 10k hours clocked on that single spec alone. It has never truly achieved the type of archetypal play style.

The stand your ground healing based magblade ranged build only really came to life WAY later when morrowind launched. But that is still not really the play style i was truly looking for. Most of my time in ESO has been me settling for what i can get out of that with magblade, which eventually resulted in me healing on magblade even before 1T.

I'm quite sure I saw sap tanks before 1T... maybe during Orsinum... in fact I think SapTanks was one of the recomended specs for VMSA

Ah, good old days where I did vMSA with heavy armor builds.

CynicK

I think an increase of 5% or 10% would not harm anyone and they could watch how it works, i am not sure which is the idea of the debs about how dots are supposed to work but i guess they should do more damage than lets say you used an spamable all the time for that thing of using different skills and a rotation and all, and I saw a post that showed you did more damage using a spamable all the time I have to say that I still use them in for the extra damage I think i get, but the post showed it was not like that, but mostly for the utility every dot has an special effect and it is worth using for me in some cases and classes, the minor vulnerability of swarm, poison injection for the execute multiplier but it would be cool if they added to your dps too.

The only one I think works well and very good option to use damage wise is poisonous claw, i can clearly see as the time passes how the other player's health goes lower and lower even with healing the more time that passes in any case it neutralizes a lot of healing so it is a great help.

As Ragnarock41 says except in some cases i also think you are better off putting things that buff you than equipping most dots right now.

And they should fix that when you are cloaked you do not get dot damage I also have a NB and I would find totally fiar that i could die while cloaked and i especially think of those magicka NB that attack and go invisible wait 6s to stun you again and can ignore all the dots you are able to put on them before they cloak, it would be more realistic i think if they died cloaked or had to hide or flee.

Skysenzz

Imo dots shouldn't be following a standard, their damage should depend on their duration/range/hits, this is why the dot meta was terrible. Dots that were ranged+undodgeable had same tooltips as regular melee dots, some being better than dk's dots...

TheBonesXXX

Skysenzz wrote: »

Imo dots shouldn't be following a standard, their damage should depend on their duration/range/hits, this is why the dot meta was terrible. Dots that were ranged+undodgeable had same tooltips as regular melee dots, some being better than dk's dots...

I think all dots should have their own secondary function.

TheBonesXXX

Xvorg wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

*** man, I just want to play a shadow priest / affliction lock, madness inquisitor archetype caster that deals with dot application, burst setup and stealing health and can effectively kite on occasion. A tried and true mmo class archetype that has existed for nearly 2 decades that I have always enjoyed playing as.

But in eso it's a *** absolute Incompatable playstyle in pvp since almost the games entire life span. Either they introduce sets that make it possible and everyone and their mother uses them until they get nerfed or they are worthless from the very start and never see any form of viable play.

Everyone is so obsessed with particular execution where each and every button pressed has to be elaborately combed into something else and if ever the scenario exists where passive damage application is possible, people cry for nerfs as if zos killed their dog.

There is nothing wrong in practice with dots regardless of range, being a viable form of pressure. The issue is ESOs uniformal policy of skills requiring being balanced around a single GCD (purge) , targeting (small scale no prob, larger groups and your basically playing wack a mole with zero yeild), and the fact that most options outside of class skill lines are universally available to all making particular balance of dot builds almost impossible.

actually back in the early days this playstyle was directly embedded in the magblades toolkit. Back when the bloodmages and saptanks were still a thing. Since 2.0 they continually stripped elemets of this playstyle from the class, loosing vital passives, healing, kiteability and resource management up to the point we are now, where nightblade are completly useless outside of ganking and bombing. Back in the days noone was complaining about bloodmages standing their ground and witheling away opponents, ironically everyone is whining about nightblades now that they are pigeonholed into cloak playstyles...

SMH

Ive been here since day 1. It was not. There are issues with the play style at the fundamental level of this games combat system. In large part due to gap closers and space creators and how CC breaking works. Early magblade had access to one of the stronger single target dots in the game in cripple at the time, from a tooltip standpoint, but you were still beholden to cloak at that time because it was impossible to allow ranged pressure to build while you interfacing with merc resolve procs because kiting was borderline impossible. Magblades came close and its why to this day i have roughly 10k hours clocked on that single spec alone. It has never truly achieved the type of archetypal play style.

The stand your ground healing based magblade ranged build only really came to life WAY later when morrowind launched. But that is still not really the play style i was truly looking for. Most of my time in ESO has been me settling for what i can get out of that with magblade, which eventually resulted in me healing on magblade even before 1T.

I'm quite sure I saw sap tanks before 1T... maybe during Orsinum... in fact I think SapTanks was one of the recomended specs for VMSA

I saw sap tanks before IC.

MincVinyl

Yeah sap tanks aren't really a thing anymore, and i doubt they will be. The current game and playerbase seems to lean towards a simple passive style of defense instead of the old school active style. Id say recently the last form of active defense has died out, which was shield stacking mag sorc. It has always been a trend where really good players can make full use of an active style of defense, which leads to lesser players to complain about something like shields claiming they are too strong. Which eventually leads to nerfs, and players all being funneled into the same"what is the bis meta setup".

exeeter702

Xvorg wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

*** man, I just want to play a shadow priest / affliction lock, madness inquisitor archetype caster that deals with dot application, burst setup and stealing health and can effectively kite on occasion. A tried and true mmo class archetype that has existed for nearly 2 decades that I have always enjoyed playing as.

But in eso it's a *** absolute Incompatable playstyle in pvp since almost the games entire life span. Either they introduce sets that make it possible and everyone and their mother uses them until they get nerfed or they are worthless from the very start and never see any form of viable play.

Everyone is so obsessed with particular execution where each and every button pressed has to be elaborately combed into something else and if ever the scenario exists where passive damage application is possible, people cry for nerfs as if zos killed their dog.

There is nothing wrong in practice with dots regardless of range, being a viable form of pressure. The issue is ESOs uniformal policy of skills requiring being balanced around a single GCD (purge) , targeting (small scale no prob, larger groups and your basically playing wack a mole with zero yeild), and the fact that most options outside of class skill lines are universally available to all making particular balance of dot builds almost impossible.

actually back in the early days this playstyle was directly embedded in the magblades toolkit. Back when the bloodmages and saptanks were still a thing. Since 2.0 they continually stripped elemets of this playstyle from the class, loosing vital passives, healing, kiteability and resource management up to the point we are now, where nightblade are completly useless outside of ganking and bombing. Back in the days noone was complaining about bloodmages standing their ground and witheling away opponents, ironically everyone is whining about nightblades now that they are pigeonholed into cloak playstyles...

SMH

Ive been here since day 1. It was not. There are issues with the play style at the fundamental level of this games combat system. In large part due to gap closers and space creators and how CC breaking works. Early magblade had access to one of the stronger single target dots in the game in cripple at the time, from a tooltip standpoint, but you were still beholden to cloak at that time because it was impossible to allow ranged pressure to build while you interfacing with merc resolve procs because kiting was borderline impossible. Magblades came close and its why to this day i have roughly 10k hours clocked on that single spec alone. It has never truly achieved the type of archetypal play style.

The stand your ground healing based magblade ranged build only really came to life WAY later when morrowind launched. But that is still not really the play style i was truly looking for. Most of my time in ESO has been me settling for what i can get out of that with magblade, which eventually resulted in me healing on magblade even before 1T.

I'm quite sure I saw sap tanks before 1T... maybe during Orsinum... in fact I think SapTanks was one of the recomended specs for VMSA

Sap tanks didnt kill anything in pvp. That wasnt the type of magblade i was referring to. I was referring to early wizard riposte transmutation brawlers that actually processed lethal in both cp and no cp.

calikush51

Dots aren't spammables, get over it. No change needed they are fine as is.