Raise the DoT Standard

TheBonesXXX

IronWooshu wrote: »

Classes with burst damage shouldnt get increased DoT's, no way should they be able to do insane burst while applying constant pressure so IMO DoT's are fine as they are. They are already more buffed more than they were before.

If anyone remembers they were over buffed then appropriately nerfed but still stronger then before they were over buffed.

DoTs aren't the only form of pressure. Necros last passive is literally 15% increased dot damage for tethers and those take skill to land.

So I disagree with you, 8k 30k resistances and 40k health is the prob.

xylena

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Pressure builds hardcounter tanky burst builds, that's why I'm constantly harping on making rapid strikes/Bloodthirst usable in PvP. Two years ago I had a build that just shredded people, death by a thousand cuts. It was just relentless.

Flurry needs help badly. Most of its damage and all of its secondary morph effects and tertiary proc effects (vMA DW) are tied to landing only the final hit, making the first 3 hits largely meaningless, and harshly punishing the player for missing that slow final stab. The animation and sound effects play whether you're landing your hits or not, and it's very easy to simply move out of its range. They've addressed similar problems with Jabs, why not do the same for Flurry?

I'd like to specifically see a buff to Flurry in the form of anti-block counterplay, like make Flurry drain additional Stam from a blocking target. In its current state, the player aggressively attacking with Flurry will usually run out of resources long before the player holding block on SnB, which is completely backwards. It's another example of how the Tank Meta in general feels bad because it gives all the initiative and agency to the player stalling, not the player trying to win.

TheBonesXXX

xylena wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Pressure builds hardcounter tanky burst builds, that's why I'm constantly harping on making rapid strikes/Bloodthirst usable in PvP. Two years ago I had a build that just shredded people, death by a thousand cuts. It was just relentless.

Flurry needs help badly. Most of its damage and all of its secondary morph effects and tertiary proc effects (vMA DW) are tied to landing only the final hit, making the first 3 hits largely meaningless, and harshly punishing the player for missing that slow final stab. The animation and sound effects play whether you're landing your hits or not, and it's very easy to simply move out of its range. They've addressed similar problems with Jabs, why not do the same for Flurry?

I'd like to specifically see a buff to Flurry in the form of anti-block counterplay, like make Flurry drain additional Stam from a blocking target. In its current state, the player aggressively attacking with Flurry will usually run out of resources long before the player holding block on SnB, which is completely backwards. It's another example of how the Tank Meta in general feels bad because it gives all the initiative and agency to the player stalling, not the player trying to win.

Can't disagree there. It's pathetic the meta we are in, DW should be choking people out of their resources if they're not intelligent about it.

Half the DW toolkit is gone in a purge, it sucks.

Nyladreas

Just create conditionals that increase dot damage on tankier targets by anywhere from 10% to full 100%. Example: having 25k resistances pumps dot damage up to 150% of base damage. Having 30k+ pumps it to 200% (a 100% increase).

Problem F-ing solved. Afraid of non-resist mitigation? Well base the conditional based on total % of mitigated damage regardless of ARMOR. So *** like major protection cannot do ridiculous things when used on already high armor build.

Also add block fatigue - increase cost of blocking in Pvp in a form of short stacking debuff = eg. Every successive block increases the cost of blocking by 2.5% up to maximum of 50% for the next 6 seconds.


BOOM - TANK META DEAD. And I've been saying this for literal MONTHS. -.-

PS: Purge in PvP should either get fatigue or remove max 1-2 effects. So Templars don't get a free pass on the DoTs again and keep being unkillable tanks. Or something else to even out the odds fair and square. Suggestions welcome.

Stibbons

All dot damage should go through armor or something like that. "BOOM - TANK META DEAD."

Nyladreas

Stibbons wrote: »

All dot damage should go through armor or something like that. "BOOM - TANK META DEAD."

That won't help cause it will shred low armor people to pieces along with direct damage. Hence why I suggested the idea above.

Stibbons

Well maybe tone down HEAVY ARMOR META damage on stamina.

TheBonesXXX

Stibbons wrote: »

All dot damage should go through armor or something like that. "BOOM - TANK META DEAD."

Bleeds went through armor. People cried to get it nerfed.

Nyladreas

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

All dot damage should go through armor or something like that. "BOOM - TANK META DEAD."

Bleeds went through armor. People cried to get it nerfed.

That's why we need a simple system increasing dot damage significantly the more defense you have. EZ PZ.

Feels like I'm speaking alien language whenever I bring the idea up though.

TheBonesXXX

Nyladreas wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

All dot damage should go through armor or something like that. "BOOM - TANK META DEAD."

Bleeds went through armor. People cried to get it nerfed.

That's why we need a simple system increasing dot damage significantly the more defense you have. EZ PZ.

Feels like I'm speaking alien language whenever I bring the idea up though.

And who would you trust to code such a task without Cyro exploding into a million pixels?

ecru

IronWooshu wrote: »

Classes with burst damage shouldnt get increased DoT's, no way should they be able to do insane burst while applying constant pressure so IMO DoT's are fine as they are. They are already more buffed more than they were before.

If anyone remembers they were over buffed then appropriately nerfed but still stronger then before they were over buffed.

Xvorg wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Classes with burst damage shouldnt get increased DoT's, no way should they be able to do insane burst while applying constant pressure so IMO DoT's are fine as they are. They are already more buffed more than they were before.

If anyone remembers they were over buffed then appropriately nerfed but still stronger then before they were over buffed.

didn't you have a fun time during the over buffed DoT patch? Imho it was the funniest patch since... Shadows of the Hist

Dots are the weakest they've ever been. During Elsweyr melee dots and bleeds were in a very good spot and almost no one complained about them. Venomous Claw and Rending Slashes were around a 2-2.25x multiplier, which was a very good spot. The issue with the "DoT patch" was that ZOS buffed ranged dots to be the same strength as melee dots, and then gave magicka access to three very strong ranged dots outside of class skills. Ranged dots should not be as powerful as melee applied dots for very obvious reasons, but they were made equal.

Dots are pretty useless at the moment. They apply almost no pressure and can be out healed quite easily by one cast of vigor or regen, and purges are readily available, with one class having a self and group purge baked into their kit. Turning them into abilities that no one ever wants to slot has been a really bizarre decision that doesn't make any sense to me.

Nyladreas

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Nyladreas wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

All dot damage should go through armor or something like that. "BOOM - TANK META DEAD."

Bleeds went through armor. People cried to get it nerfed.

That's why we need a simple system increasing dot damage significantly the more defense you have. EZ PZ.

Feels like I'm speaking alien language whenever I bring the idea up though.

And who would you trust to code such a task without Cyro exploding into a million pixels?

I understand where you're coming from, but tbh it's not that hard if you code it into Battle Spirit or any other utility so that it is a constant debuff. Just gotta find reasonable thresholds for the conditionals and adjust some gear/attribute numbers accordingly to avoid ridiculous fluctuations. People argue it would cause lag, but this game NEEDS and lacks these backing mechanisms since it's trying to go for no-cooldown fluid combat. There must be set limits of some sort otherwise there will always be either:

a) Broken Builds
b) Broken Playstyles
c) Broken Classes

The same goes for PvP vs PvE skill limitations/functionality. Some skills should straight forward behave differently in PvP, and we know ZOS can do that.

I'm baffled ZOS has yet to figure it out so many years into development and running the game. And these are some of the most basic and simple tools in MMO development.

@TheBonesXXX

juhislihis19

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Pressure builds hardcounter tanky burst builds, that's why I'm constantly harping on making rapid strikes/Bloodthirst usable in PvP. Two years ago I had a build that just shredded people, death by a thousand cuts. It was just relentless.

Flurry needs help badly. Most of its damage and all of its secondary morph effects and tertiary proc effects (vMA DW) are tied to landing only the final hit, making the first 3 hits largely meaningless, and harshly punishing the player for missing that slow final stab. The animation and sound effects play whether you're landing your hits or not, and it's very easy to simply move out of its range. They've addressed similar problems with Jabs, why not do the same for Flurry?

I'd like to specifically see a buff to Flurry in the form of anti-block counterplay, like make Flurry drain additional Stam from a blocking target. In its current state, the player aggressively attacking with Flurry will usually run out of resources long before the player holding block on SnB, which is completely backwards. It's another example of how the Tank Meta in general feels bad because it gives all the initiative and agency to the player stalling, not the player trying to win.

Can't disagree there. It's pathetic the meta we are in, DW should be choking people out of their resources if they're not intelligent about it.

Half the DW toolkit is gone in a purge, it sucks.

Second that. I addressed this in a topic earlier, but to recap:

Flurry is bad, and Rapid Strikers morphs is very underwhelming compared to its healing counterpart.

Blade Cloak, only relevant because of BRP DW.

Hidden Blade, this skill is just a poop-show.

Twin Slashes, quite useless skill with the DoT and Bleed nerf.

Qbiken

I think ZOS should raise DoT damage by 15-20% to make them somewhat competitive/viable again. Potentially bring back the old mechanics of bleed to ignore resistance, or make bleeds to more damage the more resistance or hp they have.

Iskiab

Anyone else sick of hearing, ‘oh but the servers!’ Well then fix the servers, not doing common sense fixes because it might impact game performance is so backwards in so many ways.

TheBonesXXX

Iskiab wrote: »

Anyone else sick of hearing, ‘oh but the servers!’ Well then fix the servers, not doing common sense fixes because it might impact game performance is so backwards in so many ways.

I hate having to include suggestions with code in mind so we can have a playable game.

TheBonesXXX

Nyladreas wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Nyladreas wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

All dot damage should go through armor or something like that. "BOOM - TANK META DEAD."

Bleeds went through armor. People cried to get it nerfed.

That's why we need a simple system increasing dot damage significantly the more defense you have. EZ PZ.

Feels like I'm speaking alien language whenever I bring the idea up though.

And who would you trust to code such a task without Cyro exploding into a million pixels?

I understand where you're coming from, but tbh it's not that hard if you code it into Battle Spirit or any other utility so that it is a constant debuff. Just gotta find reasonable thresholds for the conditionals and adjust some gear/attribute numbers accordingly to avoid ridiculous fluctuations. People argue it would cause lag, but this game NEEDS and lacks these backing mechanisms since it's trying to go for no-cooldown fluid combat. There must be set limits of some sort otherwise there will always be either:

a) Broken Builds
b) Broken Playstyles
c) Broken Classes

The same goes for PvP vs PvE skill limitations/functionality. Some skills should straight forward behave differently in PvP, and we know ZOS can do that.

I'm baffled ZOS has yet to figure it out so many years into development and running the game. And these are some of the most basic and simple tools in MMO development.

@TheBonesXXX

I'm all for good suggestions if they don't kill the hamsters.

JinMori

Bring dots to about elsweyr level and it will be fine.

Xvorg

ecru wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Classes with burst damage shouldnt get increased DoT's, no way should they be able to do insane burst while applying constant pressure so IMO DoT's are fine as they are. They are already more buffed more than they were before.

If anyone remembers they were over buffed then appropriately nerfed but still stronger then before they were over buffed.

Xvorg wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Classes with burst damage shouldnt get increased DoT's, no way should they be able to do insane burst while applying constant pressure so IMO DoT's are fine as they are. They are already more buffed more than they were before.

If anyone remembers they were over buffed then appropriately nerfed but still stronger then before they were over buffed.

didn't you have a fun time during the over buffed DoT patch? Imho it was the funniest patch since... Shadows of the Hist

Dots are the weakest they've ever been. During Elsweyr melee dots and bleeds were in a very good spot and almost no one complained about them. Venomous Claw and Rending Slashes were around a 2-2.25x multiplier, which was a very good spot. The issue with the "DoT patch" was that ZOS buffed ranged dots to be the same strength as melee dots, and then gave magicka access to three very strong ranged dots outside of class skills. Ranged dots should not be as powerful as melee applied dots for very obvious reasons, but they were made equal.

Dots are pretty useless at the moment. They apply almost no pressure and can be out healed quite easily by one cast of vigor or regen, and purges are readily available, with one class having a self and group purge baked into their kit. Turning them into abilities that no one ever wants to slot has been a really bizarre decision that doesn't make any sense to me.

Sure, melee dots must be stronger than ranged DoTs... in that case it was a good idea to tune down ranged dots, or increase dmg on melee DoTs, it was a simple solution.

Instead, ZoS ruined DoTs.

And I agree, Bleeds and Oblivion dmg DoTs (sloads) weren't a problem during Whateversewyr, same as regulat DoTs... but as a (very bad) habit by now, ZoS decided to fix what wasn't broken, when the ony thing that needed to be tuned a little were HoTs

Stibbons

Dots should bypass armor on some extent. Stamina tank meta pvp is out of hand. Or just make hvy armor wearers move slover!!!

Epicasballs

PvP StamDK here... I don't run Vclaw. Most times Noxious, dswing, part heavy into a leap is enough to kill most targets. I kind of miss the attrition style dot builds but burst is king and dots are so weak you're never going to kill anything even with 4-6 dots ticking on a target. Healing is too outrageous right now in pvp for dots to be a thing.

NobleX35

Epicasballs wrote: »

PvP StamDK here... I don't run Vclaw. Most times Noxious, dswing, part heavy into a leap is enough to kill most targets. I kind of miss the attrition style dot builds but burst is king and dots are so weak you're never going to kill anything even with 4-6 dots ticking on a target. Healing is too outrageous right now in pvp for dots to be a thing.

Its not so much that healing is too outrageous at the moment (excluding cross healing and group healing) as it is that dots are simply too weak. If dots were stronger, then healing wouldnt appear to be as much of a problem.

In a side note, cross healing and group healing is definitely too strong at the moment and that should be addressed as well, thought that is not directly related to dots/pressure.

exeeter702

*** man, I just want to play a shadow priest / affliction lock, madness inquisitor archetype caster that deals with dot application, burst setup and stealing health and can effectively kite on occasion. A tried and true mmo class archetype that has existed for nearly 2 decades that I have always enjoyed playing as.

But in eso it's a *** absolute Incompatable playstyle in pvp since almost the games entire life span. Either they introduce sets that make it possible and everyone and their mother uses them until they get nerfed or they are worthless from the very start and never see any form of viable play.

Everyone is so obsessed with particular execution where each and every button pressed has to be elaborately combed into something else and if ever the scenario exists where passive damage application is possible, people cry for nerfs as if zos killed their dog.

There is nothing wrong in practice with dots regardless of range, being a viable form of pressure. The issue is ESOs uniformal policy of skills requiring being balanced around a single GCD (purge) , targeting (small scale no prob, larger groups and your basically playing wack a mole with zero yeild), and the fact that most options outside of class skill lines are universally available to all making particular balance of dot builds almost impossible.

Jeezye

exeeter702 wrote: »

*** man, I just want to play a shadow priest / affliction lock, madness inquisitor archetype caster that deals with dot application, burst setup and stealing health and can effectively kite on occasion. A tried and true mmo class archetype that has existed for nearly 2 decades that I have always enjoyed playing as.

But in eso it's a *** absolute Incompatable playstyle in pvp since almost the games entire life span. Either they introduce sets that make it possible and everyone and their mother uses them until they get nerfed or they are worthless from the very start and never see any form of viable play.

Everyone is so obsessed with particular execution where each and every button pressed has to be elaborately combed into something else and if ever the scenario exists where passive damage application is possible, people cry for nerfs as if zos killed their dog.

There is nothing wrong in practice with dots regardless of range, being a viable form of pressure. The issue is ESOs uniformal policy of skills requiring being balanced around a single GCD (purge) , targeting (small scale no prob, larger groups and your basically playing wack a mole with zero yeild), and the fact that most options outside of class skill lines are universally available to all making particular balance of dot builds almost impossible.

actually back in the early days this playstyle was directly embedded in the magblades toolkit. Back when the bloodmages and saptanks were still a thing. Since 2.0 they continually stripped elemets of this playstyle from the class, loosing vital passives, healing, kiteability and resource management up to the point we are now, where nightblade are completly useless outside of ganking and bombing. Back in the days noone was complaining about bloodmages standing their ground and witheling away opponents, ironically everyone is whining about nightblades now that they are pigeonholed into cloak playstyles...

SMH

exeeter702

Jeezye wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

*** man, I just want to play a shadow priest / affliction lock, madness inquisitor archetype caster that deals with dot application, burst setup and stealing health and can effectively kite on occasion. A tried and true mmo class archetype that has existed for nearly 2 decades that I have always enjoyed playing as.

But in eso it's a *** absolute Incompatable playstyle in pvp since almost the games entire life span. Either they introduce sets that make it possible and everyone and their mother uses them until they get nerfed or they are worthless from the very start and never see any form of viable play.

Everyone is so obsessed with particular execution where each and every button pressed has to be elaborately combed into something else and if ever the scenario exists where passive damage application is possible, people cry for nerfs as if zos killed their dog.

There is nothing wrong in practice with dots regardless of range, being a viable form of pressure. The issue is ESOs uniformal policy of skills requiring being balanced around a single GCD (purge) , targeting (small scale no prob, larger groups and your basically playing wack a mole with zero yeild), and the fact that most options outside of class skill lines are universally available to all making particular balance of dot builds almost impossible.

actually back in the early days this playstyle was directly embedded in the magblades toolkit. Back when the bloodmages and saptanks were still a thing. Since 2.0 they continually stripped elemets of this playstyle from the class, loosing vital passives, healing, kiteability and resource management up to the point we are now, where nightblade are completly useless outside of ganking and bombing. Back in the days noone was complaining about bloodmages standing their ground and witheling away opponents, ironically everyone is whining about nightblades now that they are pigeonholed into cloak playstyles...

SMH

Ive been here since day 1. It was not. There are issues with the play style at the fundamental level of this games combat system. In large part due to gap closers and space creators and how CC breaking works. Early magblade had access to one of the stronger single target dots in the game in cripple at the time, from a tooltip standpoint, but you were still beholden to cloak at that time because it was impossible to allow ranged pressure to build while you interfacing with merc resolve procs because kiting was borderline impossible. Magblades came close and its why to this day i have roughly 10k hours clocked on that single spec alone. It has never truly achieved the type of archetypal play style.

The stand your ground healing based magblade ranged build only really came to life WAY later when morrowind launched. But that is still not really the play style i was truly looking for. Most of my time in ESO has been me settling for what i can get out of that with magblade, which eventually resulted in me healing on magblade even before 1T.

TheBonesXXX

I think the channel time for Rapid/Bloodthirst needs to be reduced to start with.

I think Bleeds need a smaller duration and work like current Rapid Strikes, stronger with each tick.

I also think Bleeds need to tick at .5 seconds.

Squidgaurd

what micvynl said makes sence instead of asking for the retarted hammer to be swing blindly asking for nerfs and buffs why dont you people look at the problem from a deeper viewpoint? why are people so tanky this patch? i remember a few patches ago not many people had 30k health now its standard. why is healing so strong rn? why is purge being given to every new class? why does magden get a free purge every second?

TheBonesXXX

Squidgaurd wrote: »

what micvynl said makes sence instead of asking for the retarted hammer to be swing blindly asking for nerfs and buffs why dont you people look at the problem from a deeper viewpoint? why are people so tanky this patch? i remember a few patches ago not many people had 30k health now its standard. why is healing so strong rn? why is purge being given to every new class? why does magden get a free purge every second?

I'm sure most of the people here understand what brought the tank meta around, it doesn't require introspection to pay attention to ZOS.

Shantu

I'm ok with the current level of damage. What currently makes them useful is their secondary effects, like returning health or resources. Throw in some minor debuffs here and there, but something that makes them useful beyond comparison to a spammable. I think it would be interesting to go that direction as opposed to a rote damage increase. Use would be more tactical in nature and effect more tied in to the build and play style as a whole.

Epicasballs

Idea for a 5 piece crafted set to help DoT builds in pvp.

2) Stamina and Magicka
3) Spell damage and Weapon damage
4) Stam recovery and mag recovery
5) Your damage over time effects cannot be removed from your targets before its duration has ended. You deal 350 more damage with all attacks against targets affected by one of your damage over time effects.

Purge is to widely available now for dot builds to flourish. Purge has no counter.